GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Do You Believe the Miracles in the Bible Really Happened?

POSTED BY: RIVER6213
UPDATED: Thursday, May 24, 2007 20:02
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Sunday, May 20, 2007 1:25 PM

RIVER6213


We’ve heard it all before: Jesus walking on water. Jesus Feeding 5.000 people with a few loaves of bread. Jesus turning water into wine, or healing of the blind, the lame, the sick, and people who were suffering from some mental sickness or demon possession. . We’ve also heard stories that Jesus could actually control the weather, and even make a plant or tree die just by telling it to do so. We also read of stories where in one case Jesus actually brought someone back from the dead, and in another case Jesus himself rose from the dead.

My question to all of you is do you believe this? Is it possible for all of these things to have taken place? If it were possible how come we never get to see things like this? Wouldn’t science have figured out how these things were done by now if they were possible? Did the people who wrote the Bible make this up? If they did why?

My secondary question for you is: In your life right now. What would a miracle look like for you?

This thread is directed at the people who do believe, or have an interest in the Christian Bible. I want to also make this very clear. I am not a Christian. I am learning about the religions that existed before Christianity, but I'm curious about some aspects of Christianity. Serious posters please! No name bashing, no putting people down for their beliefs, and no off-topic maneuvers. If you feel that you need to take things off topic feel free to create a thread in another section. This thread is for people who are interested in this sort of topic.


I’ll start.

I don’t believe in miracles. I’m not saying this to say that miracles don’t exist; I’ve just never seen one. I say this because I’ve never experienced one myself, nor in anyone one I know. If I were to fall off a 60 story building and survived, I might call that a miracle. I’ve been reading the bible, specifically the books with Jesus in it. I read about all of these miracles, and I’m not certain what to make of them. Someone felt strongly enough about them to add them to the bible, but you would think that if events like those happened in the time of Jesus, they would have periodically happened in other times…even in our modern times.

What do you think?

-River



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Sunday, May 20, 2007 2:10 PM

LEADB


O rot, you had to go and throw in 'believe in the Christian Bible'; so I don't well qualify.

I'll just have to read along this time.

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Sunday, May 20, 2007 3:53 PM

PIRATECAT


I believe in the same God as Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. I come from the line of Noah, descendant of the tribe of Japhet. Even though I was abducted by ETs how do I know this they said the words "spank the gringo" in spanish thats how I knew they where aliens. Yes I eat pork. In Matthew 23 the builders rejected the capstone. This is the symbol of the late JC coming back to save me from the space midgets. That is why the Great Pyramid has no point. I believe the Holy Bible is a guide book of life. My only issue with Baby Jesus is that I do agree with everything except turn the other cheek and love your enemy then were not on the same page. That is why I follow Barabas. Kill the Romans Kill the Romans.


"Battle of Serenity, Mal. Besides Zoe here, how many-" "I'm talkin at you! How many men in your platoon came out of their alive".

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Sunday, May 20, 2007 3:59 PM

TINADOLL


Of course i do. Its called Faith.

Scorpion:

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Sunday, May 20, 2007 4:06 PM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by Tinadoll:
Of course i do. Its called Faith.




Why do you think we don't get to see stuff like what happened during Jesus's time today in this modern age? I would imagine people seeing other people being healed of their problems like blindness, or retardation, or cancer in this modern day by a person who had a strong faith, and a complete belief in God as a major draw to joiningg the Christian church and worshiping that God. Why did that stuff only happen in the past? Why not have it happen now? Could it be that back then people believed much deeper than now? Or was it all just made up?

-River

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Sunday, May 20, 2007 4:09 PM

RIVER6213


Double Post.

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Sunday, May 20, 2007 4:13 PM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.


See, asking questions like this and saying only devout believers should answer is going to get you a scewed opinion. Believers are going to believe. They won't have an opinion on why someone would make such things up, and only very few see it as fables or learning tools rather than literal fact. I've known a few Christians who say "I think the lessons of the bible are true, but all those stories didn't literally happen" but most of them take it as fact. Which, no offense intended, it isn't.


Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.

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Sunday, May 20, 2007 4:19 PM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
See, asking questions like this and saying only devout believers should answer is going to get you a acewed opinion. Believers are going to believe. They won't have an opinion on why someone would make such things up, and only very few see it as fables or learning tools rather than literal fact. I've known a few Christians who say "I think the lessons of the bible are true, but all those stories didn't literally happen" but most of them take it as fact. Which, no offense intended, it isn't.


Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.



Thank you for responding PhoenixRose. Good point. Maybe I should change something in my opening post.

-River

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Sunday, May 20, 2007 4:21 PM

JOSSISAGOD


I do not believe that the occurances were miracles. I do believe that Jesus was most likely smarter than the average citizen for his time. Did he cure those with mental illnesses or blindness, I don't know, I do think that at least some of the people he supposedly cured had temperary conditions.

That said, I lost my Faith/Belief in God as discribed in the Bible, in 2001 in a similar fashion to Mal. I'm now a Taoist/Buddhist. However, I do believe that some of the stories in the Bible, are good guidelines to live by, however, I don't think that slipping up a bit will land you/me in The Hot Place.

Fe'nos Tol
JOSSIS(Most Definitely)AGOD

Self appointed Forsaken! Been on the list for a while now!
98% of teens have smoked pot, if you are one of the 2% that haven't, copy this into your signature.
"Look at me, I'm STUPID!" The Doctor.

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Sunday, May 20, 2007 4:27 PM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by jossisagod:
I do not believe that the occurances were miracles. I do believe that Jesus was most likely smarter than the average citizen for his time. Did he cure those with mental illnesses or blindness, I don't know, I do think that at least some of the people he supposedly cured had temperary conditions.

That said, I lost my Faith/Belief in God as discribed in the Bible, in 2001 in a similar fashion to Mal. I'm now a Taoist/Buddhist. However, I do believe that some of the stories in the Bible, are good guidelines to live by, however, I don't think that slipping up a bit will land you/me in The Hot Place.

Fe'nos Tol
JOSSIS(Most Definitely)AGOD

Self appointed Forsaken! Been on the list for a while now!
98% of teens have smoked pot, if you are one of the 2% that haven't, copy this into your signature.
"Look at me, I'm STUPID!" The Doctor.



I might agree with you but I think "something" happened. I could understand the writers mentioning one or two things regarding miracles, but they sort of go on, and on about it. Something very strange went on during that period in history that was different from any other time in history I suspect.

-River

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Sunday, May 20, 2007 4:52 PM

LEADB


Having relaxed the constraints, I feel "empowered" to now participate.

Some of the biblical miracles may be miracles "against human nature", for instance, it is possible the miracle of feeding the crowd with fish and loaves was merely a matter of getting folks who had brought something to share with their neighbor, to "pass the basket" sos to speak. Frankly, given human nature, getting folks to even cooperate on that level might well qualify as a miracle.

There are conditions such as "histerical blindness" which are easily susceptible to sudden healing; and faith in a man's ability to do this could well be all it takes. Healing the lepers... well, now that one is a bit harder to explain.

Personally, do I believe literally in the miracles of the bible? I'd have to say no. But that is simply a personal belief.

As to miracles in the modern age, many believe they are a common occurrance. Keep in mind, that every time the catholic church declares a new saint, miracles must be attributed to the candidate (and as importantly, not attributed to any of the "known" saints). The church is not shabby in their investigations; they do -not- want to be made a fool of in the age of modern science on the modern press. They may be low key, but they are thorough in their investigations. They certainly believe in miracles in the modern age.

An aquaintance of mine (Bob), in high school, was born with certain deformities that made it difficult to walk; some surgeries over time made things better, but he was never far without his crutches. One evening, he went to a faith healer; I cannot recall the affiliation, other than "not catholic" (we went to a catholic HS, so I just recall he had a certain unease due to the discrepency); after the healer did his bit, Bob -walked- off the stage; I gather he did more walking that night without his crutches than he had before, nor (at least at the time he discussed it with me) since. The "since" part being the problem. Why was he able to walk off the stage? Was it a miracle, that wore off? His guilt at going to a "competative religious" event caused him to lose what the miracle had gained? His faith waivered, so he lost the miracle? I can't tell you; I can only tell you by the time he talked to me about it, he was feeling very bitter.

Do I believe in modern day miracles? No; I will concede things happen we cannot explain, but I put that at the fault of our understanding of science and the human condition than tending to attribute it to "miracles". Obviously, others feel otherwise. I will concede that both my position and those held contrary-wise are largely "faith based" positions.

I will even go as far as saying I hope I'm wrong; my only reservation is that god seems a bit stingy with his miracles.

Do of course keep in mind when asking for miracles, even the faithful will say, "Sometimes the answer is 'no'."

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Sunday, May 20, 2007 5:05 PM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by leadb:
Having relaxed the constraints, I feel "empowered" to now participate.

Some of the biblical miracles may be miracles "against human nature", for instance, it is possible the miracle of feeding the crowd with fish and loaves was merely a matter of getting folks who had brought something to share with their neighbor, to "pass the basket" sos to speak. Frankly, given human nature, getting folks to even cooperate on that level might well qualify as a miracle.

There are conditions such as "histerical blindness" which are easily susceptible to sudden healing; and faith in a man's ability to do this could well be all it takes. Healing the lepers... well, now that one is a bit harder to explain.

Personally, do I believe literally in the miracles of the bible? I'd have to say no. But that is simply a personal belief.

As to miracles in the modern age, many believe they are a common occurrance. Keep in mind, that every time the catholic church declares a new saint, miracles must be attributed to the candidate (and as importantly, not attributed to any of the "known" saints). The church is not shabby in their investigations; they do -not- want to be made a fool of in the age of modern science on the modern press. They may be low key, but they are thorough in their investigations. They certainly believe in miracles in the modern age.

An aquaintance of mine (Bob), in high school, was born with certain deformities that made it difficult to walk; some surgeries over time made things better, but he was never far without his crutches. One evening, he went to a faith healer; I cannot recall the affiliation, other than "not catholic" (we went to a catholic HS, so I just recall he had a certain unease due to the discrepency); after the healer did his bit, Bob -walked- off the stage; I gather he did more walking that night without his crutches than he had before, nor (at least at the time he discussed it with me) since. The "since" part being the problem. Why was he able to walk off the stage? Was it a miracle, that wore off? His guilt at going to a "competative religious" event caused him to lose what the miracle had gained? His faith waivered, so he lost the miracle? I can't tell you; I can only tell you by the time he talked to me about it, he was feeling very bitter.

Do I believe in modern day miracles? No; I will concede things happen we cannot explain, but I put that at the fault of our understanding of science and the human condition than tending to attribute it to "miracles". Obviously, others feel otherwise. I will concede that both my position and those held contrary-wise are largely "faith based" positions.

I will even go as far as saying I hope I'm wrong; my only reservation is that god seems a bit stingy with his miracles.

Do of course keep in mind when asking for miracles, even the faithful will say, "Sometimes the answer is 'no'."



With the Christian God most of the time the answer is no, and Science is magicks explained.

I'm just so up on this particular subject because when reading the Bible I am just taken aback by all the healing being done by Jesus. Did the writers of the bible really believe all of this? A lot of them claimed to have witnessed the miracles, and they go on and on about how cool it was. Jesus himself claims that we all have this ability if we have faith and love god with all of our hearts and souls. Do you know someone who is really walking the walk with God and Jesus? Are they healing anyone? I know one person that is what I would call the perfect Christian, and I don't see her healing anyone.

I'm going to keep pressing this subject because I KNOW there has to be someone out there that can say "Yes, I believe in the Miracles in the bible and I have for myself have seen these things in this here modern times."

Just the need to know.

-River



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Sunday, May 20, 2007 5:11 PM

XITWOUND117


Something pointed out by Thomas Paine in "The Age of Reason" (I'll paraphrase): miracles are a myth invented by the Christian church, as God can do everything. Raising from the dead and healing the blind is just as miraculous as the creation of the tiniest speck of dirt.

It always confused me how religious people called for miracles and addressed things as miracles, when, by believing in an all powerful deity, they should realize that the ground they stand on or the chair they sit in is far more miraculous than the simple defiance of rules and behaviors that the deity created.

It would be like saying falling toward the sky is a miracle. It would be a miracle of I did of my own power, or if any one of you did it of your power. But in relation to God, it is moreso a miracle that he made gravity, than it is that he made something refuse to adhere to gravity.

I always viewed religious people asking for miracles insultingly self-centered. What is your very existence, the food you eat, the air you breath, if it is not a miracle? If you believe someone is responsible for all of that, why would you ask him for more than what he has given you?

To me, things labeled miracles always seemed the least miraculous of all things.

May we never let Firefly die.

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Sunday, May 20, 2007 5:13 PM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by xitwound117:
Something pointed out by Thomas Paine in "The Age of Reason" (I'll paraphrase): miracles are a myth invented by the Christian church, as God can do everything. Rising from the dead and healing the blind is just as miraculous as the creation of the tiniest speck of dirt.

It always confused me how religious people called for miracles and addressed things as miracles, when, by believing in an all powerful deity, they should realize that the ground they stand on or the chair they sit in is far more miraculous than the simple defiance of rules and behaviors that the deity created.

It would be like saying falling toward the sky is a miracle. It would be a miracle of I did of my own power, or if any one of you did it of your power. But in relation to God, it is moreso a miracle that he made gravity, than it is that he made something refuse to adhere to gravity.

May we never let Firefly die.



So in the religions and beliefs that were in place before Christianity hit the scene, there were no such thing as miracles? Miracles are a creation of the Christian church?

-River

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Sunday, May 20, 2007 5:15 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
I don’t believe in miracles. I’m not saying this to say that miracles don’t exist; I’ve just never seen one. I say this because I’ve never experienced one myself, nor in anyone one I know. If I were to fall off a 60 story building and survived, I might call that a miracle. I’ve been reading the bible, specifically the books with Jesus in it. I read about all of these miracles, and I’m not certain what to make of them. Someone felt strongly enough about them to add them to the bible, but you would think that if events like those happened in the time of Jesus, they would have periodically happened in other times…even in our modern times.

Well first of all, none of the gospels as they exist in the Bible were written in the “time of Jesus.” They were all written many decades after his death. So while these might be considered contemporary with Jesus in the historical sense, strictly speaking we can’t say that we know that the people who wrote these gospels really knew Jesus or actually witnessed his works. They were actually writing from a second hand position. Now that shouldn’t be construed as the books of the Bible have no historical significant. The fact is that very little of our classical and ancient history comes form direct or perfectly contemporary sources. One example of which is Alexander the Great, of which no a single historical document, to my understanding, is even remotely contemporary. They were all written hundreds of years after his death. My point is that almost all classical and ancient history is based on hearsay. Pretty much our entire understanding of ancient history would not stand up in court.

With that understanding, the question: do I believe the miracles as literally (and at best second-handed) reported in the Bible? Not really. On the other hand, do I believe that something so inspiring and uplifting to the hearts and minds of the true observers occurred that led those people to tell others of how awesome that spectacle was? Yes. We can say, almost as a fact, that Jesus existed and that he said or did something that inspired people in a miraculous way. I would say that it is a very, very short list of people who have inspired others so miraculously as Jesus.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Sunday, May 20, 2007 5:18 PM

XITWOUND117


Quote:


So in the religions and beliefs that were in place before Christianity hit the scene, there were no such thing as miracles? Miracles are a creation of the Christian church?

-River


It doesn't address miracles as broadly as that. Its examination of religion beyond Deism is limited to the three major religions, and their flaws. It doesn't speak of miracles in general, but specifically of miracles propagated by the Christian church, and says that they are invented by the same people that invented many of the other issues it found with Christianity. A better paraphrase: Christian miracles are myths created by the Christian church.

Anyway, my comments can be applied to anything viewed as a miracle by people who believe in one or more all-powerful deities.

May we never let Firefly die.

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Sunday, May 20, 2007 5:28 PM

RIVER6213


Wow!

Some smart people here tonight!

Well, for a Christian myth it's pretty damned compelling. It seems that a lot of modern day Christian's faith is based on the miracles, and Jesus coming back from the dead. His death alone is a miracle, and a sign. So you are saying that Jesus didn't come back from the dead? Without Jesus coming back from the dead that kills off the whole Christian religion. It appears that Jesus coming back from the dead is a focal point that makes or breaks the Bible.

Whatever happened during the time that Jesus was alive I suspect was an unusual situation. Something happened.

We need to send a camera crew back through time.

-River


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Sunday, May 20, 2007 5:37 PM

XITWOUND117


I think much of the original message (if there was one) of the Christian church was polluted a very long time ago by the power hungry, who left it in an almost unrecognizable state.
Personally, I feel like if an all-powerful deity wanted to be known to those that he created, he'd use a far better way than the methods described in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Make us all depend upon the word and writing of our fellow man (who we all know is willing to lie, cheat, and murder) doesn't strike me as something a god would do.
I think the fact is if there is an deity who gives half a crap about any of us, he hasn't made himself known yet.
And once I come to that conclusion, the matter of what really happened during Jesus's lifetime seems immaterial. Whether or not any of what is said about Jesus is true doesn't affect my life and how I will live it in any way whatsoever. And I think that's the only reason anyone should take Jesus into account; because of how they will live their lives. If you just want the truth about what happened, that's never comin'.

May we never let Firefly die.

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Sunday, May 20, 2007 5:39 PM

SIGMANUNKI


Historically speaking the Bible was written as parable/allegory. This was the writing style of the time. To attribute literal truth to it is self-delusion.

All that one needs to do is look at the different versions of say, Jesus' resurrection to get this. There are so many different conflicting things in those stories it isn't funny.

EDIT: These might be helpful:

By John Shelby Spong - retired Bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of Newark
http://www.amazon.com/Why-Christianity-Must-Change-Die/dp/0060675365

The God Who Wasn't There
http://www.thegodmovie.com/

A decent documentary through the eyes of a former fundamentalist.

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Sunday, May 20, 2007 5:45 PM

RIVER6213


Hmmmm... So far it seems that most of you don't believe in the miracles that were written in the bible that Jesus performed. Here's a thought...what if it's true? What if Jesus did indeed perform these miracles? What if some guy was born with unusual abilities, and those abilities extended itself to curing blindness, disease other other human malady's? Let's say that out of all the humans that has ever been, one was born with the ability to heal? a true healer. Maybe that was what happened back then in the days of Jesus.

Interesting thought though.

-River


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Sunday, May 20, 2007 6:16 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
Hmmmm... So far it seems that most of you don't believe in the miracles that were written in the bible that Jesus performed. Here's a thought...what if it's true? What if Jesus did indeed perform these miracles? What if some guy was born with unusual abilities, and those abilities extended itself to curing blindness, disease other other human malady's? Let's say that out of all the humans that has ever been, one was born with the ability to heal? a true healer. Maybe that was what happened back then in the days of Jesus.

And such a story is inspiring in and of itself. Christianity spread originally, in the early church, almost exclusively among the poor, the slaves and the women. Later it would become the religion of the upper class, but it would spread like wildfire throughout the Roman world before that happened. People whose miserable existence under the heel of society led them to seek hope in the charity and love expressed by man who stood against the oppressor and overcame. In many respects it was a religion that was very unusual for its time. Most Greco-Roman religions and European pagan religions in general (including the German and Celtic religions) were designed to exalt the state or plead to man’s baser instincts. In other words, they were religions that either defined the rules of society or granted leisure or freedom from those rules, but that also meant that they tended to favor the powerful: the wealthy and the warriors. People who were in a position to benefit from a religion that espoused control or people whose wealth allowed them the free time to partake of hedonistic pleasures. Christianity was different, because it was a religion of control that did not exalt the state or free people of their responsibility. It provided rules by which society should function, but it also praised the meek and the poor and the sick. People who, quite frankly, were often ignored completely in other religions.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Sunday, May 20, 2007 6:17 PM

LEADB


Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
Hmmmm... So far it seems that most of you don't believe in the miracles that were written in the bible that Jesus performed. Here's a thought...what if it's true? What if Jesus did indeed perform these miracles? What if some guy was born with unusual abilities, and those abilities extended itself to curing blindness, disease other other human malady's? Let's say that out of all the humans that has ever been, one was born with the ability to heal? a true healer. Maybe that was what happened back then in the days of Jesus.

Interesting thought though.

-River



It is an interesting thought; but how is that much different than the story the bible presents? If you believe genetics alone tells the story; I would have expected that others from the line of David (et. al., I'm a bit weak on Mary's side; assuming lack of immaculate conception that the father was Joseph), that others would be cropping up with this ability. I'd be more inclined to accept divine parentage to explain that trait if he had it.

Back to "modern miracles", I have to believe there's still folks doing the traveling faith healing bit; if you really want to check it out, see if any of the current crop strike you as genuine.


====
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Sunday, May 20, 2007 6:34 PM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
Hmmmm... So far it seems that most of you don't believe in the miracles that were written in the bible that Jesus performed. Here's a thought...what if it's true? What if Jesus did indeed perform these miracles? What if some guy was born with unusual abilities, and those abilities extended itself to curing blindness, disease other other human malady's? Let's say that out of all the humans that has ever been, one was born with the ability to heal? a true healer. Maybe that was what happened back then in the days of Jesus.

And such a story is inspiring in and of itself. Christianity spread originally, in the early church, almost exclusively among the poor, the slaves and the women. Later it would become the religion of the upper class, but it would spread like wildfire throughout the Roman world before that happened. People whose miserable existence under the heel of society led them to seek hope in the charity and love expressed by man who stood against the oppressor and overcame. In many respects it was a religion that was very unusual for its time. Most Greco-Roman religions and European pagan religions in general (including the German and Celtic religions) were designed to exalt the state or plead to man’s baser instincts. In other words, they were religions that either defined the rules of society or granted leisure or freedom from those rules, but that also meant that they tended to favor the powerful: the wealthy and the warriors. People who were in a position to benefit from a religion that espoused control or people whose wealth allowed them the free time to partake of hedonistic pleasures. Christianity was different, because it was a religion of control that did not exalt the state or free people of their responsibility. It provided rules by which society should function, but it also praised the meek and the poor and the sick. People who, quite frankly, were often ignored completely in other religions.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero



Well it's a story that took on a life of its own. Let me see...healing the blind, the crazy, the dead, the diseased. Bringing people back from the dead, and controlling weather, and flora and fawna. Place the meekest, and the weakest person first. Walking on water, and being able to take nightmarish punishment and still forgive your punisher, and coming back from the dead. Also forgiving your enemies. They were pretty busy back in the days of Jesus. Life must have sucked so bad that someone had to step up to the plate and become a hero to the people...but still. SOMETHING out of the ordinary happened back then. Something so remarkable that if it were to happen today the same result would take place.

Maybe those miracles did happen?

-River

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Sunday, May 20, 2007 6:35 PM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT



I'm not 'xactly a believer, but I attended a church for most of the last 10 years, every Sunday, and studied a lot of the Bible and a lot of commentary on it. I sorta hate ta say it, butI agree with most of what FinnMac had to say above.

And I've read some of Bishop John Shelby Spong, and find him speaking directly to me, and hitting the truth exactly.

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Sunday, May 20, 2007 6:48 PM

REGINAROADIE


First off, while the Bible is a great book for spiritual guidance and clarity, one cannot put too much stock into it and take the stories it tells to literally. It is after all a 2000 plus year old text with numerous chapters that were left out that has been filtered through at least five different languages. Obviously some stuff will be lost through the various translations.

That being said, I think the stories that are told in the Bible are true to some extent. True enough that this specific version can still hold relevance and meaning thousands of years later and are the cornerstones of a powerful religion. Now what actually happened may not have been as fantastic as depicted in the Bible, but maybe a more stripped down, closer to reality version. And that through embellishment and perspective, that details would have changed and evolved.

Now, who knows if Jesus was this Holy Superman who could do all this stuff or was just some guy who had some really good ideas and had the spiritual clarity that influenced others. He still was an important spiritual leader who helped the collective spirituality of the human race. Whether or not he could actually walk on water or turn water into wine is irrelevant.

As per miracles, I honestly believe that they happen. I personally never have seen one, but I have faith that they happen to others and not in a Hallmark/Oprah kind of way but in a more understated and personal way. Dr. Manhattan's monologue in WATCHMEN about thermo-dynamic miracles was one bit of text I find relevant. I makes me agree that every living thing in this world is in one way or another a true miracle.

**************************************************
"Have you ever fired two guns whilst jumping through the air?"
"No."
"Have you ever fired ONE gun whilst jumping through the air?"

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Sunday, May 20, 2007 6:50 PM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:

I'm not 'xactly a believer, but I attended a church for most of the last 10 years, every Sunday, and studied a lot of the Bible and a lot of commentary on it. I sorta hate ta say it, butI agree with most of what FinnMac had to say above.

And I've read some of Bishop John Shelby Spong, and find him speaking directly to me, and hitting the truth exactly.



Look, I'm not a Christian so feel totally free to express yourself at anytime. I won't take it personally at all. I'm just trying to understand. I've read all the Jesus stuff about the miracles that Jesus performed and I had questions regarding that. It seems that no one really believes in the miracle aspect of the Christian religion. I'm just referring to the people here in this topic, but I am also thinking about the world Christian leaders. Do they not believe in these miracles themselves? If not then there is a problem in the whole Christian religion.

Without Jesus and the miracles, there can be no Jesus coming back from the grave. There can be no taking on our sins and being forgiven for them. This would mean that the whole Christian faith is a lie, or a very not-so-clear story.

But, what if those things really took place? What if Jesus did rise from the grave after 3 days? What if Jesus did heal all of those sick people? What if after 2,000+ years we all find that what happened was so inconceivable that we turned our backs on it just to discover later that it was all true?

A lot of people assume that the people in the past were stupid, superstitious, and ignorant. It's true that many of them were, but a lot of them were not, and all of our science and math is based on those people from 2,000 years ago. I don't believe that the miracles happened, but maybe I don't believe because it sounds so impossible and defies all kinds of laws of physics that I can't believe.

Now I think I'm confused.

-River

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Sunday, May 20, 2007 8:20 PM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:

Without Jesus and the miracles, there can be no Jesus coming back from the grave. There can be no taking on our sins and being forgiven for them. This would mean that the whole Christian faith is a lie, or a very not-so-clear story.



Not really.

The message itself makes sense and loses nearly nothing by removing the showiness of physical miracles.

Love, kindness, generosity, forgiveness... Those things place us as closely to heaven here on Earth as is possible. In my own private "The universe might be ruled by purple elephants" agnosticism, the story of Jesus is mostly a metaphor for human interaction and it makes none of it less powerful to me for the removal of God himself.

Replace God with "order of the universe", more concept, less personification, and you still end up with a set of golden rules.

Quote:


But, what if those things really took place? What if Jesus did rise from the grave after 3 days? What if Jesus did heal all of those sick people? What if after 2,000+ years we all find that what happened was so inconceivable that we turned our backs on it just to discover later that it was all true?



Then what? Nothing.

Is it really relevant? Compared to what Jesus taught, those miracles are carnivale tricks.

They are designed to give credence to his God-given message, not the content of the message itself. Which was necessary in a time when religion equaled politics. You had to have a really good reason to change your personal philosophy back then because it defined where you belonged, how you were treated, a lot more directly than today.

In days of religions freedom, as we all like to think we have, miracles should matter a lot lkess than what the actual message tells you. If "Love Thy Neighbor" doesn't resonate with you, a healed blind won't change that. It'll just make you greedy for some miracle saving yourself. That's not faith, either.

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Sunday, May 20, 2007 8:41 PM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
Hmmmm... So far it seems that most of you don't believe in the miracles that were written in the bible that Jesus performed. Here's a thought...what if it's true? What if Jesus did indeed perform these miracles? What if some guy was born with unusual abilities, and those abilities extended itself to curing blindness, disease other other human malady's? Let's say that out of all the humans that has ever been, one was born with the ability to heal? a true healer. Maybe that was what happened back then in the days of Jesus.

Interesting thought though.

-River




First prove (or even show hard evidence) that Jesus existed. Watch the documentary I linked to see why people question this.

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Sunday, May 20, 2007 8:47 PM

SIGMANUNKI


@RiveR6213:

You do _not_ need Jesus to exist to follow "his" teachings. You do _not_ need Jesus' miracles to have faith in God. Given faith in God, you do _not_ need Jesus to have died on the cross to have your sins forgiven. God could do that well enough on his own. Or do you doubt his power

EDIT: We're also going to have to realize that the bible, while written decades /after/ "Jesus' death," is also pretty much a collection of re-hashed stories (with spin) of earlier religions e.g. Babylonian. In other words, not only is it horribly inconsistent (if taken even remotely literally), but its stories are hardly unique.

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Monday, May 21, 2007 1:09 AM

MAGDALENA

"No power in the 'verse can stop me!"


Do You Believe the Miracles in the Bible Really Happened?

Yes...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.myspace.com/lady_magdalena
http:/www.crazypurplewombat.blogspot.com
Recently crowned QUEEN JAYNE WORSHIPPER by FMF!

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Monday, May 21, 2007 2:05 AM

CAUSAL


Of course, this entire discussion is predicated on a couple of fundamental questions:

1) Do you accept methodological naturalism? This cornerstone of the scientific method holds that given any phenomenon, that phenomenon has a natural explanation. Clearly, science has been proceeding nicely on that assumption. The trouble is, it's beyond proof. You can't use scientific investigation to prove that every phenomenon has a natural explanation, because you'd have to have access to every phenomenon in the universe as well as the ability to test it--and that, of course, is impossible. So methodological naturalism can't be proven conclusively. So the naturalist still has to accept a proposition that is beyond proof.

2) Do you accept material reductionism? That is, do you accept that only physical things exist? Again, this suffers from the same problem as methodological naturalism: namely, it can't be proven. Spiritual entities would by definition be non-physical. But the physical sciences by definition only deal with the physically observable. So even if there were non-physical entitities, science wouldn't give access to them. And anyway, the foundational assertion of reductionism is that given any X, X is a physical thing. But we've already discussed the difficulty attendant to proven these sorts of propositions. So again, accepting material reductionism means believing a proposition that is beyond proof.

I think the way a person answers these questions is going to control the way they answer the question about miracles. A person who is highly committed to material reduction and to methodological naturalism is going to have to say, "no," because on their view miracles are impossible.

But suppose for the moment, for the sake of argument, that there is a God, and that that God has the attributes that traditional believers say he does (again, for the sake of argument). One of the attributes traditionally predicated of God is that he is all-powerful--he can do anything. So remember, for the sake of argument, that we are supposing that there is a God, and that that God can do anything. Causing a man to walk on water (for instance) would certainly be within the power of such a being. Bending or suspending the normal operations of nature would certainly be within the power of such a being.

The frustrating thing about this type of discussion is that often times, those asserting the naturalistic worldview are taken to be "rational" whilst the religious believer is taken to be "irrational" or, worse, "illogical." But the existence of a deity is still an open question in that it has not been proven conclusively either way. So the intellectual burden on each of us is to examine the evidence and arguments and accept the position that seems to make the most sense. For myself, I am persuaded that I must reject both rigorous methodological naturalism as well as material reduction, and believe in a deity. Being that I do, I certainly believe it's possible for that deity to perform miracles. And being that I believe that, I have no problem accepting the Biblical account of miracles.

________________________________________________________________________

- Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets
- Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police

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Monday, May 21, 2007 4:13 AM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:

Without Jesus and the miracles, there can be no Jesus coming back from the grave. There can be no taking on our sins and being forgiven for them. This would mean that the whole Christian faith is a lie, or a very not-so-clear story.



Not really.

The message itself makes sense and loses nearly nothing by removing the showiness of physical miracles.

Love, kindness, generosity, forgiveness... Those things place us as closely to heaven here on Earth as is possible. In my own private "The universe might be ruled by purple elephants" agnosticism, the story of Jesus is mostly a metaphor for human interaction and it makes none of it less powerful to me for the removal of God himself.

Replace God with "order of the universe", more concept, less personification, and you still end up with a set of golden rules.

Quote:


But, what if those things really took place? What if Jesus did rise from the grave after 3 days? What if Jesus did heal all of those sick people? What if after 2,000+ years we all find that what happened was so inconceivable that we turned our backs on it just to discover later that it was all true?



If "Love Thy Neighbor" doesn't resonate with you, a healed blind won't change that. It'll just make you greedy for some miracle saving yourself. That's not faith, either.



Actually, I think that a healed blind person would have a major effect on how I view the Christian religion, or at least the key players: God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, and how I've viewed them. Especially if I was there to see that healing for myself. An event like that might change my mind to the forces that are working out there and maybe bring some truth of that home to me. It would force me to think about the choice of which side am I going to be on.

People say that Faith is all you need in this particular religion, but I think most people need to have that faith based on something that they have seen and experienced for themselves; I'm one of them I suppose. I think this mystical character Jesus would have had a profound effect on the people of this world if he chose to show up in this modern age and started healing people and preaching his head off. This would cause a great stir in the world because people would be saying " OMG, it's all true!" and be forced to look inward.

Saying " Love Thy Neighbor" is fine and all, and it looks nice written on paper or spoken by a poet, but it does not stand up to the acid test of living. People respect action more than words. The witnessing of a person getting healed would carry more weight with the masses.

-River


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Monday, May 21, 2007 4:25 AM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
[B]@RiveR6213:

You do _not_ need Jesus to exist to follow "his" teachings. You do _not_ need Jesus' miracles to have faith in God. Given faith in God, you do _not_ need Jesus to have died on the cross to have your sins forgiven. God could do that well enough on his own. Or do you doubt his power

EDIT: We're also going to have to realize that the bible, while written decades /after/ "Jesus' death," is also pretty much a collection of re-hashed stories (with spin) of earlier religions e.g. Babylonian. In other words, not only is it horribly inconsistent (if taken even remotely literally), but its stories are hardly unique.

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"



I am not a Christian, I'm just an interested party so there is no "doubting of anyones words" to be careful of. Occasionally I like to read religious books, and this week it was the Kings James Bible. It reads like complete science-fiction, but it is very interesting. All the books within that book make reference to Jesus in name or some word-symbol, or by some word metaphor. This is found mostly in the Old Testament, but in the New Testament Jesus's name is all over the place, and no metaphor is needed.

This weekend I was reading about all of these miracles that Jesus performed and found myself getting madder and madder. I don't know why, but angry I was, so I decided to present this topic to you women and men to see what you had to say about it. For myself I find it all very hard to believe that such things had occurred. It makes you wonder about the detail in which these miracles were reported, and the writers seem VERY persistent regarding those miracles. Like I said before in earlier posts...something out of the ordinary had happened back then, and that something was so major that a bunch of people felt it was important enough to write down. Also later on, millions of people laid their lives on the line to protect, or project this information to the point where whole empires were brought down and millions died for it.
Something happened, and I want to know what.

Desperately Seeking Susan

-River



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Monday, May 21, 2007 4:27 AM

REDLAVA


To simply answer the question. No. I think the Bible is full of stories that have been around for many years before it was written. The author(s) have just bent them and tweeked them here and there to fit the morality tales they wanted to portray.

I look at it like an ancient "The Divinci Code." Loosely based on real events, but still a work of fiction.




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Monday, May 21, 2007 4:34 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:

Actually, I think that a healed blind person would have a major effect on how I view the Christian religion, or at least the key players: God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, and how I've viewed them. Especially if I was there to see that healing for myself. An event like that might change my mind to the forces that are working out there and maybe bring some truth of that home to me. It would force me to think about the choice of which side am I going to be on.



Would it really? You still wouldn't know if it was God granting the healing or, for lack of better supernatural alternative, "magic". Or maybe Baal or a network of 17 freelancing deities or aliens.

You'd still take the word of the healer/prophet that it was God's doing and that there is such a thing as heaven or the holy ghost.

A miracle is a physical manifestation of something. You still wouldn't know for sure what. Faith tells you what.

Faith is by definition not based on knowledge but on... trust.

Quote:


People say that Faith is all you need in this particular religion, but I think most people need to have that faith based on something that they have seen and experienced for themselves; I'm one of them I suppose.



How is that faith, though? That's... being convinced of something by a factual experience. Maybe frightened into submission or bribed by promising prospects. Basically, it's completely divorced from the message of Jesus himself.

Quote:


I think this mystical character Jesus would have had a profound effect on the people of this world if he chose to show up in this modern age and started healing people and preaching his head off. This would cause a great stir in the world because people would be saying " OMG, it's all true!" and be forced to look inward.



They would be looking outward, not inward. Outward at the miracle and the way it might benefit them, and the power behind it and how it might harm them.

Looking inward requires no miracle.

Quote:


Saying " Love Thy Neighbor" is fine and all, and it looks nice written on paper or spoken by a poet, but it does not stand up to the acid test of living. People respect action more than words. The witnessing of a person getting healed would carry more weight with the masses.



All that "action" might change is people's own actions. They'd adapt them as much to what is required to pass the test of the new miracle-sending top-dog deity. Until the novelty has worn off and they go back to how they used to be.

They wouldn't suddenly want to be kind to their neighbor unless the message itself resonated with them. The only way to make that happen is to show it to people by example. Just like human beings learn how to love by being loved first.

Everything else is bribery or coercion, not.. faith or actual inner reflection.

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Monday, May 21, 2007 4:36 AM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by Redlava:
To simply answer the question. No. I think the Bible is full of stories that have been around for many years before it was written. The author(s) have just bent them and tweeked them here and there to fit the morality tales they wanted to portray.

I look at it like an ancient "The Divinci Code." Loosely based on real events, but still a work of fiction.







Well if that's the case then I feel real sorry for all of those millions of Christians out there that take everything in the Bible as the absolute word of God. The absolute, essential part of the Bible was Jesus dying and coming back 3 days later. That's a miracle and if that didn't happen then there goes the Christian religion down the toilet, because that event was the glue that holds the religion itself in place. It's a shame though. it would have been nice to know that miracles were possible. I guess we live in a miracle-free world.

-River

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Monday, May 21, 2007 4:44 AM

TINADOLL


Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
Quote:

Originally posted by Tinadoll:
Of course i do. Its called Faith.




Why do you think we don't get to see stuff like what happened during Jesus's time today in this modern age? I would imagine people seeing other people being healed of their problems like blindness, or retardation, or cancer in this modern day by a person who had a strong faith, and a complete belief in God as a major draw to joiningg the Christian church and worshiping that God. Why did that stuff only happen in the past? Why not have it happen now? Could it be that back then people believed much deeper than now? Or was it all just made up?

-River



Thats not the point. The point is- Faith. You believe these things to be true because Christ is of God. Modern day has nothing to do with it.Christ is yesterday,today and forever

I pulled Faith in Christianity from Wikipedia and here is what it says

Quote:

Faith in Christianity centers on faith in the Resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) '... the gospel I preached to you... Otherwise, you have believed in vain...'. The same book says, in 15:14: "And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith" (see also Acts 2:32; Philippians 3:10; John 11:25). That he was raised from the death for God the Father. Most Christians believe that God is one eternal being who exists as three distinct, eternal, and indivisible persons: the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ the eternal Word), and the Holy Spirit.

The precise meaning of Faith in Christianity differs in the various Christian belief systems



You can read it here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_in_Christianity

To believe Jesus as the son and Eternal word (Gods promise as was reveealed in the Old testement) and preformed miracles is a to believe in what has no evidence.Faith has nothing to do with tangible There is no direct thing that you can say-"Here this is Jesus"

Its just a question of believing.

Like people who believe in Magic and a God or a Goddess- You put your faith in that.

My friend practices Voodoo.She believes that charms and rituals will heal illness'. I believe prayer words wonders.

Now i consider myself a mondern gal. I have read Darwin and Steven Hawking. They had tangible evidence about the universe around them. But i have also read Inherit the Wind.Christianity is sometimes accused of being close minded.IMO- there is no right and wrong when it comes to creation vs the big bang.Both should be taught. I believe knowlege is POWER. And teaching children everything-both sides to every argument,equally and without restraint.

Now i have read everyones comments,some very negative, and all i have to say is although you may not believe,Jesus indeed does love you. If there is some one judging you and they call themseleves Christian- Ignore them. Christians cannot judge others. I judge noone. I want you to believe what you want-I shall respect your judgements. For doesn't the bible say Love thy neighbor as thyself?

Everyday miracles do happen. But in a world gone mad could you slow down and take thetimeto see them?

Scorpion:

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Monday, May 21, 2007 5:12 AM

SIGMANUNKI


@RiveR6213:
"""
Desperately Seeking Susan
"""

Or they never happened and the /stories/ where presented to people. Basically, the moment you realize that the bible is *far* from literal truth, you come to a whole bunch of necessary conclusions (or necessary questions). Like, did Jesus actually exist.


The way you are going about this is also quite odd. You keep talking about a literal interpretation of the bible. I/We keep saying that this is a *very* poor assumption. One which is completely unfounded. You say that you don't believe these things happened. But, you keep interpreting the bible as literal fact even though pretty much everyone here has told you (some with reference) that the bible certainly is _not_. Why are you blocking this?


Btw, Jesus didn't exist before the New Testament. Thus there are exactly zero referenced, metaphor or not, about Jesus.

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Monday, May 21, 2007 5:19 AM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:

Originally posted by Tinadoll:

For doesn't the bible say Love thy neighbor as thyself?

Everyday miracles do happen. But in a world gone mad do you have guts enough to see them?




What a lovely way to put the "love" in christianity. Basically, say love thy neighour, and then question people in an offensive way.

Do have the "guts" to see that?

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Monday, May 21, 2007 5:24 AM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
[B]@RiveR6213:
"""
Desperately Seeking Susan
"""

Or they never happened and the /stories/ where presented to people. Basically, the moment you realize that the bible is *far* from literal truth, you come to a whole bunch of necessary conclusions (or necessary questions). Like, did Jesus actually exist.


The way you are going about this is also quite odd. You keep talking about a literal interpretation of the bible. I/We keep saying that this is a *very* poor assumption. One which is completely unfounded. You say that you don't believe these things happened. But, you keep interpreting the bible as literal fact even though pretty much everyone here has told you (some with reference) that the bible certainly is _not_. Why are you blocking this?


Btw, Jesus didn't exist before the New Testament. Thus there are exactly zero referenced, metaphor or not, about Jesus.

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"



I am blocking nothing. I'm focused on the fact that SOMETHING out of the ordinary happened 2,000+ years ago. Also, it is true that most of the people in this thread said that they don't believe the miracles occurred including myself, but I guess I'm still a fan of the big focal point.

My understanding of people is that on the whole they are lazy. One has to be inspired by self, or an event to actually sit down and put pen to paper, or in their case scrolls. A group of people took the time to write these books. Sure, thousands of years have past and these books were subjected to translations and changes, but even if that's the case people in this modern age STILL try to follow the teachings, and STILL believe the miracles, so from where I stand, something miracles happened 2000+ years ago that was so profound in the human mind, and was such a unique experience, that it could stand the test of time. I don't know what that "something" is, but I'm going to go find out.

Also, I'm not one to go along with the crowd on an action or opinion if I have doubts.

-River

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Monday, May 21, 2007 5:24 AM

TINADOLL


Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Quote:

Originally posted by Tinadoll:

For doesn't the bible say Love thy neighbor as thyself?

Everyday miracles do happen. But in a world gone mad do you have guts enough to see them?




What a lovely way to put the "love" in christianity. Basically, say love thy neighour, and then question people in an offensive way.

Do have the "guts" to see that?



Well i did have the guts to stand by my beliefs,in the face of countless opposition

But "guts" wasn't the word i was looking for- "time" was.

Scorpion:

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Monday, May 21, 2007 5:33 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
What a lovely way to put the "love" in christianity. Basically, say love thy neighour, and then question people in an offensive way.

Do have the "guts" to see that?

You’re offended by that? Wow, you have some pretty thin skin, dotcha?



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Monday, May 21, 2007 5:36 AM

AGENTROUKA


River-

you don't think that the experience of a new internal philosophy could be freeing and inspiring enough? If enough people experience it?

It may seem obvious, but when people suddenly and actually accept the idea of selflessness and helping each other, acceptance and kindness... that sort of stuff can change lives.

That IS an alternative explanation to actual physical miracles, in terms of impact, but you keep rejecting it out of hand. You're not even trying to react to those suggestions.

So, are you even looking for answers or do you just want to hear yourself talk?

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Monday, May 21, 2007 5:38 AM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
What a lovely way to put the "love" in christianity. Basically, say love thy neighour, and then question people in an offensive way.

Do have the "guts" to see that?

You’re offended by that? Wow, you have some pretty thin skin, dotcha?



Well that's a fire-starter if I ever saw it...

This is a crazy planet full of thin-skinned people. It doesn't make them weak, it makes them rather thorny characters.

I wonder if miracles defy the laws of physics, or is still in line with physics but just on a level that is beyond our comprehension?

-River

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Monday, May 21, 2007 5:42 AM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
River-

you don't think that the experience of a new internal philosophy could be freeing and inspiring enough? If enough people experience it?

It may seem obvious, but when people suddenly and actually accept the idea of selflessness and helping each other, acceptance and kindness... that sort of stuff can change lives.

That IS an alternative explanation to actual physical miracles, in terms of impact, but you keep rejecting it out of hand. You're not even trying to react to those suggestions.

So, are you even looking for answers or do you just want to hear yourself talk?



I am not rejecting anything, I'm just looking for the hole here. I'm looking for that one thing I can point at and say "aha!" and so far I'm not finding it. And also, you must mean do I want to see myself write? No, I'm on a quest, and in the process I'm interested in a good topic. My ego is not involved here.

-River

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Monday, May 21, 2007 5:47 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
I am not rejecting anything, I'm just looking for the hole here. I'm looking for that one thing I can point at and say "aha!" and so far I'm not finding it. And also, you must mean do I want to see myself write? No, I'm on a quest, and in the process I'm interested in a good topic. My ego is not involved here.

Based on what it seems you’re looking for, it doesn’t seem likely that you’re going to find that “aha.” So I would suggest that you need to reevaluate your goals in this case. It doesn’t seem very likely that you will ever have absolute proof of the miracles described in the Bible. And if you do, it will be a revolutionary event that will completely change the world we live in. It almost seems as if you’re trying to set up Christianity to fail, and I think that is the wrong approach.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Monday, May 21, 2007 5:50 AM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
I am not rejecting anything, I'm just looking for the hole here. I'm looking for that one thing I can point at and say "aha!" and so far I'm not finding it. And also, you must mean do I want to see myself write? No, I'm on a quest, and in the process I'm interested in a good topic. My ego is not involved here.

Based on what it seems you’re looking for, it doesn’t seem likely that you’re going to find that “aha.” So I would suggest that you need to reevaluate your goals in this case. It doesn’t seem very likely that you will ever have absolute proof of the miracles described in the Bible. And if you do, it will be a revolutionary event that will completely change the world we live in. It almost seems as if you’re trying to set up Christianity to fail, and I think that is the wrong approach.




That is not an approach I'm willing to take. I have nothing against Christianity. I'm just stubbornly wanting to know about the miracle issue. Is it true or not? Did it happen or didn't it, and why if it happened in the past why not have it happen now?

-River

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Monday, May 21, 2007 5:52 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
River-

you don't think that the experience of a new internal philosophy could be freeing and inspiring enough? If enough people experience it?

It may seem obvious, but when people suddenly and actually accept the idea of selflessness and helping each other, acceptance and kindness... that sort of stuff can change lives.

That IS an alternative explanation to actual physical miracles, in terms of impact, but you keep rejecting it out of hand. You're not even trying to react to those suggestions.

So, are you even looking for answers or do you just want to hear yourself talk?



I am not rejecting anything, I'm just looking for the hole here. I'm looking for that one thing I can point at and say "aha!" and so far I'm not finding it. And also, you must mean do I want to see myself write? No, I'm on a quest, and in the process I'm interested in a good topic. My ego is not involved here.

-River




I see.

I suspect that the hole you are looking for simply doesn't exist. There is no one answer because there is no way of measuring what happened in exact terms. The transcendent is by definition not within out earthly grasp. There is no proof or guarantee. Even miracles are just a manifestation we can't explain. We can't see what it ties to on the other side.

That's why it's faith and not fact or science.

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Monday, May 21, 2007 5:56 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
I'm just trying to understand. I've read all the Jesus stuff about the miracles that Jesus performed and I had questions regarding that. It seems that no one really believes in the miracle aspect of the Christian religion. I'm just referring to the people here in this topic, but I am also thinking about the world Christian leaders. Do they not believe in these miracles themselves? If not then there is a problem in the whole Christian religion.

-River


I have a lovely book that I borrowed from my church's library. It's called The Christian Agnostic, by Leslie D Weatherhead, originally published in 1965. He was pastor for 25 years to a Methodist church in Central London, a very hi profile position.
He examines a lot of these questions very specifically, and frankly admits that many of the Methodist church's rituals and official creeds are impossible to believe in. He said, paprphrased, that he would never stand up in the pulpit and say anything that he could not believe as a rational man. In consequance, he simply did not preach on the things that he disagreed with, did not include official rituals he could not suppodt in his services.

He still found plenty of stuff to preach and write about.

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Monday, May 21, 2007 6:02 AM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:
Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
I'm just trying to understand. I've read all the Jesus stuff about the miracles that Jesus performed and I had questions regarding that. It seems that no one really believes in the miracle aspect of the Christian religion. I'm just referring to the people here in this topic, but I am also thinking about the world Christian leaders. Do they not believe in these miracles themselves? If not then there is a problem in the whole Christian religion.

-River


I have a lovely book that I borrowed from my church's library. It's called The Christian Agnostic, by Leslie D Weatherhead, originally published in 1965. He was pastor for 25 years to a Methodist church in Central London, a very hi profile position.
He examines a lot of these questions very specifically, and frankly admits that many of the Methodist church's rituals and official creeds are impossible to believe in. He said, paprphrased, that he would never stand up in the pulpit and say anything that he could not believe as a rational man. In consequance, he simply did not preach on the things that he disagreed with, did not include official rituals he could not suppodt in his services.

He still found plenty of stuff to preach and write about.



Now that's a book I would like to get my hands on! I like reading stuff like. Also I think to approach this subject matter one has to be irrational about it. From what I've been reading the the whole God, Jesus, Holy Spirits, Satan, Heaven, and Hell are not rational in the minds of man even though all of that stuff MIGHT be true which is why it might be difficult for the modern human to accept, and that's where having faith comes into the picture.

-River

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