GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

I wish you all could rcognise

POSTED BY: CACHE
UPDATED: Saturday, March 31, 2007 22:57
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 19664
PAGE 3 of 3

Thursday, March 22, 2007 8:46 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Yup... I love my kinder teacher. I can't wait for nappy time and milk time. yummy!

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Friday, March 23, 2007 4:23 AM

KANEMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by zoid:
...So, forced to fill my own request, here's the link to Haken's blog that kaneman cited: http://fireflyfans.net/showblog.asp?b=275

It's dated 20 Mar 2004 (that's right, 3 years ago) and here's the entire page, quoted in context. Please note that the reader commentaries/questions are in reverse order, with the earliest comment/question at the bottom of the page, and responses/later comments above:
Quote:

Sharereactor taken offline

Well, I'm bummed. It seems this bit of news has had a cascading effect and a few other directory servers and a result have taken their listings offline temporarily until the Sharereactor situation has been resolved.

Quote:

FRAUENFELD (kapo) Due to the suspicion of breach of copyright and trademark laws the cantonal judicial Inquiry department of Thurgau has taken down an Internet-Site that served as a link platform for filesharing offerings. A process concerning these matters against the 25 year old owner from Frauenfeld is underway.

The Internet-Site located in Frauenfeld was online for about 30 months and last had over 220.000 hits per day bevor it was taken offline by the Thurgau officials. The in search engines toprated site worked as a anchorpoint for links to downloads of copyright and trademark protectet games and movies that were offered on the filesharing network.

After a complaint from several large corporations, represented by the swiss association against piracy, the cantonal judicial inquiry department of Thurgau initiated an investigation, seized the servers in Frauenfeld and had the site taken offline.

The responsible owner, a 25 year old swiss proved to be very cooperative in explaining matters at hand. The inquiries continue and will take some time.



Shiny

Sunday, March 21, 2004 - 16:21

>Just visit www.bucktv.net and you'll see what I mean.

It says 'under construction'...

| Top
Haken

Saturday, March 20, 2004 - 06:57

Sharereactor and websites like it (such as www.bucktv.net) acts as a directory and contains links to files available on the eDonkey peer-to-peer file sharing network. Clicking on one of these links (much like clicking on a hyperlink in your browser) loads the file information into your eDonkey network client (eMule Plus is a good one). Once the information is loaded, your eDonkey network client then proceeds to download the file from the peer-to-peer network.

What makes these directories popular is that they contain links to television programs aired here in the US. So if you were to miss an episode of your favorite show (if you're in the US), you can simply download it and watch it. If you're not in the US, these network would be the only way for someone in a foreign country to watch an American television show. One could think of this as a poor man on-demand television network.

While the majority of these directory sites list television programs and movies, some do have listings for commercial software--such as Sharereactor.

As for whether this is legal or not, I'm not quite sure and perhaps someone else can shed some light. But the general feeling is that since they're only listing file info and not actually hosting the files themselves, it should be legal, which is why these directory sites continue to thrive on the net.

I hope I clarified this a bit for you by being not very technical.

Just visit www.bucktv.net and you'll see what I mean.

| Top
Serena

Saturday, March 20, 2004 - 06:01

Haken, can you translate this into English for me?


Of particular interest to me is that Haken seems to be mourning the loss of access to broadcast TV shows, some of which may be inaccessible to viewers on an international basis. He mentions that software can be downloaded on some of the file servers (not that he does download movies/TV series/software and then burn and sell them to make a profit); but that he is "not quite sure" if "this is legal or not" -- probably speaking from the sense that he's not sure if the owners of ShareReactor could face jail time or fines. I believe he knows that sharing anything other than content you yourself produced from all-original stock (original manuscripts, music, etc.) is prohibited by law. The only question in his mind is whether or not the directory server is illegal.

Okay, so having said all that -- and having been painted as a "Fed" because I feel thieves are ruining everything for everyone, just so they can make some easy money -- here's the deal:

1. Everyone breaks the law. In virtually every case, people trying to lead honest lives the best way they know how, are breaking some law or the other, every day. Maybe you have too many pets... Maybe you use your barbecue grill too close to the house/on the deck... Maybe you're like me and willfully break the law by always traveling 5 MPH over the posted speed limit, everywhere you go (except through school zones and residential districts, where children might unexpectedly dart out from between parked cars to chase a ball). Point is, everyone does break the law.

2. Trying to use an excuse like, "Everyone breaks the law" to cover up a crime that hurts everyone else is just lame. Example: "Yes, I shoplift everywhere I go, and yeah, I know it drives the prices up for everybody else...But, hey! That's your problem! If it gets too expensive for you, you can always do it the 'good and cheap' way, like I do. Steal anything you can, and then turn around and sell it to Goodwill for pennies on the dollar. You'll turn a tidy profit!"

3. Haken may or may not have 'bent' the rules and accessed some over-the-air televised content to which he had no legal rights; but I'd be willing to bet my last dollar that he never burned that content to CD/DVD writeables and then sold it for money. I don't know Haken personally. But criminals never do anything for free, let alone at their own expense -- and in a very public way -- strictly for the love of doing so. Something like FFFn would never occur to a thief...

4. One last important point: There's no such thing as 'bending' the law. You are either in compliance with the law, or you are breaking it. Ignorance of the law is not a valid defense, either. The main thing to remember is that if you're 'bending' the law, that you will get punished accordingly, if you get caught. For the millions who 'share' their files with others, that might mean an unfortunate encounter with The Big Shark (as I analogized in a previous post) swallowing up your entire shoal of minnows in one fell swoop. Being a little fish in a vast school is a proven survival technique...but it ain't foolproof. Being a meal-sized fish, however, the kind that attracts attention? You will get caught. It's just a matter of time, and strictly at the convenience of John Law. You may think you're smart enough to get away with it. But -- like 'military intelligence' -- the words 'criminal' and 'genius' do not belong in the same sentence together...

In closing, while he never asked me to, I feel compelled to defend Haken's honor. kaneman's attempt to paint our benefactor with the same brush as himself is a despicable attempt to justify his own crimes. And, of all people, Haken least deserves such character assassination.

I and a lot of other people owe Haken a lot. Go peddle your excrement elsewhere...



Respectfully,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"You were truthful back in town. These are tough times. Hard to find yourself work. A man can get
a job, he might not look too close at what that job is. (to Mal) But a man learns all the details
of a situation like ours, well, then he has a choice." -Bourne

"I don't believe he does." -Capt. Malcolm Reynolds, Firefly, "The Train Job"

***Don't paint my BDHs as petty thieves, either***




Zoid,
The fact that he says he is bummed tells the whole story. We can debate why or if he downloaded copyrighted content if you want. I guess that is for a different thread.
You start your post by saying it seems as if Haken is mourning the loss of access to broadcast television. Well, was FF aired on television? Yes. Was it copyrighted? Yes. Am I trying to smear Haken? No. So you can sit at your comp. and act like you know why haken mourned the loss of Sharereactor if you want. The bottom line is he USED it to download stuff. Period.

P.S. Put the [MOD EDIT: Please refrain from personal attacks]

Respectfully,
Kaneman

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Friday, March 23, 2007 4:34 AM

GRIZWALD


Quote:

1) What FFF doesn't have a zillion pictures saved in picture files?...pictures from all aspects of the shows, the movies, and the awesome stars themselves?


Here comes Griz with a wet-blankety post:

Most of those pix are also under copyright.

Plus I don't believe it would be all that effective, honestly. People think we're weird already. They'd just groan and think, oh great, my Moonie/Hare Krishna/Fireflyfan friend is at it again. And they would back away slowly while speaking in soothing tones.

___________________________________________________
High Priestess of Pork and Ag-Related Activities of the MYTHICAL LAND OF IOWA



Click on my profile for my Annoyingly Long List of Firefly Links.

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Friday, March 23, 2007 8:58 AM

CACHE


Quote:

Originally posted by zoid:
Like I said, I think Cache's heart is in the right place, I really do.

Okay, so s/he stuck her/his foot in his/her own orifice, right off the bat. But, hey, let those of us who have never unintentionally insulted somebody on this board cast the first stone. I've still got folks on this board who are pissed at me because I've misunderstood their intent, and gone off half-cocked on them.

For me, it's all about intent to do harm, intent to give umbrage. Cache stepped on the toes of some hard-battled Browncoat guerillas, true. But, I reckon s/he was just really excited to be suggesting a new approach...

Having said that, I'm convinced that the approach s/he forwarded would be nothing less than disastrous for everyone who loves Firefly. 'Viral marketing' is not the same thing as copyright infringement on a massive scale, using the Federal postal system as a delivery mechanism. ...And even s/he admitted that people would get arrested, tried and convicted.

That's just lunacy. Even if it worked and Vivendi-Universal said, "Hey! People really like this Firefly/Serenity stuff! Let's make lots more!", that'd be pretty hard biscuits to take when you're in prison and the bull-queers/dykes only want to watch "My Name is Earl" on the communal TV, when Firefly is on.

...And when the murderers and rapists asked you what you did to get incarcerated, would you want to trade on your rep as the guy who 'viral marketed' Firefly, to keep your backside squeaky clean?

Like I said before: This is a disastrously bad idea, regardless its intent to be helpful. The only reason why I even piped up on this subject is to avoid anyone coming to the conclusion that it might actually work, beyond improving their 'love life'...

As to getting a CD-R in the mail, along with a heart-felt letter encouraging me to introduce it to my home entertainment network... (*stops typing until the laughter, hiccuping, and tears cease*) ...ummm, sure, I'd do that.

But seriously, I wouldn't throw it away. They make lovely frisbees/doggie chew toys (at least, for the doggies you're trying to promote to The Great Kennel In The Sky).



Responsively,

zoid




Sometimes I wish it wasn't so taboo to multi post,
but as I can only post one response I will ignore
those who continue to flame me for spelling, (here
is a link for you http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typo)
and respond to one of the posts that I found to be
more thoughtfull.

Yes it is true I did stick my foot into my own
orifice, and for that again I sincerely apologize.
I wrote my initial post at a time when I was in a
state of great anger, which was sadly misdirected.

As for the meat of your counterpoint, the arrest
trial and conviction part of my post was meant as
tongue in cheek. The only way to get arrested
doing something like is to be utterly retarded.
Were you going to mail these out with a return
address? The entire process is risk free, you
purchase some CD mailers, drop in the DVD, label
it with an address, put postage, and drop it in
the mail. You can even wear gloves if you are
really that paranoid, but the likelyhood of police
or FEDS using their resources to run fingerprints
on a mailer when they are chasing down terrorists
murderers and real theives is so miniscule as to
be laughable.

I also believe you are underestimating the common
curiosity of average folk. People like anything
that is free. You can liken receiving a random
DVD in the mail to an AOL disc, but how long did
they do that? They did it until they were the #1
internet provider in the country. Their marketing
campaign worked. Sure eventually they surpassed
the need for ISPs with their flood of discs but
surely if it did not work the first time the whole
campaign would have been shut down. They are as
we all know a corporation, and every corporation
has a bottom line. The point is, this type of
marketing works. It works well. And it is
relatively cheap. One could send out 100 copies
of the first disc for the price of one boxed set.
If say 25 of those people watch it, and 5 of those
25 buy the boxed set for themselves, well you just
made your money spent v.s. fans returned grow 500
percent. That is significant. That is good.

It is also significant that the people who you
would be sending this disc to are not your friends
and family. They are people you would not have
the occasion to ever meet or ever expose to Firefly.
They are random. It is marketing through entropy,
with a promise of exponential growth.

Would you let your indignation at my course ways
keep you from a good idea? Are you actually still
afraid of legal action? Do you really want it to
be a possibility that Firefly returns to the air?
I am asking these questions with all seriousness.

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Friday, March 23, 2007 11:26 AM

SHINY


Quote:

Originally posted by zoid:
...Now if only some of the other (moderately) old-timers would check back in, to at least let us know they were okay.



I'm old, and I'm okay (just a little tired from having to edit so many posts...I really try hard not to have to move threads wholesale to troll country but it's a tough call sometimes -- thanks to everyone who keeps the discussion mature and respectful even when those you are arguing with don't. Makes our job a lot easier!) :)

Keep Flying Everyone!

---

I don't need a gorram back-spaceship driver!!!

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Friday, March 23, 2007 11:59 AM

GRIZWALD


Quote:

Are you actually still
afraid of legal action?



I hope I didn't read this correctly, but I fear I did. Cache, do you mean that if you are pretty sure you won't get caught doing something against the law, then you go ahead and do it, because that's all that is holding you back?

What people need, and I hope most of them have, is an innate sense of morality that guides them. Not fear of punishment. That's what most of us parents are trying our best to instill in our little ones, that sense of morality when nobody is looking.

Shiny, tough call, but I'd shunt it, myself. I don't think it's going anywhere.

___________________________________________________
High Priestess of Pork and Ag-Related Activities of the MYTHICAL LAND OF IOWA



Click on my profile for my Annoyingly Long List of Firefly Links.

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Friday, March 23, 2007 12:27 PM

ZOID



Shiny wrote:
Quote:

...I'm old, and I'm okay (just a little tired from having to edit so many posts...I really try hard not to have to move threads wholesale to troll country but it's a tough call sometimes -- thanks to everyone who keeps the discussion mature and respectful even when those you are arguing with don't. Makes our job a lot easier!) :)

Keep Flying Everyone!


Hey, Shine! Sorry if I made your job any harder. It was never my intention to do so. ...Or any of those other times in the past, either (you know the ones). Everything starts out academic-like, and then someone invariably says, "Oh, yeah? Well, your mama!"

As to the old-timers, I just miss hearing from Channy and Gunny and Mmmm-a-lishus (awright, especially 'Lish) and all the others. Makes me all nostalgic. Its good to hear from friends like yourself who've been here since Day One (long before I knew this place even existed), don't get me wrong.

But I definitely miss old friends, perhaps gone, but never forgotten...



Respectfully,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'

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Friday, March 23, 2007 1:32 PM

FOLLOWMAL


Quote:

Originally posted by zoid:
But I definitely miss old friends, perhaps gone, but never forgotten...



Respectfully,

zoid



Me too, Zoid... even "middle timers" like myself.


www.goodworkspresents.org

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Friday, March 23, 2007 1:41 PM

ZOID


Thanks for engaging in conversation/debate (the fun kind), Cache.

First off, like I said, I am not a federal agent or any other manner of law enforcement employee. I am not even an acquaintance of any person thus employed.

I am, however, an air traffic controller, as it says on my Profile page. As such, I perhaps know a bit more about the triggers Homeland Security is sensitive to, than the average person.

I assumed that the sly 'viral marketer' in your scheme would send mailers from the drop boxes at a rotating public post offices or street corner boxes, sans return address.

The problem is, the sneakier you get, the more likely you are to get caught. Since 9/11/2001, the USPS has been very circumspect when it comes to anonymous hard-mailers in their sorting rooms. Perhaps you remember the anthrax that was mailed to various members of Congress? I'll let you in on a secret: Almost none of them had a return address (no accounting for intelligence on the few that did), and quite a few of them were CD-type hard-mailers.

So, thinking you're circumventing detection by not including a return address is a critical flaw in your logic.

...But it goes deeper. Assume the USPS intercept your mailers -- and I guaran-damn-tee they will -- and then go through the expense of opening them safely and then examining the contents of your CD-Rs. (NB: And, remember, you're talking about sending out hundreds of them.)

Now, what they find is no threat to national security, so *whew!*. ...But what do they find is a violation of copyright law, automatically made a Federal offense because these have been sent through the United States Postal Service.

But, like I said, I assumed cunning and guile on the part of yourself and your merry band of co-conspirators. As long as you drop your mailers in randomly selected post office boxes, they'll never catch you, right?

Problem: The more elusive you are, the more they will spend to track you down. "Today, it's Firefly," they'll reason, "but what'll it be tomorrow?" And because you've actually broken the law, they won't just sweep it under the carpet or write it off to youthful over-exuberance. They'll build up a pattern of the mailboxes you've used, in what order, and Bob's your uncle, they'll get you triangulated. One day you'll open the box to insert a handful of mailers and find your self surrounded and handcuffed.

Don't think they won't do it. Don't glom over that critical error in your logic. They caught all the persons who mailed the anthrax, and those persons never even sent out hundreds of mailers. Plus, every time the local USPS comes to a stumbling halt in order to isolate one of your 'no return address' mailers, it costs money; when the USPS services are disrupted, and when they remove your mailers to a detection unit. The biggest charge they throw at you (in terms of jail time) will probably be something along the lines of 'Interference with the Federal Mail'.

So, in conclusion, as I said before: Just back away from this scheme you've dreamt up, before you draw back a bloody stump. Dude, it's a bad idea.

Your heart's in the right place, I can sense that. And you're engaging in active thinking about new methodologies, and that's a good thing. Just try and cook up something spectacular that doesn't involve breaking the law.

Most folks around here will fanatically support a good, bold, inventive idea. But we are -- for the most part -- intelligent enough to recognize a 'Guyana Punch' solution when we see one, too...



Respectfully,

zoid

P.S.
It'd actually be better to include a return address, cuz that wouldn't rouse the inevitable suspicion at the Post Office. Of course, if your random mailing landed in the box of somebody with a predilection for reporting people for any old thing -- or if a random recipient was a 'FED' -- you'd still be screwed; but at least you could plead ignorance (much good that'd do ya'.) Best thing would be to forget that plan altogether and put together a new one that keeps you out of jail...
_________________________________________________

"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'

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Friday, March 23, 2007 2:10 PM

CACHE


Quote:

Originally posted by zoid:

I assumed that the sly 'viral marketer' in your scheme would send mailers from the drop boxes at a rotating public post offices or street corner boxes, sans return address.

The problem is, the sneakier you get, the more likely you are to get caught. Since 9/11/2001, the USPS has been very circumspect when it comes to anonymous hard-mailers in their sorting rooms. Perhaps you remember the anthrax that was mailed to various members of Congress? I'll let you in on a secret: Almost none of them had a return address (no accounting for intelligence on the few that did), and quite a few of them were CD-type hard-mailers.

So, thinking you're circumventing detection by not including a return address is a critical flaw in your logic.

...But it goes deeper. Assume the USPS intercept your mailers -- and I guaran-damn-tee they will -- and then go through the expense of opening them safely and then examining the contents of your CD-Rs. (NB: And, remember, you're talking about sending out hundreds of them.)

Now, what they find is no threat to national security, so *whew!*. ...But what do they find is a violation of copyright law, automatically made a Federal offense because these have been sent through the United States Postal Service.

But, like I said, I assumed cunning and guile on the part of yourself and your merry band of co-conspirators. As long as you drop your mailers in randomly selected post office boxes, they'll never catch you, right?

Problem: The more elusive you are, the more they will spend to track you down. "Today, it's Firefly," they'll reason, "but what'll it be tomorrow?" And because you've actually broken the law, they won't just sweep it under the carpet or write it off to youthful over-exuberance. They'll build up a pattern of the mailboxes you've used, in what order, and Bob's your uncle, they'll get you triangulated. One day you'll open the box to insert a handful of mailers and find your self surrounded and handcuffed.

Don't think they won't do it. Don't glom over that critical error in your logic. They caught all the persons who mailed the anthrax, and those persons never even sent out hundreds of mailers. Plus, every time the local USPS comes to a stumbling halt in order to isolate one of your 'no return address' mailers, it costs money; when the USPS services are disrupted, and when they remove your mailers to a detection unit. The biggest charge they throw at you (in terms of jail time) will probably be something along the lines of 'Interference with the Federal Mail'.

So, in conclusion, as I said before: Just back away from this scheme you've dreamt up, before you draw back a bloody stump. Dude, it's a bad idea.

Your heart's in the right place, I can sense that. And you're in active thinking about new methodologies, and that's a good thing. Just try and cook up something spectacular that doesn't involve breaking the law.

Most folks around here will fanatically support a good, bold, inventive idea. But we are -- for the most part -- intelligent enough to recognize a 'Guyana Punch' solution when we see one, too...



Respectfully,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'


I see your criticisms and they are noted. However
you have made many assumptions which are in my
opinion invalid.

1)I would never choose to use hard mailers which
the post office states clearly on big signs are
subject to inspection. There are plenty of
soft mailers for media which do the job nicely.
They are cheaper too.

2)As for the return address I would use a fake
one, one that does not exist. I do understand
that this cannot be left blank.

3)If for some reason the USPS decided to set up
a sting (I can't stop laughing about that one)
well I won't be there. One would only have to
mail out one batch. That's the beauty of things
that are viral. You infect once, and you move
on. Those you infect spread it for you. No one
is going to "triangulate" me. That is just silly.

4)Hundreds of CD mailers go through USPOs on a
daily basis, if not thousands in more populous
areas like cities. Welcome to the age of e-Bay
half.com et all. These things are hardly looked
at before they are tossed into a bin, sorted, and
poof, they are at their destination.

5)Do you have some intimate knowledge of the USPO
that I do not because I have never seen any DVD
players there?

6)Everything you wrote about the mail attacks in
2001 was wrong. They were all via conventional
envelope, and they have not caught the culprits.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_anthrax_attacks

The likelyhood of a quick burst of DVDs being
mailed out as a marketing campaign has in reality
very little chance of attracting the attention of
employees of the post office, feds, or FOX, who
would probably not press charges anyway as the
campaign is designed to drive up the sales of a
product they make money from.


Another idea I had was purchasing a copy of the
boxed set and mailing it to local popular talk
radio DJs along with a letter or flyer describing
the intent. This also applies to syndicated
nation wide DJs such as Imus, Howard Stern, and
Opie and Anthony.

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Friday, March 23, 2007 2:50 PM

MARINA


Quote:

Originally posted by Cache:
3)If for some reason the USPS decided to set up
a sting (I can't stop laughing about that one)
well I won't be there. One would only have to
mail out one batch. That's the beauty of things
that are viral. You infect once, and you move
on. Those you infect spread it for you. No one
is going to "triangulate" me. That is just silly.




Just a few post earlier you cited (as a successful example) AOL's technique of sending out CDs until they were number one - which kind of contradicts this notion of only doing it once. And, as much as I love the show, I think you're wrong about what kind of response you would get from a one-time pirated-DVD mailing/distribution.

Don't make faces.

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Friday, March 23, 2007 3:00 PM

TROUBLEMAKER


Does this forum even have moderators or is this a free for all forum? I would think that after the numerous confessions of illegal behavior in this thread would not only warrant the thread being locked but possible trips to banned camp.

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Friday, March 23, 2007 3:06 PM

ZOID


Cache:

Apparently, I made some mistaken assumptions about your proposed methodology. However, these were based solely on your descriptions of same:

Quote:

1)I would never choose to use hard mailers which the post office states clearly on big signs are subject to inspection. There are plenty of soft mailers for media which do the job nicely. They are cheaper too.

When I said 'hard mailer', I meant standard cardboard CD mailer. The USPS is looking for these, too, if they lack a return address.
Quote:

2)As for the return address I would use a fake one, one that does not exist. I do understand that this cannot be left blank.

But you previously said:
Quote:

Were you going to mail these out with a return address?

Maybe you can understand my misapprehension of this stage of The Plan.

So, now you're saying you'd make up a fake address from your own surrounding neighborhood? You presume the mail deliverers don't know their own turf? Or would you make up an address from a different city?
Quote:

3)If for some reason the USPS decided to set up a sting (I can't stop laughing about that one) well I won't be there. One would only have to mail out one batch. That's the beauty of things that are viral. You infect once, and you move on. Those you infect spread it for you. No one is going to "triangulate" me. That is just silly.
Again, my mistake. In your opening post, you claimed, "I'll handle central CA." (NB: That'd be central California, in standard terminology.) I misunderstood that you intended to 'handle' all of central CA by mailing out one batch. I presumed something a little more comprehensive than a single handful of CD-R's...
Quote:

4)Hundreds of CD mailers go through USPOs on a daily basis...

Again, misunderstood to be 'no return address' as you had previously stated, as opposed to 'with a fake address (probably from another city, or else one of my neighbors)'.
Quote:

5)Do you have some intimate knowledge of the USPO that I do not because I have never seen any DVD players there?

In the case of an anonymous CD mailer (which we've since ruled out, I suppose), the piece of mail would routinely be removed from the premises to an investigatory lab. They have DVD players, there. And computers, too. And really (scarily) smart guys. And software you would not believe.
Quote:

6)Everything you wrote about the mail attacks in 2001 was wrong. They were all via conventional envelope, and they have not caught the culprits. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_anthrax_attacks

Did you seriously cite Wikipedia?

As a final note, by breaking copyright law through the federal post, it's not about whether or not somebody would press charges. It ain't a civil suit. It's the proverbial 'federal case'.
Quote:

Another idea I had was purchasing a copy of the boxed set and mailing it to local popular talk radio DJs along with a letter or flyer describing the intent. This also applies to syndicated nation wide DJs such as Imus, Howard Stern, and Opie and Anthony.

Now you're talking our language. I especially liked the "purchasing a copy" part. I don't know about the DJs you mentioned; but the nationally-syndicated "Don and Mike Show" (totally inane, out of Washington, D.C.) recently received a season DVD of some TV show from a fan, and they were both talking it up in a positive fashion. This idea might work, and I think you're on the right track, if you're looking for dedicated folks (who're itching for a reason to buy another copy or three anyway) to help you promote Firefly in a new way.



Respectfully,

zoid

P.S.
"Don and Mike" may be inane...and rude...and juvenile...and a thousand other unsavory, unintellectual things. But they are also funny as hell. I laugh all the way home in the afternoons. People with whom I share the road probably think I'm either crazy or having some kind of seizure. HINT: Don't ever call them. Unless you're completely masochistic.
_________________________________________________

"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'

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Friday, March 23, 2007 3:18 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by Troublemaker:
Does this forum even have moderators or is this a free for all forum? I would think that after the numerous confessions of illegal behavior in this thread would not only warrant the thread being locked but possible trips to banned camp.



Heh.... ironic statement coming from somebody with the handle troublemaker.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Friday, March 23, 2007 3:21 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


I'm a huge fan of this site because of its freedom of speech aspect. Very Browncoatlike.

Kudos to the mods!

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Friday, March 23, 2007 3:27 PM

ZOID


6ixStringJack wrote:
Quote:

I'm a huge fan of this site because of its freedom of speech aspect. Very Browncoatlike.

Kudos to the mods!


I second. We may not always (or even ever) agree. But there is no Freedom without free speech.

And likewise, "Kudos to the mods", for having the uncommon wisdom to know and respect that tenet.



v/r,
-zed
_________________________________________________

"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'

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Friday, March 23, 2007 3:36 PM

TROUBLEMAKER


Quote:

Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Heh.... ironic statement coming from somebody with the handle troublemaker.



Its the truth; however, I have limits. This thread is past trouble, its right out chaos. Its obvious that there are "irritants" that need to be flushed.

Quote:

Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
I'm a huge fan of this site because of its freedom of speech aspect. Very Browncoatlike.

Kudos to the mods!



Some folk have no concept of freedom. Their definition of freedom is more of a definition for utter chaos.

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Friday, March 23, 2007 3:56 PM

CACHE


Quote:

Originally posted by zoid:
Cache:

Quote:


When I said 'hard mailer', I meant standard cardboard CD mailer. The USPS is looking for these, too, if they lack a return address.


Just as a quick example!
http://www.containerstore.com/browse/Product.jhtml?PRODID=62618&CATID=
62517&searchId=1465691&itemIndex=1

These are a bit on the pricey side but just
looking to show you what I meant.

Quote:


So, now you're saying you'd make up a fake address from your own surrounding neighborhood? You presume the mail deliverers don't know their own turf? Or would you make up an address from a different city?


Most likely a nearby area would be best. 1-2
Zip codes away.

Quote:


Again, my mistake. In your opening post, you claimed, "I'll handle central CA." (NB: That'd be central California, in standard terminology.) I misunderstood that you intended to 'handle' all of central CA by mailing out one batch. I presumed something a little more comprehensive than a single handful of CD-R's...


It would be more around the range of 200 or so.
The point being that those recieving the DVD
and enjoying it would then pass it on to friends
or family or remailing it themselves to another
random person.


Quote:


Did you seriously cite Wikipedia?


Yes I did.

Quote:


As a final note, by breaking copyright law through the federal post, it's not about whether or not somebody would press charges. It ain't a civil suit. It's the proverbial 'federal case'.


Hm, you have given me a small idea.

BTW Sent out a boxed set to Opie and Anthony
although it might take a while to make it to
New York I don't doubt they will be talking
about it soon, and their listeners number in
the millions. As a fan of their also inane
radio program I know that Firefly is something
that Anthony would love.

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Friday, March 23, 2007 4:01 PM

LIVEBROWN


Yay, sounds like we are all ready to sing "the ballad of serenity" round the campfire!

I have the marshmellow's!!



I prefer the legal methods, but one thing is for sure, they cant stop the serenity!

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Friday, March 23, 2007 4:11 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by Troublemaker:
Its obvious that there are "irritants" that need to be flushed.



Careful man.... dangerous ground you're treading there. I know it's bad form to bring up Nazism in a debate, so I'll just say that verbage seems vaguely familiar to me.

Quote:

Some folk have no concept of freedom. Their definition of freedom is more of a definition for utter chaos.



One man's freedom is another man's chaos. Who gets to decide where the line is drawn? You?

I don't see the problem here because fff.net is certainly not advocating piracy. If FEDs are really sniffing around here, they can track IP addresses and cause problems for "irritants". I don't really see how it's any business of yours or mine is all.

Personally, I wouldn't even come here if I was worried about half of my comments being censored all the time. If someone is being a troll, for the sake of being a troll, you just ignore them and they'll go away and find a place where people will justify their trolldom.

Would you really even want to be part of a community where every website would censor content for fear of being sued for what a blogger said? That, to me, seems to be the quickest way to limit freedom of speech and individual thought. When we're told what we can and cannot say and there are laws in place to enforce that, well...... freedom is truly dead.

Till then, I propose unless somebody is threatening you or your loved ones, you just look the other way. Nobody likes a tattle-tale.



Zoid.... cheers to you. I know we don't agree on much, (I'm sure there has to be something we did... sometime) but as long as we can agree on this, and our lawmakers still have our backs on this one, we have the freedom to have differing opinions.

This issue to me is so important that even if we disagree on every other thing we ever chat about on here, you're alright with me.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Friday, March 23, 2007 7:24 PM

BROWNCOAT2007


Wow.... I want Firefly back as much as the next folk... but pissing off the GORRAM Fox isn't gunna get us anywhere, hell, it might even make us fall back a step... all we can really do is keep signing, keep collecting, and keep spreading the 'verse...

We'll HOLD, HOLD till Firefly's back on the air!!!

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Friday, March 23, 2007 7:39 PM

CACHE


Hey I actually did a bit of research instead of
going off of assumptions. Now I am not a lawyer
but:

Excerpt from USC title 17 Section 506
§506. Criminal offenses
(a)
Criminal infringement.

(1)
In general. Any person who willfully infringes a copyright shall be punished as provided under section 2319 of title 18 [18 USC §2319], if the infringement was committed--

(A)
for purposes of commercial advantage or private financial gain;
(B)
by the reproduction or distribution, including by electronic means, during any 180-day period, of 1 or more copies or phonorecords of 1 or more copyrighted works, which have a total retail value of more than $ 1,000; or
(C)
by the distribution of a work being prepared for commercial distribution, by making it available on a computer network accessible to members of the public, if such person knew or should have known that the work was intended for commercial distribution.

Looking at that retail value stipulation I would
say that distributing 100 copies of a 1 of 4
DVD box set with a retail value of 29.99 falls
slightly under the mark of criminal. So to do so
would be breaking no law. /waves to all those
calling me a criminal. Even if the value
of the one disc is assumed to be the value of the
whole boxed set one could still send out 33 discs
without breaking the law.

Now that we are aware of what is legal and what is
not we can begin to have the real discussion.
What civil actions can be taken?

Excerpt from USC title 17 Section 501
§501. Infringement of copyright
(a)
Anyone who violates any of the exclusive rights of the copyright owner as provided by sections 106 through 122 [17 USC § §106-122] or of the author as provided in section 106A(a) [17 USC 106A(a)], or who imports copies or phonorecords into the United States in violation of section 602 [17 USC 602], is an infringer of the copyright or right of the author, as the case may be. For purposes of this chapter [17 USC § §501 et seq.] (other than section 506 [17 USC 506]), any reference to copyright shall be deemed to include the rights conferred by section 106A(a) [17 USC 106A(a)]. As used in this subsection, the term "anyone" includes any State, any instrumentality of a State, and any officer or employee of a State or instrumentality of a State acting in his or her official capacity. Any State, and any such instrumentality, officer, or employee, shall be subject to the provisions of this title in the same manner and to the same extent as any nongovernmental entity.
(b)
The legal or beneficial owner of an exclusive right under a copyright is entitled, subject to the requirements of section 411 [17 USC 411], to institute an action for any infringement of that particular right committed while he or she is the owner of it. The court may require such owner to serve written notice of the action with a copy of the complaint upon any person shown, by the records of the Copyright Office or otherwise, to have or claim an interest in the copyright, and shall require that such notice be served upon any person whose interest is likely to be affected by a decision in the case. The court may require the joinder, and shall permit the intervention, of any person having or claiming an interest in the copyright.

Now this is the sticky part. Here is where the
majority of corporations send you a C&D. In my
mind however, what corporation in their right mind
stops an ad campaign that is designed to drive up
sales of their product? The end result being that
copies of their product end up in the hands of
those who either 1) would not buy their product
even if they knew of its existence (i.e. people
who watch the first disc and toss it in the trash)
or 2) would buy their product if they knew of its
existence and do so expressly because of said
campaign.



P.S. Troublemaker, I would reply to your harsh
comments but I'm not going to let your obviously
winning attitude get me down. Much love to ya.

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Friday, March 23, 2007 7:51 PM

BROWNCOAT2007


Also wanna say... whats with all the personal attacks here folks?? Seriously... if we wanna get something done, we gotta WORK TOGATHER!!! Shure, smackin' down on eachothers ideas is fun and all... but enough with the personal attacks!!!

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Friday, March 23, 2007 7:55 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by BrownCoat2007:
Wow.... I want Firefly back as much as the next folk... but pissing off the GORRAM Fox isn't gunna get us anywhere, hell, it might even make us fall back a step... all we can really do is keep signing, keep collecting, and keep spreading the 'verse...

We'll HOLD, HOLD till Firefly's back on the air!!!



Not pissing off Fox hasn't done anything either.

Seems to me that any publicity is good publicity. There is no way in the 'verse that anything that got their attention would be a bad thing, no matter how criminal somebody got about it. I'm not suggesting anybody do anything criminal here, I'm just saying that if FOX or Universal or whoever you need to blow to get the show back on the air thought there was money to be made off of bringing it back, there is no way in hell that they would sit on show just to make an example out of somebody.

That's what the RIAA, MPAA & the 5 years in prison and up to $250,000.00 per infringement is for.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Friday, March 23, 2007 7:57 PM

BROWNCOAT2007


heh, other thing we could do if we REALLY wanna get noticed is *looks around all consperitorial like* blow up FOX headquarters?

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Friday, March 23, 2007 8:15 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Hah! Let me be the first to say, it was really nice knowing you before the Thought Police came and took you away.

EDIT: And I said BLOW, not BLOW AWAY! Dunno about FOX, but I certainly wouldn't want a girl to make that mistake.


"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Friday, March 23, 2007 8:34 PM

BROWNCOAT2007


hah indeed, hope y'all know that I was kidding =) 'cause blowing up things, while fun and shiney, is most defenatly illegal, if it were to be someones property other then your own

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Friday, March 23, 2007 8:59 PM

ZOID



Well, I don't really know who to respond to, or in what order, so since it's Cache's thread...

Cache:
Just in case you got the wrong impression, I'm not calling you a 'criminal'. As I said, way back up the page, people break the law -- wittingly or unwittingly -- all the time. Hell, sometimes, in order to do what I'd consider 'the right thing' -- rendering assistance at the scene of accident, for example -- a person could leave themselves liable to a lawsuit.

What you have been proposing is against the law. But it's simply not in the same league as what kaneman confessed, specifically, downloading "Serenity" and then selling pirated CD/DVD-Rs for profit. By analogy, your proposal is like setting a bonfire in your backyard (the fire marshal may cite you); what kaneman does is analogous to wanton arson. In both cases, y'all are playing with fire; but in kaneman's case, there is a blatant disregard for the health of the community. I hope everyone can easily see the difference.

I and many others would prefer not to give the Browncoat Movement an unsavory reputation by doing anything of questionable moral or legal merit.

6ixStringJack:
There is no such thing as a free society without free speech. But free speech, as envisioned by the founders of our nation and codified in our laws, does not extend to pandering criminal acts. You did not do that. kaneman did. And I'm not piling all this on kaneman. Every person has a conscious decision to make, whether to be part of the problem or part of the solution. The good news is, no matter what we've done in the past (or earlier today), we can decide to change our ways and act more responsibly to our fellow human beings, starting right now. It really is as simple as that. My sole reason for participating in this thread was to be a dissenting voice to those who so readily consider breaking a law which protects us all from the worst of such predations (see 'arson' analogy above) simply to promote an entertainment. It doesn't equate...

BrownCoat2007:
Having said all the above, I don't care if anything I say or do pisses other people off, much less F*x TV. I'm not walking this earth to make others feel more comfortable with an easy lie. I tell the truth, as it appears to me, from my unique perspective. If that makes some folks happier or more hopeful, then I am truly glad. If it makes others uncomfortable or incensed at me, at least I was honest about it. I ain't happy about it when I piss people off, but at least I can live with myself. It's better to speak what's in your heart -- and that same goes for those who have differing opinions, like 6SJ -- than to live like a lily-livered coward, afraid to speak up, and kowtowing to those who would be our masters. Free speech -- as I said above -- is the only thing that makes all persons equal, the only thing that keeps us from living in abject fear of our government, our church, our employers.

Frankly, if I could magically make F*x Television as a corporate entity so furious with me that they all spontaneously combusted, I'd consider that a good day's work. ..Don't even get me started on Gail Berman, the former associate of Whedon's who -- as President of F*x TV -- played an instrumental role in Firefly's mishandling and inglorious cancellation. She's a traitor, in my book.

As much as I want Firefly back on television (please, God), I don't know how happy I'd be to see it back on F*x. Supposedly, Sci-Fi is ending (not canceling) Battlestar Galactica at the end of season 4. I know where they could pick up a good idea for a series, and it wouldn't cost near as much as BSG to produce...



Respectfully,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'

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Friday, March 23, 2007 9:16 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Great post their Zoid. Only thing I have to offer on top of that is that our Forefathers, having come originally from a place where the Government was oppressive themselves, were very aware of the very real possibility that our own government would someday become corrupt and self serving. In fact, I believe they were convinced that it was inevetabley going to happen some day. This is why we have our Constitutional rights in the first place, and specifically why they tell us our right to free speech and the right to bear arms are so important. It's stated right there that these rights may one day be needed to rise against our own corrupt Government. I'd like to think that it won't come down to that in my lifetime, but who knows? Some people are already convinced that this time has come.

I would assume that in this context, they regarded free speech above even the law.


Note that I'm not using this as a means to justify freedom of speech to cover the discussion of illegal activities of ALL kinds, such as piracy for profit or arson.... I'm just sayin'.....

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Friday, March 23, 2007 9:17 PM

CACHE


Quote:

Originally posted by zoid:
Cache:
Just in case you got the wrong impression, I'm not calling you a 'criminal'. As I said, way back up the page, people break the law -- wittingly or unwittingly -- all the time. Hell, sometimes, in order to do what I'd consider 'the right thing' -- rendering assistance at the scene of accident, for example -- a person could leave themselves liable to a lawsuit.

What you have been proposing is against the law. But it's simply not in the same league as what kaneman confessed, specifically, downloading "Serenity" and then selling pirated CD/DVD-Rs for profit. By analogy, your proposal is like setting a bonfire in your backyard (the fire marshal may cite you); what kaneman does is analogous to wanton arson. In both cases, y'all are playing with fire; but in kaneman's case, there is a blatant disregard for the health of the community. I hope everyone can easily see the difference.

I and many others would prefer not to give the Browncoat Movement an unsavory reputation by doing anything of questionable moral or legal merit.

As much as I want Firefly back on television (please, God), I don't know how happy I'd be to see it back on F*x. Supposedly, Sci-Fi is ending (not canceling) Battlestar Galactica at the end of season 4. I know where they could pick up a good idea for a series, and it wouldn't cost near as much as BSG to produce...



Respectfully,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'


Zoid,
Now we are getting somewhere at last! I am not
sure as to wether or not you have read the last
post I submitted but what I am suggesting is not
illegal in terms of jail sentences and the FBI
getting involved. Of course that is if we keep
our mailings to a minimum, which is better than
nothing.

As for your latter point, Sci-Fi is the perfect
spot. When we begin our legal mail campaign, we
notify the Sci-Fi channel and direct their execs
to keep a close eye on the DVD sales over the
next few months. They will see a strong spike
for sure, and know that it is from new fans not
just the same ol same ol. BSG is ending this is
true, going out gracefully in a manner which if
all things were right in the world should have
been afforded to Firefly. This is our prime
opportunity. Our moment in the sun. And we
don't even have to worry about triangulation!
What say you???

Respectfully,
Cache

P.S. It was not you who called me a criminal, but
I am not here to point fingers and name names. I
am here to get our show back.

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Friday, March 23, 2007 9:41 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by Grizwald:
The man has a wife, and he has children who will need to go through college someday, and I assume he has a mortgage, and a powerful need to eat.



I'm not going to troll through this whole page again for comments like this, but I know there's a lot of them. There always are in these threads. And I want to vomit at their triteness everytime I see them.

If Joss can't feed his kids, that's his own damn problem and not even Kaneman's. If he can't afford his kids educations by the time they were ready to go he blew it all on cocaine, hookers and gambling... because that's the ONLY way he could even spend all of that money by then.

I never got my degree..... I never had a free ride.

Do I really have to bring up the topic of how the RIAA and the MPAA don't do anything to protect the rights of artists other than give a lot of lip service that they are protecting the rights of the artists? They protect the content that the major motion picture studios, TV studios and record labels pirated from the artists via heavy-handed contracts and huge legal teams to back them up. The Artists literally have to sell their souls to be signed. Artists are forced into prostitution and rarely is there anything in their contracts that gives them any control over thier work anymore. Those days are over.

This is how Big Entertainment has so much power. Then they suckered good people like you into believing this crap.

I'm not telling you to go and steal everything. I'm just imploring you and people who agree with this to stop buying their bullshit. Support and promote works that aren't mainstream. Anything that isn't attached to a major record label or movie production studio. Make it so completely undesirable for any artist to even consider signing with a major established label. Nobody would sign their contracts if the people were buying elsewhere.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Friday, March 23, 2007 9:55 PM

ZOID



Cache:

How about this for a fan-promotional idea:

Everybody send a copy of the Firefly series DVD (as opposed to a DVD of Serenity) to Vivendi-Universal, along with a condolence letter over their loss of BSG.

"Dearest Vivendi-Universal, d.b.a., The SciFi Channel:

Please accept my heartfelt condolences over your loss of the most popular and fascinating show currently on television. You must all be heartbroken that such a good, young show has come to such an early end.

Please also accept, as a small token of my esteem in your time of grief, the enclosed DVD of another science fiction television show that came to an even earlier, unfortuitous and unfinished end. Perhaps you've heard something of it. I'm sure you'll enjoy the story.


Sincerely,

Yore Nayme Heere

P.S.
If you enjoy the DVD, be sure to commend Loni Peristere and his ZOIC teammates for making the SFX look so good on it. He's still got offices on your lot, somewhere, although not for long since he'll be made unemployed once BSG closes.

Have a beautiful day."

Then we time it so that we all mail on the same day, resulting in several thousand (hopefully) Firefly DVDs hitting their mail room within a day or two, all with a sweet little "We're so sorry you lost BSG" letter.

We might also further suggest that Viv-Uni redistribute the DVDs to lending libraries around the country...



Respectfully,

zoid

P.S.
Time for bed. Tomorrow, perhaps.
_________________________________________________

"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'

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Friday, March 23, 2007 10:14 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Hey Cache.... I'm really liking this idea here. Got two things for you here:

I'm not a lawyer, and though I think I have a more firm grip on LEGALSPEAK than a lot of the proles because I actually read the fine print to what I'm signing, sometimes I just don't grasp certain verbage or my ADD kicks into high gear and I read some of it 5 times just to realize that none of it sank in and I need to start over again.

Not sure which is the case here.

My question, and this is the way I understand it, does this mean that everyone who wanted to burn 33 copies of the first disk, and mail them out with a message, say "Let Sci-Fi know you love Firefly", and "Buy the boxed set to see more", or just a "Save our Show" have the ability to do that under the $1,000.00 mark, or is this a collective thing that would not protect a group effort?

I know we've got some lawyer Browncoats here. I'm wondering if we have any lawyer types haning around this thread that might be able to shed some light on the legality of this situation as it is written here.


------

Second thing was, if we can prove to hesitant Browncoats that this is a legal strategy (assuming at this point,of course, that it is a legal strategy in the first place), I was thinking it would be a great Idea if we loaded some of our own BDE (Big Damn Extras) on the Demos. Get some of our most brilliant creative minds together to collaborate on a fan vid, a Firefly Desktop theme, ringtones of character's voices.... anything that would be bound to get even more attention and make the reach even further. Of course the legality of all of this would have to be considered before it was added as well.

I think this is a great idea and if we can stop talking about irrelevancies that we've been discussing in here and actually get some minds together working on it, we may have a very effective viral marketing scheme here if we can launch it within the realm of legality.



EDIT: I like Zoid's idea too. No reason why we can't do a couple of things all together.



"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Friday, March 23, 2007 10:43 PM

CACHE


Quote:

Originally posted by zoid:

Cache:

How about this for a fan-promotional idea:

Everybody send a copy of the Firefly series DVD (as opposed to a DVD of Serenity) to Vivendi-Universal, along with a condolence letter over their loss of BSG.

"Dearest Vivendi-Universal, d.b.a., The SciFi Channel:

Please accept my heartfelt condolences over your loss of the most popular and fascinating show currently on television. You must all be heartbroken that such a good, young show has come to such an early end.

Please also accept, as a small token of my esteem in your time of grief, the enclosed DVD of another science fiction television show that came to an even earlier, unfortuitous and unfinished end. Perhaps you've heard something of it. I'm sure you'll enjoy the story.


Sincerely,

Yore Nayme Heere

P.S.
If you enjoy the DVD, be sure to commend Loni Peristere and his ZOIC teammates for making the SFX look so good on it. He's still got offices on your lot, somewhere, although not for long since he'll be made unemployed once BSG closes.

Have a beautiful day."

Then we time it so that we all mail on the same day, resulting in several thousand (hopefully) Firefly DVDs hitting their mail room within a day or two, all with a sweet little "We're so sorry you lost BSG" letter.

We might also further suggest that Viv-Uni redistribute the DVDs to lending libraries around the country...



Respectfully,

zoid

P.S.
Time for bed. Tomorrow, perhaps.
_________________________________________________

"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'


Zoid,

I am off to bed as well, and i feel your tiredness.
I love your idea it is actually brilliant. Yet
we do need a mailing list to make sure that we
have a huge number sending the DVDs at the same
time. Otherwise it is a waste of our money and
emotion.

However, why are you still resisting and deflecting
my original idea, now that I have proven it to
be legal? You are a most intelligent and eloquent
individual but you refuse to see my plan as
viable? I don't understand. We can skate under
the limits of illegal distribution easily, aviod
civil suits by creating income for FOX, and (god
willing) bring back Firefly by creating a huge
buzz, that continually spreads until everyone
in the country (hopefully ) owns the
Firefly boxed set? Where is the harm in that?
Where do you still find fault in my fully legal
plan? F it i'll put my own return address on
the first 33 copies I send out (yes you have made
me a bit paranoid I will play this on the safe
side... grrr). I will have broken no laws and I
will sleep quite soundly after I do it. I just
wish that you in all your eloquence would be so
kind as to write my cover letter which would be
included in my mailer.

Frustratedly,
Cache

Edit: damn proved vs proven... how to choose when
you are in a typing frenzy, god bless for edits

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Friday, March 23, 2007 10:54 PM

CACHE


Quote:

Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Hey Cache.... I'm really liking this idea here. Got two things for you here:

I'm not a lawyer, and though I think I have a more firm grip on LEGALSPEAK than a lot of the proles because I actually read the fine print to what I'm signing, sometimes I just don't grasp certain verbage or my ADD kicks into high gear and I read some of it 5 times just to realize that none of it sank in and I need to start over again.

Not sure which is the case here.

My question, and this is the way I understand it, does this mean that everyone who wanted to burn 33 copies of the first disk, and mail them out with a message, say "Let Sci-Fi know you love Firefly", and "Buy the boxed set to see more", or just a "Save our Show" have the ability to do that under the $1,000.00 mark, or is this a collective thing that would not protect a group effort?

I know we've got some lawyer Browncoats here. I'm wondering if we have any lawyer types haning around this thread that might be able to shed some light on the legality of this situation as it is written here.


------

Second thing was, if we can prove to hesitant Browncoats that this is a legal strategy (assuming at this point,of course, that it is a legal strategy in the first place), I was thinking it would be a great Idea if we loaded some of our own BDE (Big Damn Extras) on the Demos. Get some of our most brilliant creative minds together to collaborate on a fan vid, a Firefly Desktop theme, ringtones of character's voices.... anything that would be bound to get even more attention and make the reach even further. Of course the legality of all of this would have to be considered before it was added as well.

I think this is a great idea and if we can stop talking about irrelevancies that we've been discussing in here and actually get some minds together working on it, we may have a very effective viral marketing scheme here if we can launch it within the realm of legality.



EDIT: I like Zoid's idea too. No reason why we can't do a couple of things all together.



"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack


6string,

I honestly don't know. I am quite good at
comprehending what i read and from the law it
seems that any individual can copy and distribute
any media protected by the general C law as long
as the market value of said media is under $1000.
Twice a year! I would greatly appreciate any
input from lawyer types as to wether or not we
can skirt under the alliance radar with this. It
would be beautiful. In combination with Zoid's
idea with a DVD spam to Sci-Fi, and a combined
effort regarding linking the two campaigns, well
the results could be devistatingly fantastic.
I wonder if those two words have ever been used
together in a sentence before. Anyway it is
really time for sleep. Thanks again.

P.S. Its quite possible I missed something in the
show since I have only watched it 2x through but
does you name not refer to the amazing film from
the 90's Six String Samurai (pulling samurai from
Samurai Jack)?

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Friday, March 23, 2007 11:04 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by Cache:
P.S. Its quite possible I missed something in the show since I have only watched it 2x through but does you name not refer to the amazing film from the 90's Six String Samurai (pulling samurai from Samurai Jack)?



Sx3, Guilty as charged. Suprised anybody got that. Great movie. Maybe you seen my geetar in the pic threads?

Picked up the Jack cause I like poker so much and 6ixStringKing was already taken at the first site I was going to use it. Turns out I like Jack a whole lot better anyways. Most people just assume it's cause my name is Jack.



Don't feel bad only seein' Firefly twice. Much as I love the show, I've only seen it once. I usually give anything at least a year before I watch it again. Actually... it's about a year since I first seen it now. The longer I go without, the newer it feels to me when I watch it again.

That's why I love this site. I never thought I would. I always assumed that fansites were just a bunch of nerds who watch the show a billion times and can point out all the little things that unfans don't see. Turns out it ain't like that at all here and even the uberfans are pretty damn cool. Still the best show ever made.

BTW... what do you think about the BDE idea?

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Saturday, March 24, 2007 7:44 AM

ZOID


Cache inquired:
Quote:

...However, why are you still resisting and deflecting
my original idea, now that I have proven it to
be legal? ...


Well, that's the sticking point, isn't it? Have you proven it to be legal? I read the ordinances you provided; but are these the only ones that apply? You admit not being a lawyer, and yet you assert that you have correctly interpreted these particular codes.

Have you ever heard the expression 'jailhouse lawyer'? It's generally used in a derogatory sense, roughly meaning, 'someone who knows just enough about the law to get themselves out of the frying pan and into the fire'. Don't freak on me, now. I'm not calling you a jailhouse lawyer. What I am saying is that, until a bona fide legal interpretation is provided of these and any other pertinent laws that might apply, I could not endorse such an action.

As 6SJ has aptly pointed out, there may be further legal ramifications for the type of organized action you are proposing, as opposed to a single individual doing such. Likewise, as 6SJ has further pointed out, there are actual lawyers that frequent these boards (although this may or may not be in their area of specialized expertise). I only wish I could remember at least one of their screen names...

To answer your question, and 6SJ's ensuing postulate, then:
If it does happen to be completely legal -- or at least defensible in a court of law -- then I would say, "Hey, we should all try this." But that hasn't been proven to my satisfaction, at this point.

I know enough about the Law, to know that I know virtually nothing about the Law...except this: "A man who acts as his own lawyer has a fool for a client." We have the right to defend ourselves; but the fact is that if you're going up against a team of high-paid lawyers, you'd better have a crack team of defense lawyers at your disposal. Either that or just save some time by pulling your pants down as you enter the courtroom, cuz you're gonna get your hide tanned. Funny part is, if you did have a lawyer, the chances are they'd be able to turn the keys in the locks of Justice, that you don't even know exist based on a casual reading of the code. The Law -- especially where highly expert corporate lawyers would be arrayed against you -- ain't nothing to be playing with.

If it's legal, I'd go for it. But it's gotta be safe, because I (like many others hereabouts) have got a family to consider. I would not risk my ability to provide for them on an ill-advised scheme to promote an entertainment, even one as singular as Firefly. Neither would I say to the younger generation that they should jeopardize their futures in such manner, because one day they might want to have a family, or at least be productive participants in our society, too.

Maybe you and 6SJ should start a new thread, calling for those forum members who are actual lawyers to evaluate your proposal. Include the law snippets you provided above, and restate your original proposal in a less 'you guys are lame' manner. With any sort of luck, you won't have so alienated the 'coats that they instantly start flaming...and you won't get any 'support' from piracy-for-profit advocates, which only serves to nullify your arguments.

The appeal of my promotional idea is that it is totally legal and beyond reproach, morally as well as legally. It would cost the participants c. $24 plus postage to play along, about what one might spend to take a date to a (crappy) movie. So, like your plan (less the questionable legality), it's not gonna break anybody's budget of either time or money to participate. And I know for a fact that there are Browncoats all over this planet that would happily piss on a spark plug if there was a snowball's chance in Hell that it would jump-start Firefly...

To conclude this post:
If your scheme proves to be unassailable under law, then I'd have no qualms about participating in it. Furthermore, I seek no credit/recognition for my idea. I enjoy my anonymity, my rank-and-file stature here on FFFn. So, if you (or anyone else) like my scheme, please feel free to pick it up and run with it -- and call it your own, if you so desire. Start a new thread with that proposal and I'll chip in with suggestions for further refinements, and I'll definitely send a DVD to Viv-Uni on the day...

The more fresh and targeted ideas we dream up, the better. Getting single-mindedly wrapped up in one idea -- developing "an emotional attachment to a single plan of action's success or failure", as I warn my ATC apprentices -- is tantamount to unnecessarily painting yourself into a corner, strictly out of hard-headedness...



Respectfully,

zoid

P.S.
An example of one suggested refinement of the "Condolences Plan": Research and find the lowest on-line price for Firefly DVD. Everyone purchase a copy from that merchant (someone large enough to handle an overload, say Amazon), on the same day ('everyone synchronize your watches'). Once we have confirmed home delivery, step 2 would be to mail them out, all on the same day, all to the same mail recipient, preferably a president or vice in charge of series acquisitions at SciFi. Next best recipient would be pres. or vice in charge of series DVD sales/marketing (e.g., the person who gets credit or blame when BSG season DVDs sales figures fluctuate).

Ask me why this course of action would be so effective psychologically, on three different fronts, if anyone's actually interested.
_________________________________________________

"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'

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Monday, March 26, 2007 9:13 AM

CACHE


Quote:

Originally posted by zoid:
Cache inquired:
Quote:

...However, why are you still resisting and deflecting
my original idea, now that I have proven it to
be legal? ...


Well, that's the sticking point, isn't it? Have you proven it to be legal? I read the ordinances you provided; but are these the only ones that apply? You admit not being a lawyer, and yet you assert that you have correctly interpreted these particular codes.

Have you ever heard the expression 'jailhouse lawyer'? It's generally used in a derogatory sense, roughly meaning, 'someone who knows just enough about the law to get themselves out of the frying pan and into the fire'. Don't freak on me, now. I'm not calling you a jailhouse lawyer. What I am saying is that, until a bona fide legal interpretation is provided of these and any other pertinent laws that might apply, I could not endorse such an action.

As 6SJ has aptly pointed out, there may be further legal ramifications for the type of organized action you are proposing, as opposed to a single individual doing such. Likewise, as 6SJ has further pointed out, there are actual lawyers that frequent these boards (although this may or may not be in their area of specialized expertise). I only wish I could remember at least one of their screen names...

To answer your question, and 6SJ's ensuing postulate, then:
If it does happen to be completely legal -- or at least defensible in a court of law -- then I would say, "Hey, we should all try this." But that hasn't been proven to my satisfaction, at this point.

I know enough about the Law, to know that I know virtually nothing about the Law...except this: "A man who acts as his own lawyer has a fool for a client." We have the right to defend ourselves; but the fact is that if you're going up against a team of high-paid lawyers, you'd better have a crack team of defense lawyers at your disposal. Either that or just save some time by pulling your pants down as you enter the courtroom, cuz you're gonna get your hide tanned. Funny part is, if you did have a lawyer, the chances are they'd be able to turn the keys in the locks of Justice, that you don't even know exist based on a casual reading of the code. The Law -- especially where highly expert corporate lawyers would be arrayed against you -- ain't nothing to be playing with.

If it's legal, I'd go for it. But it's gotta be safe, because I (like many others hereabouts) have got a family to consider. I would not risk my ability to provide for them on an ill-advised scheme to promote an entertainment, even one as singular as Firefly. Neither would I say to the younger generation that they should jeopardize their futures in such manner, because one day they might want to have a family, or at least be productive participants in our society, too.

Maybe you and 6SJ should start a new thread, calling for those forum members who are actual lawyers to evaluate your proposal. Include the law snippets you provided above, and restate your original proposal in a less 'you guys are lame' manner. With any sort of luck, you won't have so alienated the 'coats that they instantly start flaming...and you won't get any 'support' from piracy-for-profit advocates, which only serves to nullify your arguments.

The appeal of my promotional idea is that it is totally legal and beyond reproach, morally as well as legally. It would cost the participants c. $24 plus postage to play along, about what one might spend to take a date to a (crappy) movie. So, like your plan (less the questionable legality), it's not gonna break anybody's budget of either time or money to participate. And I know for a fact that there are Browncoats all over this planet that would happily piss on a spark plug if there was a snowball's chance in Hell that it would jump-start Firefly...

To conclude this post:
If your scheme proves to be unassailable under law, then I'd have no qualms about participating in it. Furthermore, I seek no credit/recognition for my idea. I enjoy my anonymity, my rank-and-file stature here on FFFn. So, if you (or anyone else) like my scheme, please feel free to pick it up and run with it -- and call it your own, if you so desire. Start a new thread with that proposal and I'll chip in with suggestions for further refinements, and I'll definitely send a DVD to Viv-Uni on the day...

The more fresh and targeted ideas we dream up, the better. Getting single-mindedly wrapped up in one idea -- developing "an emotional attachment to a single plan of action's success or failure", as I warn my ATC apprentices -- is tantamount to unnecessarily painting yourself into a corner, strictly out of hard-headedness...



Respectfully,

zoid

P.S.
An example of one suggested refinement of the "Condolences Plan": Research and find the lowest on-line price for Firefly DVD. Everyone purchase a copy from that merchant (someone large enough to handle an overload, say Amazon), on the same day ('everyone synchronize your watches'). Once we have confirmed home delivery, step 2 would be to mail them out, all on the same day, all to the same mail recipient, preferably a president or vice in charge of series acquisitions at SciFi. Next best recipient would be pres. or vice in charge of series DVD sales/marketing (e.g., the person who gets credit or blame when BSG season DVDs sales figures fluctuate).

Ask me why this course of action would be so effective psychologically, on three different fronts, if anyone's actually interested.
_________________________________________________

"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'



Bang on Zoid we are now in agreement 100%. I
would very much like to get the educated opinion
on these matters from a lawyer. I am just operating
from the legal code mentioned in the FBI warnings
standard to any commercial DVD. There may be
other laws to look at which would apply. It would
however seem counterintuitive.


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Monday, March 26, 2007 2:33 PM

MOOSE


Well, if reproducing the DVD is a sticking point, what if we use the original FOX broadcast?

I have no idea if that would be legal either, but hey it's an option.

This idea is basically what I did years ago (before the DVDs came out), but on a much, much smaller scale (a few friends). I made copies of my FOX broadcast "Serenity" episode and gave them out, letting them know if they liked it, a DVD set of all the episodes was coming out in a couple of months.

'Course it ultimately didn't matter anyways since I ended up buying them all sets for Christmas...

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Saturday, March 31, 2007 10:57 PM

CACHE


Quote:

Originally posted by Grizwald:
Cache = one-post wonder


Just thought I'd quote that because I found it
to be amusing. I am talking to some lawyers via
the internet and real life attempting to find out
if an organized campaign such as this is legal even
though it is on an individual level. Will report
back for those who care to see Firefly return to
the air.

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