General Joss question: Does anyone get to stay together ? by AURaptor

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

General Joss question: Does anyone get to stay together ?

POSTED BY: AURAPTOR
UPDATED: Monday, June 11, 2007 10:34
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VIEWED: 2335
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Saturday, June 9, 2007 11:23 AM

America loves a winner!

Not Angel and Buffy. Not Wesly and Fred. Not Angel and Cordy. Not even Wash and Zoe.... you get my point. Sure, folks can pair up, for a while, but eventaully, it all ends very badly. I'm trying to think of a couple which stayed together, where one didn't tragically die, or run off after a fight of some sort and never got back together. I got nothin'. Anyone ?

e-harmony Raptor

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Saturday, June 9, 2007 11:27 AM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

I believe the answer is in your sig.

Quote:
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people.

Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.
A troll's hair is still pointy, even when it's wearing a hat.

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Saturday, June 9, 2007 11:28 AM

JOSSISAGOD

Your Joss quote says it all! Joss doesn't like to see his characters happy, so he creates conflicts to tear them apart.
Edit: Damn your quick fingers 'ROSE!
Fe'nos Tol
JOSSIS(Most Definitely)AGOD

Self appointed Forsaken! Been on the list for a while now!

98% of teens have smoked pot, if you are one of the 2% that haven't, copy this into your signature.
"Look at me, I'm STUPID!" The Doctor.

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Saturday, June 9, 2007 11:34 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
I believe the answer is in your sig.
Quote:
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people.

Had to be a smarty pants, huh? Sheesh!

Should have seen that comin'.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Saturday, June 9, 2007 12:03 PM

GROUNDED

To be fair, this is just the way of dramatic TV.

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Saturday, June 9, 2007 12:26 PM

THESOMNAMBULIST

Well Willow and Kennedy ended up together. It felt a little tagged-on but in terms of the show it did end well for those two characters.

For everyone else involved in a relationship though, it did come to an end. Somewhat obvious and a little overstated when viewing Joss' work as a collection.

It could be considered as one of his weak points.

www.cirqus.com

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Saturday, June 9, 2007 1:10 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
Well Willow and Kennedy ended up together. It felt a little tagged-on but in terms of the show it did end well for those two characters.

For everyone else involved in a relationship though, it did come to an end. Somewhat obvious and a little overstated when viewing Joss' work as a collection.

It could be considered as one of his weak points.

With Joss's track record, does ANYONE get to stay together? From above, I should have added Giles and Jenny Calander, Spike and Drusilla, Spike and (laugh) Harmony...ok, not making my case here, but still. And what of Simon and Kaylee? Should FIREFLY continue , who would have died first in their relationship?

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Saturday, June 9, 2007 4:25 PM

REGINAROADIE

Well, in terms of who would die first in regards to Simon and Kaylee, it's perfectly even odds. On the one hand, you have Simon. One of my film school buddies once told me that he would have wanted to see Simon die in the movie instead of Wash. Simon isn't that popular of a character for some reason. So maybe he would have killed Simon off as both a heroic sacrifice on the characters behalf and as a bone to throw to Simon-haters.

On the other hand, you have Kaylee, the little ball of sunshine on the ship and in the crews lives. Sort of like Fred. And we all know what happened to her. So I think killing Kaylee off would be a huge blow to the crew and create tons of drama.

If we never see a SERENITY sequel or a spin-off series, at the very least Simon and Kaylee will be forever suspended in time as the one "happily ever after" couple in Joss ouvre.

And as for Joss's weak points, I do agree that the random killing off of characters for "dramatic tension" is a weakness on his behalf. That as well as a closed minded existentialism and obvious daddy issues.

**************************************************
"And it starts with a sentence that might last a lifetime, or it all might just go down in flames. If I let you know me, then why would you want me? Each day I don't is a shame. Each day I don't is a great shame."

Loudon Wainwright III - "Strange Weirdos" off the "Knocked Up" soundtrack

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Sunday, June 10, 2007 3:44 AM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
And what of Simon and Kaylee? Should FIREFLY continue , who would have died first in their relationship?

Who says one of them would die? Simon's not that great at saying how he feels, and Kaylee is oversensitive; this is hardly a match made in heaven. I think they would have had a short term of mad, passionate engine room sex, and then Kaylee would do something that threw into stark contrast the social gap between her and Simon, and he would try to delicately teach her, I dunno, which fork to use or something, and she'd get all snippy and offended and they'd fight and Simon would feel bad and make it up to her and she'd accept his apology with mad passionate engine room sex, and it would just spiral out like that until they were totally unhappy, unhealthy, and sick of each other, living in close quarters and working together, and where does that put the crew?
If I thought I had the talent to pull off a long-term and true-to-the-source fanfic, I might try to write it, but it takes a lot of brain power to write at the same wavelength as Joss and Co. and I've always been at my best writing short stories, so I'm not sure how long I could do it. Though I might try, if only to put up a story that was in contrast to the "Simon and Kaylee are madly in love and they're going to get married and have hundreds of fat babies! *squeal!* It's so perfect and sweeeeet!" fics that are out there now.

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Sunday, June 10, 2007 5:05 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
PHOENIXROSE wrote:

Who says one of them would die? Simon's not that great at saying how he feels, and Kaylee is oversensitive; this is hardly a match made in heaven.

First off, it's Joss we're talking about, so of COURSE one of them would have to die. Hell, maybe they both die, in a homage to Romeo and Julliet?

But despite their differences, I'd think there's more at work between Simon and Kaylee. If we continue off of the SERENITY story, River no longer is Simon's big concern. He'll always be her big brother,and look out for her, but since the Miranda story is out, she's "ok". With his kid sister not the " killer woman " that she was before, and having lived through a face to face with Reavers, Simon won't be so blind as to what ( who ) is in front of him and might be looking to the future. Maybe not years down the road, but forward just a bit, with Kaylee smiling and looking right back at him. He might learn to appreciate things which don't simply have a high price tag , and Kaylee might , in return, grow a bit herself ( but not too much ). I think that no matter what, she'd still be Kaylee, after all.

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Sunday, June 10, 2007 5:12 AM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
despite their differences, I'd think there's more at work between Simon and Kaylee.

Why? What evidence is there of that? She lusted after him, got pissy with him, lusted after him again, had a few good moments, got pissy with him, etc etc etc. Even when he got really sweet, facing certain doom and regretting he'd never gotten to be with her, she was thinking with her nethers. Not to say that the "You mean to say, like as in... sex?" wasn't a cute moment, but examine it for a minute, please.
And me, I think the dramatic possibilities of their relationship imploding are a lot greater than some sickeningly sweet homage to Romeo and Julliet. Plus we already had the gorgeous married couple struck down by tragedy; don't need to do it again when there are so many other possibilities.

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Sunday, June 10, 2007 6:24 AM

22CLAWS

Entirely pointy.

Faith and Robin Wood.

22

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Sunday, June 10, 2007 6:47 AM

DEEPGIRL187

And once again, the shipper fights break out.

On a more serious note, one thing I'd like Joss to explore is, heaven forbid, the idea of happiness. Because it's almost a requisite that if you're on one of his shows, there's no way you can be happy. So what if we go out on a limb here, and have a character deal with the issue of searching for happiness, rather than wallowing in misery? Despite popular belief (and what usually gets good ratings), I think that there's potential for a really great story there.

*************************************************

"If you want to win a war, you must serve no master but your ambition."

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Sunday, June 10, 2007 11:14 AM

TERRI

Well, it's obvious that Whedon has a problem with happy endings, I'll give him that. He's a fanboy with a problem like that. So, my original assesment of his fanboy at heart status is not in jeopardy, just needs to be reassessed. What is it in human beings that makes us long to see everything end well for people? Past making a cinematic masterpiece, past drama, past getting people into the seats, there has to be something intrinsically wrong with a person who will do that. I mean, not in a bad way. Everybody's got something a little wrong with them, and it's his creativity that makes us love his characters. But for a person who has created these charactesr, is destroying their happiness (or just killing them) so necessary to tell the story? It's like he took the lesson that life isn't fair, and made it starkly, strikingly true. So, I'm left to wonder, in a purely hypothetical way, and in a purely scholarly way, what happened to him? Why doesn't he believe in true love? And if he does believe in it, why does it always end in tragedy?

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Sunday, June 10, 2007 11:30 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST

That's an interesting question Terri. I'm sure there is an answer there somewhere. In commentaries Joss every now and then lets slip his 'angst' as a teenager as the catalyst to many of his stories, and even writes dialogue based on things said to him as a younger man. He makes great point of this when he wrote the exchange between Jessie and Cordelia in the pilot, where Jessie asked Cordelia to dance and her retort being,
"What with you?"
This he says in the commentary is verbatim.
As a writer you tend to draw from personal experience and I think many of Joss' exchanges with women and the lack of success, to which he frequently alludes to, is maybe evident in his stories.

But I'm just guessing. Much of it may be to flow contrary to many shows on TV to just give his work that little edge compared to his contemporaries.

www.cirqus.com

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Sunday, June 10, 2007 11:56 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
despite their differences, I'd think there's more at work between Simon and Kaylee.

Why? What evidence is there of that? She lusted after him, got pissy with him, lusted after him again, had a few good moments, got pissy with him, etc etc etc. Even when he got really sweet, facing certain doom and regretting he'd never gotten to be with her, she was thinking with her nethers. Not to say that the "You mean to say, like as in... sex?" wasn't a cute moment, but examine it for a minute, please.

Isn't that what couples in when they're in love ? Go round and round and put up with stuff they'd otherwise do with out ? Perhaps it's more than just 'lust' that draws her toward Simon. And iffin' it's your point to suggest that Kaylee is nothing more than a shallow, horny, gold diggin' space hussy, I'm inclined to disagree w/ ya. Heck, if all she wanted was a hot piece between her thighs, Jayne would have stepped in an obliged her in a second. Jayne even seemed to suggest he'd have a go at River, if you recall, from the first ep. Not that he'd have lived long enough to try it with River in the 1st place.

Quote:
.....And me, I think the dramatic possibilities of their relationship imploding are a lot greater than some sickeningly sweet homage to Romeo and Julliet. Plus we already had the gorgeous married couple struck down by tragedy; don't need to do it again when there are so many other possibilities.

Never said there weren't OTHER possiblities. Maybe Simon gets tired of Kaylee's outter planet, bumpkin ways, or Kaylee realizes Simon isn't all the man she needs, and that what really gets her nether's worked up is a good thrust by the Besters of the 'verse.

Quote:
TERRI wrote:

So, I'm left to wonder, in a purely hypothetical way, and in a purely scholarly way, what happened to him? Why doesn't he believe in true love? And if he does believe in it, why does it always end in tragedy?

Joss clearly believes in true love, just not allowing his characters ( or the viewers )to enjoy it for very long. I also wonder what's up w/ that.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, June 10, 2007 12:11 PM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
And iffin' it's your point to suggest that Kaylee is nothing more than a shallow, horny, gold diggin' space hussy, I'm inclined to disagree w/ ya.

I never said gold digging and I never said shallow. But she is horny. Clearly. Look at how she got on the ship. Look at how she talks about Simon, not just at the end, but in the Maidenhead, too. Hussy? That might be going a bit far. She doesn't sleep with just anyone (as evidenced by the point you made about Jayne) but she does seem to go after anyone she can who's her type (that being young, pretty, and maybe in some way interesting or glamorous; Bester the mechanic, Simon the doctor, Tracy the tragically dead but then amazingly not dead). I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, I just don't see it as the squeal-inducing, true love, marriage and babies, domestic bliss kind of set up that many people seem to see it as. I don't think she and Simon are soulmates. I don't think they would stay together for life, or even more than a few years. I think it's possible that one or the other (or both) of them would get fed up, bored, or just plain enraged with the other. Not because of the societal distance between them, because I think that kind of thing can be bridged, but just because of their personalities. She's overly sensitive and is easily hurt, and he fumbles a bit with his words, how he feels, etc. Add to that the societal distance, and Kaylee just has more reasons to be sensitive, and Simon has more opportunities to unintentionally offend her/talk down to her/belittle her, or whatever else. Even if he doesn't mean it that way, she'd take it that way. Even if they are madly in love, that might not keep them from eventually ripping each other's metaphorical heads off. Not saying they should never have hooked up, not saying there won't be some happiness, just saying that, realistically (since Firefly is a more realistic show where things that wouldn't work out in reality don't just go ahead and work out anyway) it probably wouldn't last. Just. Like. Most. of the relationships in his shows don't last. Which was, I believe, the point of this little thread.

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Sunday, June 10, 2007 12:18 PM

CHRISISALL

NOBODY ends up happy. Period. Get a grip and smell the Buddhist roses. One almost always dies before the other. Or get killed on a plane together.
Joss' message is that all we have is NOW.

Chrisisall Book

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Sunday, June 10, 2007 1:02 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
PhoenixRose wrote:

I never said gold digging and I never said shallow. But she is horny. Clearly. Look at how she got on the ship. Look at how she talks about Simon, not just at the end, but in the Maidenhead, too. Hussy? That might be going a bit far. She doesn't sleep with just anyone (as evidenced by the point you made about Jayne) but she does seem to go after anyone she can who's her type (that being young, pretty, and maybe in some way interesting or glamorous; Bester the mechanic, Simon the doctor, Tracy the tragically dead but then amazingly not dead). I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, I just don't see it as the squeal-inducing, true love, marriage and babies, domestic bliss kind of set up that many people seem to see it as. I don't think she and Simon are soulmates.

Ok, we might not be seeing the whole Simon/Kaylee relationship on the same level here. Which is fine. I guess I'm more of a romantic, and want things to work out for them more than may be reasonable. Maybe not to the point of marriage, puppies and a picket fence, but I certainly would hate to see either die off, as per the norm for Joss's world. That's all I'm sayin'.

As for 'how she got on ' Serenity in the 1st place, there's 2 ways of lookin' at that. She got on board the ship because she was boning the mechanic in the engine room, but she became a part of the crew because she knew how to keep the ship in the air. A flying cargo ship makes more $$ than one stuck on a rock for weeks at a time. I look at Kaylee as a young, restless girl who wants to see more of the 'verse than she has so far. On her home planet, all she's got to look forward to is work, when her daddy can find it, and not much else. From the sounds of it, sex is about the only recreation Kaylee's got to break up the monotony of her rural , outter planet life. And while she might seem a bit on the frisky side, it's not like she's on her back for just any guy, or dyin to get married and start havin kids, which is likely the norm for girls her age on her planet. I think she wants more out of life, but she doesn't know what, so in the mean time..there's sex.

And not that she's a whore, mind you, but she seems to know what she likes and goes after it.

Boy, I think I've gone far deeper into the relationship of Kaylee and Simon than I wanted.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, June 10, 2007 1:06 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
NOBODY ends up happy. Period. Get a grip and smell the Buddhist roses. One almost always dies before the other. Or get killed on a plane together.
Joss' message is that all we have is NOW.

Chrisisall Book

Who asked you , anyway?

Seriously, why only live for now when you might be around for a long , long time. There's consequences to living only for NOW. Don't you know anything ?

One in the hand is worth 2 in the bush Raptor

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, June 10, 2007 1:13 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Seriously, why only live for now when you might be around for a long , long time. There's consequences to living only for NOW. Don't you know anything ?

Living fully and in the correct way for NOW is conducive to living fully forever, or don't you believe anything?

Quote:

One in the hand is worth 2 in the bush

Please excuse me if I say this statement seems antithetial to your stated position.

BTW, excellent analysis of Kaylee's situation!

Chrisisall

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Sunday, June 10, 2007 3:24 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Seriously, why only live for now when you might be around for a long , long time. There's consequences to living only for NOW. Don't you know anything ?
Living fully and in the correct way for NOW is conducive to living fully forever, or don't you believe anything?
Quote:

One in the hand is worth 2 in the bush
Please excuse me if I say this statement seems antithetial to your stated position.

BTW, excellent analysis of Kaylee's situation!

Chrisisall

Upon further review..I have no idea what I'm trying to say. But thanks for my Kaylee review.

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Sunday, June 10, 2007 3:30 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
But thanks for my Kaylee review.

De nada, mi amigo.

El Chrisisall

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Monday, June 11, 2007 6:05 AM

AGENTROUKA

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:

Joss' message is that all we have is NOW.

Chrisisall Book

I wouldn't get that message from the relationships that are shown as not working out, really. The ones that are torn apart by tragic circumstances, maybe, but not the ones that fall apart due to character incompatibility.

After all, the NOW can't always be peachy, and to strive for that is to deny all the pains of growing and learning.

I do think that Joss's portrayal of relationships is odd, because there's a reason and need for stages and gradual developments, mistakes and learning, and we just don't get shown these things as worthwile, not really. We see doom looming and then it strikes but people don't, generally, overcome problems long-term.

Negating all assumption of a future also negates all drive, and considering the Miranda message, I don't think that's what Joss is going for, either, so I'm left confused.

If there's a message in there, I'd say it's "Everyone dies alone (Die illusion of romance, die)", which at least doesn't imply that there's some kind of correct behavior to make up for it, but we're also never shown a character who is completely content without romance, so the real message there would be "Romance is a continuously futile source of pain", which is also not true because it CAN work out.

But then, I never was one to consider Joss a god. Just a very great source of entertainment and thought-provoking material. I like that I can disagree with him without liking the good aspects any less, but I'm sometimes glad that Firefly never got to a point where I would have had to turn my back on it...

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Monday, June 11, 2007 6:16 AM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Joss's portrayal of relationships is odd, because there's a reason and need for stages and gradual developments, mistakes and learning...

I see it as portrayals of stages, development, mistakes (maybe not always learning) and, well, realistic. Not all relationships work out. Not all things end well. Not everyone learns from the mistakes they make; most people have patterns they repeat. It's nice to see that, I think, rather than the "She's gonna hook up with him finally and then it will be perfect" that tends to happen in a lot of popular entertainment. Just my opinion.
The tragic ends? Well, I can't say I like those as much, or find them as realistic, but they are certainly dramatic.

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Monday, June 11, 2007 6:26 AM

AGENTROUKA

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:

I see it as portrayals of stages, development, mistakes (maybe not always learning) and, well, realistic. Not all relationships work out. Not all things end well. Not everyone learns from the mistakes they make; most people have patterns they repeat. It's nice to see that, I think, rather than the "She's gonna hook up with him finally and then it will be perfect" that tends to happen in a lot of popular entertainment. Just my opinion.

I get that and I agree.

But.. not once? It does happen, but Joss cuts it out entirely. That's what bothers me. Joss relationships never do survive past a few misunderstandings and initial hurdles, be they big or small. How about a series of six dozen different hurdles and actually making it?

Long-married, happy couples exist, and pretending it's impossible is not necessarily deep or wise. It's just as shallow (though more dramatic) as pretending the automatic ever-after, because neither deals too much with the challanges of making it work long-term without necessarily failing.

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Monday, June 11, 2007 10:27 AM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Well, don't discard Zoe and Wash. From what I've been able to piece together, they'd been married at least four years when the series started (series is six years after the war, the OoG commentary talks about the shooting techniques for 'five years ago' and I think it was one of the visual companions that said a year after they met they were married) and I think if it had continued we would have seen them getting past several hurdles. We saw them at the beginning and the end of War Stories, and I think that was great testament to their relationship. That was getting past a misunderstanding, an argument, some cold anger, and Wash saying he wished Zoe and the captain had slept together. I mean, really, that's a lot right there, and I think the relationship (like so many things) would have continued to be explored. You know, if it hadn't been cancelled and made into a movie that for some reason compelled Joss to kill off the husband. Like I say, I don't really agree with the tragedy thing. But I think, again, that Wash and Zoe's relationship was a realistic one. They had problems, it wasn't the picture of absolute bliss and harmony, but they worked and they loved each other to death. They didn't circle and spit like teenagers, they argued and talked and loved like adults. That, too, was a relationship I loved, because it was realistic, and it was glorious.

Excuse me, I think I have something in my eye...

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Monday, June 11, 2007 10:34 AM

AGENTROUKA

Yes, but Wash died the Tara death.

Which is just as Joss-avoidy as just having them break up. If it's not issues, it's circumstances.

If I'm not mistaken, Wash's possible death was already talked about for the series (set after two seasons?) before the movie made it a reality as it did, so I have little doubt that this would have been another thing that ended tragically for one reason or another.

I am, of course, open to the possibility, because I would love nothing more than Joss growing out of that pattern, but the evidence leaves little to go on by.

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Monday, June 11, 2007 10:34 AM

DESKTOPHIPPIE

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
Well Willow and Kennedy ended up together. It felt a little tagged-on but in terms of the show it did end well for those two characters.

Actually, Willow and Kennedy have broken up by the time we see Willow in the season 8 comics.

Still, it's a Joss thing. In all his shows any kind of relationship is tricky - boyfriends, girlfriends, friendships, workmates, parents, siblings... every relationship takes a huge effort and it doesn't always work out. And whever it does work out the happy couple usually bumps into another constant theme in Joss' work - the shockingly sudden loss of someone you love.

In 'real life' terms there's also the issue that drama requires, well, drama. So breakups and death are likely to be more common in any TV show than they are in real life.

Banners, Avatars, LJ Icons and other fun stuff at www.desktophippie.com

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