GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Hurtful Whedonesque Thread

POSTED BY: CALIFORNIAKAYLEE
UPDATED: Saturday, March 3, 2007 15:17
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Thursday, March 1, 2007 12:54 PM

CALIFORNIAKAYLEE


I'm posting this here because I don't have a Whedonesque account. I know there's a lot of cross-posting between here and there, so maybe a mod from there will see this here.

I'm so sick about this I haven't been able to think about anything else. The thread is here: http://whedonesque.com/comments/12598 It started out as a link to more praise for Firefly and for Browncoats specifically from Orson Scott Card -- a man whose huge success as a science fiction author is apparently negated by his membership in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (aka Mormons), according to the Whedonesquers. Orson Scott Card (OSC from here on out) was featured in Done the Impossible, and he has praised Firefly, Serenity, and Joss on multiple occasions.

But the thread on Whedonesque quickly turned to why OSC is a "monster" because of his religious beliefs, with many posters -- including several of the moderators!! -- saying they would not buy any product produced by a Mormon-homophobe like OSC.

I am so angry, I'm shaking right now. I am so hurt, that I don't think I will EVER read Whedonesque again.

Let me explain. I was raised in the LDS church. By the time I was 15, I had realized it wasn't the right fit for me, and have spent most of my adult life working to find a religion that fits for me. I am in the process of converting to Judaism. But my entire family -- my parents, my five siblings, my brother's wife, her entire family, my mother's five siblings, her parents, and my 27 first cousins -- are all Mormon. My parents and my siblings are all huge Browncoats. It was my dad who converted me! My grandmother watched a few episodes over Christmas, and really enjoyed them. At least half of my mother's siblings and nieces and nephews are well on their way to becoming Browncoats. (And don't even get me started on the 30+ people my brother has turned into Browncoats at BYU!!!) They all have no problem being active, faithful members of the LDS church, and Browncoats at the same time.

Do the posters Whedonesque hate my family? Should my family return all their copies of Firefly, Serenity, Those Left Behind, the Firefly and Serenity Companions, t-shirts, Done the Impossible, Jayne hats, etc etc?

The crux of the hate spewed forth by the Whedonesquers in the general direction of OSC seems to be centered on the LDS church's view on homosexuality. Like most other conservative, orthodox religions, Mormons think that the act of homosexuality is a sin. I do not agree with them, and have had many fights with family members over issues such as gay marriage. But I understand that their viewpoint comes from a belief in God and a belief in the Bible. I have never seen any of my family members act in a hateful way towards someone who is gay, and all of my siblings have had gay friends at one point or another.

Let me reiterate that this is not a view unique to the LDS church. Many other Christian groups have the same point of view. Orthodox Judaism also believes that homosexuality is a sin. What I know of Islam leads me to believe that Muslims would also deem homosexuality a sin. And yet Orson Scott Card is singled out by the posters at Whedonesque. Why?? Do they think he's the only Mormon who is a fan of Firefly? Do they think he's the only Conservative who is a fan of Firefly?

Did they miss that one of the nine main characters is a Christian priest, for crying out loud?!

Now, I understand that for some people, any point of view that sees homosexuality as wrong or sinful is hurtful in and of itself. I can respect that. I also understand the personal decision to abstain from buying things from people who express views contrary to one's own. I respect that, and have done the same myself, on occasion.

But why the push back against people who genuinely enjoy and cherish Firefly? Why the hateful words towards someone who is well-known in the sci-fi community, and who frequently praises Firefly? I can understand disagreeing with OSC's religious view -- I was raised in that religion, so I think I know more about the specific views of Mormons than a good 95% of the Whedonesquers, and I disagree with OSC's views. I still enjoy his books, and just roll my eyes when I see something influenced specifically by Mormonism (which, again, I'm sure I'm a lot more sensitive to than most of the people who posted in the Whedonesque thread).

And what if Orson Scott Card wrote a Firefly novel? I know it's not likely to happen, but what if he did? Would the Whedonesquers boycott a Firefly novel, simply because it was written by a Mormon? What if there was a Mormon producer or actor or artist on Serenity? What if a Mormon works on the Firefly MMO? Would people who are such big fans of Firefly and of Joss's work in general turn up their noses at more of the Firefly 'Verse, simply because someone with devout religious beliefs worked on it?

There's a word for that: Bigoted. Hating someone because of their religion is NO DIFFERENT than hating someone because they are gay. (And again OSC, my family, and every other Mormon I've ever known does not hate gay people, they simply see the act of homosexuality as a sin.)

One of the things I love about Firefly is the melding of cultures, and the multitudes of different view points. Book may not agree with Inara's profession, but he can respect her, live on the same ship with her, and be friends with her despite it. Why can't the Whedonesquers respect Orson Scott Card for his contributions to modern science fiction, even if they disagree with his view on homosexuality?

~CK

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Thursday, March 1, 2007 1:08 PM

MSG


Here here CK. I live in Utah and many of my friends and neighbors are Mormons. Just like any other Christian religion they view homosexuality as a sin. Whether or not that is the right viewpoint, if people at Whedonesque truly feel that way they are welcome to that viewpoint, but targeting a group of people and believing them to be "evil" or stupid based on their views could apply to being gay too. Hating someone for being mormon is exactly the same as hating someone for being gay. It's an irrational prejudice that condemns all people in that group without any basis for that condemnation...Shame on those posters for furthering HATE!

"I'm not all that interested in the mental health of people who want to kill me. "- Leroy Jethro Gibbs



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Thursday, March 1, 2007 1:11 PM

CAUSAL


CK,

Well, there's just too much there to reply to it all. Let me start by saying how sorry I am that you are hurt over this. I share your frustration over the situation. I happen to be a fan of OSC's work (from Ender's Game on forward). I am certainly pleased that he is a fan of Firefly/Serenity. Obviously, I don't think that the man is a monster. I have noticed, though, that fans of Joss Whedon's work are disproportionately from the left end of the political spectrum (though you will find a few who brave the taunting and the insults to remain part of the fandom). For the most part, folks keep their opinions to themselves, even if they disagree with each other. But unfortunately, the most radical tend also to be the most vocal. And the most radical are willing to shout down any dissenting voice in the interest of progressive thought without some much as a nod to real tolerance. As far as I know, OSC hasn't made any statements that would indicate a hatred for homosexuals, nor called for any persecution against them. But in our cultural environment, especially given the lean of these boards, an opinion like his is bound to get attacked. You are absolutely right: hating someone for their religion is no different from hating someone because of their sexual orientation. Unfortunately, some people don't see it that way. I've been told by an individual on this very board that he'd enjoy the sight of Christians burning at the stake. Fair? Heck, no. But again, the most radical are the most vocal. Just keep in mind that the silent majority are behind you. Most of us can disagree and be civil--I'm sorry that you encountered some that couldn't.

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Thursday, March 1, 2007 1:13 PM

CAUSAL


Quote:

Originally posted by msg:
Just like any other Christian religion they view homosexuality as a sin.



I just would like to point out that you can still love people whose behavior you don't approve of. As a Christian myself, I'm pretty sure that we're supposed to be following Jesus' example (even if many of us don't do so very well), and Jesus most certainly loved people, even those whose behavior he would have considered morally wrong.

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Thursday, March 1, 2007 1:22 PM

CALIFORNIAKAYLEE


Thank you both for your replies, it's nice to know I'm not alone in disagreeing with the majority of the posters on that thread. And that was exactly my point, Casual: you can disagree with someone's actions, but still love them. You can see a person's actions as sinful, but still recognize that they are a child of God. You can say "live and let live", but still vote against gay marriage (or abortion rights, or prayer in school, or whatever). It is possible to disagree with someone and respect them at the same time.

I disagree with my family's views on homosexuality, but I still love them. And I adore the fact that they are Browncoats. I just couldn't believe that anything could possibly trump a love of Joss Whedon's work in the eyes of the Whedonesque posters. Apparently that's not always the case.

~CK

You can't take the sky from me...

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Thursday, March 1, 2007 1:33 PM

WHODIED


As with this site, on occasion, cliques of regular posters sometimes work each other up into a frenzy, like berzerkers, and collectively acheive a fanatic concensus that few members would agree with when spoken to singly.

One little bomb gets dropped and the next thing you know, it's raining like a plane load of ping-pong balls at a Captian Kangaroo convention.

I hope your post is noted, and the ramifications considered by the group.

Also Mozel tov! May this new chapter in your relationship with God be beneficial to All.




--WhoDied
_______________________

Never trust the books or the bookies, kid.
Real magic happens on the Q.T.



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Thursday, March 1, 2007 1:36 PM

CAUSAL


Quote:

Originally posted by WhoDied:
As with this site, on occasion, cliques of regular posters sometimes work each other up into a frenzy, like berzerkers, and collectively acheive a fanatic concensus that few members would agree with when spoken to singly.

One little bomb gets dropped and the next thing you know, it's raining like a plane load of ping-pong balls at a Captian Kangaroo convention.



Ha! This is the most accurate description of RWED I think I've ever heard!

Quote:

Also Mozel tov!



On an unrelated note, I know a guy that insists that the soda-bottle-full-of-gasoline-with-burning-rag-improvised-explosive is actually called a "mazel tov" cocktail. Rednecks!

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Thursday, March 1, 2007 1:41 PM

TDBROWN


As a fairly new member of Whedonesque, I agree with you wholeheartedly. I found a great many of the responses to the post about OSC to be offensive and in poor taste. I felt embarrassed for all BCs everywhere that such kind comments as were in the Article could be negated by such rude behavior.

Shameful.

"Might have been the losing side, still not convinced it was the wrong one." -Mal

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Thursday, March 1, 2007 1:43 PM

ZZETTA13


CK I do agree with CASUAL,MSG and TDBROWN here. I usually stay away from these sort of postings because so many ppl can come away with the wrong opinion of who they think you are. You do seem very hurt by this so I've let down my guard to jot down my opinion and hopefuly help you to feel better.

My wife was mormon for several years ( she isn't now and she wasn't raised mormon) I was raised catholic and I remain catholic though I'm not a church goer. Point is,I don't hate anyone for being who they are or beliving how they want to believe. I may not agree or understand their way but as long as they are not hurting anyone they should go about and live their own life. I do have problems with ppl trying to vomit hate. I try to stay clear but will stand up and fight if need be. Best thing to do is stay away from the haters. Ppl have the freedom to say what they want but I still have the freedom to get up and walk out. The blade swings both ways. Someones opinion can be their own and I respect that unless it involves the abuse of children. That is something that will never be tolorated!!

You are bound to run into folks like this all of your life. Talk to a friend about it ( as you've done here) it helps.

Z


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Thursday, March 1, 2007 1:43 PM

ZZETTA13


Caught by the double post sin.

Z

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Thursday, March 1, 2007 1:45 PM

FUTUREMRSFILLION


CK

Please don't let others stupidity get you done. If everyone in the world that PROFESSED them selves to be christian actually were - this would be a much nicer place!


----
Bestower of Titles, Designer of Tshirts, Maker of Mottos, Keeper of the Pyre

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

FORSAKEN original


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Thursday, March 1, 2007 1:48 PM

AGATSU


I don't believe in any god, but I still consider myself to be a good person - and I don't have any rule book to follow, only my heart. Should I be proven wrong after all and it turns out there IS a god, he can hardly be mad at me, now can he. Too many people are using religion as an excuse for their sh*t and interpreting religious text to fit their agendas and believes. I don't have that excuse, and I don't want to have it. The people whose paths I cross in life are the judges of me, not some god after I die.
Now picture yourself being born into ANY religion, and you disagree with one of the rules (e.g.: gays=bad). Do you change your religion? Nope, you ignore that rule but don't make a big fuzz about it because you don't want any trouble with your fellow worshippers.
On a side note, you can chose your religion, but you can't chose your sexual orientation. Just an observation.


"Dude, you don't want to fuck with the Browncoats.
They're cheering a show that's not even on". - Kevin Smith

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Thursday, March 1, 2007 1:49 PM

CAUSAL


Explained by CK

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Thursday, March 1, 2007 2:00 PM

CALIFORNIAKAYLEE


Thanks guys, I really appreciate all the positive responses. (TDBrown, I really appreciate your post on the Whedonesque thread!) And thank you for the mozel tov WhoDied!

I generally try not to let these things get to me -- raised Mormon and converting to Judaism, it's a good day when I manage to go 24 hours without hearing something bigoted (or at least misinformed) about one or the other! I also tend to talk these things out with my family, but I don't want them to find out that there are Browncoats out there who think this way about their religion. Their view of Browncoats is still so pure and wonderful -- which I think is greatly deserved! -- I don't want to spoil it. So thank you all for letting me vent here.

Btw Casual, I think FMF was echoing your sentiment: if everyone who says they are Christian followed Christ's example to love everyone, the world would be a better place. (Also, it's going to be weeks before I can say "molotov cocktail" correctly now, lol.)

~CK

You can't take the sky from me...

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Thursday, March 1, 2007 2:09 PM

EARLY


You've got good and bad everywhere even in groups of Joss fans. I mean seriously, there are actually Joss fans who don't like Firefly. How bright can they be?

But on to Christians. I'm a Christian who has nothing against gays. I challenge anyone to show me where Jesus (Not Paul) said homosexuality was wrong. But he did have some pretty specific things to say about killin' as Zoe would say, yet many gay bashing Christians love bombing people. he also spoke at length about the evils of divorce yet no one seems to be talking about a constitutional amendment to ban divorce. wow that got a little off topic...sorry.

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Thursday, March 1, 2007 2:10 PM

WHODIED


Quote:

Originally posted by Agatsu:
I don't believe in any god, but I still consider myself to be a good person - and I don't have any rule book to follow, only my heart. Should I be proven wrong after all and it turns out there IS a god, he can hardly be mad at me, now can he. Too many people are using religion as an excuse for their sh*t and interpreting religious text to fit their agendas and believes. I don't have that excuse, and I don't want to have it. The people whose paths I cross in life are the judges of me, not some god after I die.
Now picture yourself being born into ANY religion, and you disagree with one of the rules (e.g.: gays=bad). Do you change your religion? Nope, you ignore that rule but don't make a big fuzz about it because you don't want any trouble with your fellow worshippers.
On a side note, you can chose your religion, but you can't chose your sexual orientation. Just an observation.




It has been argued that a Godless man who is good is moreso than one motivated by dogmatic piety.

Think:
Morality
for love of
Humanity
not fear of
Divinity

--WhoDied
_______________________

The rapid reproductive rate of our rabbits has given me an idea. I can give the excess out to the townspeople, exchanging them not for goods or services, but for goodwill and the sense of accomplishment that stems from selflessly giving of yourself to others.



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Thursday, March 1, 2007 2:20 PM

SHANNARA


"Laws against homosexual behavior should remain on the books, not to be indiscriminately enforced against anyone who happens to be caught violating them, but to be used when necessary to send a clear message that those who flagrantly violate society's regulation of sexual behavior cannot be permitted to remain as acceptable, equal citizens within that society."

i read the entire thread including links at whedonesque and that's the paragraph that stuck with me throughout. "cannot be permitted to remain as acceptable, equal citizens within that society" - i get a chill just reading that. people don't hate him for his beliefs, they hate him because he wants to put what he considers undesirables into what, labour camps? equating his hatred for homosexuals with their hatred of him is complete and utter nonsense.

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Thursday, March 1, 2007 2:23 PM

EMBERS


Just between you and me (please don't tattle to the Whedonesque mods, cause I don't wanna be banned) they do get into some self-important holier-than-thou crap over there occasionally. I am very sorry you have been hurt by their prejudice and I hope you'll realize it is not representative of everyone who is a member at Whedonesque, as you know it isn't the way people feel here at fff.

It is too bad: they do actually have rules and guidelines about not attacking any individual (but of course opinions expressed can be attacked, but are usually debated with something like polite restraint).

The whole point of the Browncoats/Independents is that we want to allow the individual/minority views to have their place in the sun. We don't need ANY Alliance telling everyone that they must think the same way. I disagree about being Gay being a sin, but of course (like Mal) I'm already a fan of all 7 of those deadly ones!

I hadn't previously looked at that thread but I can see that it is raging out of control as we speak! But regardless of what is said over there, I hope you'll always know that here at fff there isn't some stigma on any religion or on any group of good Browncoats.




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Thursday, March 1, 2007 2:55 PM

CAUSAL


Quote:

Originally posted by Shannara:
equating his hatred for homosexuals with their hatred of him is complete and utter nonsense.



Hatred is hatred is hatred. Don't matter who or what. Somebody does wrong to you so you wrong 'em right back? There's a recipe for hurt.

Edited to add:

I had no idea that he'd made those kinds of statements. Check the original post: I was careful use "as far as I know." Guess now I know. Don't mean I won't still read his works. He remains a pretty decent writer. I just wish that people who hold those more extreme views would realize that legislating morality has a dismal success rate.

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Thursday, March 1, 2007 3:02 PM

WHODIED


The reciprocity of a reaver wanna-be



--WhoDied
_______________________

She made me feel like a human being. That's not the kind of thing you just forgive.



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Thursday, March 1, 2007 3:06 PM

CAUSAL


Wait--are you saying that some hatred is justified and not others? Or that to hate someone back for hating you is "the reciprocity of a reaver wanna-be?"

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Thursday, March 1, 2007 3:13 PM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.


I post this tentatively, because I hope not to offend - I truly do not understand. Maybe it's because I'm not Mormon, or have a higher threshold for bullshit (the duck in water metaphor comes to mind, but I don't think my threshold is that high), or interpret their criticisms differently... but I don't think that they're bashing his Mormonism. I did notice some editing had been done, so I may have been too late to see the offending post(s) (they could have been deleted, too); but from what is left on the site, nothing came to my awareness that was overtly anti-Mormon. I saw stuff about how his Mormonism affected his books (which actually makes sense... that one with the tree (?) people on the other side of the wall, and the other one with that girl and her dad weirded me out) and people didn't like that, or about how his views on homosexuality and acadamia were offensive, but nothing that was "I hate Mormons; stupid homophobes!"

<.< >.>

Um... so, yeah. That's it for now, from me. Gonna walk that way now.

::points her arms like the Scarecrow::


Rules and voting: http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=22892

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Thursday, March 1, 2007 3:13 PM

BLUEEYEDBRIGADIER


It's a sadly frustrating thing to witness the downside of sharing a certain mindset when it comes to how to view things in this work, CK

However, I think the shift in the thread's topic is more about how OSC is on the more zealous end of Mormonism by promoting the need to use violent force to inter and modfiy homosexuals because of their life choices. It's like while I am nominally Protestant (United Church of Canada, to be specific), I don't agree with my church stance on denying anyone from the GLBTQ community from joining their priestly ranks. Or the church's stance on non-heterosexual behaviour in general.

I guess it comes down to the issue people struggling rather obviously and vocally with the idea that a smart fella like OSC, who has written seminal works like Ender's Game can hold beliefs that appear to be counter to what Joss Whedon has promoted in his works. Personally, I think my comment - short as it was - sums up the point that should be made to end the argument: that one can write material that is personally counter-intuitive and one's religious beliefs shouldn't taint the fact one loves Firefly and Serenity

Literature has shown us some of humanity's greatest achievements; history, some of our greatest failures -- Alun Lewis

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Thursday, March 1, 2007 3:21 PM

CALIFORNIAKAYLEE


It's important to quote within context. This comes from http://www.nauvoo.com/library/card-hypocrites.html
Quote:

Within the Church, the young person who experiments with homosexual behavior should be counseled with, not excommunicated. But as the adolescent moves into adulthood and continues to engage in sinful practices far beyond the level of experimentation, then the consequences within the Church must grow more severe and more long-lasting; unfortunately, they may also be more public as well.

This applies also to the polity, the citizens at large. Laws against homosexual behavior should remain on the books, not to be indiscriminately enforced against anyone who happens to be caught violating them, but to be used when necessary to send a clear message that those who flagrantly violate society's regulation of sexual behavior cannot be permitted to remain as acceptable, equal citizens within that society.

The goal of the polity is not to put homosexuals in jail. The goal is to discourage people from engaging in homosexual practices in the first place, and, when they nevertheless proceed in their homosexual behavior, to encourage them to do so discreetly, so as not to shake the confidence of the community in the polity's ability to provide rules for safe, stable, dependable marriage and family relationships.


Check the copyright at the bottom of the page -- 1990. Please also note that this was written for an LDS publication, not for the public at large, or for a political party, or anything of the sort.

I do not agree with OSC's 17 year old stance that the laws of the state should be used to discourage homosexuality, or encourage homosexuality to stay "out of sight, out of mind". But I don't think that makes him a bad person, much less a bad Browncoat.

And where in there does he advocate the use of force to dissuade homosexual behavior?!? He outright says: "The goal of the polity is not to put homosexuals in jail." His goal (17 years ago!!) seems to be a desire to keep homosexuality in the closet, so that the flagrant breaking of laws still on the books (no matter how unconstitutional those laws may be) does not show the law of the state as a whole to be an unenforceable sham. I actually agree with him on this point -- laws should be applied fairly or done away with entirely -- but I come to the opposite conclusion that laws regulating the sexual behavior of consenting adults in private should be stricken from the books entirely.

The problem I had with the posts criticizing OSC over on Whedonesque was not that the posters disagree with OSC's religious/political views. Unlike a recent comment on that thread, I do not think that his political views on homosexuality can be separated from his religious beliefs. People who hold conservative, orthodox religious beliefs, be they Mormons or Evangelical Christians, often apply those beliefs directly to their political views. OSC isn't a Mormon and against gay rights, he's against gay rights (to the extent that he is at all) because he is Mormon.

The problem I have with the Whedonesque posters that they feel that OSC is such a "monster", his views so "wrong", that they want nothing to do with him. They were hanging a sign on the clubhouse door clearly stating "NO MORMONS ALLOWED". And even if it wasn't aimed at Mormonism in particular, the message was still quite clearly: "if you don't agree with our politics, you don't deserve to be a Browncoat."

I'm offended by the idea that a person's religion or political leanings could make them unacceptable to the rest of the group. All I'm looking for is a little respect of views that differ from your own, and a recognition that we are all here because of one thing: a love for Firefly, not a love of a specific political viewpoint. There are political message boards for that, thank you very much.

(Couple of edits.)

~CK

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Thursday, March 1, 2007 4:01 PM

CALIFORNIAKAYLEE


Also wanted to mention, OSC is a professor at Southern Virginia University, so I don't think he's really anti-academia at all. Being that I knew that before I read the article Whedonesque linked to ( http://www.hatrack.com/osc/reviews/everything/2007-02-18.shtml ), when I read this:
Quote:

For it is within science fiction fandom that an entirely new system of critical thought emerged, and even though nowadays the ludicrously inappropriate university-born critical theories are being force-fit onto science fiction, the fact remains that science fiction grew up as a genre in a vibrant critical community consisting of the convention-going, fanzine-publishing readers who shaped the many views of what made this story good and that one bad.
Largely ignored by nonparticipants, science fiction fandom became a self-aware literary community that was far more adaptive, effective, and creative than the one that ossified in the universities during the same period.

I didn't read it as anti-academia, anti-university, or anti-establishment. I read that as praise of a subculture of highly intelligent people, whose literary prowess has been largely overlooked by everyone outside the subculture. Personally, participating in various fandoms has introduced me to more ideas than all but the best of my college courses did, and has forced me to become a better writer.

In any case, I don't think OSC was trying to put down academia, but rather was trying to complement us as a group, by saying that our level of discourse is on par with, if not better than what was taught in universities in years past.

~CK

You can't take the sky from me...

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Thursday, March 1, 2007 7:40 PM

THOLO


It's alway easier ingnore GOD than it is to find him, even for someone like Mal. He had faith but found it easier to loose it then to keep it.

I guess it's a challenge that some people cant take on without destroying it. People alway fear what they dont understand.

Keep your faith, help those you can and for the rest I quote Duke Nukem "Let God sort'em out!"

hehe

Keep Flying!!

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Thursday, March 1, 2007 7:57 PM

SPACEGIRL32


Thank You for taking the time to write out your thoughts. And I do agree with what you are saying.

I also wanted to point out something else I saw a few days ago on the Whedonesque.

Someone posted a link to an "Open Letter" to Nathan Fillion. Some points in the letter were funny, but overall I thought it was very offensive to us Browncoats. It called the huge Nathan fans "crazy" and the like. And it made fun the posters on his myspace page. Finally, the mods deleted the Post. And hopefully, the mods will delete the inappropriate comments soon on this topic.

Browncoats are people from many walks of life. And we all share the same love. That is what makes us so special.


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Thursday, March 1, 2007 9:18 PM

ZEITGEIST


"But the thread on Whedonesque quickly turned to why OSC is a "monster" because of his religious beliefs, with many posters -- including several of the moderators!! -- saying they would not buy any product produced by a Mormon-homophobe like OSC."

You'll excuse me, but NONE of the moderators or admins said any such thing. They said things like:

"You know, it's perfectly possible to discuss someone's work or political views without resorting to name calling. Which is what rjl did early on in the thread. That's not cool. That's what makes threads derail. Talk in a civil way, please."

"The comments about OSC and his personal views have overstepped the mark again.

So post about his views on Firefly or don't. It's as simple as that."

"If I didn't buy things from people I disagreed with I would most certainly be homeless and naked. Don't get me wrong, that has its upsides, but... I think its important that if we consider ourselves to be tolerant folks, we need to also tolerate the intolerant - in fact you get no points for being tolerant of people you agree with, its all about how you react to folks with whom you disagree."

And while some posters said they wouldn't buy anything from someone with whom they disagreed that much (which is certainly their right, but you'll miss a lot of great books/shows that way), there was not much at all made about his Mormon-ness (is that a word?). In the few cases it was specifically brought up it was said by one poster that he sometimes got too preachy and messagey in a specific book and:

"If a Mormon writer whose world view includes a negative opinion of homosexuality can repeatedly offer glowing public praise for the work of an avowed atheist who has made a very strong effort to portray homosexual characters in a positive light, I honestly don't see him as being ALL that close-minded."

I understand having an emotional reaction to something you read/see, but please, take a deep breath and read the thread again. And for anyone reading this thread, please read the thread for yourself and see what was actually said and by whom. OSC is welcome in any clubhouse I hang out in any time.

p.s. - Embers you are SOOOOOOOOOO banned... ;) For the humor-impaired that was a joke.

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Thursday, March 1, 2007 11:13 PM

ODDSBODSKINS


Quote:

Originally posted by Tholo:
It's alway easier ingnore GOD than it is to find him, even for someone like Mal. He had faith but found it easier to loose it then to keep it.

I guess it's a challenge that some people cant take on without destroying it. People alway fear what they dont understand.

Keep your faith, help those you can and for the rest I quote Duke Nukem "Let God sort'em out!"

hehe

Keep Flying!!



Hey now, no call to be attributing their intolerance to their lack of belief. Their intolerance is 'cos they're intolerant, it's not a product of denying any particular faith.

It was probably not your intent to suggest this, but I thought I'd mention it, on the off-chance it was.


edit: Oh, and edited, 'cos I wanted to say about what Causal said, I might not object to seeing Christians burnt at the stake, if there's nothing on the telly, but I'd settle for any other religion too, hell you can burn Atheist's if it's a choice between that or countdown

Do you like bread?

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Friday, March 2, 2007 12:40 AM

SIMONWHO


Quote:

Originally posted by CaliforniaKaylee:
Why can't the Whedonesquers respect Orson Scott Card for his contributions to modern science fiction, even if they disagree with his view on homosexuality?



Some scientific researchers have found evidence that belief in religion is tied to a particular gene - a predisposition to faith if you like.

Now imagine how you would feel if I, purely on the basis that you had a mental illness, you were sick, you were a devient and should be forcibly treated for this sickness against your will. I think you'd be pretty offended.

Racists listen to music performed by black people, anti-semites go to films made by Jews, homophobes watch TV shows written by and starring gay men and women. They can take this little hateful corner of their mind and put it aside and enjoy the song, the movie, the TV show and then they switch back to their beliefs.

I don't think many of us are that different - I think Chinatown is a masterpiece even though I know it's directed by a paedophile rapist. I support a football team that has someone who I'm pretty sure is a racist thug. These are two entirely different things - the art itself and those who made it.

It's perfectly possible to think Ender's Game is the best sci-fi novel ever written and yet to think OSC is a hateful bigot.

I'm not sure what you're really looking for here CaliforniaKaylee. The same right to freedom of speech that allows OSC, rightly or wrongly, to condemn gays as mentally substandard sinners also allows the people of the Whedonesque board to call him a vile pompous bigot. Do you think freedom of speech should only be allowed to those you think suitable?

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Friday, March 2, 2007 2:05 AM

JWHEDONADDICT


I do not post at Whedonesque but I do go to that site pretty frequently. I did not see that thread about this subject before this so I don't know what all was said.

The sad thing is, I probably would've jumped the gun and acted irrationally when I heard someone who says that they feel homosexuality is a sin. I'm not gay, but I understand what it's like to be looked down on for being different (even though what makes you different isn't actually hurting anyone) so I've always been offended when I hear that stuff even though it isn't about me. I've always been particularly offended by the deeply religious because those who are tend to be the loudest about it in my experience. I became just as prejudiced about religion altogether and it has clouded my judgement far more than I'd like to admit. I've never said anything offensive about religion here I don't think, but still I'm sorry that I ever did think that way.

Thank you for helping me to see how wrong I was!



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Friday, March 2, 2007 2:09 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.


CaliforniaKaylee, thanks for taking the time to post your thoughts and concerns. I understand your being upset and the frustration you must be feeling, especially in regards to the Mormon religion. You see, my wife is Mormon and I am not.

Let me state that I am not Mormon because I am not a big fan of organized religion regardless of the church or beliefs. I believe in God, just ain't really God fearing man is all. I have seen things in war and around this world that made me question things, things that no book could answer. Like someone above said, I follow my heart and my own code of conduct and beliefs. I respect those who practice religion and respect their beliefs, but I expect the same courtesy in return if I choose not to participate in a particular religion or church. Sure my wife's Mormon peers have approached me about the faith several times, but I told the bishop and others I am not interested. I explained my stance and the bishop said he understood and made it known to the church to respect my position and they have not pressured me at all. They are kind, caring, and friendly to me and my family, but they know I won't be converting. I disagree with some of the Mormon's beliefs on the government, their beliefs about homosexuality, politics, and the Mormon's persecution of the FLDS and RLDS.

My point is that everyone is entitled to their own opinion, regardless of whether or not we agree with it or if it is uneducated. People want to bash OSC for being a Mormon, that's their right. Personally I don't agree with them and I think they are being ridiculous, but hey, that's their freedom of opinion. Just like I would defend those posters at Whedonesque their opinions and beliefs, so too would I defend OSC's opinions and beliefs, with my life if that is what it came down to.

A lot of people go around spreading their "educated" or morally "superior" opinions, but that doesn't mean I've got to agree with them, like it or even listen to it. People have a right to speak their piece, but they should also respect others differing opinions. Don't much matter who is right or wrong so long as they aren't trying to force their beliefs on others.

In the end we're all browncoats, different views, bigotry or religion aside. We all came together for something special, a show whose underlying message is freedom. That concept extends to more than just our physical forms being free of chains. Freedom is a right we all should share and protect. Let the posters at Whedonesque have their say. Their opinion on OSC's faith and its practices does not make him a "monster" or his works less than they are now. They're just words. I for one appreciate OSC's support of our 'verse and thank him for it.

Take care and keep flyin' CaliforniaKaylee. You're not alone.


__________________________________________
Holding the line since December '02!

[img] [/img]

Richmond, VA & surrounding area Firefly Fans:

http://www.richmondbrowncoats.org

Color Sergeant

[img] [/img]

http://76thbattalion.homestead.com/index.html


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Friday, March 2, 2007 3:47 AM

MAVOURNEEN



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Friday, March 2, 2007 3:50 AM

SHINYED


It's certainly not just Whedonesque...here at FFF we have plenty of our own folks who mock & ridicule ANYTHING resembling traditional & conservative thought. Seems like if you're not out there demonstrating with a sign that says " We hate war criminal & liar Bush's war for oil, or We support illegal alien homosexuals, or Republicans are poisoning the world, or America is the worst country in the world....if you're not a kool-aid drinking, fringe-left web-site indoctrinated mindless lemming....well you get hammered pretty hard right here at FFF just like you saw at Whedonesque.

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Friday, March 2, 2007 3:55 AM

CAUSAL


Quote:

Originally posted by zeitgeist:
I understand having an emotional reaction to something you read/see, but please, take a deep breath and read the thread again. And for anyone reading this thread, please read the thread for yourself and see what was actually said and by whom. OSC is welcome in any clubhouse I hang out in any time.



Just wondering when you checked the thread. The mods over there have done a fair amount of cleaning up. I went over and looked right after CK put up her original post and it was about as bad as she said it was. If you didn't check out the thread until after the mods got busy, it's more likely that you saw a cleaned-up version than that CK is over-reacting.

________________________________________________________________________
Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets

Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police

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Friday, March 2, 2007 3:56 AM

CAUSAL


Quote:

Originally posted by ShinyEd:
It's certainly not just Whedonesque...here at FFF we have plenty of our own folks who mock & ridicule ANYTHING resembling traditional & conservative thought. Seems like if you're not out there demonstrating with a sign that says " We hate war criminal & liar Bush's war for oil, or We support illegal alien homosexuals, or Republicans are poisoning the world, or America is the worst country in the world....if you're not a kool-aid drinking, fringe-left web-site indoctrinated mindless lemming....well you get hammered pretty hard right here at FFF just like you saw at Whedonesque.



Flame bait, for sure, but not totally wrong.

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Friday, March 2, 2007 4:03 AM

MAVOURNEEN



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Friday, March 2, 2007 4:07 AM

ZEITGEIST


I was in the thread for most of this, and I am the moderator who posted (two admins also posted). There were only a few edits, and only one of those was to remove inflammatory language and name-calling:

http://whedonesque.com/comments/12598#164633

And none of that changes the fact that CK posted saying that multiple mods and admins were Mormon bashing and OSC bashing, which is flat out false.

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Friday, March 2, 2007 4:17 AM

SHINYED


Quote:

Originally posted by Mavourneen:
Again, ShinyEd, I must ask...where's the tolerance in that? ...Speaking for no one but myself, I tend to stay out of the RWED because of the casual disregard for other people's viewpoints that is down there.



My point exactly! Why should you or anyone feel like they need to "stay out" of any area of FFF? The reason is that even "tolerant" people such as myself become frustrated and upset with the juvenile & vile antics that occur there frequently, and lately I don't go there....what's the point? You cannot engage in a civil debate, or even just post your OPINION with folks there who seem to be plugged into Wikipedia or Bush sucks.com as their sole sources for all their "beliefs."

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Friday, March 2, 2007 4:26 AM

CAUSAL


Quote:

Originally posted by Mavourneen:
Again, ShinyEd, I must ask...where's the tolerance in that? A liberal Browncoat and a Conservative Browncoat and a Mormon Browncoat and a Wiccan Browncoat are all wearing the same color. It is why we are here, on this site.



Unfortunately, the "we're all wearing the same color" thing only seems to really work when actually bullets start flying.

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Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police

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Friday, March 2, 2007 4:28 AM

KANEMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by ShinyEd:
It's certainly not just Whedonesque...here at FFF we have plenty of our own folks who mock & ridicule ANYTHING resembling traditional & conservative thought. Seems like if you're not out there demonstrating with a sign that says " We hate war criminal & liar Bush's war for oil, or We support illegal alien homosexuals, or Republicans are poisoning the world, or America is the worst country in the world....if you're not a kool-aid drinking, fringe-left web-site indoctrinated mindless lemming....well you get hammered pretty hard right here at FFF just like you saw at Whedonesque.




Shinyed, what you just wrote is so true. Just ask Auraptor. There is a way out of the trouble though, you can always forget your conservative ideology, every conservative value, and all the common sense your parents instilled in you {or you picked up along the way} and become a blabbering liberal sheeple. Then you could happily move to San Francisco and become a bath-house attendant with a lisp.

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Friday, March 2, 2007 4:30 AM

MAVOURNEEN


Zeitgeist - agreed...and a duplicate post to yours over at whedonesque.

Perhaps CK assumed more of the posters are Mods/Admins?
Can't say for sure - but you are correct in pointing out that the comments did not come from Whedonesque mods and admins.

EDIT: I've deleted my previous comments...and not because I feel I was wrong, but because I'm really done with the intolerance. I just don't want to be a part of this, and am removing myself forthwith.


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Friday, March 2, 2007 4:40 AM

ZEITGEIST


I can totally understand getting confused when you are that upset/frustrated, I've done the same thing. Just wanted it to be clear that this behavior does not have the support/agreement of the moderation and administration crew :)

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Friday, March 2, 2007 4:42 AM

SHINYED


Quote:

Originally posted by kaneman:
.... There is a way out of the trouble though, you can always forget your conservative ideology, every conservative value, and all the common sense your parents instilled in you {or you picked up along the way} and become a blabbering liberal sheeple. Then you could happily move to San Francisco and become a bath-house attendant with a lisp.



Kaneman...LOL!..that's classic!

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Friday, March 2, 2007 4:48 AM

DEADLOCKVICTIM


I certainly do not condone bigotry, racism, or infringement of any persons right to their belief, but I sometimes find it hard to understand how some folks decide what path to follow. I was raised in a religious home and was taught a set of beliefs as prescribed by that particular religion. I have taken a more secular approach in my adult life.

I have read a bit about Mormonism, know members of LDS and we have had a few discussions about the religion. I can’t buy it. So many things about that sect seem wrong to me. As examples I give you the Mountain Meadows massacre or the incredible account of modern day Mormons in the book Under the Banner of Heaven by Jon Krakauer.

I do not and will not discriminate against someone based on their beliefs, but I still reserve the right to form my on opinions. I see too many people these days being influenced in the name of religion and often they simply follow the crowd instead of learning all facts surrounding the belief. As has so often been stated, so many people have died in the name of religion that you have to truly wonder if there is indeed any divine entity or if this is a planet that will eventually be consumed by man’s inhumanity to man.

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Friday, March 2, 2007 4:58 AM

GRIZWALD


Browncoats are people, and people are flawed.



___________________________________________________
High Priestess of Pork and Ag-Related Activities of the MYTHICAL LAND OF IOWA



Click on my profile for my Annoyingly Long List of Firefly Links.

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Friday, March 2, 2007 6:40 AM

SPACEGIRL32


Browncoat1

Well said. Thank You. I think we can end the discussion with your post.

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Friday, March 2, 2007 8:09 AM

WHODIED


Quote:

Originally posted by Causal:
Wait--are you saying that some hatred is justified and not others? Or that to hate someone back for hating you is "the reciprocity of a reaver wanna-be?"



The latter...ish. I posted this before you edited your original remark and then was forcibly removed from the computer. She was mumbling darkly-something about intervention-and I, as I do know what's good for me, obeyed. Alas, (a sweet lass!) she eyes me even now, as it is b-e-a-utiful here in Virginia Beach and I apparently have agreed to an outing in the park...

What I meant to imply is that for some, the only answer to such darkness is to become it.

It is possible that to kill is justifiable, but not, I think, to hate. That leads to the dark side, to revenge, which is by definition not justice, and so unjustifiable. Also, to be hated by one group, and to in turn hate some other, that's when the victim becomes the reaver.

I wish I could continue. Perhaps another time, another thread...

Until then- tautology!



--WhoDied
_______________________

She made me feel like a human being. That's not the kind of thing you just forgive.



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Friday, March 2, 2007 8:15 AM

FUTUREMRSFILLION


Quote:

Originally posted by kaneman:
Quote:

Originally posted by ShinyEd:
It's certainly not just Whedonesque...here at FFF we have plenty of our own folks who mock & ridicule ANYTHING resembling traditional & conservative thought. Seems like if you're not out there demonstrating with a sign that says " We hate war criminal & liar Bush's war for oil, or We support illegal alien homosexuals, or Republicans are poisoning the world, or America is the worst country in the world....if you're not a kool-aid drinking, fringe-left web-site indoctrinated mindless lemming....well you get hammered pretty hard right here at FFF just like you saw at Whedonesque.




Shinyed, what you just wrote is so true. Just ask Auraptor. There is a way out of the trouble though, you can always forget your conservative ideology, every conservative value, and all the common sense your parents instilled in you {or you picked up along the way} and become a blabbering liberal sheeple. Then you could happily move to San Francisco and become a bath-house attendant with a lisp.




Up the dosage.


----
Bestower of Titles, Designer of Tshirts, Maker of Mottos, Keeper of the Pyre, Owner of a too big Turnippy smelling coat with MR scratched in the neck (thanks FollowMal!)

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

FORSAKEN original


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Friday, March 2, 2007 8:46 AM

SHANNARA


FutureMrsFillion, don't get into a battle of wits with them gorramn it, can't you see they are unarmed?

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