GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

'Captain Daddy' canon or fanon?

POSTED BY: ALPHERATZ
UPDATED: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 11:42
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Monday, November 13, 2006 2:05 AM

ALPHERATZ


Ok so maybe I am just being dim, but is River calling Mal 'Captain Daddy' something I just missed during the series (or movie), or is it a convention that fanfic writers have taken on? I admit i am a slight 'johnie come lately' to this 'verse and this question may have been answered before, but if you could humour me a little I would love to have this question answered.


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Monday, November 13, 2006 2:20 AM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.


In my opinion, it's mostly fanon, but there's a bit of canon to it.
In "Safe" River says to Simon that "Daddy will come and take us home" and in the comentary Joss said that the episode kind of established Mal as a father figure and Serenity as home. Perhaps this is where the idea of 'Captain Daddy' comes from.


[]

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Monday, November 13, 2006 2:38 AM

AGENTROUKA


It's like Phoenixrose says.

The phrase "Captain Daddy" is fanon (and weird, in my opinion) but the concept of Mal as a father figure to River is canon from "Safe".

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Monday, November 13, 2006 3:17 AM

XEYRA


Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
It's like Phoenixrose says.

The phrase "Captain Daddy" is fanon (and weird, in my opinion) but the concept of Mal as a father figure to River is canon from "Safe".


I hate the term Captain Daddy with a passion. It's just... silly.

As for Mal as a father figure, yes, he seems to be, though you cannot take River's words in Safe as her calling Mal daddy so straightforward, without a grain of salt, considering River has a different way of seeing things and her words cannot always be fully interpreted. Especially because, in this same episode, she says to Mal in the beginning, when she's having her fit on Serenity, "you're not him", which seems to be referring to him not being their father... So, I'm not ever sure she is talking about Mal when she says 'daddy will come', but Mal does seem to be a father figure to her. And he's the captain! Authority figure as well. :)

Edit: And Joss says so. :)

But Captain Daddy is fanon and, in my humble opinion, a fanon term that makes me cringe every time I read it on a fanfic.



"People tell you things all the time, without talking. The way they move, the way they aren't talking." - River Tam

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Monday, November 13, 2006 3:36 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by Xeyra:
Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
It's like Phoenixrose says.

The phrase "Captain Daddy" is fanon (and weird, in my opinion) but the concept of Mal as a father figure to River is canon from "Safe".


I hate the term Captain Daddy with a passion. It's just... silly.

As for Mal as a father figure, yes, he seems to be, though you cannot take River's words in Safe as her calling Mal daddy so straightforward, without a grain of salt, considering River has a different way of seeing things and her words cannot always be fully interpreted. Especially because, in this same episode, she says to Mal in the beginning, when she's having her fit on Serenity, "you're not him", which seems to be referring to him not being their father... So, I'm not ever sure she is talking about Mal when she says 'daddy will come', but Mal does seem to be a father figure to her. And he's the captain! Authority figure as well. :)




I think the "Daddy will come" reference is pretty clear, actually, considering the surrounding circumstances. The "You're not him" on the other hand doesn't have that direct context, since River's interaction with Simon at that point centers mostly around medical tests and her frustration with the entire world. It could be any "him" she means, ranging from their father to the scientists who hurt her.

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Monday, November 13, 2006 3:44 AM

XEYRA


Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
I think the "Daddy will come" reference is pretty clear, actually, considering the surrounding circumstances. The "You're not him" on the other hand doesn't have that direct context, since River's interaction with Simon at that point centers mostly around medical tests and her frustration with the entire world. It could be any "him" she means, ranging from their father to the scientists who hurt her.


And yet, when River is talking with Simon, she's talking about the past, what Simon lost, what he gave up for her, so it's also possible she is referring to her father, and she might not even be directly talking about daddy coming for them there, where they are, but in the future. Though she may also be referring to Mal as a father figure. What River says may not always be straightforward and is open to various interpretations. :)




"People tell you things all the time, without talking. The way they move, the way they aren't talking." - River Tam

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Monday, November 13, 2006 3:59 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by Xeyra:
And yet, when River is talking with Simon, she's talking about the past, what Simon lost, what he gave up for her, so it's also possible she is referring to her father, and she might not even be directly talking about daddy coming for them there, where they are, but in the future. Though she may also be referring to Mal as a father figure. What River says may not always be straightforward and is open to various interpretations. :)



Well, theoretically, she could be talking about the Easter Bunny, alright, but within the context of the episode it's a very obvious metaphor, especially since it's at first played as a misdirection, making it appear as if she is talking about their father (aided by Simon's reaction to that line), but then combined with the "Time to go" premonition it's pretty straight forward that she means Mal (not to mention all the rest of the episode that parallels and contrasts the theme of parental abandonment) and it requires some effort and deliberation to read it differently.

None of River's episodes are actually that hard to interpret, even the hair incident, so reading too much complexity into them is not really necessary.

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Monday, November 13, 2006 4:04 AM

XEYRA


Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Quote:

Originally posted by Xeyra:
Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
And yet, when River is talking with Simon, she's talking about the past, what Simon lost, what he gave up for her, so it's also possible she is referring to her father, and she might not even be directly talking about daddy coming for them there, where they are, but in the future. Though she may also be referring to Mal as a father figure. What River says may not always be straightforward and is open to various interpretations. :)



Well, theoretically, she could be talking about the Easter Bunny, alright, but within the context of the episode it's a very obvious metaphor, especially since it's at first played as a misdirection, making it appear as if she is talking about their father (aided by Simon's reaction to that line), but then combined with the "Time to go" premonition it's pretty straight forward that she means Mal (not to mention all the rest of the episode that parallels and contrasts the theme of parental abandonment) and it requires some effort and deliberation to read it differently.

None of River's episodes are actually that hard to interpret, even the hair incident, so reading too much complexity into them is not really necessary.


*shrug* You make a good point. I stand corrected. Still doesn't justify whoever had the fine idea of coming up with the completely silly 'captain daddy' term, though.



"People tell you things all the time, without talking. The way they move, the way they aren't talking." - River Tam

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Monday, November 13, 2006 4:32 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by Xeyra:

*shrug* You make a good point. I stand corrected. Still doesn't justify whoever had the fine idea of coming up with the completely silly 'captain daddy' term, though.




You make a very good point, as well. *G*

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Monday, November 13, 2006 4:36 AM

XEYRA


Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Quote:

Originally posted by Xeyra:

*shrug* You make a good point. I stand corrected. Still doesn't justify whoever had the fine idea of coming up with the completely silly 'captain daddy' term, though.




You make a very good point, as well. *G*


*grin* Truthfully, I do want to cringe every time I read it... I'm sure I'm not alone in this. :)



"People tell you things all the time, without talking. The way they move, the way they aren't talking." - River Tam

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Monday, November 13, 2006 4:42 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by Xeyra:
Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Quote:

Originally posted by Xeyra:

*shrug* You make a good point. I stand corrected. Still doesn't justify whoever had the fine idea of coming up with the completely silly 'captain daddy' term, though.




You make a very good point, as well. *G*


*grin* Truthfully, I do want to cringe every time I read it... I'm sure I'm not alone in this. :)




It has this certain pimp-like quality to it...

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Monday, November 13, 2006 4:46 AM

GRIZWALD


Well, I had never heard the phrase, and wish that I still hadn't. Ick.

(I avoid fanfic like the plague. Except for the folk at stillflying.net.)

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Monday, November 13, 2006 4:51 AM

XEYRA


Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Quote:

Originally posted by Xeyra:
Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Quote:

Originally posted by Xeyra:

*shrug* You make a good point. I stand corrected. Still doesn't justify whoever had the fine idea of coming up with the completely silly 'captain daddy' term, though.




You make a very good point, as well. *G*


*grin* Truthfully, I do want to cringe every time I read it... I'm sure I'm not alone in this. :)




It has this certain pimp-like quality to it...


Oh God, you've now completely killed me with that comment.



"People tell you things all the time, without talking. The way they move, the way they aren't talking." - River Tam

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Monday, November 13, 2006 5:00 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by Xeyra:
Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:

It has this certain pimp-like quality to it...



Oh God, you've now completely killed me with that comment.




In sincerely apologize. *G* Can't you just imagine him with a Very Fine Hat, the women of Serenity all draped around him, only slightly less bedazzling that the large amounts of jewelry he'd decked out with?

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Monday, November 13, 2006 5:02 AM

XEYRA


Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Quote:

Originally posted by Xeyra:
Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:

It has this certain pimp-like quality to it...



Oh God, you've now completely killed me with that comment.




In sincerely apologize. *G* Can't you just imagine him with a Very Fine Hat, the women of Serenity all draped around him, only slightly less bedazzling that the large amounts of jewelry he'd decked out with?


*runs away screaming from the horrifying image*



"People tell you things all the time, without talking. The way they move, the way they aren't talking." - River Tam

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Monday, November 13, 2006 5:12 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by Xeyra:
Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Quote:

Originally posted by Xeyra:
Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:

It has this certain pimp-like quality to it...



Oh God, you've now completely killed me with that comment.




In sincerely apologize. *G* Can't you just imagine him with a Very Fine Hat, the women of Serenity all draped around him, only slightly less bedazzling that the large amounts of jewelry he'd decked out with?


*runs away screaming from the horrifying image*




Another episode of our popular series "Things that should not be said aloud".

*shrugs*

Oops? *g*

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Monday, November 13, 2006 5:16 AM

XEYRA


Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Quote:

Originally posted by Xeyra:
Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Quote:

Originally posted by Xeyra:
Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:

It has this certain pimp-like quality to it...



Oh God, you've now completely killed me with that comment.




In sincerely apologize. *G* Can't you just imagine him with a Very Fine Hat, the women of Serenity all draped around him, only slightly less bedazzling that the large amounts of jewelry he'd decked out with?


*runs away screaming from the horrifying image*




Another episode of our popular series "Things that should not be said aloud".

*shrugs*

Oops? *g*


I can do with the Very Fine Hat (then he'd be king of Londinium) but the rest of the mental image made me want to claw my eyes out. Poor Mal... Though, truth be told, not sure he'd mind having a few woman draped about him... or maybe he would. Our captain's a little prude, can't even stand to hear about Kaylee's lack of sexual activity without making the funniest horrified expressions. ;)

And we've taken a turn to the completely off topic.



"People tell you things all the time, without talking. The way they move, the way they aren't talking." - River Tam

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Monday, November 13, 2006 5:22 AM

DESKTOPHIPPIE


Well, Mal seems to think of Kaylee as a kind of adoptive daughter, so hearing about battery operated devices twixt her neathers probably has the same effect as River telling Simon that they should marry.

Not that I'd heard the term Captain Daddy before, not having read as much fanfic as I'd like to. I actually clicked into this thread thinking it might be a rant about space-spawn stories




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Monday, November 13, 2006 5:34 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by Xeyra:
Though, truth be told, not sure he'd mind having a few woman draped about him... or maybe he would. Our captain's a little prude, can't even stand to hear about Kaylee's lack of sexual activity without making the funniest horrified expressions. ;)

And we've taken a turn to the completely off topic.




The poor Captain has some serious issues with sexual repression. But that's part of what makes him lovable. *G* Kicking people into engines and squeaking like a ten-year-old at the mention of "toys". Come to think of it, one probably has a lot to do with the other, hehe.

But yes. Off topic. Bad us.

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Monday, November 13, 2006 5:40 AM

REGINAROADIE


Since were on the topic of canon/fanon involving River and Mal, one thing that kinda bugs me is whenever Mal refers to her as "Albatross". I don't remember Mal ever calling her that in the movie. That and not only is it a dumb term of endearment, but every time I hear that word, I keep thinking of John Cleese in drag yelling at Terry Jones "Course you don't get fucking wafers, it's a bloody albatross."

Is there anyone who things that as well?

**************************************************
"We have five million Cybermen. How many are you?"
"Four"
You would destroy the Cybermen with four Daleks?"
"We would destroy the Cybermen with ONE Dalek. You are superior in only one respect."
"What is that?"
"You are better at dying."

Trash talk between a Cyberman and a Dalek. It doesn't get any better than that.

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Monday, November 13, 2006 5:48 AM

DESKTOPHIPPIE


Um... he does call her albatross in the movie.

The Operative does at first, which prompts Mal's line "way I heard it, albatross was a ship's good luck 'till some fool killed it. (to Inara) Yes, I've read a poem. Try not to faint."

Then in the final scene of the movie, when he's taking in how ably River is handling the pilot controls, he says "But it's not all stars and charts, little albatross. You know what the first rule of flying is?"





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Monday, November 13, 2006 5:53 AM

CYBERSNARK


He does call her "little albatross" at the end of the movie, as they're about to take off.

EDIT: Curse my metal body! I wasn't fast enough!

As for the "you're not him" line, I interpreted that to reflect River cutting her ties to her real father (who abandoned her) and replacing him with Mal (who she trusts absolutely wouldn't abandon her). Reason she sounds surprised is that we're seeing the very moment when she realizes that Mal isn't like her real daddy.

This is when she becomes part of the crew, not OiS (that's just when Mal formally accepts her into the crew).

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Monday, November 13, 2006 5:54 AM

REGINAROADIE


It's been a while since I saw the movie, but I do remember the bit between The Operative and Mal, but not Mal calling her lil albatross at the end of the flick.

That being said, even though he called her that, I still think "Albatross" is a dumb nickname for the reasons I stated before.

**************************************************
"We have five million Cybermen. How many are you?"
"Four"
You would destroy the Cybermen with four Daleks?"
"We would destroy the Cybermen with ONE Dalek. You are superior in only one respect."
"What is that?"
"You are better at dying."

Trash talk between a Cyberman and a Dalek. It doesn't get any better than that.

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Monday, November 13, 2006 6:00 AM

DESKTOPHIPPIE


Funny, I've always liked it. Maybe because I found the poem line funny, but also because it gave me a warm, fuzzy feeling when he called her that at the end of the movie




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Monday, November 13, 2006 6:48 AM

KAYNA

I love my captain


I love the nickname for it's meaning. Like Mal said about the good luck. Read the poem some time. Though I do prefer the actuall line Mal used. Lil' Albatross. It sound's a lot more like an endearment. And the Monty Python attachements just make me smile even more.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Op: You're fighting a war you've already lost.
Mal: Yeah, well I'm known for that.

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Monday, November 13, 2006 12:28 PM

DONCOAT


"Albatross!!!!"



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm pointin' right at it!

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Monday, November 13, 2006 5:36 PM

ASORTAFAIRYTALE


I do kinda like River's albatross nickname, but I have to agree with the others that the "captain daddy" thing is kinda sappy and stupid. I also think that it just doesn't seem like something River would say. I always thought that her line in Safe was simply speaking metaphorically, like River so often does.

---------
Love keeps her in the air when she outta fall down, tells you she's hurting before she keels. Makes her a home.


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Saturday, November 18, 2006 6:52 AM

NBZ


Originally (well according to the shooting scripts) the 'you're not him' line was supposed to refer to him not being Simon.

(Mal was supposed to try and move her from the animals, she says he's not him, and then Simon pops up and moves her...)

But at the last minute, the script was changed, and that line is now just a River line. could mean anything.

Captain daddy is just not something she would use.

Albattross was used once, but it's overuse can and will get annoying. Just like every other fic calling Mal captain tightpants.

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Thursday, November 30, 2006 9:58 AM

MAL4PREZ


I can't believe I missed this thread!

I feel pretty strongly about the "Captain Daddy" thing, as I've already talked about with some writers. (whose writing I adore, except for the CD thing!) But I have to throw my oh so important opinion out there again. (Please read that with a properly facetious tone! )

I think River using the "daddy" word in Safe is in some way a reference to Mal, but I absolutely don't think it's literal. It's an expression of a feeling, namely her realization that she's with people she really can depend on, people who will come for her. So it's meant more to refer back to the Daddy who didn't save her, and how she won't feel that way again.

So, yes, Mal is a replacement for her failure of a father, but I totally don't think she'd EVER call Mal Captain Daddy, or even Daddy. She's not a child! Especially since her mental state improves over the course of the BDS and she's eventually able to express herself better.

If she ever used that term, she'd do it in a making-fun-of-Mal way, and he'd be annoyed as hell over it. (As am I!)

And I agree with nbz over the Albatross. I like that name, but it's a little overused for me.

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I'm the president. I don't need to listen.

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Friday, December 1, 2006 5:26 AM

DONCOAT


Heh. Besides, I keep picturing John Cleese in a theater with a dead bird around his neck, yelling "Albatross!"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm pointin' right at it!

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Friday, December 1, 2006 6:12 AM

CANTER


I don't like the Captain Daddy reference. And now that I've read the pimping thing I have to go and wash my eyes with soap. Thanks.
I can just imagine him singing "How much is that geisha in the window" wearing a fur coat and yellow wide brimmed hat. The horror.

But I've always liked the lil'albatross quote. Its so whimsical. But not to be over used.







I'm thinking we'll rise again!

Dec 1st: Big Damn Browncoat Vote http://richlabonte.net/tvvote/index.html


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Tuesday, December 19, 2006 7:55 AM

MAL4PREZ


This isn't a captain-daddy thing, but sort of related...

There's a lot of Mal calling Zoë "Zo" in fic. Does that ever happen in the series or movie? I don't find it completely out of character, but it does bring me up short whenever I see it. Just seems weird.

Opinions, anyone?

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I'm the president. I don't need to listen.

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Tuesday, December 19, 2006 10:47 AM

ASORTAFAIRYTALE


Mal never calls Zoe "Zo". The only one who does that is Wash, in Out of Gas, and quite frankly I don't think that Mal would call her by a nickname that Wash uses...

---------
Love keeps her in the air when she outta fall down, tells you she's hurting before she keels. Makes her a home.


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Tuesday, December 19, 2006 11:42 AM

MAL4PREZ


Thanks... that kind of fits my feeling about it. Especially if it's Wash thing - I can't see Mal going there. Not casually, at least.

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