GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Mac vs. PC

POSTED BY: GOMITHROUS
UPDATED: Friday, November 17, 2006 09:02
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Friday, November 3, 2006 12:51 PM

GOMITHROUS


Just a simple thread, wanted to know what people prefer so here it goes... Which is better, Mac or PC?

Mal-"Well, look at this. Appears we got here just in the nick of time! What does that make us?" Zoe-"Big Damn Heroes, Sir!"

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Friday, November 3, 2006 1:12 PM

SIGMANUNKI


For what? Which OS would be run on the Mac or PC?

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Friday, November 3, 2006 1:18 PM

GOMITHROUS


Honestly hadn't thought about it just figured people would say something like: "Mac!", "PC!", "Mac's are easier to use", "nobody gives a good gorram about easy, PC's are better at gaming!". But I guess OS 10.4 (which I think is Tiger) versus Windows 2000 Proffesional because those are the only ones I can think of right now.

Mal-"Well, look at this. Appears we got here just in the nick of time! What does that make us?" Zoe-"Big Damn Heroes, Sir!"

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Friday, November 3, 2006 1:20 PM

JPSTARGAZER


Why not...

I have a PC as my main computer, and an older laptop running Ubuntu Linux. I guess I haven't had a whole lot of experience with a Mac (excluding those old Macintosh computers when I was in like 2nd grade) so it's sort of a biased opinion.

My beef with Mac (and Steve Jobs in general) is that it's a closed operating system, so there's really no third party development. Basically, if I had a Mac, I couldn't upgrade any parts or build my own computer. Also, Mr. Jobs is constantly railing on Microsoft for stealing things from the Mac OS and then after however many years of the one-button mouse, Mac's now come with a two-button mouse and Steve Jobs is touting it as the greatest thing to happen to computing since the internet.

PC's appeal to me because of the versatility. I've constantly upgraded my computer (which is more than 4 years old) and it still runs great. If it was a Mac, I would have had to buy a new one or be stuck with an old computer.

I guess if you are in a field where the software is primarily for Mac, like video editing, music production, graphic design, etc., then you'd want a Mac. Since I don't fall into that category (engineer, so if it won't run on Windows, it's probably a Unix program), I have no need for a Mac.

And don't even get me started about how some Mac owners think they're so much better than PC owners...you may like your Mac better than my PC, but does that give you the right to be condescending to me? I mean, I've had Mac users treat me like I was a child because I clearly didn't know anything about computers since I was using a virus-laden, evil-corporation-produced, "blue screen o' death" machine.

Sorry for the rant, and if you use a Mac, I don't hate you, I promise...



"All I got is a red guitar, three chords, and the truth...the rest is up to you"
--Bono

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Friday, November 3, 2006 1:30 PM

GOMITHROUS


Personally I'm a Mac user but don't hate me yet. I agree with you on some points. First Mac people do generally treat PC users like the Alliance would the Independants (have you seen the commercials?). And also I've used PC's enough to appreciate their strengths (which are numerous). Still a Mac person so there you go.

Mal-"Well, look at this. Appears we got here just in the nick of time! What does that make us?" Zoe-"Big Damn Heroes, Sir!"

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Friday, November 3, 2006 1:38 PM

ZEEK


PCs. I'm an engineer too. I have my linux machine and my windows machine both self made running constantly at home. See I like to do things with my computers. So, basically they have to be PCs. I'm sorry but if I can't tinker with it than it's no better to me than a toaster. It has one use and it's not that exciting.

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Friday, November 3, 2006 2:32 PM

STINKINGROSE


Mac. Nobody bothers with global virus efforts for Mac. I also have experienced less crash and hang time with Macs than other windowsTM driven systems.
Like the crap we run at work.
I'd almost swear there were applications that were packaged together that are unable to communicate with each other. Error messages abound.
You'd have to ask my Alpha Geek hubby. He's down with the Linux thing.

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Friday, November 3, 2006 3:02 PM

CHINDI


got a pc.. way back when there just wasn't any software for Mad.. and a person has gotta work...

I think all the observations about build it yourself v arts and media are really interesting.

In the beginning I LOVED Macs.. but since the work software thing I am comfy with PC.. so... I like em both but I own pcs.

BTW I LOVE The mac commercials.. they are fun...

Chindi

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Friday, November 3, 2006 3:32 PM

DATALESS


I have had PC's for years and got so sick of it that I tried linux (Viruses, Spyware.) I couldn't do any thing with it. I bought a Mac and love it. It runs faster on this computer than any other PC I've seen. I'm sure their are PCs that can run WOW faster than this computer. I am using a Mac Book Pro (Core Duo not a Core 2 Duo) which is a laptop. The cool thing is Apple has created a program that is called "Boot Camp" it runs a legal copy of Windows XP so you can do all the things a windows PC can do as well. But it can only be used by an Intel Mac. They do have a program for older macs as well "Virtual PC" but that doesn't run an the Intel Macs. I'm not sure it Virtual PC runs Xp or not.

So if you ask me the Mac is better because you can do every thing a PC can do (if you Buy a copy of XP) plus every thing a Mac can do. For that alnoe I would buy a Mac. I might wait until Jan Or Feb when the new Version of Mac OS come out, "Boot Camp" will be pre-installed. All of the cool new stuff will be add to the OS too.

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Friday, November 3, 2006 3:45 PM

JPSTARGAZER


Yeah, Boot Camp seems to be pretty cool. I think it's funny though because MS designs Windows with every other company to make it super compatible, but you'll never see Mac OS run on a PC because they keep all development in house. That may be a smart business move since Mac's can run the competitor's software, but they don't release theirs for the competitor (Microsoft) for the same thing. Seems kinda cheap to me, but maybe that's the Linux "open source" mentality sneaking in.

Oh, and did I mention that Mac's are ridiculously expensive? I guess that's what happens when only one company manufactures and sells them...and Microsoft gets in trouble for having a monopoly?

EDIT: And isn't it funny that everything on a Mac has a play on words in the name? Examples:
Boot Camp-dual boots Windows and Mac OS
Mighty Mouse-has a revolutionary two buttons!
Time Machine-resets computer to previous date(such an original idea)
iXXXXX-just take any software, and put an "i" in front of it! It makes it so personal!

Sorry if I sound aggressive and a bit bitter...I think it's my residual anger towards snooty Mac owners...and the booze.



"All I got is a red guitar, three chords, and the truth...the rest is up to you"
--Bono

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Friday, November 3, 2006 3:50 PM

CITIZEN


They both have their strengths.

Though the PC's biggest strength is also it's weakness. Macs are less crash prone because Apple controls all the Hardware and Software that runs on them. Most problems with IBM's can be linked directly to bad third party hardware, drivers and software.

I'm going right off Apple in general nowadays. Their buisness practice is worse than Microsofts.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
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Friday, November 3, 2006 5:01 PM

JPSTARGAZER


Citizen, I think you may have dated yourself by calling all PC's "IBM"...I say this as I type on an IBM laptop...ironic?



"All I got is a red guitar, three chords, and the truth...the rest is up to you"
--Bono

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Friday, November 3, 2006 5:08 PM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by jpstargazer:
Citizen, I think you may have dated yourself by calling all PC's "IBM"...I say this as I type on an IBM laptop...ironic?

Not really, Mac's and IBM's are both PCs, what we tend to call PC's are IBM compatibles. Don't know if you know that already, not meaning to be patronising if that is the case, just explaining. I have always known the PC as the "IBM compatible PC".

EDIT:
What I meant was:
I don't think it dates me, I've grown up around Computers and I have a BSc in Computer Science, so I've always learnt PC's to be IBM compatibles, truth be told the first IBM PC 8088 went on the market before I was born...



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Friday, November 3, 2006 8:35 PM

JPSTARGAZER


Point taken. I guess it's one of those situations where words take a different meaning from their inception. While PC stands for personal computer, it has come to mean an IBM compatible computer. This has technically changed, I guess, with Apple's transition from the Power PC chips to the Intel chips, but whatever. I guess I'm just used to people using "IBM" in lieu of "PC" when referring to a Windows computer, kind of like people that call a photocopy a "Xerox." I didn't mean to offend you (I'm glad that on the FF boards, people seem a lot more friendly and more understanding) since clearly you have more of a background with your degree than I do.



"All I got is a red guitar, three chords, and the truth...the rest is up to you"
--Bono

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Friday, November 3, 2006 11:04 PM

DARKFLY


Has to be PC, Macs are in my view actually ugly(I don't like apples design on Macs or i pods),second less powerful,thirdly the mouse is so f**king crap,fourthly the OS is slow & weak, & the design setup is not that nice, even though I do admit Macs rarely ever crash or have problems but hey my computers only crashed once since I got it a year ago(I don't count freezes cause all of them so far are attributed to my graphics card while I'm playing a game).

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Saturday, November 4, 2006 1:08 AM

GOMITHROUS


Actually Dataless, I had a seperate PC just for playing WoW which broke down. I was forced to put it on my Mac and I thought the lag would be horrible but it actually works better than on the PC. Oh and by the way are you Horde or Alliance?

For the Horde!!!

Mal-"Well, look at this. Appears we got here just in the nick of time! What does that make us?" Zoe-"Big Damn Heroes, Sir!"

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Saturday, November 4, 2006 2:39 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by jpstargazer:
I didn't mean to offend you (I'm glad that on the FF boards, people seem a lot more friendly and more understanding) since clearly you have more of a background with your degree than I do.

You didn't offend me, far from it.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
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Saturday, November 4, 2006 9:46 AM

SIGMANUNKI


@JPSTARGAZER:

"""
My beef with Mac (and Steve Jobs in general) is that it's a closed operating system, so there's really no third party development.
"""

I'd hate to tell you this, but Mac OS is far more open than windows. We do have the Xnu source for intel Macs after all:

http://www.macosforge.org/

Amoung other components as well.


"""
Basically, if I had a Mac, I couldn't upgrade any parts or build my own computer.
"""

Are you bitching about the OS not being open (which is partially wrong) or not being able to swap hardware? Because the way you are talking, I think that you are confusing the two for being the same when they are actually very very different.


"""
Also, Mr. Jobs is constantly railing on Microsoft for stealing things from the Mac OS and then after however many years of the one-button mouse, Mac's now come with a two-button mouse and Steve Jobs is touting it as the greatest thing to happen to computing since the internet.
"""

The two button mouse was not invented by M$.


"""
PC's appeal to me because of the versatility. I've constantly upgraded my computer (which is more than 4 years old) and it still runs great. If it was a Mac, I would have had to buy a new one or be stuck with an old computer.
"""

If you would have bought a decent Mac you wouldn't have needed to upgrade.


"""
Since I don't fall into that category (engineer, so if it won't run on Windows, it's probably a Unix program), I have no need for a Mac.
"""

Really?

http://www.apple.com/science/
http://www.apple.com/science/scientificcomputing.html

There's also darwin ports as well as netbsd's (I believe it's netbsd) ports tree running on OS X as well.

I'll also point out that if you were doing some hardcore scientific computing there is no way that you'd be able to run that on Windows for stability reasons i.e. There's a reason why Linux (and the BSD's to a certain extent) are used for such tasks:

https://www.scientificlinux.org/

Sorry, I'll trust the people at Fermilab and CERN over some random engineer.


"""
And don't even get me started about how some Mac owners think they're so much better than PC owners...you may like your Mac better than my PC, but does that give you the right to be condescending to me? I mean, I've had Mac users treat me like I was a child because I clearly didn't know anything about computers since I was using a virus-laden, evil-corporation-produced, "blue screen o' death" machine.
"""

I keep hearing people say things like this, but I've never seen it to any semblence of a large extent. Where do people go where they run into people like this?


@GOMITHROUS:
"""
First Mac people do generally treat PC users like the Alliance would the Independants (have you seen the commercials?).
"""

Personally, I find them funny. I also think that they are intended to be taken as humour and not totally serious jabs. When did the world become so sensitive that people can't take a couple good pokes?

(also here @STINKINGROSE)

That being said, I really think that apple has shot themselves in the foot with at least on of the commercials. Why the hell would they say things like (paraphrase) "With Mac OS X I don't have to worry about viruses."? When I saw that commercial, I just thought, how long till one gets published. Got my answer just yesterday:

http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/11/03/1724252


@DATALESS:

Excellent points.


@JPSTARGAZER:

"""
Yeah, Boot Camp seems to be pretty cool. I think it's funny though because MS designs Windows with every other company to make it super compatible, but you'll never see Mac OS run on a PC because they keep all development in house. That may be a smart business move since Mac's can run the competitor's software, but they don't release theirs for the competitor (Microsoft) for the same thing. Seems kinda cheap to me, but maybe that's the Linux "open source" mentality sneaking in.
"""

In all honesty where are you getting all this mis-information?

1) M$ does NOT make it's OS compatible. I could link to a dozen articles referenced by /., but quite frankly, I'm going to leave that one as an exercise for the reader. Just goto http://slashdot.org and look at any number of articles about the license bs as well as security companies (e.g. anti-virus) constantly complaining that M$ isn't giving them the necessary access to do there job properly.

There is also the whole M$ monopoly thing from a couple years ago that just flies in the face at what you are saying.

2) Mac OS X does run on PC's:

http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/10/27/2056225

3) Apple has gone out of there way to get Windows to run on intel Macs. M$ has NOT done anything to get Mac OS X to run on PC's. So, don't bitch at Apple for providing a service to its users that M$ is NOT providing to theres.

4) How does the "open-source" mentality work against Apple when they've opened not only Xnu but other parts of OS X when Windows has opened NOTHING? Also, Apple packages OSS with OS X e.g. SQLite, Apache, etc, and Windows has only recently started to accept that OSS is not going away and it should start to show some freindliness toward the OSS communty (still nothing produced though).


"""
Oh, and did I mention that Mac's are ridiculously expensive? I guess that's what happens when only one company manufactures and sells them...and Microsoft gets in trouble for having a monopoly?
"""

Again you are wrong. When I bought my Mac mini (PPC), the starting price was $600-700 CAD. This inlucded everything but the moniter. Now the mini starts at $679 CAD. And the iMac starts at $1100. That includes everything (and with a Core 2 Duo processor to boot!)!

Ridiculously expensive my eye. Check your facts.


"""
EDIT: And isn't it funny that everything on a Mac has a play on words in the name? Examples:
"""

Please stick to facts and not childishly making fun of the names things got like that has anything to do with how good the software (or its manufacturer) is.


@Citizen:

"""
I'm going right off Apple in general nowadays. Their buisness practice is worse than Microsofts.
"""

How?


@Darkfly:

Thanks for the trolling.



I used DOS then gave into Windows after games stopped having DOS support. After that I found OpenBSD. Since I could use the TV out on my video card under OpenBSD I was forced to keep windows solely for that purpose. Then just over a year ago (I believe) I bought a Mac mini and haven't looked back. I still use OS X for a couple things, but I actually enjoy using OS X. So, it isn't the hasle that windows is.

Personally, I prefer Apple hardware for a variety of reasons e.g. stability. I do prefer Mac OS X over Windows again for a variety of reasons e.g. stability, security, etc, but I admit if you're a gamer - that likes playing game on his/her PC - that probably won't be the case. That being said, I'd rather be running OpenBSD than anything else (OBSD runs on both i386 and ppc hardware among others) as I'm a security minded person. I use my PS2 and Gamecube for my gaming needs. I have no need or want for windows.

As a final note, b/c I'm into security:

- OpenBSD's response time (according to Theo) is about an hour to get a fix published and into CVS given a good bug report and constantly fixes problems that just might be exploitable.
- Mac OS X takes about a day or so to fix critical flaws and somewhat longer for lesser problems
- Windows updates are EXTREMELY rarely out of sync with there once a month update and that's IF they decide to tackle it. There is also there VERY immature attitude tworards security:

http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/10/28/1710228
"""
This week the security firm Authentium found a workaround for Patch Guard, the security feature Microsoft has embedded into the 64-bit version of Windows. It is supposed to keep out unsigned drivers, kernel modifications, and security company competitors. With Authentium's workaround it can be turned off, software installed, and turned right back on. Microsoft immediately responded by saying their reckless ways are endangering the security of Windows users and that they will disable this hack quickly.
"""

Where in reality it is M$ themselves that endangered users by letting something this critical slip through and it's M$ that's getting pissed b/c someone else found and published there screw-up.

Damn that was long. At any rate, gotta go.

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"We don't fear the reaper"

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Saturday, November 4, 2006 10:19 AM

BIONICBATMAN


And in conclusion, Macs rule!!! And dont give me any crap on about gaming. Yes Macs cant run alot of games but games arent everything.

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Saturday, November 4, 2006 11:14 AM

CITIZEN


Try buying a song from iTunes, you aren't allowed to re-encode it (so you aren't allowed to listen to it on anything but an Apple iPod) for this reason and others Apples DRM is even more restrictive than MS's. Who, exactly, does Apple think they are telling me how and where I may listen to music I have paid for?

iPods are completely closed, you can't even get an SDK for them (I've tried), as has been shown by others if your iPods battery dies it's cheaper to buy a new unit than to get a new battery installed.

Apple restricts Hardware, I can buy an x86 pc chip from a number of companies for insertion into a PC, for Macs you have a choice of who Apple decides can produce Mac chips (currently Intel, used to be IBM with the PowerPC). It goes even further than that, the chipset is Intel, compare this to the PC, where you can have a VIA, NVidia, AMD or any number of other chipsets.

Where as Windows has their SDKs for download by anyone who wants, and obviously its even easier for open source operating Systems like Linux. Compare this to Apple, who if they do bother to release an SDK make you jump through hoops and often be a registered developer to get at it. As for MS being monopolistic (and I agree) Apple is even worse, they decide everything from the Software to the Hardware, and if buying a Mac it's Apple or nothing.

But nowadays Apples are little more than glorified IBM's anyway, they run on IBM compatible x86 chips, using IBM compatible chipsets and IBM compatible memory. They can now natively run PC operating systems (such as Windows). They're little more than a PC manufacture with their own Operating System now, and I'm completely confident that I can build a faster and equally stable machine that costs no more and possible less on a simple IBM platform.

In summation:
MS is controlling and Monopolistic, Apple is even worse, monopolising and controlling the Mac's hardware and software to the exclusion of all others. Their DRM and other practices suck even harder than MS's, in fact if Mac's were dominant over PCs (which they aren't, I remind you, because of Apples business practices) then I think people would be up in arms about Apples practices to a far greater degree than MS. Apple is, to all intent and purpose MS + Intel but without any competition (within the Mac world) whatsoever.

EDIT:
One last thing:
Quote:

Personally, I find them funny. I also think that they are intended to be taken as humour and not totally serious jabs. When did the world become so sensitive that people can't take a couple good pokes?

Quote:

Please stick to facts and not childishly making fun of the names things got like that has anything to do with how good the software (or its manufacturer) is.
Physician heal thy self?



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
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Saturday, November 4, 2006 1:34 PM

GOMITHROUS


Limewire isn't illegal in Canada yet so until then screw iTunes. But I'm still Macs all the way.

Mal-"Well, look at this. Appears we got here just in the nick of time! What does that make us?" Zoe-"Big Damn Heroes, Sir!"

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Sunday, November 5, 2006 3:02 PM

JPSTARGAZER


Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
JPSTARGAZER

"""
Basically, if I had a Mac, I couldn't upgrade any parts or build my own computer.
"""

Are you bitching about the OS not being open (which is partially wrong) or not being able to swap hardware? Because the way you are talking, I think that you are confusing the two for being the same when they are actually very very different.



Well I wasn't really "bitching" about anything. I was speaking about hardware...I clearly don't know as much as some people on this board, but my understanding is that if you want a bigger hd, more RAM, new video card, etc., you have to go through Apple. I can do all that myself with a PC.
Quote:


"""
Also, Mr. Jobs is constantly railing on Microsoft for stealing things from the Mac OS and then after however many years of the one-button mouse, Mac's now come with a two-button mouse and Steve Jobs is touting it as the greatest thing to happen to computing since the internet.
"""

The two button mouse was not invented by M$.


I was slightly unclear. I was not claiming that the MS people invented it, simply that it seems the people at Apple treat old news as their innovation.
Quote:


"""
PC's appeal to me because of the versatility. I've constantly upgraded my computer (which is more than 4 years old) and it still runs great. If it was a Mac, I would have had to buy a new one or be stuck with an old computer.
"""

If you would have bought a decent Mac you wouldn't have needed to upgrade.



Well I can't argue there, since I didn't buy a Mac, but see the price point below...
Quote:


"""
Since I don't fall into that category (engineer, so if it won't run on Windows, it's probably a Unix program), I have no need for a Mac.
"""

Really?

http://www.apple.com/science/
http://www.apple.com/science/scientificcomputing.html

There's also darwin ports as well as netbsd's (I believe it's netbsd) ports tree running on OS X as well.

I'll also point out that if you were doing some hardcore scientific computing there is no way that you'd be able to run that on Windows for stability reasons i.e. There's a reason why Linux (and the BSD's to a certain extent) are used for such tasks:

https://www.scientificlinux.org/

Sorry, I'll trust the people at Fermilab and CERN over some random engineer.


Well technically I'm not an engineer yet, I still need to pass my classes this semester and 14 more hours next semester. I wasn't saying that there aren't any scientific applications for Macs. I was commenting from my 1.5 years of experience (small sample, granted) that I've only used Unix and Windows systems in the industry.
Quote:


"""
And don't even get me started about how some Mac owners think they're so much better than PC owners...you may like your Mac better than my PC, but does that give you the right to be condescending to me? I mean, I've had Mac users treat me like I was a child because I clearly didn't know anything about computers since I was using a virus-laden, evil-corporation-produced, "blue screen o' death" machine.
"""

I keep hearing people say things like this, but I've never seen it to any semblence of a large extent. Where do people go where they run into people like this?


Can't answer that, but just because you haven't experienced it (or participated in it) doesn't make my past experience any less true.

Quote:


"""
Yeah, Boot Camp seems to be pretty cool. I think it's funny though because MS designs Windows with every other company to make it super compatible, but you'll never see Mac OS run on a PC because they keep all development in house. That may be a smart business move since Mac's can run the competitor's software, but they don't release theirs for the competitor (Microsoft) for the same thing. Seems kinda cheap to me, but maybe that's the Linux "open source" mentality sneaking in.
"""

In all honesty where are you getting all this mis-information?

1) M$ does NOT make it's OS compatible. I could link to a dozen articles referenced by /., but quite frankly, I'm going to leave that one as an exercise for the reader. Just goto http://slashdot.org and look at any number of articles about the license bs as well as security companies (e.g. anti-virus) constantly complaining that M$ isn't giving them the necessary access to do there job properly.

There is also the whole M$ monopoly thing from a couple years ago that just flies in the face at what you are saying.

2) Mac OS X does run on PC's:

http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/10/27/2056225

3) Apple has gone out of there way to get Windows to run on intel Macs. M$ has NOT done anything to get Mac OS X to run on PC's. So, don't bitch at Apple for providing a service to its users that M$ is NOT providing to theres.

4) How does the "open-source" mentality work against Apple when they've opened not only Xnu but other parts of OS X when Windows has opened NOTHING? Also, Apple packages OSS with OS X e.g. SQLite, Apache, etc, and Windows has only recently started to accept that OSS is not going away and it should start to show some freindliness toward the OSS communty (still nothing produced though).


Well:
1.)I think the monopoly business was that MS packages additional software with the OS. MS is getting in trouble with the EU and so on because Windows includes WMP and IE so the EU thinks that this gives MS a monopoly with media players and browsers. Besides, most of the complaints lately about MS not working with developers is because it seems they're trying to keep the Vista source from as many people as possible. Can't tell yet if that's a wise business move.
2.)I was not aware of this, thanks.
3.)Of course Apple has focused on getting the Mac OS to run on Intel chips...all Macs run on Intel chips now (or at least I think all of them do).
4.)I guess I'm not familiar enough with Macs and I withdraw my criticism in this department.
Quote:


"""
Oh, and did I mention that Mac's are ridiculously expensive? I guess that's what happens when only one company manufactures and sells them...and Microsoft gets in trouble for having a monopoly?
"""

Again you are wrong. When I bought my Mac mini (PPC), the starting price was $600-700 CAD. This inlucded everything but the moniter. Now the mini starts at $679 CAD. And the iMac starts at $1100. That includes everything (and with a Core 2 Duo processor to boot!)!

Ridiculously expensive my eye. Check your facts.


Yes, the Mac Mini is one model, but the MacBook Pro's and the Mac Pro's are more expensive than equivalent PC's (now I'm sure the work "equivalent" can be argued all day, but do I look like a certain Arkansas politician to you?).

Besides the two models you mentioned are the epitome of closed-architechture systems (hardware-wise, since we had this misunderstanding earlier). So you fill up the hd on you Mini...I don't think they're upgradeable...at least not easily or under warranty if you're doing it yourself. Once again, I could be wrong though.
Quote:


"""
EDIT: And isn't it funny that everything on a Mac has a play on words in the name? Examples:
"""

Please stick to facts and not childishly making fun of the names things got like that has anything to do with how good the software (or its manufacturer) is.


Well, I would say Apple's trade names for products are pretty close to FACT. I am not saying that an "Air Port" card is better or worse than a "WLAN card," just that the marketing strategies are so different between Mac and MS.

That's all for now I think.



"All I got is a red guitar, three chords, and the truth...the rest is up to you"
--Bono

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Sunday, November 5, 2006 3:18 PM

DATALESS


Quote:

Originally posted by Gomithrous:
Actually Dataless, I had a seperate PC just for playing WoW which broke down. I was forced to put it on my Mac and I thought the lag would be horrible but it actually works better than on the PC. Oh and by the way are you Horde or Alliance?

For the Horde!!!



I would have to say it would depends on your Mac (or for that matter your PC also.) I get no lag at all. I never have a slow down when landing a bird and I am always first to zone in when on a boat. I see everyone pop in after I have. Once I was running away from the boat before my friend zoned in. I think that has more to do with the Intel core duo than a Mac or PC. Blizzard has always supported Macs. I know they had added Itunes controls that is built into WOW

Mostly I play for The Alliance, Mostly. Though I do have a Horde character. I play on Kargath, you? What kind of Mac do you have?

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Sunday, November 5, 2006 3:27 PM

GOMITHROUS


I have a PowerBook G4, it's quite an amazing computer. I'm Horde all the way but I'm tempted to make a Draenie when the Burning Crusade comes out. Also, check out my "Funniest stuff you ever heard" post I'm gonna put Leroy Jenkins up there.

Link: http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=25047

Mal-"Well, look at this. Appears we got here just in the nick of time! What does that make us?" Zoe-"Big Damn Heroes, Sir!" Mal-"Ain't we just"

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Sunday, November 5, 2006 4:11 PM

DATALESS


I think the ads for them Macs seem to make Mac owners feel better then PC owners. It makes me kind of embarrassed as a Mac owner. I just when to Dell and they are charging $3450 for a computer that compares to the Mac Book Pro 17' screen ($2799). You might be able to get a cheaper PC but will it be as fast and have the same hard drive space? Compare specs and then say which is cheaper. Don't just say that Macs are more expensive with out looking. They don't have a cheaper model but they don't sell computers that compare to PCs that cost less then like $800.

In the end they both Mac and PCs are good. They both have their flaws and they both have their advantages. If you are going to get a computer I would look at all me options, including cost, and then decide. I wouldn't go into any store for any product with out being fully informed. Look at Dell's, Alienware's, Gateway's, Hp's, and yes even Mac's website to compare and really price things out.So before making any judgment on on this topic, it is smart to know all of the facts without emotion attachment to any company or OS. I would even go to the store and look at the computers (Compusa in most area has both Macs and PC.)

I know someone who is beta testing WoW and they said that the Female Draenie is a choppy runner. Have you seen or picked up the WoW the CCG?

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Monday, November 6, 2006 2:52 AM

GOMITHROUS


I actually just bought a pack on Saturday to see what they look like, pretty shiny!
Oh and can't all of us Mac owners and PC owners just be friends

Mal-"Well, look at this. Appears we got here just in the nick of time! What does that make us?" Zoe-"Big Damn Heroes, Sir!" Mal-"Ain't we just"

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Monday, November 6, 2006 6:40 AM

TRISTAN


Sorry, time to insert a joke here....

What's the difference between a Mac and an Etch-a-Sketch?

You don't have to shake a Mac to clear the screen.



______________________________________

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Monday, November 6, 2006 12:34 PM

ZEEK


Quote:

Originally posted by jpstargazer:
Well technically I'm not an engineer yet, I still need to pass my classes this semester and 14 more hours next semester. I wasn't saying that there aren't any scientific applications for Macs. I was commenting from my 1.5 years of experience (small sample, granted) that I've only used Unix and Windows systems in the industry.


Don't worry I've been in the industry for years now. I've never ever heard of anyone doing development work on macs. It's strictly PCs or Unix/Linux. Also one of the companies I interned at in college had a great laugh in a meeting once. We were going over the bug reports for a web based tool and one bug sad something about mac users having a problem. The teamlead looked at it for a minute then crumpled up the paper and threw it over his shoulder. We laughed for about 5 minutes and then got back to distributing work. Not that it's the best business model but it sure raise morale briefly.

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Monday, November 6, 2006 2:33 PM

ELOISA


I've used Macs far less often than PCs and through my limited experience hate their sorry guts, but I've never cursed them quite as loudly as I have done a graphic design program designed for Mac and ported onto PC (I only had a PC at the office - the main graphics person had one of each, and two desks to go along with, the jammy woman). Dratted thing crashed all the time unless I was careful.

It's also difficult to appreciate Macs when you use your home computer primarily for gaming. IMO console gaming doesn't nearly fill in.

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Monday, November 6, 2006 2:38 PM

TERRI


Gosh, you're going to hate me, but I didn't read almost any of that thread. But to speak out: It's PC for me. More software is compatible, and it's less expensive, and as my experience has gone it's easier to upgrade. Granted Windows isn't the awesomest OS to be working with, but if I want a little variete (sic) then I can just boot up the compy with Ubuntu (Linux kernel) on it. And I just love my Lappy. Yeah, I named my laptop computer after Strong Bad's computer, wanna fight about it?


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Tuesday, November 7, 2006 7:18 PM

BIONICBATMAN


Yea i would love to see an Etch a sketch play music, videos, and make its own pictures. Dont EVER compare the Mac to a etch a sketch. Let me guess you are a PC gamer? People only like PCs for one thing: GAMES!!! So for that reason PC users think Macs suck cause they dont have all PC games. So other than games what do you Windows, Linux, and other PC lovers think the Mac cant that your computer can?

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Tuesday, November 7, 2006 7:27 PM

TRISTAN


Wow. A little uptight, are we? See, I thought Mac users had a sense of humor, as I got that joke from a Mac user...guess you aren't one of them, eh?
Not that it matters, but I am not a "gamer". If I play for an hour on any one PC game in a week, that's a lot.
Seems like you have declared yourself the champion defended of the Mac. Good luck with that!

______________________________________

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Tuesday, November 7, 2006 8:42 PM

LITTLEALBATROSS


The Mac guy in the Apple commercials is hot.

But in all seriousness, I use a PC simply because I've never used a Mac and was reluctant to spend the money on an unknown entity when I bought my computer. I would consider a Mac in the future, especially since the introduction of intel(?) dual-core ones.

I don't understand why people get so caught up in proving one is better/worse than the other. Does it really matter?





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Wednesday, November 8, 2006 12:45 AM

PH4NTMN3SS


actually, etch-a-sketches do draw pictures, that is the whole point, but anyway, PC all the way.
i've only used a mac at school, but i hate it. the worst thing about it that its mouse sucks. you can't move it properly and whats with the one button, and yes i know that there are 2 buttons now(key word, now).
Simple to use, PCs are plenty(not a real word but i can't think of one right now) simple to use. Macs are completely confusing.
My PC has never ever gotten a virus so I don't really care about that. If it did, it hasn't affected it functionally.
Also http://www.ctrlaltdel-online.com/comic.php?d=20060513 yep it says it all.

It probably doesn't matter, but people like proving things. Nothing wrong with that, besides aren't forums all about discussing things all things, whether they matter or not. If you care, repond, if you don't, well don't. You probably have an opinion, or want to know other people's or you wouldn't be reading this.


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Wednesday, November 8, 2006 1:48 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


I'm a huge fan of the TI-86 by Texas Instruments.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Wednesday, November 8, 2006 1:36 PM

BIONICBATMAN


Yea i definitely declared myself defender of the MAC. And you didnt answer a single one of my questions. So that really helps me understand how you think of your PC.

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Wednesday, November 8, 2006 6:06 PM

TRISTAN


Terribly sorry to have left you hanging there, oh Mac Defender. I do believe I did answer one of the questions.
Quote:

Let me guess you are a PC gamer?

That's the one I answered.

I'm going to guess this is the one I did not answer...
Quote:

So other than games what do you Windows, Linux, and other PC lovers think the Mac cant that your computer can?


Let's see....the last time I used a Mac was waaay back in the early 90's. Have not touched one since then; so I have no idea what they are capable of. Why don't you share your wisdom with the rest of the class and tell us why they are so much better? I am really curious.

______________________________________

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Thursday, November 9, 2006 12:06 AM

DARKFLY


You know I & other students at college opened up a Mac as part of the clase yesterday & got told how a Mac worked.Macs have really fast processors its just by the time the processor has done all its stuff it ends up being the same speed as a PC & the Macs battery is a lot bigger in size than a PCs & that you can now put Window on a Mac becuase new Macs use an Intel processor & that all the hardware in a Mac is in the display monitor(I already knew that).

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Things are about to get interesting...Define interesting...Oh GOD oh GOD we're all going to die.

Go to

to see my cool trailer.

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Thursday, November 9, 2006 2:21 AM

FLATTOP


Break some Winblow$
Take a bite out of Apple.
Use Linux.

One OS to rule them all.
One OS to find them.
One OS to bring them all,
And with the Blue Screen bind them.
In the the land of Redmond,
Where the Windows lie.

I don't push my home system, and lead a rather dull computing life. I go home, I sit at my Mac, I put a disc in the side, it gets ripped & encoded to MP3, added to my library, and rotated into the random tracks. I surf a while, maybe write a bit, watch something on youtube, email... All of which is handled flawlessly, and much faster than my 7 year old AMD Athlon.
All of my video games are for my XBOX 360 (I rather like the idea of people thinking of Microsoft as The game company.)

At work, it's an HP PC running Windows, because that's what the company gave me.

----------
Do you know what your sin is Captain?
Aww hell, I'm a big fan of all seven.

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Thursday, November 9, 2006 8:43 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Darkfly:
You know I & other students at college opened up a Mac as part of the clase yesterday & got told how a Mac worked.Macs have really fast processors its just by the time the processor has done all its stuff it ends up being the same speed as a PC & the Macs battery is a lot bigger in size than a PCs & that you can now put Window on a Mac becuase new Macs use an Intel processor & that all the hardware in a Mac is in the display monitor(I already knew that).

This was true.

Years ago. The PowerPC processors have been behind the x86 for some time (which is why Apple moved to Intel x86's in the first place). Now they're no faster, because they are IBM PCs.

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Thursday, November 9, 2006 8:46 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by BionicBatman:
So other than games what do you Windows, Linux, and other PC lovers think the Mac cant that your computer can?

Run 3D Studio Max. And until the recent move Apple has made to turn the Mac into an IBM PC any credible 3D application.

What do I win?



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Thursday, November 9, 2006 8:58 AM

TPAGE


LOVE the cartoon comparing Mac and PC in reference to the Mac Commercials... wow that was long winded.

Personally, I've never really used a Mac. I hear they are good for graphics and media type stuff, but that many things don't work on them.

In all reality I don't care which is better. Let's expand this argument to cars; which is better Toyota or Ford or Honda or Jeep or ... Does it matter, they're all still on the road!



And if someday on some little piss-ant moon/My hand is a little too slow, or my aim a little bit off/At least I’ll go down fighting, not lying abed surrounded by quacks - "Sir Warrick" by Geezer

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Thursday, November 9, 2006 9:39 AM

BIONICBATMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:

Originally posted by BionicBatman:
So other than games what do you Windows, Linux, and other PC lovers think the Mac cant that your computer can?

Run 3D Studio Max. And until the recent move Apple has made to turn the Mac into an IBM PC any credible 3D application.

What do I win?



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.




And what does 3D studio Max do? Cause i 100% guarentee you a Mac can do just the same! O and you win nothing.

Tristan, I'm just saying a Mac can do anything a PC can. They are the same thing except for gaming but that doesnt count.

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Thursday, November 9, 2006 10:01 AM

CITIZEN


It's a 3D modelling application. And no the Mac, until being converted to an IBM PC, couldn't do it. It's only recently that Alias Maya has been ported to the Intel Mac's.

3D modelling on the Mac is relatively new, professional 3D modelling on the Mac has appeared this year and professionals USING the Mac for modelling is non-existent. The Mac can't run 3DS Max, no ifs, no buts, no "but if the Mac can't do it it's stupid". It. Can't. Do. It.

I considered Macs, I didn't go that route for several reasons, I play games, not often but occasionally, Mac's don't run hardly any of my Software, and getting Windows on even the Intel Macs is difficult due to lack of driver support (and if your going to do that anyway there's no point buying a Mac) and I can build a faster cheaper and more stable system than I can get from a pre built manufacturer, including Apple.

I really don't get what your problem is. I've already said that Macs and PCs have their strengths, Macs are more widely used for Video editing and production 2D. Not that they are any better at it than PC's, they're just what the professionals use, probably because Apples monopolistic control of the hardware means they can be made more stable for said applications.

PC's have conclusively proven they are better for gaming, something you want to play down I can only assume because it's something the Mac can't do.

Your argument boils down subsequently to:
Mac's can do almost everything PC's can do, but those things they can't do don't matter because I don't want to do them, and people who do are wrong. Your personal choice of PC's over Macs are wrong because, I say so that's why.

I'm afraid it's not an argument that impresses me much. I don't want to discuss what's best Mac or IBM, but if you really want to push it I can conclusively prove to you that PC's are the better choice for most people, which is why most people buy them.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Thursday, November 9, 2006 11:26 AM

DANFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Gomithrous:
Just a simple thread, wanted to know what people prefer so here it goes... Which is better, Mac or PC?



I think that's an unanswerable question... all I can speak to is my preference (which I think is what you are really asking anyways).

I've been an engineer for about 28 years. The company I work at mandates the use of Windows-based PCs. I find them to be serviceable machines.

However, my preference is for the Mac. At home, I use a Mac G5 tower. I surf the internet, email, record my own music, use Microsoft Office, and learn a foreign language on it. I don't play shoot-em-ups (embarrassing admission here... they make me motion sick!). So that is no loss to me. I have added a second hard drive (to the spare internal bay) for backups.

My wife used Macs for several years then switched to PCs because her quilting SW would only run on Windows. A lightning strike to the house cooked her Dell. When she discovered that we could get an iMac that would dual boot (OS X/Windows), that was what she opted to get. After doing the research, I spent about $200 more for the iMac (bundled with Boot Camp and Windows XP) than for an equivalent Dell... lo and behold, that turns out to be near the retail cost of the Windows XP OS that it came bundled with.

So now, she keeps all our sensitive financial info on the Mac partition. And the quilting SW and adventure games that we like to play are on the PC partition. Win-win.

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Thursday, November 9, 2006 10:37 PM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:

Try buying a song from iTunes, you aren't allowed to re-encode it (so you aren't allowed to listen to it on anything but an Apple iPod) for this reason and others Apples DRM is even more restrictive than MS's. Who, exactly, does Apple think they are telling me how and where I may listen to music I have paid for?




This is rather irritating (though I've never bought anything from iTunes). But, don't they have to open this up for interoperability reasons in Europe (or for some country therein)? This would then translate to openness in general, yes?


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:

iPods are completely closed, you can't even get an SDK for them (I've tried), as has been shown by others if your iPods battery dies it's cheaper to buy a new unit than to get a new battery installed.




I imagine that Zune will be closed as well. Having closed hardware/software is nothing new in this arena. In fact, it should be expected. So, why you are complaining about this is beyond me.

Furthermore, having replacement cost less than repair cost is nothing new as well. Ever try to get a monitor fixed (any make)? Or how about a printer?


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:

Apple restricts Hardware, I can buy an x86 pc chip from a number of companies for insertion into a PC, for Macs you have a choice of who Apple decides can produce Mac chips (currently Intel, used to be IBM with the PowerPC). It goes even further than that, the chipset is Intel, compare this to the PC, where you can have a VIA, NVidia, AMD or any number of other chipsets.




This has always been the case. In the PC world we get to lego the computer. Not so in the Mac world. It really is a matter of preference (how is this bad in general?). BUT, it must be said that this wasn't always the case. In years past Motorola was allowed to make clones but Apple killed that. This was rather a bad move as then Motorola had a quiet hissy fit by not developing Apples chips with anything resembling speed resulting in the Intel switch.

Again, this is a matter of preference. Do I care about playing with the hardware? Certainly not. Couldn't care less.

The only thing that I want is quality (i.e. It just works). I get that with Apple, and have had stupid amounts of problems with the last PC that I bought.


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:

Where as Windows has their SDKs for download by anyone who wants, and obviously its even easier for open source operating Systems like Linux. Compare this to Apple, who if they do bother to release an SDK make you jump through hoops and often be a registered developer to get at it. As for MS being monopolistic (and I agree) Apple is even worse, they decide everything from the Software to the Hardware, and if buying a Mac it's Apple or nothing.




It's been a while since I've done a fresh install of OS X, so I don't remember if gcc is bundled with the OS. But I think that it's on the install CD's. Even if it isn't, it would come with XCode which is downloadable from there developers website. XCode is a wonderful IDE which is FREE. M$ cannot claim such a thing.

Yes, registration is required, but I really don't mind it all that much. It's a very low volume mailing list and I appreciate knowing when new versions are available. So, just 1 hoop.

I will also mention that gcc is in darwinports. So, this whole jumping through hoops is somewhat unnecessary if one wants to go that route. So, there IS choice in the software.

Not only that but the one can install different OS's as well. I mentioned above that I run OpenBSD on my mini, but linux would run on it as well. BeOS ran on PPC hardware when they were around and the Haiku OS project is making strides getting that to run on PPC hardware as well. There are most likely others too.


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:

But nowadays Apples are little more than glorified IBM's anyway, they run on IBM compatible x86 chips, using IBM compatible chipsets and IBM compatible memory. They can now natively run PC operating systems (such as Windows). They're little more than a PC manufacture with their own Operating System now, and I'm completely confident that I can build a faster and equally stable machine that costs no more and possible less on a simple IBM platform.




I'm going to have to say that this is a bunch of crap (yes, you've hit a nerve with me).

Apple never was about just the hardware, or just the OS, or just any one thing. It is about getting a stable computer in the hands of the user that is trivial to setup and use.

This is independent of what particular OS they run and is independent of what particular hardware they run. Both in recent years have been radically changed. Namely with the OS 9 to OS X, and PPC to PC changes respectively.

From a developers point of view (mine), I really really really like not having to keep track of all the different benchmarks of everything like the CPU, GPU, etc etc etc and/or doing ridiculous amounts of research when I buy a new computer. PC's make me do this. Which is why I've always gone to friends to tell me what to get given my budget, etc. I don't care about this stuff. I just want it to work and work well.

What I want is for my development environment to work and my OS to be able to withstand weeks/months/etc of running with NO reboot required (aside from updates that may require it). M$ cannot provide this for me.

With Apple, what isn't installed by default, I can get through darwinports. With M$ everything must be installed.

So, there you go. I get a more stable OS running on more stable hardware with more software.

Sure, maybe you could throw together a PC "just as good" as something that Apple provides for about the same or less. But, how much time would you have to spend in research about how the different components interact to be able to do that? How much time would you have to spend downloading all the libs required for development?

As a last little thing that I get with my Apple that I NEVER got with any PC that I've owned is quiet. Yes, I no longer have a leaf-blower on/by my desk anymore. In fact, if I turn off einstein@home, the only way that I know that my mini is running is the light on the front of it.



You seem to like to play with hardware. Fine, I respect that. But you have to remember that some of us don't like playing with hardware. And shitting on Apple b/c they don't let you play with the hardware and not bring in companies like Dell as well, is rather irritating to me. It seems to me like a lot of your reasoning for not liking Apple is being done on the PC side of things by several companies as well. Are you just as pissed with them? Or is that ok b/c they give an appearance of "more" choice?


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:

In summation:
MS is controlling and Monopolistic, Apple is even worse, monopolising and controlling the Mac's hardware and software to the exclusion of all others.




*coughbootcampcough*


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:

Their DRM and other practices suck even harder than MS's, in fact if Mac's were dominant over PCs (which they aren't, I remind you, because of Apples business practices) then I think people would be up in arms about Apples practices to a far greater degree than MS.




Here I will call bullshit.

You haven't made a case that it's Apple's business practices that PC's are more dominant. Furthermore, although Apple does choose hardware/software for people, they do NOT actively destroy innovation. That's M$'s thing, which they were found guilty of in the US and Europe.



Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:

Apple is, to all intent and purpose MS + Intel but without any competition (within the Mac world) whatsoever.




And what have you shown that shows this? Reality even contradicts it!

You see, if Apple was M$ then there OS would be a buggy piece of crap requiring regular reboot. It's software would be buggy and it's documentation (both for user AND developers) would be incomplete and incorrect.

BUT, I have yet to find ANY error in the documentation for ANY API that Apple has put out. My computer has never locked nor does it require regular reboot. And I've never had any issue with the correctness of ANY software that I use that Apple has put out.


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:

EDIT:
One last thing:
Quote:

Personally, I find them funny. I also think that they are intended to be taken as humour and not totally serious jabs. When did the world become so sensitive that people can't take a couple good pokes?

Quote:

Please stick to facts and not childishly making fun of the names things got like that has anything to do with how good the software (or its manufacturer) is.
Physician heal thy self?




You're taking those quotes out of context and have probably read them as they were NOT intended.

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Thursday, November 9, 2006 11:31 PM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:

Originally posted by jpstargazer:

Well I wasn't really "bitching" about anything. I was speaking about hardware...I clearly don't know as much as some people on this board, but my understanding is that if you want a bigger hd, more RAM, new video card, etc., you have to go through Apple. I can do all that myself with a PC.




With something like the mini it's rather difficult, BUT if you google for hardware upgrade there are very detailed instructions on how to do it. That being said, if one gets one of the Mac Pro's it's a lot easier.

But, one doesn't have to go through Apple, just an authorized dealer. I make this distinction as it is the difference between a trip across town as opposed to paying for shipping to Apple themselves. But, this is something that most PC users would do as well.

Also, upgrading the hardware all the time is a mentality within the PC "culture" not the Mac "culture". Please note that don't really care about upgrading hardware (at least themselves). But again, the vast majority of PC users are of the same mentality.


Quote:

Originally posted by jpstargazer:

I was slightly unclear. I was not claiming that the MS people invented it, simply that it seems the people at Apple treat old news as their innovation.




Really? I didn't get that. Though that ball on the mouse instead of a wheel I think was a first. Yes/no? Still, the Mighty Mouse is way too expensive.


Quote:

Originally posted by jpstargazer:

Well technically I'm not an engineer yet, I still need to pass my classes this semester and 14 more hours next semester. I wasn't saying that there aren't any scientific applications for Macs. I was commenting from my 1.5 years of experience (small sample, granted) that I've only used Unix and Windows systems in the industry.




What you have admitted is what is known as academic dishonesty i.e. you have claimed credentials that you do NOT posses. I imagine that if word got out that you've done this, there'd be some rather irritated people.

And your original statement implied that Mac's were useless for scientific computing.

At any rate, thanks for the clarification.


Quote:

Originally posted by jpstargazer:

Can't answer that, but just because you haven't experienced it (or participated in it) doesn't make my past experience any less true.




So, you've had an experience, but you can't say where it came from. That it? B/c I was NOT looking for an address. I was looking for a "Some guy overheard me in a bar and started pissing about" or "I was on webforum X and..." or something along those lines.

And if you can't give me an answer like the above, I'm going to have to call bullshit on your story (though I fully believe that such people exist).


Quote:

Originally posted by jpstargazer:

Well:
1.)I think the monopoly business was that MS packages additional software with the OS. MS is getting in trouble with the EU and so on because Windows includes WMP and IE so the EU thinks that this gives MS a monopoly with media players and browsers. Besides, most of the complaints lately about MS not working with developers is because it seems they're trying to keep the Vista source from as many people as possible. Can't tell yet if that's a wise business move.




That was only part of it. Stifling of innovation was a large chunk of it as well.


Quote:

Originally posted by jpstargazer:

Quote:


3) Apple has gone out of there way to get Windows to run on intel Macs. M$ has NOT done anything to get Mac OS X to run on PC's. So, don't bitch at Apple for providing a service to its users that M$ is NOT providing to theres.


3.)Of course Apple has focused on getting the Mac OS to run on Intel chips...all Macs run on Intel chips now (or at least I think all of them do).




Um, I think you didn't read what I posted. What I was getting at is that Apple got Windows to run on its hardware, but M$ has NOT even attempted to get OS X to run on PC's in general (that was other peoples doing). Not to mention that it plainly wouldn't make sense for M$ to do this as it would be business suicide given what they do and don't do.

I posted this as you made the statement, "That may be a smart business move since Mac's can run the competitor's software, but they don't release theirs for the competitor (Microsoft) for the same thing."

This implies that M$ "released" there stuff so that Apple could make bootcamp and that Apple didn't reciprocate which couldn't be more wrong. Apple did it on there own without any help from M$.



Quote:

Originally posted by jpstargazer:

Yes, the Mac Mini is one model, but the MacBook Pro's and the Mac Pro's are more expensive than equivalent PC's (now I'm sure the work "equivalent" can be argued all day, but do I look like a certain Arkansas politician to you?).




I also mentioned the iMac which is a great price as well. I haven't looked into PC's prices, but I gather that the Mac Pro is a fairly good deal as well given the two CPU motherboard, etc.

You do have a point about the laptops though. Apple does seem to be more expensive on that account. But, personally I'd still buy a MacBook over the PC for weight, quality, style, etc.


Quote:

Originally posted by jpstargazer:

Besides the two models you mentioned are the epitome of closed-architechture systems (hardware-wise, since we had this misunderstanding earlier). So you fill up the hd on you Mini...I don't think they're upgradeable...at least not easily or under warranty if you're doing it yourself. Once again, I could be wrong though.




As I mentioned above, it can be done. But, with a system like those, I'd leave it to the pro's. Not like it's going to cost much extra anyway.

Also, let's compare oranges to oranges. If we have a built system like a Dell, as soon as you open it, the warranty is void. Why should this be any different for a Mac?

I'd also say that you seem to be saying that Apple is bad because they have closed hardware instead of saying it's bad for you. B/c personally, I don't care nor do a lot of people. It doesn't matter to me if I can or cannot tinker with the hardware. It's making software that interests me.

Also, you're going to have to give me your definition of closed with regards to hardware. B/c the way I see closed hardware is that we don't have the specs for it. Whereas you seem to be using it as "I can't change or I can't easily change the hardware configuration of my computer" not really caring about if you know what those parts are actually doing and how they do it.


Quote:

Originally posted by jpstargazer:

Well, I would say Apple's trade names for products are pretty close to FACT. I am not saying that an "Air Port" card is better or worse than a "WLAN card," just that the marketing strategies are so different between Mac and MS.




Although it is true that stating the naming convention is sticking to facts, that is NOT what I was referring to. I was referring to when you posted:

"""
iXXXXX-just take any software, and put an "i" in front of it! It makes it so personal!
"""

The sarcasm dripping. Making fun of something that is ridiculous to make fun of.

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Friday, November 10, 2006 12:21 AM

SIGMANUNKI


Posted by ZEEK:
"""
and one bug sad something about mac users having a problem. The teamlead looked at it for a minute then crumpled up the paper and threw it over his shoulder. We laughed for about 5 minutes and then got back to distributing work. Not that it's the best business model but it sure raise morale briefly.
"""

I find it interesting that PC users get pissy when a PPC guy does this, but if a PPC guy does this, it's a horror!


@Terri:
"""
More software is compatible
"""

Depends on what you're doing.


"""
and it's less expensive
"""

Clearly not true, read the thread.


"""
and as my experience has gone it's easier to upgrade
"""

Upgrade what? OS? Hardware?



@LITTLEALBATROSS:
"""
I don't understand why people get so caught up in proving one is better/worse than the other. Does it really matter?
"""

Everyone gets caught up in something. My personal problem with conversations like this is when people clearly don't have the facts straight e.g. Terri. Thus I correct them. But, at the same time, I'll admit when what I like has weaknesses, e.g. lake of games, slower with security fixes then I'd like, shoting themselves in the foot when it comes to there virus commericial, etc.


@PH4NTMN3SS:

Troll troll go away.


@Tristan:

"""
Let's see....the last time I used a Mac was waaay back in the early 90's.
"""

Things have definitely changed since the early 90's. I'd recommend at least poking around one in an Apple store before buying your next computre.


"""
Have not touched one since then; so I have no idea what they are capable of. Why don't you share your wisdom with the rest of the class and tell us why they are so much better?
"""

For what?


@Citizen:

"""
I can build a faster cheaper and more stable system than I can get from a pre built manufacturer, including Apple.
"""

So, you've upgraded yourselve to as stable, maybe more so, to (paraphrase) "definitely, Apple doesn't know what it's doing, I'm so much better at choosing hardware then they are."


"""
Not that they are any better at it than PC's, they're just what the professionals use, probably because Apples monopolistic control of the hardware means they can be made more stable for said applications.
"""

I could ask you what your problem is right now as you've just contradicted yourself i.e. How in the world does two applications, one more stable than the other, make the PC just as good at "it" as the Mac?


"""
PC's have conclusively proven they are better for gaming, something you want to play down I can only assume because it's something the Mac can't do.
"""

Honestly, this is a ridiculous statment; completely unsupported. All that we conslusively knwow is that more games run on PC's. This says NOTHING about which one is "better for gaming".


"""
Your argument boils down subsequently to:
Mac's can do almost everything PC's can do, but those things they can't do don't matter because I don't want to do them, and people who do are wrong. Your personal choice of PC's over Macs are wrong because, I say so that's why.
"""

I can't really argue with that; this is a ridiculous statment.


"""
I'm afraid it's not an argument that impresses me much. I don't want to discuss what's best Mac or IBM, but if you really want to push it I can conclusively prove to you that PC's are the better choice for most people, which is why most people buy them.
"""

You certainly can NOT prove "that PC's are the better choice for most people, which is why most people buy them." People buy what is in front of them and what is in front of them is Windows Windows Windows. It is the same reason why people go to Walmart.

People buy things because it is convinient and it does what they want it to. It must also be noted that it doesn't even have to do it well, it just has to do it. It also works wonders that a large chunk of society doesn't even know that other OS's exist, and if they know about other OS's, that they buy into the propaganda about Linux and BS that is spread about Mac's.

What people want is something easy. Something without resistence at that particular moment in time. It doesn't matter that further research may reveal that a Mac (or PC/Mac running Linxu/*BSD/etc) would be vastly supirior to a PC running Windows.

There's also that little thing that people are lazy. That change frightens them. So, if after years of using Windows they find out that Linx/etc would be better, they'll just stick with Windows b/c it's "easier".

I run into this all the time. My parents complain that there computer starts to slow down and then they have to re-install Windows from time to time. They complain about crashes and reboots, etc etc etc. I tell them to run Linux and I can set it up so that it'll look and feel pretty much like Windows (KDE) and all the programs that they need are already availible for it. But they refuse.

My sister recently bought a laptop (she didn't even ask me even when I was able to answer questions). So, instead of getting something she needed/wanted, she got a laptop (when she should have gotten a desktop), and from a crapy company to boot. All b/c some guy at futureshop said that it was good. And after she did this stupid thing, I asked if she even considered a Mac, she said that they sucked (she's never used one).

People are lazy, people are stupid, people will go with what they are used to regardless of what is actually best for them.




It is now 5:30am. I must sleep. Good night all.

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Friday, November 10, 2006 12:39 AM

FREERADICAL42


I use my mac for technical applications. A lot of bioengineering software exists for the Mac, and that makes it useful. Also my 12" Powerbook is small and runs in a stable fashion (I encounter memory leaks infrequently enough that I can leave my computer on for a few weeks at a time without major performance hits).

This is useful for some things, but not for others; for mobility and as a tool, I wouldn't use an IBM Compatible, though I do use one for hobbies; specifically for the gaming and RPG work that I do.

Linux is an interesting option, but it's summed up by the following quotation: "Linux is only free if your time is worthless." I think when this computer needs to be replaced by a newer Mac, I'll turn what's left of it into a Linux machine for fun.

"See, morbid and creepifying, I got no problem with, long as she does it quiet-like."

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Friday, November 10, 2006 2:20 AM

FLATTOP


Quote:

Originally posted by freeradical42:
Linux is an interesting option, but it's summed up by the following quotation: "Linux is only free if your time is worthless."



Well said.

----------
Do you know what your sin is Captain?
Aww hell, I'm a big fan of all seven.

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