GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Serenity is 'fascist'?

POSTED BY: GOAT
UPDATED: Thursday, August 31, 2006 21:13
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Tuesday, August 22, 2006 6:41 PM

GOAT


I saw an article on Serenity, so I thought I would post it. Not sure I agree with the guy, but whatever...

FTFA: http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NzYyYWFlZjYxMDdlYjU5ZmYwZDQ0N
zJhZmEwMTMxMTI
=
Serenity Now [Jonah Goldberg]

So, I've caught Serenity a few more times on cable during my migrations. And while I know Firefly fans are more sour on it compared to the show (vide Derb et al); And, I'm a big skeptic of trying to overread pop culture through partisan ideological lenses; But, it is striking what a conservative movie Serenity is. In the 1930s, when ideological content was deliberate and ideological deviationism was denounced, Serenity would be villified as "fascist" for its opposition to social planning. The upshot: a capitalistic freebooter opposes the egalitarian — democratic — "Parliament." It's übermenschy representative — a barely updated version of the HG Wellsian fascistic types parodied in Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow — is beyond good and evil in his pursuit of a utopian world. Parliament's last major attempt at making a utopia — weeding out aggression through better chemistry — resulted in death and horror on a grand scale, the lesson being that such enterprises are always doomed. Indeed, to the extent Mal Reynolds has an ideological agenda it is merely to stand in the way of Utopia and the desire of tyrants to impose happiness on people whether they like it or not. Beyond that, he simply believes in people living their lives as they see fit, so long as their interests don't collide with his.



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Tuesday, August 22, 2006 6:48 PM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.


Quote:

it is merely to stand in the way of Utopia and the desire of tyrants to impose happiness on people whether they like it or not.


Yeah? So what? People have the right to be sad if they want to be, angry if they want to be, crazy if they want to be - so long as it doesn't affect anyone else's right to do the same.

If Serenity is fascist, I'm a platypus.

---

Go to http://richlabonte.net/tvvote/ and vote Firefly!

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Tuesday, August 22, 2006 8:50 PM

MISSTRESSAHARA


Sounds more like a description of Demolition Man than Serenity.

Did he even WATCH the movie? I may not care for it as much as the show but really, fascist?

Is the guy on the far right or something? Oooo I'm going to get burned for that.

If I'm a bitch, then life just got interesting

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Tuesday, August 22, 2006 9:24 PM

BAD2VERSE


I think the author ought to at least know what a fascist really IS before using the word.. they can't decide between the Webster definition, or the popular definition from Mussolini.

'Prolly the same folks that said the (Butchered) movie "Starship Troopers" was about fascism (It HAD to be, they wore tall boots and trench coats!)

If it's ANYTHING political, I'd say it was "Libertarian" or "Constitutionalist"... A guy (and crew) that wants the intrusive Government to leave him alone... Not everyone LIKES being told what to do, when to do it, labeled, and "monitored" (for our own good of course )

"we meddle, People don’t like to be meddled with.
We tell them what to do, what to think. Don’t run, don’t walk. We’re in their homes and in their heads and we haven’t the right. We’re meddlesome."

At least they are talking about it.. and ANY publicity is good publicity.


________________________
..but eatin people alive, where does THAT get fun?

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Tuesday, August 22, 2006 9:38 PM

FLORALBUNNY


>"In the 1930s, when ideological content was
>deliberate and ideological deviationism was
>denounced, Serenity would be villified
>as "fascist" for its opposition to social
>planning."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Define "Fascist" and then tell me this sentence
holds up. We'll skip spelling and grammar
just this once.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>"...a capitalistic freebooter opposes the
>egalitarian — democratic — "Parliament."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
We are shown in the course of the film the
contrast between well-off colonies and those
onto which settlers were dropped with bare
subsistence supplies. Admittedly, this was
emphasized in the series, but it's there in
the film. Apparently some are, in the well-
known phrase, more equal than others.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>"Indeed, to the extent Mal Reynolds has an
>ideological agenda it is merely to stand in the
>way of Utopia and the desire of tyrants to
>impose happiness on people whether they like it
>or not. Beyond that, he simply believes in
>people living their lives as they see fit, so
>long as their interests don't collide with his."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That's Fascist?

Young River: "We meddle..."

I think Mal may be more Libertarian than anything
else. And it isn't about happiness alone; it's
about "the desire of tyrants to impose" anything.

Where is that alleged egalitarian -- democratic
-- "Parliament" of a few lines back in this
review?

Turned to tyrants, every one.

(When will they ever learn?)

Nothin' against you, goat, but I think our
Serenity fan at National Review needs a good
sit-and-think.

bun
mystified

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Tuesday, August 22, 2006 9:56 PM

AGENTROUKA


I don't get the fuss.

I agree that the word is used wrongly, but you all don't honestly believe that the author was implying that the movie is fascist and that the crew and all are in the wrong, are you?

The blatantly wrong usage of "fascist" aside, I can't really disagree with the opinion. It's what the whole movie was about: standing in the way of utopia because Utopia is false.

What are you all getting so upset about?

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Tuesday, August 22, 2006 10:22 PM

HX55


If standing up for what you believe and daring to fight the good fight makes someone a 'fascist', I'm going to have to re-think my hobbies and goals in life.

Practice Random Acts of Piracy

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Tuesday, August 22, 2006 11:09 PM

KINGHENDRICK


good points floralbunny.. i think this person has to look into his description of fascist.. seems like a stretch to me

I don't want a signature!

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Wednesday, August 23, 2006 2:04 AM

DISCARIOT


I don't agree with Mr. Goldberg's assessment. It seems to me that it should be obvious to anyone that Serenity and Firefly, if anything, are anti-fascist. As far as his usage of the term "fascist" goes, it occurs to me that these days the actual meaning of the term is less important to those using it than its emotional punch when applied to something they don't like. So, I say screw what this pinko commie thinks.

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Wednesday, August 23, 2006 6:35 AM

ECAMBER


Ok. I'm an idiot. At least I'm sure I am in the eyes of some people. And writing what I'm about to write might just make confirm that for others.

I can see where the author is coming from. It's not to say that Serenity, or its crew, is "fascist." But the Parliment and the Alliance as a whole does come across as authoritarian and hierarchical (but to be fair what society isn't a bit of a hierarchy anyway?). The big powers of the 'verse, where Serenity is sometimes floatsom on the currents do not seem like particularly democratic or left of center government.

The author took a moment to say that in the 1930's this movie would have been considered fascist by some (or most, whatever). Considering what was going on in the 30's this isn't really a stretch of the imagination. The Depression combined with the ecylogical climate (The Dust Bowl) left most Americans hungry, homeless and peniless. The American Dream became a nightmare for tens of thousands of people. Most of them came to this country either as immigrants or through parents/grandparents who were immigrants... and most grew up with the maxim that American is the land of opportunity. Suddenly there was no opportunity and the ideas of democracy and capitalism were challenged. Not to mention this was the decade which became a precursor to the Hitler regime. While Americans faced the uncertainty of even surviving, we maintained a democracy. Countries like Germany and Italy, who also faced similar hardships economically were not so lucky and fell to dictatorships.

Not trying to be some smart ass or a know it all... but using my imagination I can see why someone whose basic premise of patriotic identification (being proud of the ideal of opportunity as an American) would be tarnished... and seeing the autocratic, tyrannical government of the Alliance would be considered an example of a fascist government.

So yeah, Firefly, Serenity, the crew and most of the people portrayed on the outer rim (and indications of few within the core - those who helped Simon boost River from the Academy) are not fascist. But the Alliance, Parliment (which is never said to be in power through a voting system), the Academy and even the Comapanion Guild do seem fascist to some small degree.

I don't know what I'm saying. I never know what I'm saying.

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Wednesday, August 23, 2006 7:13 AM

MICJWELCH


He didn't say Serenity was Fascist. He said it was conservative. And he's right. In another time it would have been considered fascist. But not today.

The reason he called it conservative is because it states clearly that governments should not interfere too much with people's lives. BTW - That is what us crazy "Right Wing" people believe. Let the people govern themselves. I don't want to turn this into a political debate, but the Left Wing wants the government to be involved in everything. That doesn't mean they're going to put some drug in the air supply. I didn't say they were evil. Just that they want the government to be more involved. If you can relate to what Mal said about not letting the government make people "better", you may not be as liberal as you think. Personally, I'm only a little to the Right Wing. Both sides have good ideas.

Again, I'd hate to turn this into a political debate. Just giving my two cents.




"We may experience some slight turbulence, and then... explode."

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Wednesday, August 23, 2006 7:18 AM

ZOID


Hell yeah, we're fascists! And if Mr. 'Social Engineering' Goldberg doesn't like it, we'll just send some Brownshirts... er, I mean, Browncoats... over to his house to 'cleanse' him of the error inherent in his thinking!

Seriously though, there is a difference between Individualism and Conservatism/Fascism. Perhaps Mr. Goldberg should understand the terms he uses before he uses them...

Hitler had some plans for 'social engineering', too, and they involved a homogeneous mindset on the part of The People, as in the Alliance. I'm glad that my forefathers laid their lives on the line to stop Hitler's plans to create a 'perfect world', and I don't consider them fascists for doing so...

Goldberg's just clueless, and frankly I'd expect a bit more discernment when throwing the term 'fascist' around, from someone with that surname. What? He didn't know his grandparents?



Incredulously,

zoid

ETA:
It looks like Goldberg (isn't this guy a wrassler?) is an Ultra Conservative, and was trying to say being labeled a 'fascist' isn't necessarily a bad thing; in fact, if you get called one by an Ultra Liberal, it's practically a badge of honor.

But, imo, being an 'Ultra' anything -- Left or Right -- is just wrong-headed. Nature abhors Rigidity even more than She abhors a Vacuum...
(NB: Like Nature, I likewise abhor a Vacuum. Thank God I have teenagers to do it for me. That and Mow The Lawn.)
_________________________________________________

"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'

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Wednesday, August 23, 2006 7:25 AM

FELLOWTRAVELER


Pinko Commie? Isn't The National Review a leading conservative magazine? It sure ain't The New Republic!


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Wednesday, August 23, 2006 7:57 AM

DQBABY76


Quote:

Originally posted by zoid:

Hitler had some plans for 'social engineering', too, and they involved a homogeneous mindset on the part of The People, as in the Alliance. I'm glad that my forefathers laid their lives on the line to stop Hitler's plans to create a 'perfect world



Wow, I really like this comparison. It just brings a flood of parallels when I think of it. I can almost see the Captain talking to Hitler

"So me and mine gotta lay down and die so you can live in your better world."

Wow, I can also see Hitler as the Operative where he's so devout in his belief that he doesnt care that what hes doing is evil but it must be done, so he thinks. Wow.

I dont know anything about politics so I have nothing to add about this subject. i'm not even sure if I know the true meaning of the word "fascist". but its still a good movie.





-------------------------------------------------
Shepard used to tell me...can't do something smart, do something right.
I'm so into Firefly, my butt glows in the dark.

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Wednesday, August 23, 2006 8:02 AM

DISCARIOT


"Irony" or "joke" ringing a bell here? Apparently I didn't do well with either. Ack! That was bad, wasn't it? Back to lurking then.

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Wednesday, August 23, 2006 8:09 AM

ZOID


dqbaby76:

Yup. And my Dad and his brothers, and my mother's brothers, all of whom (of age) saw combat in WWII, would have undoubtedly been labeled 'conservatives' and 'fascists' by the Liberal 'thinkers' of their day, too. They simply didn't want the government intruding into their lives, but were quick to join with their fellow countrymen in common cause, in that particular iteration of 'The War To Make The World Safe For Democracy".

I believe in Individualism, not Collectivism, regardless who's organizing the collective. I think Mal'd see it my way...

I mean, are we intelligent, adaptable humans, or are we cattle to be domesticated and herded? I choose to retain my own individuality, at any cost.




Respectfully,

zoid

P.S.
My Dad was only 16 when he joined the Navy, one day after Pearl Harbor...
_________________________________________________

"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'

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Wednesday, August 23, 2006 8:15 AM

FELLOWTRAVELER


Quote:

Originally posted by discariot:
"Irony" or "joke" ringing a bell here? Apparently I didn't do well with either. Ack! That was bad, wasn't it? Back to lurking then.



Sorry dude. Tone is sometimes hard to read on these things.

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Wednesday, August 23, 2006 8:17 AM

NOSADSEVEN


Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
I don't get the fuss.

Here! Here! (Or is it, "Hear! Hear!"?)

The guy said that it would be villified as "fascist". He didn't say it was fascist, and he put the term in quotes - implying an incorrect use of it.

I think Serenity would be seen as subversive in the 1930s. Within the context of the big government New Deal making lives better, a movie demonstrating the evils of just such a government program would be seen as threatening, and deserving of villification.


~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ain't. We. Just.

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Wednesday, August 23, 2006 8:20 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by zoid:

I mean, are we intelligent, adaptable humans, or are we cattle to be domesticated and herded?

I don't believe I can answer that question with one broad, general response...

Not a Replicant Chrisisall

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Wednesday, August 23, 2006 8:25 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by nosadseven:
Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
I don't get the fuss.

Here! Here! (Or is it, "Hear! Hear!"?)

The guy said that it would be villified as "fascist". He didn't say it was fascist, and he put the term in quotes - implying an incorrect use of it.




Thank you!!!

I thought I was the only one... *g*

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Wednesday, August 23, 2006 8:34 AM

YLESS


Quote:

Originally posted by ECAmber:
...

Countries like Germany and Italy, who also faced similar hardships economically were not so lucky and fell to dictatorships.

...

But the Alliance, Parliment (which is never said to be in power through a voting system), the Academy and even the Comapanion Guild do seem fascist to some small degree.




I don't have really anything to add to the main debate, both sides seems to have been well covered however it should be pointed out that the nazi party were democratically voted in so there's no reason the current Alliance weren't.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Aftermath: The Renegade:

http://www.fireflyfans.net/sunroomitem.asp?i=12456 - Prologue.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/sunroomitem.asp?i=12503 - Chapter 1 - The Moon of Talgos.

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Wednesday, August 23, 2006 8:43 AM

SHINY


Quote:

Originally posted by micjwelch:
The reason he called it conservative is because it states clearly that governments should not interfere too much with people's lives. BTW - That is what us crazy "Right Wing" people believe. Let the people govern themselves.



Unless it has to do with sexual freedom, medical marijuana, stem cell or climate change research, gay marriage, state and local education decisions, communications privacy, or abortion, where the Federal Nanny State is obviously needed to keep us in line. :P

---

I don't need a gorram back-spaceship driver!!!

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Wednesday, August 23, 2006 9:16 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by ECAmber:
and even the Comapanion Guild do seem fascist to some small degree.




The Companion Guild? How so? :)

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Wednesday, August 23, 2006 11:43 AM

MICJWELCH


Quote:

Originally posted by Shiny:
Quote:

Originally posted by micjwelch:
The reason he called it conservative is because it states clearly that governments should not interfere too much with people's lives. BTW - That is what us crazy "Right Wing" people believe. Let the people govern themselves.



Unless it has to do with sexual freedom, medical marijuana, stem cell or climate change research, gay marriage, state and local education decisions, communications privacy, or abortion, where the Federal Nanny State is obviously needed to keep us in line. :P

---

I don't need a gorram back-spaceship driver!!!



Like I said, I don't want this to be a debate. But any government should put SOME limits on people. The reason we can vote is so that WE can decide what those limits are. I'm all for putting all those things you mentioned to a vote.




"We may experience some slight turbulence, and then... explode."

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Wednesday, August 23, 2006 11:44 AM

TEACHDAIRE


Quote:

Originally posted by bad2verse:
I think the author ought to at least know what a fascist really IS before using the word.. they can't decide between the Webster definition, or the popular definition from Mussolini.

'Prolly the same folks that said the (Butchered) movie "Starship Troopers" was about fascism (It HAD to be, they wore tall boots and trench coats!)



Actually Starship Troopers is set in a totaltarian fascist state (only citizens can vote or have kids, and the quickest way to become a citizen is to enlist). Check out the book if you want to go further...



-------------------------------------------------
For every battle honour, a thousand heroes die along, unremembered and unsung...

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Wednesday, August 23, 2006 12:11 PM

SHINY


Quote:

Originally posted by micjwelch:
Like I said, I don't want this to be a debate. But any government should put SOME limits on people. The reason we can vote is so that WE can decide what those limits are. I'm all for putting all those things you mentioned to a vote.



If you don't want a political debate, then you shouldn't make inflammatory and one-sided claims about those you disagree with:

Quote:

Originally posted by micjwelch:
That is what us crazy "Right Wing" people believe. Let the people govern themselves. I don't want to turn this into a political debate, but the Left Wing wants the government to be involved in everything.



You could switch the words "Right" and "Left" from your rhetoric and it would apply just as well. The Left Wing wants freedom and the Right Wing is for government intrusion and hand-outs:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101040202-582330,00.
html

http://www.conservativenannystate.org/cns.html#1


---

I don't need a gorram back-spaceship driver!!!

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Wednesday, August 23, 2006 12:19 PM

BAD2VERSE


Quote:

Originally posted by Teachdaire:
Actually Starship Troopers is set in a totaltarian fascist state (only citizens can vote or have kids, and the quickest way to become a citizen is to enlist). Check out the book if you want to go further...



Oh I'm VERY familiar with Heinlein.. I have an autographed Hardback copy of most of his books (Showing my age now ;)

The Book was MUCH different, and explained his reasoning, and MEANING, of a "Citizen".

While I don't agree with all of his views, when you have a significant number of people that Vote for their leaders based on "Looks" or "Popularity" or "Just to keep the other party out of office", you can't really fault his logic of only allowing "voters" to come from the pool of people that have placed their bodies between danger and their loved ones...

In the book, the life of a non-citizen is MUCH easier than the life of a citizen, and non-citizens have all the same rights, EXCEPT that they can't interfere with the political proccess. The only people allowed to hold political office (or vote) are informed and have PERSONAL knowledge of conditions around the 'verse... Not just pablum fed to them by a biased media.

Basically, they have their own, informed, opinions, and believe in them enough to go through the trials of becoming a "Citizen".

Heinlein also said that no nation that depended on a conscript military deserved to endure.. if your people won't fight because they believe in the cause, then it ain't a good enough cause to fight over..

He's got some valid points, and that's just ONE of his (many) possible solutions to the mess most nations seem to be in today.

And I have to say that it's a shame that a person's vote (Who has put their life and body on the line for their country, voluntarily) has the same weight as some airhead's that simply likes the other fellow's clothing choice.

Again, The MOVIE makes it out to be a totaltarian fascist state, the BOOK does Not (Which is why I said the movie butchered his book).

________________________
..but eatin people alive, where does THAT get fun?

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Wednesday, August 23, 2006 12:34 PM

BAD2VERSE


Quote:

Originally posted by micjwelch:
Like I said, I don't want this to be a debate. But any government should put SOME limits on people. The reason we can vote is so that WE can decide what those limits are. I'm all for putting all those things you mentioned to a vote.



As long as it doesn't affect me, personally, or my family, it's really none of my business what someone else does... However, I would extend that to say "As long as what someone is doing does not DIRECTLY affect the lives of others in a negative way, then it's none of our business what they do"..

I say "Directly" because EVERYTHING gets intertwined if you go down enough links... IE: "the guy not wearing a helmet on a motorcycle may make my insurance rates go up".. but they're going to go up regardless, so if he wants to feel the breeze in his hair, fine by me, doesn't DIRECTLY affect me, none of my business.

It's HARD to learn that what we "personally" don't like, doesn't mean that it's wrong... And we shouldn't force our views onto others.

Someone on another site the other day (Walter Williams) said something I think is very true,
It goes something like this:

'Joe Busybody sees Walter Williams in a restaurant having too many biscuits with gravy, and is concerned about Walter Williams health, as well as the possible effects on insurance rates of people like Walter Williams eating too many biscuits and getting high cholesterol.

IF Joe Busybody comes over to Walter E. Williams table and tries to take that biscuit away from him, he's going to get punched square in the nose;)

Joe Busybody doesn't have the moral courage to do something like that PERSONALLY...instead he goes to the mighty Fedgov and tries to get a law passed regulating how many biscuits Walter E Williams can eat.

Williams' conclusion: If you don't feel sufficiently outraged by someone's behavior to try to stop it PERSONALLY, or if you lack the moral courage to do so, don't take the coward's way out and try to get the Fedgov to do your dirty work for you!'


________________________
..but eatin people alive, where does THAT get fun?

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Wednesday, August 23, 2006 12:42 PM

ESTHER


To add a German view (at least, we have some experience with "fashism" ...)

I agree with what was said on this board: the aliance is shown as a system bordering to fashism, or rather totalitarism. There is no clear definition of fashism, but it should involve a "lead figure" and a "nationalist" feeling about it. Both is not there in Firefly. The Alliance wants to have everyone under one rule. (Hitler wanted to kill or enslave anybody, who was not what he considered "German".)
On the othet hand, I don't see any voting going on at Firefly (there was an election shown in Babylon 5, I remember ...), and even if: there can be voting in totalitarian regimes - just that there is only one party, you can (and have to ) vote for.(Russia, German Democratic Republic)


But another thought:
From Star Treck, viewers are used to indentify with the "Humans" and their government. "The Federation of Planets", that's in fact the "United states", that's the "we". I have the airy feeling, this is one of the reasons, why Firefly (and also Babylon 5) had such a hard time. In both series, the main characters separate from the government, the government is "bad", humans are "bad" (whereas in Star Treck, if somebody is "bad", it's always an alien - or a human "posessed" by an alien). These are thoughts, not many people have the guts to spend their evening-after-work with, I guess.

I a way, I think Firefly can be seen as a political show, not fashist but, on the contrary, critizising a government, which thinks it knows, what is best for everyone (even for people not living in the country, it governs).

Esther





Love my captain!

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Wednesday, August 23, 2006 12:45 PM

YLESS


If only people did that, it would stop so many soccer mums who haven't the 'balls' to stop their kids doing something going and trying to get the government to stop it (I say this as I personally know the guys 'responsible' for the 'hot coffee' incident I'm sure many of you have heard of, but that's an entirely different matter).

Edit: this was supposed to quote BAD2VERSE :/

Edit 2: sorry if I seem a bit off-topic, I'm just trying to avoid political debates.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Aftermath: The Renegade:

http://www.fireflyfans.net/sunroomitem.asp?i=12456 - Prologue.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/sunroomitem.asp?i=12503 - Chapter 1 - The Moon of Talgos.

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Wednesday, August 23, 2006 1:03 PM

BAD2VERSE


Quote:

Originally posted by YLess:
If only people did that, it would stop so many soccer mums who haven't the 'balls' to stop their kids doing something going and trying to get the government to stop it (Snip).

Edit: this was supposed to quote BAD2VERSE :/

Edit 2: sorry if I seem a bit off-topic, I'm just trying to avoid political debates.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



While it can be viewed as a political debate, it's EXACTLY the point Firefly/Serenity was trying to make....

Again, as River said, "We meddle. People don’t like to be meddled with.

We tell them what to do, what to think. Don’t run, don’t walk. We’re in their homes and in their heads and we haven’t the right.

We’re meddlesome".

Seems on-topic to me, but then again, who am I?

________________________
..but eatin people alive, where does THAT get fun?

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Wednesday, August 23, 2006 1:46 PM

TRAVELER


I'm a little puzzled my ownself. He mentions Serenity. But I'm begining to think he is not refering to the ship and it's crew, but the movie title. In other words it sounds to me like he is saying the Alliance is fascist. It is his poor choice of words that make it appear that Mal and his crew are fascist.

What makes fascism so frightening is that people like Hitler and Himmler actually believed their own words. As mentioned above they came at a time when the world was in serious shape and people were hungry for anything to improve their lives.

It is true the Nazi party was elected to govern the people of Germany. Only after getting dominant in the government did they start taking dictatoral powers. If you put bread in a humgry mans hands he will seldom ask where it came from. And people did not complain as Hitler took full control because he brought bread. Stained with blood, but no one asked why.

So I can't imagine this comment was aimed at Mal and his crew. I think the term Serenity implies the movie, thus implying the Alliance.

So unless this guy is an idiot, and that could be a possibility, it is his last words that pissed me off. Can I say pissed? Saying that Mal only cared if someone got in his way. In the series, I sure this guy never watched it, Mal stood up for others a couple of times. "Our Mrs Reynolds" and "Heart of Gold".

Mal looks beyond himself and his crew. He helps others in need. So I think this guy should see the entire series before he makes broad statements like that. He fought in the war for the freedom of all, not just himself.

I aim to be pissed
Traveler


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Thursday, August 24, 2006 7:54 AM

BAD2VERSE


Quote:

Originally posted by traveler:
What makes fascism so frightening is that people like Hitler and Himmler actually believed their own words. As mentioned above they came at a time when the world was in serious shape and people were hungry for anything to improve their lives.

It is true the Nazi party was elected to govern the people of Germany. Only after getting dominant in the government did they start taking dictatoral powers. If you put bread in a humgry mans hands he will seldom ask where it came from. And people did not complain as Hitler took full control because he brought bread. Stained with blood, but no one asked why.



Actually, in the strictest definition, Germany was a totalitarian dictatorship practicing "Nazism" (Even though Hitler was "Elected"), and was later called a fascist State as the meaning of the word mutated a bit...

Italy was a fascist state under Benito Mussolini.. The difference was that "Nazism" said that the state existed to support and nurture a superior race, whereas fascism control thought that the cultural race differences existed to serve the state in different roles (More of a cast system).

Hitler tried exterminating the "underclass" only leaving the "Superior race", and Mussolini simply set the "Underclass" to work in menial roles in a cast system they couldn't break out of.

The two concepts are FREQUENTLY (and wrongly) blended and no distinction is made now most of the time, which is incorrect.... but history will have it's way, so I guess it's a moot point (Or as Joey on Friends said, "A Moo Point".. A cow's opinion, who cares?;)...

The two ideologies wouldn't be connected had Hitler and Mussolini not been such close "friends".. actually the two concepts had always been distinctly different up until right after WW2 when they became blended...

I only know this because it used to drive my College Western Civ. Proff. crazy if we incorrectly called Nazi Germany "fascist"... He'd go off on a 30 minute rant about the differences and then accuse the transgresor of not paying attention ;)

None of this would matter if it wasn't in the article incorrectly.. we "Assume" that authors in national media outlets know their history, but the more YOU learn about History, the more you wonder where these so-called "Experts" got their educations, because they frequently butcher history unknowingly and a whole generation ends up with incorrect information... Glenn Beck on CNN the other night told a PHD "I only have one semester of college, I'm a recovering drug addict and alcoholic, but ANYONE can see ____"... and I thought "THIS guy is qualified to report national news... how????"


________________________
..but eatin people alive, where does THAT get fun?

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Thursday, August 24, 2006 4:22 PM

PATIENCE


Quote:

Originally posted by micjwelch:

Like I said, I don't want this to be a debate. But any government should put SOME limits on people. The reason we can vote is so that WE can decide what those limits are. I'm all for putting all those things you mentioned to a vote.




Dude, people like you are scaaaaaaary.



_______________________________
You do that, and you'd best make peace with your dear and fluffy lord.

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Monday, August 28, 2006 4:38 AM

ALLIETHORN7


It is true, some would label us 'facist's', but they would be wrong. Serenity was never about resisting the idea of a free Government and setting up a dictator and all that rot. It's about resisting conformity, a concept with which I heartily agree!
If we will not resist what the Government does, and simply roll over and go with everything they say, then that is more Facist than anything else. A DEMOCRACY (which is the U.S.A.) means that the people have an option to resist what the Government does. To that effect, Mal is a democratic if anything, although you stretch the term a bit. The Alliance controls everything about the folk in Firefly, even though they think they don't. In truth, Serenity is about Resisting such things as Fascism and Communism and conformity in general.

-Danny

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Monday, August 28, 2006 5:12 AM

ANTISOCIALIST1


I for one would have to say that most goverments are corupt but I have no quams with them rulling because in the end people make their own desitions. So even though I dont agree with the magority of govermental sistems I wouldnt say that were anti goverment we all just really love this tv searies.


the only reall antisocialist

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Monday, August 28, 2006 5:41 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


gotta agree with most of what Bad2Verse has to say about Heinlein-- I've read just about every word RAH wrote myself. I see Mal as pretty close to a Heinlein hero, individualistic, libertarian, and pretty close to anarchist.
I see a lot more in common with The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress than with Starship Troopers, but nobody's ever made a film out of TMIAHM. Maybe somebody should?
Wonder if we should start a Heinlein Thread here, or if there's been one? But it would prob'ly degenerate into what most Heinlein threads do , most places-- a lot of pointless argument and name calling.

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Monday, August 28, 2006 6:50 AM

BAD2VERSE


Quote:

Originally posted by Alliethorn7:
If we will not resist what the Government does, and simply roll over and go with everything they say, then that is more Facist than anything else. A DEMOCRACY (which is the U.S.A.) means that the people have an option to resist what the Government does.(Snip)
-Danny



Actually we're a "Republic" with a Democratic form of government ("And to the Republic, for which it stands...").

There's a BIG difference.. WE elect our representitives to make decisions for us, hopefully based on the will of the people.. but we expect those leaders to be more informed about issues than "The People", and to make good decisions for us (Even if the decisions aren't popular). If we "Voted" on EVERYTHING (As true a Democracy would), we wouldn't ever get anything done, and since many people DON'T keep up with issues at all, it would quickly degenerate into a brawling mob... No Democracy has ever made it past the 75 year mark as a country that I know of.

________________________
..but eatin people alive, where does THAT get fun?

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Monday, August 28, 2006 6:58 AM

BAD2VERSE


Quote:

Originally posted by antisocialist1:
I for one would have to say that most goverments are corupt but I have no quams with them rulling because in the end people make their own desitions. So even though I dont agree with the magority of govermental sistems I wouldnt say that were anti goverment we all just really love this tv searies.


the only reall antisocialist



As a wise man once said "given time, ALL governments degenerate from their best forms, to their worst"

________________________
..but eatin people alive, where does THAT get fun?

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Monday, August 28, 2006 7:22 AM

RIMGIRL


Perhaps the quasi-navy structure on board Serenity should be replaced by an anarcho-syndicalist commune. You know, with an executive officer for the week. Only Jayne could never be in charge.
______________________________________________

Did it suddenly get hot in here?

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Monday, August 28, 2006 7:33 AM

CYBERSNARK


Quote:

Originally posted by bad2verse:
Actually we're a "Republic" with a Democratic form of government ("And to the Republic, for which it stands...").

There's a BIG difference.. WE elect our representitives to make decisions for us, hopefully based on the will of the people.. but we expect those leaders to be more informed about issues than "The People", and to make good decisions for us (Even if the decisions aren't popular). If we "Voted" on EVERYTHING (As true a Democracy would), we wouldn't ever get anything done, and since many people DON'T keep up with issues at all, it would quickly degenerate into a brawling mob... No Democracy has ever made it past the 75 year mark as a country that I know of.

Yeah. The most effective "true" democracy I know of is fictional, and that was the Borg Collective, and even their foreign policy was. . . bad.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Monday, August 28, 2006 9:13 AM

NOSADSEVEN


This is the first of my small series of thread hijacks...
Quote:

Originally posted by bad2verse:
None of this would matter if it wasn't in the article incorrectly.. we "Assume" that authors in national media outlets know their history, but the more YOU learn about History, the more you wonder where these so-called "Experts" got their educations, because they frequently butcher history unknowingly and a whole generation ends up with incorrect information... Glenn Beck on CNN the other night told a PHD "I only have one semester of college, I'm a recovering drug addict and alcoholic, but ANYONE can see ____"... and I thought "THIS guy is qualified to report national news... how????"


I wouldn't put too much faith in those bearing fancy pieces of paper (or, sheepskin, I guess), either. Glenn Beck's point is not that he is smarter and therefore informing the public from his wisdom. His point is that he is just a regular flawed guy, asking questions of the PhD, and representing an honest and personal point of view. He's never claimed to be a reporter. But the fact is, reporters are also just regular flawed guys, despite their delusions of objectivity. I much prefer someone like Beck, upfront about who they are and where they come from (recovering Top 40 DJ) and how that influences their view of things, than supposed objective, educated reporters.

So, I agree with you. Reporters don't know what the hell they're talking about. All you have to do is be involved in something that is being reported to see all of the consistant glaring inaccuracies. (This was a fun, though frustrating, excercise during Serenity's release. It was rare to come across an article that wasn't full of inaccurate or just plain wrong information.) It is safe to apply that level of error to every article or news broadcast you consume. The only problem is, if you don't know the information yet, you don't know which part is inaccurate.

So, to me, the only kind of 'news programming' worth consuming is that in which there is a known factor - i.e., the person themselves. That knowledge is what helps you, as a consumer, spot the inaccuracies even if you're not informed on the topic.


And on Beck, just for the record, I believe he's just a recovering alcoholic, not drug addict (not that it matters that much). And his one semester of college was at Yale, with a personal letter of recommendation from Joe Lieberman. (Yes, I know too much about Glenn Beck. What can I say, I have a talk radio habit...)

But, to pretend to bring this back on thread topic... The article in the original post illustrates my point. It is very hard to interperet what the author's point is, without some background on who he is, and what his political viewpoints are. He purposely used an incorrect application of the term "fascist" to make his own political point, but that point is lost, or simply confusing without the larger context of who he is. In his defense, this was published in a place where it's assumed any reader would already know that information.

~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ain't. We. Just.

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Monday, August 28, 2006 9:23 AM

NOSADSEVEN


Quote:

Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:
gotta agree with most of what Bad2Verse has to say about Heinlein-- I've read just about every word RAH wrote myself. I see Mal as pretty close to a Heinlein hero, individualistic, libertarian, and pretty close to anarchist.
I see a lot more in common with The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress than with Starship Troopers, but nobody's ever made a film out of TMIAHM. Maybe somebody should?


Heh. Funny you should mention that. This interview is a year old, so I'm not terribly optimistic about the outcome, but it's still relevant to your question, and Firefly fans in general:

http://www.ifmagazine.com/feature.asp?article=1316
Quote:

From iFMagazine interview with Tim Minear, 8/9/05:

iF MAGAZINE: What’s next for you?

MINEAR: I’m doing another pass at MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS [an adaptation of the Robert Heinlein sci-fi novel]. It’s for producers David Hayman and Mike Medavoy. I did a pass of that last year, turned it in and they had some notes and they came to me this year and we talked about what the next pass would be. They were giving me their notes and what they were saying, “maybe you can do this, or do that,” and in my infinite wisdom said, “I have an idea, why don’t I do a whole new version. Why don’t I throw this out and start over.” They were like “you would do that?” And I’m like “yeah,” so that’s what I’m getting ready to do now.

iF MAGAZINE: Is it hard to adapt Heinlein?

MINEAR: Yes. Maybe HAVE SPACESUIT AND TRAVEL, which is really about that one guy, maybe that would be easier, but this is about a revolution. It’s big and it has a lot of really complex political ideas. It’s hard in that respect. How do you personalize this? There’s a lot of talking in the book – theoretical talking about Libertarian ideals and political structure and that sort of thing – how do you take that and make it immediate and dramatic and emotional? How do you say that stuff through scenes and action, as opposed to characters sitting around and having a conversation? That’s difficult. The other thing that is difficult is that there is also a certain amount of psychological pressure that I am trying to remove from myself when you’re adapting something like Heinlein. This book is so important to so many people and you don’t want to f*ck it up. So there’s that. You want to keep true to spirit of it, and you want to take this enormously long book, that takes place over a long period of time and try to do a version of it that will play for two hours on a movie screen. The other thing is to make sure the powers that be in Hollywood don’t force you to turn it into some Marxist screed on socialism, when Heinlein was a Libertarian and it’s about free-market capitalism. You want to try and not make it about an evil corporation. That’s the trick.

iF MAGAZINE: It’s just in the script-stage? No official greenlight yet?

MINEAR: Exactly. What they want to do is take it out to big name directors and they’ve named a couple of directors and it would be awesome if that happened. The people who optioned this book – Mike Medavoy and David Hayman – optioned it because they liked the book and the ideas are inspiring particularly the idea of retelling the American Revolution from this sci-fi point of view.



~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ain't. We. Just.

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Monday, August 28, 2006 9:30 AM

MAGHAFFAR


Gotta agree with NEWOLDBROWNCVOAT about agreeing with BD2VERSE about Heinlein... I suggested awhile back that Joss should do "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" as a movie... And he could cast the Firefly crew in the roles. Book could be the Professor, Mal could be Manny, Jayne could be the voice of Mike, etc. All the same non-conformist elements as Firefly, only the patois & swearing would be in Russian instead of Chinese. Unless the whole Russian thing gets dropped. OK, so who do I get to call a bad name and start a pointless argument with? C'mon... Raise your hands -- no pushing in the back there...

[EDIT: Just read the above post -- would be nice if someone who loved Heinlein's work and had the writing / storytelling ability of Tim Minear got TMIAHM up on the screen]...



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Monday, August 28, 2006 9:30 AM

CATTLEORCATALYST


I think there are a few basic things wrong with this Goldberg guy I couldn't not say something about. For one thing, calling Mal capitalistic--a truly pro-capitalism person reinvests capital into the system that produces it. However, Mal takes jobs not to perpetuate the economic system in which he lives, but to provide himself and his crew with needed supplies. This Goldberg guy is trying to make Mal sound like a pro-capitalist warrior, or a "freebooter" as he calls it, but in order to live, Mal must subvert supply-and-demand capitalism and take matters into his own hands--the current economic system does not provide for him.
Calling the Alliance "egalitarian" and "democratic" is so nonsensical I don't even think it needs to be pointed out anymore--there is no evidence that supports the idea that any voting took place to elect Alliance officials into power, or if they have term limits, checks and balances, or any of the other trappings that indicate democracy and egalitarianism.
One last thing, in response to some of our Conservative friends. Y'all have consistently stated that Conservatives, Right-Wingers, whatever you want to call 'em, support a decrease in government activity in the lives of its citizens. Yet, as Shiny so eloquently stated, it was the Conservatives, not the Democrats, who wanted to tell Terry Shiavo's husband what to do and take away his freedom of choice. It was the Republicans, not the Democrats, who prevented women from voting, African Americans from becoming full-fledged citizens, oppose allowing women the right to have an abortion, oppose the right of homosexuals to marry, and the list goes on. In each of these instances, the Republicans involve the government in our lives and the Democrats try to protect our rights, and our independence, by keeping the government out.



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Monday, August 28, 2006 9:50 AM

FREDGIBLET


Quote:

Originally posted by Cybersnark:
Yeah. The most effective "true" democracy I know of is fictional, and that was the Borg Collective, and even their foreign policy was. . . bad.



Except for one thing...the Borg don't vote. The borg (with the apparent exception of Locutus, the Queen, and a few outcasts) are a hive mind, they are essentially one person. One person does not constitue a democracy, one person simply makes decisions and implements them.

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Monday, August 28, 2006 9:54 AM

FREDGIBLET


Quote:

Originally posted by Teachdaire:
Actually Starship Troopers is set in a totaltarian fascist state (only citizens can vote or have kids, and the quickest way to become a citizen is to enlist). Check out the book if you want to go further...



Um...being a citizen is not required to have kids (or else the main character would have never been born). And enlisting is not only the quickest way to get a vote...it is the only way.

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Monday, August 28, 2006 9:57 AM

FREDGIBLET


Quote:

Originally posted by bad2verse:
(Which is why I said the movie butchered his book).



Disagree...butchered isn't a strong enough word.

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Monday, August 28, 2006 10:33 AM

BAD2VERSE


Quote:

Originally posted by nosadseven:
(Snip)Glenn Beck's point is not that he is smarter and therefore informing the public from his wisdom. His point is that he is just a regular flawed guy, asking questions of the PhD, and representing an honest and personal point of view. He's never claimed to be a reporter.



I agree.. I actually like the guy, he asks the tough questions, and keeps it simple and doesn't let the other guy "weasle"... "Common Sense".. I just was kinda stunned that he'd admit to all that on National TV, but I do admire him for it... He's not pretending to be anything he's not, and he DOES strike a nerve with the "Average flawed person" (as we ALL are in some manner or another).

Quote:


And on Beck, just for the record, I believe he's just a recovering alcoholic, not drug addict (not that it matters that much). (snip)



He said he was a recovering Drug addict also at the same time he said he was a recovering Alcoholic.

Point being (I think) is that he DOESN'T pretend to be a "reporter", and admits he's not qualified to be one.. and as I thought about this for the last week or so, I see that he just asks the questions that the average American wants to ask, and doesn't let the "big boys" weasle out of their positions, or worse, take a stance on BOTH sides of an issue so they can hedge their bets and later say "I said that would happen" when they ALSO said, "It won't happen"...

For some reason, at the time, I was under the impression that he was also a reporter, but have since found out he's not, and doesn't claim to be one.

Good thread, very thought provocating... and I commend you for ACTUALLY being "thought provoking"... usually I've found that people that CLAIM to be "Thought Provoking" are actually just being @$$holes and using "Thought Provoking" as an excuse... It's refreshing to see someone be "Thought Provoking" and have a really good insight, and accurate information... Kudos.



________________________
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Monday, August 28, 2006 10:58 AM

BAD2VERSE


Quote:

Originally posted by CattleorCatalyst:
(Snip) One last thing, in response to some of our Conservative friends. Y'all have consistently stated that Conservatives, Right-Wingers, whatever you want to call 'em, support a decrease in government activity in the lives of its citizens. Yet, as Shiny so eloquently stated, it was the Conservatives, not the Democrats, who wanted to tell Terry Shiavo's husband what to do and take away his freedom of choice. It was the Republicans, not the Democrats, who prevented women from voting, African Americans from becoming full-fledged citizens, oppose allowing women the right to have an abortion, oppose the right of homosexuals to marry, and the list goes on. In each of these instances, the Republicans involve the government in our lives and the Democrats try to protect our rights, and our independence, by keeping the government out.



Actually, That whole issue (Terry Shiavo) made me angry... I'm a Libertarian, so BOTH "Parties" usually end up making me angry... that was the Shiavo's business, no one else's.

Fed-Gov needs to STAY OUT of our lives.. if it's not hurting anyone else, then it's none of our (or anyone else's) business.

Personally, What people do on their own property (and ESPECIALLY in their own homes) is ABSOLUTELY none of my business.. "The Gay Issue" is a non-issue as far as I'm concerned, again, none of my business... I can't have a baby, so I don't see why I should even have an opinion on Abortion or women's issues, So I keep my personal feelings to myself on those matters also (However, if you have any excess babies, I'll be happy to take 'em, as would MANY other Families that love children).

We need more than the "Standard two parties", "Bad and Worse", to choose from... they are the same animal by a different name anyway. "The lesser of two evils is still Evil" (You can quote me on that come election time ;)


And to go futher, I think we oughta legalize ALL drugs, and sell them at the ABC store like Alcohol, with the same taxes on them.. that would put drug gangs out of business INSTANTLY... when was the last time anyone heard of an "Alcohol gang"? Or an Alcohol-addict breaking into homes to support his habit? As long as they do it at home and don't drive, it's their business if they want to destroy their lives with Drugs OR alcohol... We could funnel all that "Anti-drug money" into free treatment centers (For those that want it), AND into the war on Terrorism, And STILL save a few billion dollars a year, PLUS make money from the sale of legalized drugs.. there'd be MUCH less need for Police, and MUCH less excuse for government to poke into our lives (Those last two points is why they'll never legalize drugs BTW)

But that's just me, Your Milage May Vary ;)

In the setting of "FireFly" it looks as though they don't have laws about guns, drugs, or much of anything else for that matter (At least not "Out in the black" or on the fringe worlds).. and that's the way it SHOULD be in my opinion.

"Anytime someone says, 'there oughtta be a law', then there probably oughtn't"

Sorry, I got off on a tangent rant.. But I agree with you on the "Democrat versus Republican" issue.. so I stepped off that bus and found a third party I COULD agree with.. it DOES take some time to get used to thinking as "A Free Man", and to stay out of other people's lives... but once you do, it's liberating ;)

________________________
..but eatin people alive, where does THAT get fun?

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