GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Did anyone notice that in the 'Serenity' episode, when Simon...

POSTED BY: QUIETSERENITY
UPDATED: Wednesday, July 26, 2006 05:18
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Monday, July 24, 2006 7:16 AM

QUIETSERENITY


I know we've discussed the Firefly and Serenity discrepancy at length, but here's something that my husband just noticed today...

The whole time Simon is telling his story to everyone, there is soft background music behind him. He's rambling, spilling his guts, in point of fact. Up until the point that he says "They're hurting us. Get me out."

At this point, Zoe asks him how he did it. And the music stops. There isn't anything behind him but silence. This is where my husband believes the lie begins. As soon as Simon says the word money.

I was always listening to the words, not the music behind them. I know that Whedon said he had to manipulate what had already been said for the movie, but...

Could we have been tipped off from the beginning?


Mal: You know, you ain't quite right.
River: It's a popular theory.


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Monday, July 24, 2006 10:50 AM

DESKTOPHIPPIE


It always made sense to me that Simon wouldn't tell people he didn't yet trust that Alliance personell had seen him, and that he was guilty of assaulting several of them. I don't think Joss "knew" Simon had rescued River himself at the time, but for me it doesn't clash.

The music thing is damn interesting though!





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Monday, July 24, 2006 11:19 AM

TEACHDAIRE


I agree. It was just a convenient excuse to use to a group of what he thought at the time "mercenaries".




For every battle honour, a thousand heroes die along, unremembered and unsung...

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Tuesday, July 25, 2006 5:17 AM

INDIGOSTARBLASTER


Interesting, but I think there are still too many discrepancies for it to have "really" happened as shown in the BDM (the cryogenic freezing of River, the fact that Simon didn't know her amygdala had been stripped as of the episode "Ariel", the fact that Simon seemed genuinely taken aback by Kaylee's description of how River could handle a gun).

One interesting fan-theory I read elsewhere on this site is that the BDM version is River's dream/fantasy about how she was rescued -- that she dreamed/fantasized that her beloved older brother had come swooping in and that she had been able to participate in her own rescue, rather than what really happened -- being frozen and shipped off by an anonymous resistance group.

Indigo S.

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Tuesday, July 25, 2006 5:29 AM

LISSA37


Quote:

Originally posted by IndigoStarblaster:

One interesting fan-theory I read elsewhere on this site is that the BDM version is River's dream/fantasy about how she was rescued -- that she dreamed/fantasized that her beloved older brother had come swooping in and that she had been able to participate in her own rescue, rather than what really happened -- being frozen and shipped off by an anonymous resistance group.

Indigo S.



That's an interesting theory... but I don't see how it could be real. We see the people at the Academy watching the tape of Simon taking River in the BDM. They can't share River's fantasy. Unless... do they mean all of that was her fantasy? I don't know.

The music thing is a neat observation, whether it means anything or not. It seems possible that maybe Simon was lying all along... after all, he didn't really know if he could trust the Serenity crew yet or not, right? So, he could've lied to them. Interesting. IndigoStarblaster has a good point, though -- he was told River was trained to be a weapon, why would he be surprised that she can handle a gun? Hmmm. It's a lot to think about.


*****
"I'm a leaf on the wind..." - Wash

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Tuesday, July 25, 2006 5:35 AM

SPACEANJL


Simon was getting ready to blow their little minds when Matthias told him that River was trained for combat. I don't think he was shown that training - he's a bit gobsmacked at her running up the wall - and I also think that Matthias assumes that the 'inspector' has some prior knowledge of their experiments. All Simon is seeing is a bunch of men poking needles in his sister. He states a few times that he doesn't know what they were doing, or why. The BDM had to cram a lot in, and bits fell off.

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Tuesday, July 25, 2006 5:57 AM

GWEK


Simon wasn't lying in the series. Joss has stated that his original intention (in the series) was that it played out as Simon stated, but that, for the movie, he had to trim characters and sub-plots, so in telling a 2-hour story, it became necessary to change his original intention.

While Joss makes no attempt to reconcile the discrepancy (and he does not need to, until Firefly returns to the small screen), a number of fans have done so fairly successfully, and Whedon has said that they've done a good job of it (don't recall which explanation he was referring to specifically).

In essence, there are two different continuities: a TV series continuity in which Simon hires folks to rescue River, and a movie continuity in which he does it himself (there are other discrepancies in the two, but this is one of the most obvious and glaring). Whedon did a similar juggling act when he ret-conned (used "retro-continuity") top bring the Buffy movie more in like with the series.


www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Tuesday, July 25, 2006 9:10 AM

ALLISA


another theory - there is a ship that waits for Simon and River on the "surface" - perhaps these are the underground revolters he spoke of? And they - knowing part of what had been done to River - were uneasy about having her romping about the ship and so suggested it would be easier to smuggle her about in a freezer ;)

You know what the chain of command is here? Its the chain I go get to beat you with to show you whose in command!

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Tuesday, July 25, 2006 9:14 AM

MICJWELCH


Quote:

Originally posted by Lissa37:
They can't share River's fantasy. Unless... do they mean all of that was her fantasy? I don't know.



I have heard that theory a lot actually. It seems to be more of a way of finding a way for Book and Wash to come back. People just want to believe they never died.

I know things changed a bit from the series to the movie. I can believe though that Simon was lying about how he got her out. River might have been in cryo just because it's easier for one person and his luggage to disappear than two fugitives.





"We may experience some slight turbulence, and then... explode."

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Tuesday, July 25, 2006 9:19 AM

LISSA37


Quote:

Originally posted by micjwelch:
Quote:

Originally posted by Lissa37:
They can't share River's fantasy. Unless... do they mean all of that was her fantasy? I don't know.



I have heard that theory a lot actually. It seems to be more of a way of finding a way for Book and Wash to come back. People just want to believe they never died.



"We may experience some slight turbulence, and then... explode."



I wouldn't mind that! Wash... *tear*

No, seriously, as much as I'd give just about anything to hear that Wash didn't really die... If it were all River's fantasy or in some other way not real, that would be absolutely bizarre and I don't think it would go over very well with most audiences.

*****
"I'm a leaf on the wind..." - Wash

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Tuesday, July 25, 2006 9:24 AM

GUYWHOWANTSAFIREFLYOFHISOWN


Wash is still alive.



http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/llama.php
-try it out, I dare you

98% of teens have smoked pot, if you are one of the 2% that haven't, copy this into your signature

I'm so into Firefly, my butt glows in the dark.

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Tuesday, July 25, 2006 10:21 AM

INDIGOSTARBLASTER


Hmm. I could buy a post-rescue cryo-freezing, I guess. Especially if maybe she flipped out onboard the rescue ship once the adrenalin of the rescue was over (and that would also explain some of the disorientation when she came out of cryo). Or maybe they had actually been prepared to bring her out unconscious (maybe that pulse thing was supposed to hit everyone, including her) and they went with that plan once she was out, even though she was awake.

So, in our retcon, Simon had a crucial part in the rescue, but lied about his exact role to Mal and co. on account of how he didn't actually know or trust them yet.

At the time he was asking about what Dr. Matthias had done to her, he wasn't actually focussing on what was being said (and I don't remember if the amydala stripping was specifically mentioned in the BDM, anyway), he was just trying to figure out where everyone in the room was and whether they were within range, and how much med support she would need once he pulls those electrodes out of her head; which would explain why he wanted detailed scans in "Ariel".

And even though he was told she was being trained as a weapon, this was still his little sister they were talking about and he never really did believe that someone so peaceable and kindhearted would actually be able to scale walls and shoot guns and the like, which would explain his bewilderment on that front later.

God bless fanwankery -- it lets me pretend the 'verse is real, one day at a time :)

Indigo S.

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Tuesday, July 25, 2006 11:41 AM

ZOID


Hey, ever'body!

Just had to chime in a little, here. Ummm, I think there was a conscious effort in the movie to 'rehabilitate' Simon's character in one fell swoop, hoping nobody would notice.

Simon is so inept throughout the series that even his psychic sister calls him a "boob". If he's 'playing dumb', wouldn't she know? I think she would. So, I'll buy the 'dumb' part, but not the 'playing'.

Secondly, rewatch the episodes where Simon poses as someone else. Remember his portrayal of the rich mud buyer? In the series, Simon doesn't have a disingenuous bone in his body, and he's really only a boy, with a code of honor given him by his parents, not earned through experience.

But in the opening of the movie (flashbacked, supposedly before the events of the series), Simon's all 'growed up', a man of action, and a master of disguise and wiles...

Uh... Yeah.

The Simon we knew and loved from the series would have stunned himself and then fallen to the floor, while River's torturers tried to figure out what just happened...



Respectfully,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"That there? 'Xactly the kind of diversion we coulda used." -Jayne Cobb, Firefly, "Shindig"

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Tuesday, July 25, 2006 11:50 AM

CLIOMUSE


He certainly had no problem figuring out how to get into an Alliance hospital and lying his way through it in "Ariel." He's really only a boob when he's trying to interact with people who aren't from his world.

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Tuesday, July 25, 2006 12:40 PM

ZOID


Cliomuse wrote:
Quote:

He certainly had no problem figuring out how to get into an Alliance hospital and lying his way through it in "Ariel." He's really only a boob when he's trying to interact with people who aren't from his world.

I'm not saying he's not a doctor. I'm saying he's not anything else. Certainly not a master of intrigue, able to sneak into a top-secret government research facility, posing as an Alliance muckedy-muck. (NB: Ariel's was a civilian hospital, without the "Fine Young Cannibals" Blue Hands guys, let's not forget.)

'Series Simon' would have wet himself...



v/r,
-zed

P.S.
I know a lot of folks are pulling for the Simon character, and I am too. But in the series he was endearingly clueless; in the movie, he was a "double-nought spy" (Beverly Hillbillies reference, y'all, as in 'James Bond, double-nought seven'). That's an inconsistancy in the development of his character, no matter how you try to spin it. I think Joss didn't have time or space in the movie for 'clueless', so he changed him to 'cool' for the sake of expediency...
_________________________________________________

"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'

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Tuesday, July 25, 2006 12:56 PM

TALISKER


Another theory on River's freezing: Simon was worried that River's condition might become worse if it was left untreated. So, he stuck her in a cryo pod until he could get her to proper treatment facilities (he may or may not have had a coherent plan for doing this, before he decided they were better off on Serenity). Also, while two fugitives might be able to hide from the Alliance, it becomes rather more difficult if one of them is prone to random psychotic episodes...

As for River being made into a weapon: This might not mean being trained with guns and knives. If I were an Evil Alliance Mastermind, I certainly would not send a billion-dollar superwoman into the trenches with the infantry, where a stray bullet or explosion would kill her just as quickly as anyone else. On the other hand, those perfect reflexes and spatial awareness would be rather useful for a fighter pilot.

I see the Alliance as not necessarily knowing what River would be capable of, or intending to use her as a soldier, spy or assassin. It could simply have been an experiment to see what their biotechnology would do, gathering data which might allow them to make reliable super-warriors in 5 or 10 or 20 years' time. "Aha, she performs with extraordinary grace in the tests. A pity she's too unstable for field service, but we should be able to improve on that in the next model..."

Another thought: Might the Operative have been subject to a similar but less severe form of physical/mental alteration and reconditioning? He's not quite sane either, and also has a thing about swords...


=======================================

He killed me, Mal. He killed me with a sword. How weird is that?


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Tuesday, July 25, 2006 1:20 PM

FIREFLYGAL


Quote:

Originally posted by zoid:
Cliomuse wrote:
Quote:

He certainly had no problem figuring out how to get into an Alliance hospital and lying his way through it in "Ariel." He's really only a boob when he's trying to interact with people who aren't from his world.

I'm not saying he's not a doctor. I'm saying he's not anything else. Certainly not a master of intrigue, able to sneak into a top-secret government research facility, posing as an Alliance muckedy-muck. (NB: Ariel's was a civilian hospital, without the "Fine Young Cannibals" Blue Hands guys, let's not forget.)

'Series Simon' would have wet himself...



v/r,
-zed

P.S.
I know a lot of folks are pulling for the Simon character, and I am too. But in the series he was endearingly clueless; in the movie, he was a "double-nought spy" (Beverly Hillbillies reference, y'all, as in 'James Bond, double-nought seven'). That's an inconsistancy in the development of his character, no matter how you try to spin it. I think Joss didn't have time or space in the movie for 'clueless', so he changed him to 'cool' for the sake of expediency...
_________________________________________________

"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'



Remember, Simon was rescuing his beloved mei-mei in Serenity. When it's someone you love, sometimes you're capable of doing the impossible. Any other time he turns back into a boob, more or less.

I aim to misbehave!

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Tuesday, July 25, 2006 1:23 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.


Quote:

Talisker wrote:
Tuesday, July 25, 2006 12:56

.....Another thought: Might the Operative have been subject to a similar but less severe form of physical/mental alteration and reconditioning? He's not quite sane either, and also has a thing about swords...



Maybe he was a precursor.


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Tuesday, July 25, 2006 1:39 PM

KAYNA

I love my captain


Yes characters had to be changed to save time in the movie but I can still rationalize discrepencies.

In the pilot, Simon never specificaly said he didn't participate in River's rescue. He said these people agreed to get her out and into chryo. He didn't say they would do it alone. For me, he doesn't lie, so much as omit parts of the truth. I like to believe that the resistance people got him in and they were the ones with the transport and the chryo. Since these resistance fighters aproached him and not the other way around, I think they knew a bit about what was going on. They knew River was potentially unstable and dangerous so it would make sense for the person that actually went in to be someone she knows and trusts.

As to the clueless thing, he becomes a lot less clueless and bumbling whenever River is in trouble. Joss mentiones in the pilot commentary that Simon becomes a "man of action" when River is in danger. Just look at how he acts in OiS. And yes he was a horrible liar in Janestown. He also had no warning or preperation. And, as previously mentioned, Canton was about as far from the world he knows as you can get.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Op: You're fighting a war you've already lost.
Mal: Yeah, well I'm known for that.

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Tuesday, July 25, 2006 5:05 PM

LISSA37


Kayna -- I like your analysis. Simon does act differently in different situations. He's smart, quick, and brave when River's in trouble or when medicine is involved (I love how he just jumps in and saves that man during "Ariel"!). But, when he's out of his element and perhaps not particularly interested in what he's attempting to do (i.e. the awful lying in "Jaynestown"), he falls apart.

Guywhowantsafireflyofhisown -- In our hearts he is. <3

*****
"I'm a leaf on the wind..." - Wash

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Wednesday, July 26, 2006 2:10 AM

SPACEANJL


In the book of the film, it's stated that Simon has a cryo chamber prepped in the little ship he has waiting, so that he can get his sister to safety quickly and without 'incident'.

As for what River was going to be used for - can I pimp my fic here? I had a little idea that I started to explore in 'Zen and the Art of Mercenary Manintenance.' Graceful, empathic, cultured...sound familiar? And as for the other little idea in there...that's being worked on, too, okay?

*blinks about, Sixth Sense style* I see...plot bunnies...



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Wednesday, July 26, 2006 3:32 AM

ZOID



Kayna:

Like Lissa37, I too like your explanation, at least to a certain extent. Fact is, though, Simon is never clueless, bumbling or awkward in the movie to the degree he was in every episode of the series. As for him bravely taking on Early in Ois: He got shot. He never laid a scratch on Early, who swatted him like a gnat every time he tried. Hello? Are we watching the same series, here? River won that fight, wouldn't you agree?

Nope. Simon's character got a pretty significant facelift in "Serenity". If you like the New Simon better than the Series Simon, then I'm happy for you. And if you want to try to revise the moments of the series to match, go right ahead, but I can't agree with doing so...

I liked Series Simon because he was clueless. Every guy (well, most) has gone through that stage where he just couldn't get out of his own way, especially with girls. But you know what? It wears off. And I would've rather had the movie open and close with only a little progress toward the Good Man I think he would've eventually become. It would have made Jayne passing him the bottle more significant. It would've made his love scene with Kaylee brilliant: Courageous-But-Inexperienced Young Man finds His Soulmate, rather than Mr. Suave bags the Farm Girl Mechanic.

Had the series continued, I think Simon would've eventually become a smart and capable crewman, probably because of a body-and-soul relationship with Kaylee. It may seem trite or antiquated, but there's more than a little truth to the old saw, "Behind every Good Man there is a Woman (telling him how badly he's getting it wrong, heh-heh)." As I said earlier, I don't think Joss felt he had the time. So, he skipped Simon's development.

But I really don't think it's a preferable treatment to go back through the series word-for-word and act-for-act, revising his entire character as being just a ploy. Can't y'all just love him for who he was? Does he really have to be a coverboy for a Harlequin novel before you're satisfied?



Respectfully,

zoid

P.S.
SpaceAnJL:
"Little Nikita", "Point of No Return"
_________________________________________________

"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'

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Wednesday, July 26, 2006 3:43 AM

LISSA37


Wow. That was really well-said, Zoid.

You're right, his development probably was rushed a bit. He did seem to lose the less-competent side and become the braver side pretty quickly. But, maybe it isn't so much that it didn't happen as much as we didn't see it... if that makes any sense. Maybe the theory that could really please everyone -- those who love "old Simon" and those who love "new Simon" -- would be that some of his growing up and developing occurred between the series and the movie. I mean, I still believe that his changes also have to do with what situation he's in... so, perhaps that extra time (that we don't get to see) out in the border planets helped him to get used to his new life, helped him adapt and learn to live in his new environment. Maybe? I don't know.

At any rate, I like him either way... "old" or "new", "clueless" or "suave"/smart and brave, rushed or not. He's, overall, a good guy no matter what state he's in.

*****
"I'm a leaf on the wind..." - Wash

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Wednesday, July 26, 2006 4:00 AM

ZOID



Lissa37 wrote:
Quote:

You're right, his development probably was rushed a bit. He did seem to lose the less-competent side and become the braver side pretty quickly. But, maybe it isn't so much that it didn't happen as much as we didn't see it... if that makes any sense. Maybe the theory that could really please everyone -- those who love "old Simon" and those who love "new Simon" -- would be that some of his growing up and developing occurred between the series and the movie. I mean, I still believe that his changes also have to do with what situation he's in... so, perhaps that extra time (that we don't get to see) out in the border planets helped him to get used to his new life, helped him adapt and learn to live in his new environment. Maybe? I don't know.

At any rate, I like him either way... "old" or "new", "clueless" or "suave"/smart and brave, rushed or not. He's, overall, a good guy no matter what state he's in.


He not only becomes braver and more competent during the intervening 6 months, he becomes braver and more competent before the series ever began. That's kind of the fly in this particular ointment. But, I've really got no problem with that per se: Dramatic license and all that.

My heartfelt objection is strictly to this practice of revising his entire series character as a deception, so that it matches his movie character. To wit, 'the music stops and that's when his double-agent career aboard Serenity begins', because he was just playing possum throughout the series.

That's a game I can't play, and feel obliged to let a little air out of. If folks still want to do that, at least they'll be doing it with their eyes open, rather than just following the rush of enthusiasm within our community to reconcile the two Simons...

Please don't kill Series Simon.



Respectfully,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'

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Wednesday, July 26, 2006 4:31 AM

KAYNA

I love my captain


Zoid, I'm not saying that I don't like Simon on the show. I do. I think he has a bit more depth than movie Simon. And I'm not trying to rewrite his character into some kind of decption or double agent. I know it wasn't meant to be Simon who got out his sister. I just said that he never said he didn't help. I personally think (in an attempt to avoid dscrepancies for myself) he wouldn't have mentioned his part in the rescue because he didn't think it was that important. What was important was that River got out and it never would have happened without those resistance folks.

I know the characters will never completely match up and I'm not trying to make them. I just come up with these little explainations to keep myself from constantly babbling about how it doesn't fit. I'm a bit crazy about continuity and I'd start to sound like River soon.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Op: You're fighting a war you've already lost.
Mal: Yeah, well I'm known for that.

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Wednesday, July 26, 2006 5:18 AM

ZEEK


I agree that the characters were changed for the movie. I don't see Simon as the only example. Jayne and Kaylee were pretty different as well IMO.

The thing is they aren't so far off that they can't be reconciled in my mind. "Series Simon" could easily have pulled off the Serenity escape. The operative tells us why. It's love. It's just like a mother lifting a car off her child. When it comes to River, Simon can summon abilities he doesn't normally possess.

As for Serenity Simon being a sauve hero, I don't see it. He freaks out about the bank heist. He doesn't know what to do, so he chooses to leave Serenity. Even Kaylee tells him how much he's going to stick out dressing the way he does. Later he gets his butt kicked by River. He has a nice awkward speech with Kaylee. Then he forgets his medical bag. Then he gets himself all shot because he has no combat skills whatsoever. All in all he's far from suave in the movie.


Back to the original post, I like the observation. The "money" line does come across differently then most of the rest of Simon's little speech. Could be that's where he started lying about the escape story. I'm not saying he was lying 24/7 from then on out. The rest he was more or less truthful about.

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