GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Where did Mal get the money for Serenity?

POSTED BY: NCBROWNCOAT
UPDATED: Friday, January 20, 2017 11:40
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Monday, September 25, 2006 9:55 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by mal4prez:
I don't know about any rebound effect, but if gravity suddenly shut off, everything on a planet would definitely take off because of the planet's spin.


Quote:

On the subject of turning off the gravity generator, one thing that's been overlooked to this point is the effect of centrepital force. Remember, Shadow is a spining planet. If the gravity was suddenly reduced to 1/16th of what it was, the atmosphere would spin off like a spiral galaxy.
Centripedal forces were present on Mars yet Mars loss of atmosphere still took a great deal of time. I don't think Centripedal force would swing it significantly.



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Monday, September 25, 2006 11:44 AM

ZOID


citizen wrote:
Quote:

Centripedal forces were present on Mars yet Mars loss of atmosphere still took a great deal of time. I don't think Centripedal force would swing it significantly.

Ahhh... But Mars has maintained a constant gravitational 'field' since it formed. To anyone's certain knowledge or best approximation, so has every other planetary body in the universe, with the exception of those suffering some cataclysmic event that would rapidly reduce its mass. Nothing -- to anyone's knowledge -- loses or gains gravitational attraction without a corresponding loss or gain in mass (or rate of acceleration, but let's not go there).

That's what I meant when I said an actual observation of such an event would be difficult to obtain: It just never happens that a volume of atmosphere at Earth-normal pressure -- spread across something as massive as the Earth itself -- suddenly gets compressed by less than an Earth-normal gravitational field. I don't know if that helps imagine it better, or not...

So here's another thought experiment. Say you are on the Moon, and that you have filled a large balloon with typical Earth gases to precisely the same atmospheric pressure as found on the Earth at sea level (approximately 14.7 lbs. per square inch). If you totally rupture the balloon, so that all the gases are immediately released from containment in 1/16th of Earth-normal G, what do you suppose the gases would do? Would they escape slowly from the balloon, or would they fly away at a higher rate than they would on Earth?

Expand the balloon to encompass the entire globe of the Moon, and then rupture it completely as above. Would the gases escape more slowly than with the smaller balloon, faster than with the smaller balloon, or would they escape at the same rate?

Or maybe better yet: Imagine bursting a balloon on Earth that has been filled with air compressed to 16 atmospheres, or 235.2 psi...

Somebody else mentioned hurricanes. Remember what those actually are? Massive low-pressure zones. And they're not even 'low' compared to the low pressure zones you'd get all across the face of the globe by magically reducing Earth's grav to 1/16th of its normal 'pull'... And there would be no containment as with hurricanes by surrounding high pressure areas or gravity to hold it to the planet's surface.

We used to have all kinds of mathmaticians and scientists hanging around these parts. I'd really like to hear somebody break it down in a realistic way. I'm just doing it intuitively; but it occurs to me that you couldn't mess with a planetary body's enveloping atmosphere without drawin' back a stump. There's a lot of entropy in one o' them things...



Respectfully,

zoid

P.S.
Remember: There's no such thing as gravity, the world sucks. (A joke. Is this thing on?)
_________________________________________________

"There's that word again: "heavy". Why are things so heavy in the future? Is there a problem with the earth's gravitational pull? " -Dr. Emmett Brown, Back To The Future

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Monday, September 25, 2006 12:08 PM

CITIZEN


Well actually some theories suggest that Mars gravity has reduced, so I hear, but personally I don't hold much stock in them.

But there are theories for Mars atmosphere loss that suggest that Mars had more atmosphere than it's gravity could hold on to. I suspect the extra gas would have come from volcanic emissions in that scenario. Mars 'dies' its volcanic emissions cease but it still takes thousands (millions) of years for it's atmosphere to reduce to current levels.

I'm not sure the balloon analogy works all that well. If I've learnt anything from astrophysics its that our conventional Earth bound intuition is usually wrong up there. A popping balloon is a violent explosion because you have a lot of air under a lot of pressure trying to pass through a very small hole that also acts as a weak point in the surrounding material. This is totally unlike the gravity switch off scenario.

Point is a balloon with a really big hole in it doesn't pop. I think a closer analogy would be if the entire skin of the balloon was to become porous (since there is still gravity acting on it). You wouldn't get an explosion, you get a gradual deflation.



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Monday, September 25, 2006 12:59 PM

ZOID



citizen:

Sure, the balloon analogy works. When someone releases a weather balloon, they don't fill it all the way up. In fact, they just fill it enough to get it airborne. But as it rises into 'thinner' air (i.e., higher altitude atmosphere at lower pressure), the balloon expands to its full size.

It's all about the pressure.

That's why it's more like a popping balloon than one that gets slowly drained. A small pinhole causes a total catastrophic failure of the structure in which the compressed air is held. This would be analogous to an immediate reduction in gravity, which holds air compressed to the surface of the Earth, by its own 'weight'.

This has been fascinating. I can tell we're both sorta immovable on our opinions. But it's been fun scouring Wikipedia for supporting facts...



Respectfully,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'

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Monday, September 25, 2006 1:19 PM

CITIZEN


No because the balloon analogy gives one specific faliure point, gravity would reduce over the entire area, not one tiny point like a small hole, so there would be no bottleneck, larger hole, less 'push'.

Further more gravity does not act like the skin of a balloon, it's different, and the effects of gravity not being there anymore would likewise be wholly different .

But yeah, it might be best to leave it there, we seem to be moving toward the possibillity of arguing in circles...



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Monday, September 25, 2006 1:25 PM

ZOID


zounds! double-post!

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Monday, September 25, 2006 1:29 PM

ADAMWANKENOBI


As far as how Mal paid for Serenity, I say he ripped off some Alliance facility and broke into the vault or something like that.

Quote:

I think so, I tend to think of it like this:
FireFly/Serenity/Books written by Joss: Canon
Books not written by Joss (VC's, Novelisations): Canon except where they directly contradict the above.
RPGs and Fan speculation: Not canon but as good as you can get where they don't contradict the above.



That's basically how the Star Wars canon works.

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Monday, September 25, 2006 2:35 PM

MAL4PREZ


Hear me, for I am a scientist. (ding ding ding do I get a prize?? ) physics and math majors for undergrad baby, and a phd in geophysics.

um, sorry for flashing all that. It's just so you know I'm not making this up. Much.

The Mars analogy doesn't work. Neither does any comparison to any known planet, because in the `verse we live in right now gravity does not change like what Zoid is talking about. In fact, I never heard about the gravity of Mars changing. The only way it could have is if Mars lost mass, which seems unlikely... It may have lost atmosphere, but not gravity. (uh, there are theories as to how that happened, but those are not for here and now.)

In the fictional situation where gravity is artificially created, the increased force of gravity would make many more gas molecules "stick" to the planet then would have naturally.

Let's get mathy. All the atmospheric molecules are in a state where the inward pulling and outward pushing forces balance. What does this include? I'd say:

Inward: natural + artificial gravity
equals
Outward: centrifugal (spin), solar wind (shears off outer layers), and the internal pressure of the atmosphere ie temperature ie molecules bouncing off eachother

there may also be magnetic stuff - Van Allen belts. But let's ignore that, okay? It's further out and smaller. And weird.

If you suddenly - and I mean suddenly - turn off the artificial gravity, which in this case is 15 times the natural gravity (to go from 1/16 to 1 g), you lose 15/16 of your grip on the atmosphere. The outer thin layers will get stripped by solar winds, but the biggest effect would be everything going off tangentially. Like Zoid said - it would look like a spiral galaxy.

From the surface, if you were bolted down and could watch from a stationary point, everything would appear to rise up but curve slowly toward the west as you follow a curved path beneath it.

Sorry Zoid, but I don't think the oceans would boil - not the way water in a pot boils. They'd be too busy floating away with most everything else. They would gradually turn into water vapor, but you wouldn't be able to see that in all the chaos.

I also don't think the pressure loss would be immediate, not like flipping a switch. It would take some time for the atmosphere to strip off, but the dropping pressure would do nutty things. There would be high pressure gradients causing insanely strong winds, crazy temperature gradients, water condensing into huge dense clouds and heavy rain (snow/hail/etc??) - but keep in mind the rain/snow/hail would fall at 1/16 g and also it would fall into the rising water and air, so who knows what that would look like! Also - insanely good lightening...

It'd be a fabulous time. Um - in the way that good end-of-the-world disaster books are fabulous.

Zoid - I wish I'd thought of this!



-----------------------------------------------
I'm the president. I don't need to listen.

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Tuesday, December 27, 2011 12:47 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


How did Mal get the money to purchase Serenity and get her running?

He was a Companion, of course.

Servicing men rubbed him raw. Hence his iritation with Inara.


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Tuesday, December 27, 2011 1:18 PM

BYTEMITE


Old thread, lots of good ideas.

Just wanted to comment that from what I've heard, Zoe wasn't in the Overlanders until two and half years after the war started.

Although I've always thought she might have been part of a militia family for the Rim that took itself very seriously, and the Alliance's victory put her and any surviving family out of a job.

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Tuesday, December 27, 2011 6:14 PM

YELLOWJACKET


It's been suggested that Zoe Contributed to the purchase of Serenity, but I doubt it given this quote...

"You paid money for this, sir? On purpose?"

This quote implies that she was outside the purchase altogether, and it also sets up the fact that Zoe valued a 45 year old, broken down Firefly to be of little or no value. And old fixer upper runs cheap.

Mal also mentions in Out of Gas that they had 'work waiting for them' when Serenity wasn't running, so paying jobs were already lined up, and he may have borrowed against the pay off from those jobs.

I don't think Mal's reputation began with Serenity. I think it started before, and money from previous jobs paid for Serenity.




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Wednesday, December 28, 2011 3:29 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


In the movie Mal's rank is listed as Captain. He might have gotten a promotion after Serenity Valley which came with a bonus. Since the war was affectivly over at that point he never used the rank and still identifies as a Sergent. His officer bonus plus all his savings migth have been enough to buy Serenity.

Zoe might not have helpped buy the ship, but she might have helped pay for the repairs.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Wednesday, December 28, 2011 4:27 AM

BYTEMITE


Yeah, in the movie and some of the supplemental material, he got a field promotion to captain on account of most of the chain of command ahead of him tended to get themselves blown up while trying their hardest to get their own people blown up too.

Also, I recall reading he did get a stipend, but that Indy credits were worthless when they lost the war.

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Wednesday, December 28, 2011 12:26 PM

EBFIDDLER


As far as I know, this question is not answered in canon. In my fanfic version, Mal's ma saw trouble coming shortly before Shadow was destroyed, and liquidated what assets she could and wired them to an account in his name on another world. I based this (completely made up) story on Mal's comment in "Our Mrs Reynolds" that his mother's ranch had 40 ranch hands. From what I've researched about your typical western ranch, any ranch that retained 40 ranch hands as permanent employees would have been a rather substantial ranch indeed. Mal would have been the son of a well-off family, even if most (or nearly all) of their wealth was tied up in land and the family business. I'm also assuming in my fanfic scenario that this account was not confiscated because Mal was not a commissioned officer. Non-comms and private soldiers are not typically held accountable for the actions of the command. (The Operative's dossier on Mal lists Mal as a non-trialed Browncoat.) If he'd been a commissioned officer, his assets might well have been forfeit.

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Wednesday, December 28, 2011 5:53 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Good theories.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Saturday, January 14, 2017 10:49 PM

TRAPSTAR


I know this is an old thread, but I just finished Firefly and wanted to weigh in. In Star Wars they explained that Han won the Falcon in a pazaak game, but they never mention how Mal got Serenity even in its broken down condition.

I've worked professionally in the merchant marine for several years so I'll try to apply my experience since modern day sailing is as close to space travel as we can get these days unfortunately. A ship like Serenity would be pretty expensive in today's money, possibly close to half a million dollars. Some ship auction websites have ships with similar dimensions for about $400k. In the show the ship isn't functional in its current state which surely devalues it, however one engineer has the capability to get it running again so no major repairs/shipyard is required.

Mal could've easily taken out a loan provided he had a decent portion of start up capital from the ranch or investments and a plan to make good money trading, etc. The bigger question for me is how did he get the license to fly such a ship? In the modern shipping era it is moderated by what tonnage license you have to legally be a captain or officer on a merchant ship. Mal's ship is relatively large (as compared to the Falcon for instance) and would require a larger credential to command that would require years of experience prior to starting out on Serenity as captain. Han on the Falcon could get his license (legitimately that is) easier due to it being much smaller internally.

Anyway, that was kind of a ramble. Just made me curious because I know most guys that sail commercially dream of doing something like Han or Mal and we're always trying to think of ways to make it happen.

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Sunday, January 15, 2017 12:04 AM

WISHIMAY

There will be fire and brimstone and Earth will be destroyed!... in several billion years!----------------------------------------- "Well, so long Earth. Thanks for the air... and what-not." -Philip J. Fry


Quote:

Originally posted by Trapstar:
The bigger question for me is how did he get the license to fly such a ship?



I never got the impression HE had to have a license to fly, just one to OWN the ship, like a title. That's what he needed Wash for, right?

I imagined they only care about who's flying the thing when it gets crashed or they call for help.

And then again, maybe his mom had a ship and he learned to fly it in Shadow, before the war? Maybe he was licensed in the war, like my spouse was licensed to drive the big vehicles in the army? Troop transport stuff.

Just my two cents, anyhow...

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Sunday, January 15, 2017 3:24 PM

THGRRI


How did Mal get the money for Serenity? He stole it of course.

____________________________________________

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Monday, January 16, 2017 10:02 AM

REAVERFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Trapstar:
I know this is an old thread, but I just finished Firefly and wanted to weigh in. In Star Wars they explained that Han won the Falcon in a pazaak game, but they never mention how Mal got Serenity even in its broken down condition.

I've worked professionally in the merchant marine for several years so I'll try to apply my experience since modern day sailing is as close to space travel as we can get these days unfortunately. A ship like Serenity would be pretty expensive in today's money, possibly close to half a million dollars. Some ship auction websites have ships with similar dimensions for about $400k. In the show the ship isn't functional in its current state which surely devalues it, however one engineer has the capability to get it running again so no major repairs/shipyard is required.

Mal could've easily taken out a loan provided he had a decent portion of start up capital from the ranch or investments and a plan to make good money trading, etc. The bigger question for me is how did he get the license to fly such a ship? In the modern shipping era it is moderated by what tonnage license you have to legally be a captain or officer on a merchant ship. Mal's ship is relatively large (as compared to the Falcon for instance) and would require a larger credential to command that would require years of experience prior to starting out on Serenity as captain. Han on the Falcon could get his license (legitimately that is) easier due to it being much smaller internally.

Anyway, that was kind of a ramble. Just made me curious because I know most guys that sail commercially dream of doing something like Han or Mal and we're always trying to think of ways to make it happen.

What is it like in the merchant marine? Sounds kinda interesting.

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Monday, January 16, 2017 8:38 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


IIRC there was some mention of eventual payout following the war - but it took years for him to get it. Zoe supposedly got some too. Not sure if it was due to family memeber death benefits, or restitution for lands destroyed, or what not.
Joss based the whole concept on the aftermath of the American Civil War, and I have forgotten what types of payment the Confederate Soldiers got after losing the war.

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Monday, January 16, 2017 10:34 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by THGRRI:
How did Mal get the money for Serenity? He stole it of course.

____________________________________________



Common people he was a crook. He stole the money he needed to purchase Serenity.



____________________________________________

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Tuesday, January 17, 2017 12:26 AM

WISHIMAY

There will be fire and brimstone and Earth will be destroyed!... in several billion years!----------------------------------------- "Well, so long Earth. Thanks for the air... and what-not." -Philip J. Fry


Mal wasn't a "crook", he was an anti-hero. He did what he did to fight back against a corrupt government that destroyed his whole planet. The Train Job proved he wasn't just out to steal for stealin's sake.

I doubt he would have had much access or ability to steal before he even had the ship, but that's a question for Joss. Can't nobody HERE answer it...

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Tuesday, January 17, 2017 10:18 AM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by Wishimay:
Mal wasn't a "crook", he was an anti-hero. He did what he did to fight back against a corrupt government that destroyed his whole planet. The Train Job proved he wasn't just out to steal for stealin's sake.

I doubt he would have had much access or ability to steal before he even had the ship, but that's a question for Joss. Can't nobody HERE answer it...



Never said he wasn't fair and true wish, just that he stole things. He smuggled contraband. Wishie, that's a crook.

____________________________________________

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Tuesday, January 17, 2017 7:42 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by THGRRI:
Quote:

Originally posted by Wishimay:
Mal wasn't a "crook", he was an anti-hero. He did what he did to fight back against a corrupt government that destroyed his whole planet. The Train Job proved he wasn't just out to steal for stealin's sake.

I doubt he would have had much access or ability to steal before he even had the ship, but that's a question for Joss. Can't nobody HERE answer it...


Never said he wasn't fair and true wish, just that he stole things. He smuggled caravan. Wishie, that's a crook.


What did he smuggle without a ship?

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Tuesday, January 17, 2017 7:50 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by THGRRI:
Quote:

Originally posted by Wishimay:
Mal wasn't a "crook", he was an anti-hero. He did what he did to fight back against a corrupt government that destroyed his whole planet. The Train Job proved he wasn't just out to steal for stealin's sake.

I doubt he would have had much access or ability to steal before he even had the ship, but that's a question for Joss. Can't nobody HERE answer it...



Never said he wasn't fair and true wish, just that he stole things. He smuggled caravan. Wishie, that's a crook.

____________________________________________


What did he smugle without a ship?



Try and think things through before you play gotcha.

____________________________________________

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Thursday, January 19, 2017 8:28 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by THGRRI:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by THGRRI:
Quote:

Originally posted by Wishimay:
Mal wasn't a "crook", he was an anti-hero. He did what he did to fight back against a corrupt government that destroyed his whole planet. The Train Job proved he wasn't just out to steal for stealin's sake.

I doubt he would have had much access or ability to steal before he even had the ship, but that's a question for Joss. Can't nobody HERE answer it...



Never said he wasn't fair and true wish, just that he stole things. He smuggled caravan. Wishie, that's a crook.



What did he smugle without a ship?



Try and think things through before you play gotcha.


You're saying he smuggled ships?

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Thursday, January 19, 2017 8:34 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Wishimay:
Quote:

Originally posted by Trapstar:
The bigger question for me is how did he get the license to fly such a ship?



I never got the impression HE had to have a license to fly, just one to OWN the ship, like a title. That's what he needed Wash for, right?

I imagined they only care about who's flying the thing when it gets crashed or they call for help.

And then again, maybe his mom had a ship and he learned to fly it in Shadow, before the war? Maybe he was licensed in the war, like my spouse was licensed to drive the big vehicles in the army? Troop transport stuff.

Just my two cents, anyhow...


Mal could fly the ship, Morena could fly at least a shuttle, couldn't Zoe fly also? But they needed a professional dedicated Pilot. When they were too busy conniving and tracking and confiscating, they needed somebody to tend to the piloting and navigation details, in real time. River could fly too, but that was a different matter.

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Friday, January 20, 2017 11:40 AM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by THGRRI:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by THGRRI:
Quote:

Originally posted by Wishimay:
Mal wasn't a "crook", he was an anti-hero. He did what he did to fight back against a corrupt government that destroyed his whole planet. The Train Job proved he wasn't just out to steal for stealin's sake.

I doubt he would have had much access or ability to steal before he even had the ship, but that's a question for Joss. Can't nobody HERE answer it...



Never said he wasn't fair and true wish, just that he stole things. He smuggled caravan. Wishie, that's a crook.



What did he smugle without a ship?



Try and think things through before you play gotcha.


You're saying he smuggled ships?



Yeah, he smuggled ships Maybe you should try again; maybe not?

____________________________________________

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