GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

dam fecking torrents

POSTED BY: IRISHBROWNCOAT
UPDATED: Sunday, November 26, 2006 14:08
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 2002
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Friday, November 24, 2006 9:59 AM

IRISHBROWNCOAT


was chatting to some work mates the other about tv shows and as i do as often as i can i brought up the o so great firefly/BDM...and most never heard of it bar one guy whos said ya it was ok...

and i thought oo kool a fellow browncoat...
he then went and said ya i downloaded the whole season off a torrent just got the movie the other day too. then goes to tell the others were to find the torrents to download them from..

my jaw was hitting the floor... i tryed to tell him the errors of his way and how they dont cost the earth to buy and realy it was such a great show that you should support he wasnt having any of it he was just like huh why pay for it when i can get it for free...
it was no hope

i went searching on the net and was scared how many firefly torrents there were for downloads i just couldnt belive it :(....
so i came up with this idea..
i was going a few torrents of my on some time soon.
so was wanting to ask my fellow browncoats here what i said but in them torrents.
now i dont want any thing like virius or things to cause too much damage
what i was thinking was maybe
about 1g of gay porn? or
loads of spyware programs or
a exe when once open it makes this firefly.net the homepage and opens a link to amamzon page showing firefly season 1?
it have to be large due to has to look like the real thing... not sure how many i will make but i want to make it so
people think twice about downloading firefly torrents incase they are buged

now the whole issue of torrents i know is odd some peeps for other against.
and hear me on this i have used torrents before to get to see shows that on usa but not shown over here yet. but once they do come to these shores i do watch them again and most times end up buying the dvd boxsets ie battlestar galactica.
and if thinking of getting a box set dvd(which are not cheap) will download poilet episode to see if its any good then buy...

but if my workmate done it i am sure there are tones of peeps who have 2.
and with the sales numbers for the BDM how many have done this instead of getting the dvd
makes me feel sad inside....

Lets Be Bad Guys...........

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Friday, November 24, 2006 10:32 AM

AYRAD


Well, while I understand and agree with the fact that it's vital to increase the sales of both BDM and BDS in order to still hope for a sequel I have to say this: I'm in Italy and Firefly has never been shown here (only on pay per view channels last springtime) on public television. I've become a Browncoat on October 2005. Was curious about the show mostly because I was interested in Adam Baldwin. Found some torrents and downloaded the eps, fell in love with the show and immediately bought the DVD Box set from Amazon UK. Then I bought the BDM, comics and books...
Haven't had the opportunity to watch the show from Internet in first place I would have probably never seen the show yet! It's true. I would have never risked to buy an entire series on DVD without knowing if it was worth for in advance.
Sometimes torrents can be a useful way to promote movies or shows, and a true follower always ends up buying the originals anyway.


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Friday, November 24, 2006 10:43 AM

IRISHBROWNCOAT


that is true but i still cant belive peeps would download whole season ... understand maybe only doing one episode to see if its ok..

hench i am only going to make a torrent for flim and whole season..

and getting a torrent just for the flim is a crime its only about 9 pounds in uk at mo!
and the dvd box set can be found for around 15 pounds

Lets Be Bad Guys...........

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Friday, November 24, 2006 11:33 AM

SIGMANUNKI


@Ayrad:

I'm along the same lines as well. Not that I downloaded the series or movie (bought and christmas respectively), but I have bought more than just a few things by first finding them on the torrents.


@IrishBrowncoat:

And what do you think the prison sentence is for planting spyware/trogans/etc on someones computer? People are going to jail for that you know.

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Friday, November 24, 2006 11:52 AM

TRAVELER


I am not sure what a torrent is IrishBrowncoat, but it sounds illegal. Instead of attacking them, you may want to report them to Fox. Fox owns the rights and I'm sure they would want to stop them as much as you do. After all it is Fox who they are stealing from. Of course this may get you friends in trouble if Fox learns who downloaded them. But attacking them could cause you trouble. I understand your anger. I bought mine, fair and legal. And if I were to download a movie it would be through a legitimate website. In that case, I'm sure there would be a fee. So don't do anything rash that might bite you in the ass. Stay within the law and use it to support your cause.


Traveler

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Friday, November 24, 2006 12:12 PM

IRISHBROWNCOAT


dont know what a torrent is check this out
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BitTorrent

and tell fox etc will do nothing as there is little they can do about it...
suppose right about been wrong to send them loads of spyware etc but still makes my blood boil grrr

Lets Be Bad Guys...........

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Friday, November 24, 2006 12:19 PM

THEFIREFLYSERENITY


I kick my self daily because I’m guilty of downloading the movie and the series. I didn’t download them out of blatant disregard for the law or the creators or anything though. Unfortunately I was unable to work and therefore earn the money to buy them because I was going through a deep, deep depression and I didn’t leave the house for like a year and everything and watching the TV and listening to music was like a coping mechanism. I’m not making any excuses I’m just explaining the situation, it was wrong to download but for me it really, really led to a great thing! I absolutely fell in love with BDM and BDS hook, like and singer and they really helped me out. Anyways as soon as I was able to work again I immediately bought the BDM and BDS on DVD. I have also bought the comic and part one of the visual companion for the series and part two is pre ordered and I also got the one for the movie! I even went as far as buying and selling the series on DVD and one day I hope to open my own kinda memorabilia retail store for Sci Fi shows and movies! So really those torrents lead me to love the show, lead me to feel better and ultimately I have shown my support for Whendon’s genius and will continue to do so. I can’t wait for the other comics to come out! The way I see it is that it doesn’t matter what brought me to Firefly/Serenity its just that I was brought to it!

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Friday, November 24, 2006 12:22 PM

IRISHBROWNCOAT


that is great and i realy hope thats the case for most but as was shown by my work mate there has to be many out there who just download it and then thats it.

this guy i work with downloaded every thing he realy is why pay for it when you can get it free state of mind.

he even got a hack version of a good new game called sam and max and that only costs about 10dollors online crazy!.

Lets Be Bad Guys...........

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Friday, November 24, 2006 1:24 PM

SILENCE


Quote:

Originally posted by traveler:
I am not sure what a torrent is IrishBrowncoat, but it sounds illegal. Instead of attacking them, you may want to report them to Fox. Fox owns the rights and I'm sure they would want to stop them as much as you do. After all it is Fox who they are stealing from. Of course this may get you friends in trouble if Fox learns who downloaded them. But attacking them could cause you trouble. I understand your anger. I bought mine, fair and legal. And if I were to download a movie it would be through a legitimate website. In that case, I'm sure there would be a fee. So don't do anything rash that might bite you in the ass. Stay within the law and use it to support your cause.


Traveler



That could bring up the whole Napster thing again.

***************************************************
"Listen, if you got guests I can come back later."

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Friday, November 24, 2006 1:46 PM

TRAVELER


Wow IrishBrowncoat! After reading some of Wikipepia on torrents I know why I didn't get into that line of work. Way over my head.

I can see trying to disrupt one torrent is not going to put a dent in the volume of others that must exist.

I just hope that as people discover what Firefly is and what it means to be a Browncoat they use legal ways of obtaining the show and movie.

I see your anger when someone who has the money uses this method. Sad to say there will always be people like them. But for every person like that there is a person, who, in their heart are Browncoats, even if they have not seen the show. There are people who do the right thing. And for them we have this fansite so they can discover they are not alone.




Traveler

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Friday, November 24, 2006 2:06 PM

IRISHBROWNCOAT


Quote:

That could bring up the whole Napster thing again.

unlike napster torrents dont have a one home.take one site down 250 others waiting to take their place.

kinda like that greek monster cut one head off 2more grow in its place



Lets Be Bad Guys...........

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Friday, November 24, 2006 2:25 PM

SILENCE


Quote:

Originally posted by IrishBrowncoat:
Quote:

That could bring up the whole Napster thing again.

unlike napster torrents dont have a one home.take one site down 250 others waiting to take their place.

kinda like that greek monster cut one head off 2more grow in its place


Lets Be Bad Guys...........



Hydra.
And yeah, you have a good point.

***************************************************
"Listen, if you got guests I can come back later."

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Saturday, November 25, 2006 12:13 AM

WUERTTEMBERGER


There's no way to stop file sharing. If there was the industry would have done.

Besides my story's similar to ayrad's. I'm from Germany where Firefly's never been aired. First I saw Serenity. Thought it's pretty cool and after watching Joss Whedon's comment I was really impressed. After a while I rent the DVD once again because I couldn't get it out of my head.
This time I totally got hooked: I must watch the TV show! So I downloaded the complete season via torrent. Took me a short time to watch all episodes and right after I bought the DVD set and the movie.
I'm pretty sure that most people act the same after they know the background around the show.
Some don't of course. But I'm convinced that it is the minority.
In my opinion (and in this case!) torrents have a positive effect.

Viele Gruesse
Wuerttemberger

-----------------------------------
Shiny hair's my life ambition.

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Saturday, November 25, 2006 4:21 AM

KANEMAN


I download about 3 gigs of material a day from torrents. Why do you care? Who made you the pirate slayer? Oh, and your idea would never work. People will check content before "finishing" the torrent. And don't be surprised when they publish your 'computer ip' on the net so pirates can enact revenge. Never mess with hackers....unless of coarse you enjoy abuse.
Ever tape a show, make a copy of a cd or cassette, or borrow someones movie? You to are a pirate........

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Saturday, November 25, 2006 7:28 AM

SIGMANUNKI


I am obviously similar in mentality to some of the above posters. Namely, I know that the torrents have a positive effect and I'm not convinced that the negative effect is even close to that in which the industry says it is. But, in the interest of snuffing out fud.


Quote:

Originally posted by kaneman:

I download about 3 gigs of material a day from torrents. Why do you care?




IB never said anything about torrents in general. (S)he just stated interest in stop the torrents that are FF/S. His/Her caring is obvious when put in context.


Quote:

Originally posted by kaneman:

Oh, and your idea would never work. People will check content before "finishing" the torrent.




Actually, no-one does this. The only time that this would "work" is if people saw that the torrent contained an .exe and choose not to run it. Then again, most would if the creator of the torrent said that it was a self extracting archive. And actually, most would probably run it anyway, just like most run/ran .exe's in emails.

But, there are more attack vectors than that. Such as a problems with the implementation of the libs that read jpg's/png's/etc and various movie formats. So, how exactly are most/all people going to be able to analyse the files before playing? They won't b/c they aren't aware of any problems b/c the vast majority of people don't know what security is never mind keeping track of vulnerabilities. Never mind that such tools rarely exist for anywhere near current exploits.

Basically, to say that people downloading have the technical savy to be able to check things, to say that people downloading will take the time to check things, ignores the inherent characteristics of people in general and the technological limitations in this reality.


Quote:

Originally posted by kaneman:

And don't be surprised when they publish your 'computer ip' on the net so pirates can enact revenge. Never mess with hackers....unless of coarse you enjoy abuse.




First off, I doubt that all but a few people would be capable of doing this. And even if they were, the original uploader would have to still be in the swarm. Not to mention the whole problem of dynamic IP adresses. So, that published IP, would most likely be useless in short order. There's also hitting the wrong target if someone else has gotten the target IP.

Secondly, you're assuming that people are capable of enacting revenge (which is far from reality even IF the IP was still valid AND the original uploader was still connected). There is also the "problem" that a lot of people have routers to share the inet to the household. So, those malicious packets would most likely be blocked. This would also render TCP finger-printing (and most if not all reconnaissance) null.

So, abuse is rather unlikely to say the least. The most likely thing that would happen, would be that the torrent would be deleted from the site and the user banned.


Quote:

Originally posted by kaneman:

Ever tape a show, make a copy of a cd or cassette, or borrow someones movie? You to are a pirate........




This is just BS. Taping a show and making a personal copy of a CD or cassette is covered under fair use rights. It IS perfectly legal. Also, borrowing a movie from someone is also perfectly legal.

It is when you start distributing/profiting that the line is crossed (in most countries).

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Saturday, November 25, 2006 7:42 AM

GEEKMAFIA


Quote:

Originally posted by IrishBrowncoat:
that is true but i still cant belive peeps would download whole season ... understand maybe only doing one episode to see if its ok.



It's not too difficult to believe IMO. If they can get it free, without much chance of legal penalty, why pay?

Quote:

Originally posted by Kaneman
Never mess with hackers



I'd doubt these guys, or the majority of people using torrents, are "hackers" it doesn't require any real expertise to do and it's relatively well known to most internet users.

That said I would advise against your "revenge" plan IB mainly because it's just an annoying thing to do. at best you'll piss someone off slightly and at worst you might be on the receiving end of hassle because of it.

your co-worker who used the torrents probably wouldn't have watched the show if he had to buy it anyway so I guess you just have to decide which is worse, watching the show illegally or never seeing it? it might be worth noting even just loaning your dvd's to someone is illegal and not all that different to torrenting them.




http://midknight.wilson.googlepages.com/home

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Saturday, November 25, 2006 7:51 AM

GEEKMAFIA


Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Also, borrowing a movie from someone is also perfectly legal.



I'm not so sure it is, even if you're not profiting. It's so small scale companies would never pursue it but it is illegal iirc.




http://midknight.wilson.googlepages.com/home

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Saturday, November 25, 2006 11:09 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


Too many tools in here......

Where to start?

Firstly, if you were to put gay porn on a torrent, the first person who downloaded it would report that to the tracker and anyone smart enough to read the notes before downloading a large file would know that it was gay porn almost immediately after you did it, and those who didn't diserve what they get.

Secondly, what you're talking about doing is a failed scam that the RIAA, MPAA and record companies have already tried and failed to carry out to protect their content. Trust me man... they have a lot of high paid thinkers in those organizations and you're not the first person to think about this. If it could be done, you would have downloaded gay porn when you downloaded that pilot episode of Battlestar.

Thirdly, there are a LOT of people who cannot afford to buy TV shows on DVD and TV and nothing you can do will EVER convince them to pay for things they can get for FREE, save serious prison time or casturation. Then you're talking about real "butt-lovin" prison time or sueing somebody into poverty for morale crimes which ultimately hurt no-one, not to mention all of the illegal search and seizures which will be taking place in people's houses while they're not at home, thus raising our taxes to pay for more police manpower to get that job done. If you steal a loaf of bread, the loaf of bread is gone. If you "steal" a movie or a TV show, it's just a bunch of "1s" and "0s" on your harddrive and there's nobody in showbusiness that's starving (at least the successful ones behind anything that you could ever care to download in the first place). I really tired of Lars's fat old has-been rockin' ass complaining about people downloading his lame old Metallica songs quickly when Ben Fold's Five were giving their songs away on their website at the same time.

And lastly, with all due respet to all of you, may I say that you sound like a member of the RIAA or the MPAA yourself... as do all of the people in here that agree with you on this issue. Were you all rooting for the Alliance the whole time you were watching the show, or is it just that when you leave Neverland you become a capitalistic pig authoritarian rat-fink-do-gooder again?

The only reason you're paying $9.99 per CD this Christmas on average is because of the so called "criminals" who have left the behemoth record companies no choice but to lower their prices to be competetive with FREE. Anyone over 18 should remember days before Napster when CDs cost $17 - $25 /pc. Remember that the next time you're so quick to judge what somebody else does.

"Piracy" will never end as long as there is criminal capitalistic conglomerates controlling the content that happen to have the criminal Legal System and criminal Government backing them. The American Government, in particular, is the largest organised crime we've ever seen as a race, and all too soon I'm afraid, NATO will be even larger.

No matter what they do, they will never stop the signal. I know you feel you have a crusade here to save the movie, on this particular issue you are sorely misdirected. Besides, I think they've whored us out quite long enough. It's time for them to put out a new BDM or for Joss to come out himself and say something once and for all and stop stringing us along. We diserve that after what they've been doing to the 3rd party vendors who were recently turned on and crushed for doing the very thing they were encouraged to do before the first BDM came out. It doesn't seem as though any of the actors are wasting any time finding other projects.

I don't care how somebody got the show or the movie, if it touched their lives and spoke to them the way that it did to me, that's what really matters.

And may they pass that on to someone else who needs hope that maybe there is a way to coexist with the Alliance without being completely absorbed by them. And don't come back to me about the Alliance not being real. If you can't see the parallels in real life today than of course you have no idea what I'm talking about and Firefly was nothing more than fantasy to you.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Saturday, November 25, 2006 11:26 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Taping a show and making a personal copy of a CD or cassette is covered under fair use rights. It IS perfectly legal...

It is when you start distributing/profiting that the line is crossed (in most countries).



Wrong buddy.... Don't know what country you're from, but they changed the FBI warning here in the States.

For anybody interested in reading the new warning, just in case you've never felt the need to read them seeing as how you're all such upstanding, law-abiding citizen yourselves:

"The unauthorized reproduction or distribution of this copyrighted work is illegal. Criminal copyright infringement, including infringement without monetary gain, is investigated by the FBI and is punishable by up to five years in federal prison and a fine of $250,000."

So simply taping a song off the radio you don't own, a TV show off the telly you don't own or "borrowing" a copy of a CD to a friend is an illegal act punishable by up to five years in federal "butt-rape" prison or $250,000.

Don't know about you, but it would take me at least 25 years after basic living expenses to save that kind of cash, and I'm a pretty frugal guy. Not to mention anyone who's downloaded one thing on the net has undoubtedly downloaded 2, or 20, or 200, or 2000, or 20,000 things. I'm pretty sure there are people who have never collected a cent off of this downloading, but according to this copyright warning, Bill Gates would be hard up to cover thier fines.

Absolutely rediculous....

And look at fracking China. All of the computer programs their businesses use were downloaded off of torrents. Maybe if we went after them for copyright infringement first then we wouldn't owe them so much damn money and they wouldn't be able to afford all that gas and our prices at the pump would go back down.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Sunday, November 26, 2006 3:30 AM

WHOISRIVER


The only reason Firefly and Serenity exists is because advertisers paid for it, viewers watched it (or not, as the case turned out to be) and DVDs were bought.

Like it or not, Firefly is a product of capitalism AND creativy. The person who ran the show, Joss Whedon, was on an 8 figure deal with the studio at the time. The pilot episode cost $8.9m. The movie cost $40m, plus about $60m in advertising (globally). The reason the show isn't continuing is that not enough people saw it or picked up the dvds. It didn't turn a profit.

So, put simply, if you want to support bootlegging -- which, by the way, I actually mostly support in many cases -- you can't complain about there being no more episodes.

As to if there will be a sequel - uhm, not so much. The cast fall out of contract shortly, and Universal haven't picked up their options to renew 'em. It's a shame.

As for the matter at hand, IrishBrowncoat, one of the torrent sites alone at the minute has 29 million people downloading stuff. There's not much that can be done about it, really - it's up to the copyright holders to exercise their rights if they want to, and sue some 12 year old for $543059430m.

In all of this, there's a business world and a fantasy world. Joss and ourselves very much live in the fantasy world. The world of the show. The reality of the show is these are a bunch of 9 (or 7 now) loosers on a ship who are running from the world. That's also us. They don't tend to like the Alliance, and refuse to just give up on things. Also us.

Then there's the business world. The real world. In that world, the show is about appealing to mass numbers of people and making shit loads of money. If people stand in the way of that world - where people finance the fantasy world - the fantasy world ceases to exist as they are both interconnected and interdependent.

Hey, this post is bought to you by the letters W-A-N-K.

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Sunday, November 26, 2006 2:05 PM

KANEMAN


"But, there are more attack vectors than that. Such as a problems with the implementation of the libs that read jpg's/png's/etc and various movie formats. So, how exactly are most/all people going to be able to analyse the files before playing? They won't b/c they aren't aware of any problems b/c the vast majority of people don't know what security is never mind keeping track of vulnerabilities. Never mind that such tools rarely exist for anywhere near current exploits."

Happens all the time. Go to piratebay or isohunt. they will tell you in 5min of uploading that a file is fake, infected, or misnamed.....Don't no how. I have been warned of bad files daily and have never gotten any spyware or viruses because of it....


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Sunday, November 26, 2006 2:08 PM

KANEMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Too many tools in here......

Where to start?

Firstly, if you were to put gay porn on a torrent, the first person who downloaded it would report that to the tracker and anyone smart enough to read the notes before downloading a large file would know that it was gay porn almost immediately after you did it, and those who didn't diserve what they get.

Secondly, what you're talking about doing is a failed scam that the RIAA, MPAA and record companies have already tried and failed to carry out to protect their content. Trust me man... they have a lot of high paid thinkers in those organizations and you're not the first person to think about this. If it could be done, you would have downloaded gay porn when you downloaded that pilot episode of Battlestar.

Thirdly, there are a LOT of people who cannot afford to buy TV shows on DVD and TV and nothing you can do will EVER convince them to pay for things they can get for FREE, save serious prison time or casturation. Then you're talking about real "butt-lovin" prison time or sueing somebody into poverty for morale crimes which ultimately hurt no-one, not to mention all of the illegal search and seizures which will be taking place in people's houses while they're not at home, thus raising our taxes to pay for more police manpower to get that job done. If you steal a loaf of bread, the loaf of bread is gone. If you "steal" a movie or a TV show, it's just a bunch of "1s" and "0s" on your harddrive and there's nobody in showbusiness that's starving (at least the successful ones behind anything that you could ever care to download in the first place). I really tired of Lars's fat old has-been rockin' ass complaining about people downloading his lame old Metallica songs quickly when Ben Fold's Five were giving their songs away on their website at the same time.

And lastly, with all due respet to all of you, may I say that you sound like a member of the RIAA or the MPAA yourself... as do all of the people in here that agree with you on this issue. Were you all rooting for the Alliance the whole time you were watching the show, or is it just that when you leave Neverland you become a capitalistic pig authoritarian rat-fink-do-gooder again?

The only reason you're paying $9.99 per CD this Christmas on average is because of the so called "criminals" who have left the behemoth record companies no choice but to lower their prices to be competetive with FREE. Anyone over 18 should remember days before Napster when CDs cost $17 - $25 /pc. Remember that the next time you're so quick to judge what somebody else does.

"Piracy" will never end as long as there is criminal capitalistic conglomerates controlling the content that happen to have the criminal Legal System and criminal Government backing them. The American Government, in particular, is the largest organised crime we've ever seen as a race, and all too soon I'm afraid, NATO will be even larger.

No matter what they do, they will never stop the signal. I know you feel you have a crusade here to save the movie, on this particular issue you are sorely misdirected. Besides, I think they've whored us out quite long enough. It's time for them to put out a new BDM or for Joss to come out himself and say something once and for all and stop stringing us along. We diserve that after what they've been doing to the 3rd party vendors who were recently turned on and crushed for doing the very thing they were encouraged to do before the first BDM came out. It doesn't seem as though any of the actors are wasting any time finding other projects.

I don't care how somebody got the show or the movie, if it touched their lives and spoke to them the way that it did to me, that's what really matters.

And may they pass that on to someone else who needs hope that maybe there is a way to coexist with the Alliance without being completely absorbed by them. And don't come back to me about the Alliance not being real. If you can't see the parallels in real life today than of course you have no idea what I'm talking about and Firefly was nothing more than fantasy to you.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack




My name is kaneman and I support this message.

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DISCUSSIONS
76th Independent Battalion Part 48
Sun, May 31, 2020 14:07 - 2113 posts
To any new folk, I apologize for there being incels on this board.
Wed, May 20, 2020 06:02 - 29 posts
Emoji Museum
Tue, May 19, 2020 01:16 - 69 posts
Escape From Tarkov, new hotfixes to patch 0.12.4: here are the various changes
Mon, March 30, 2020 21:12 - 1 posts
Host a CSTS 2020 Event! Registration is now Open!
Sun, March 15, 2020 13:40 - 1 posts
War Of The Worlds on Epix
Fri, March 13, 2020 10:58 - 26 posts
Real Estate...Vampire...Brides. Uh, ok?
Wed, March 4, 2020 14:46 - 1 posts
Thread of GIFs
Sun, March 1, 2020 15:27 - 8 posts
Thread of Font Colors
Sun, February 9, 2020 14:50 - 24 posts
Prodigal Son
Tue, February 4, 2020 03:50 - 5 posts
Has the FDA been complicit in intentionally mutating us??
Mon, February 3, 2020 20:11 - 33 posts
Suprise
Tue, January 28, 2020 15:40 - 2 posts

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