GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

River's abilities

POSTED BY: SMAUG
UPDATED: Saturday, July 29, 2006 02:05
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Wednesday, July 5, 2006 7:09 AM

SMAUG


Ok.. this question has been buzzing around in my head for quite some time. I don't believe I have ever seen this discussed or brought up anywhere else or at any other time. If so.. I'm sorry I missed that thread.

Ok.. that being said. This is a question about River's abilities at a specific time in the movie.

River is handcuffed in the room off the kitchen. Jayne decides to take things into his own hands. Exactly what he had in mind.. we don't exactly know. River senses what Jayne is about to do and goes into defensive mode. She takes out Jayne... and realizes she has to show them what Miranda is.. but that they aren't going to be too receptive to her right now.. especially after taking out Jayne with them not knowing that she was only defending herself. Thus.. she does her ninja/assasin thing and makes her way to the bridge. In the process of doing that.. she takes down Simon.. and the shot of her looking down upon him with the gun.

I realize Joss did that to keep us on the edge.. and guessing what the )(#*$)#($* is River doing.. and what is she capable of. Once we find out what she is doing.. my first thought is that she had to take out Simon because she read him at the time that even he would have tried to subdue her. However.. they have a brief conversation and River says that she had to show them.. and Simon says something like.. "you could have just asked"... while nursing his soar throat. To which River replies "I didn't know if you were going to put me to sleep". Or something to that effect.. I may not have the exact wording right.

Anyway... but that is the question.. How could River have NOT known what Simon was thinking? Wouldn't she have known weither or not he would have tried to subdue her and put her to sleep? To me.. it would have made more sense for River to say something to the effect of "I'm sorry.. I had to do it.. because I knew everyone was afraid of me and I wouldn't have been able to explain to everyone in time."

Has there been any indication that there are limits to when and what River is able to read in people's minds? Changing her line to "I couldn't tell what you where thinking at the time." would have left it wide open to their being limits to her abilities.. without having to reveal what they specifically are.

Also.. Why did Jayne not take any flack for what he was about to do? Do you think River didn't reveal that she took Jayne out in self-defense and covered up for him by not revealing what his plan was?

Thoughts?

Smaug..


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Wednesday, July 5, 2006 7:16 AM

MSG


I think River recognizes that Jayne has strong self protection impulses that lead him to do bad things and didn't blame him or tell the crew what he did. As for Simon and the mindreading thing, I don't think that she can read minds to the level of every thought, impulse, etc. She seems to be able to concentrate and get a general picture of the thoughts at that moment or flashes of memory, but I don't think she's ever been the I can hear every thought as you have it kind of reader

I choose to rise instead of fall- U2

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Wednesday, July 5, 2006 7:22 AM

IAMTHEREAVERKING


I tend to agree with MSG, that her Reading capabilities are limited somewhat, more like knowing intent and that sort of thing. When she took Simon out, she had to be quick, because the rest of the crew could have come back and found her if she stopped to chat. River as an all-knowing type of character wouldn't be much fun.

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Wednesday, July 5, 2006 7:30 AM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.


You have the progresion a little off. She woke up from one of her dreams and got a determined look on her face; this was when she was probably thinking "I know what this is about now, I've put it all togehter from the fragments, and I have to show them." According to the novel, right after this is when she picked the lock on her cuffs. She was already on the ceiling when Jayne came after her, and she just took him out without any fuss. Whether because she had sensed what he would do or just knew he would try to stop her doesn't matter, she just knew he had to be taken out.
She tells Simon "I had to show them. I didn't know if you were going to make me sleep." and he said "You could have asked"
Here is my theory; at the time Simon was thinking "Okay, she's attacked Jayne and she's jumping out at me and kind of startled me and the crew is really freaking out. What should I do?" hence she wouldn't have known if he was going to make her sleep or not, so she took him out as well. According to the novel again, she took him out because he was the only one who could really stop her.

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Wednesday, July 5, 2006 10:02 AM

SMAUG


Quote:

I tend to agree with MSG, that her Reading capabilities are limited somewhat, more like knowing intent and that sort of thing.


But at the very end.. Mal says.. "But I suppose you already know what I am going to say."

To which River replys "Yes, but I like to hear you say it". That shows a lot more than just "intent". Plus in Objects in Space.. we clearly see River being able to read emotions, words, thoughts.. down to the very specifics. What isn't shown is if she can read ANYTHING that might be buried in their.... or just what is forfront on someone's mind.

Quote:

Here is my theory; at the time Simon was thinking "Okay, she's attacked Jayne and she's jumping out at me and kind of startled me and the crew is really freaking out. What should I do?" hence she wouldn't have known if he was going to make her sleep or not, so she took him out as well.


That probably makes the most sense. I could see Simon thinking with 20/20 hindsight "Why didn't you just ask?" But in the heat of the moment.. he WAS probably a little freaked out.. and River could read that and logically deduced that her best chance of success was to simply take him down. The "just do it and ask for forgiveness later" line of thinking.

Still unsure of why she is protecting Jayne though. Only Simon and Mal know of Jayne's betrayal on Airel. And now only River knows of this second attempt. Albiet, not to sell her out to the feds this time.. but non the less.. trying to get rid of her against Mal's wishes.

Smaug

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Wednesday, July 5, 2006 10:07 AM

PAGANPAUL


I never read the novel, but I had wondered about that too. She should have been able to tell if Simon was about to put her to sleep or not.

I've also wondered about Mal being very quiet and trying to sneak up on her when she was in the control room. He should have known better. Just how was he planning on sneaking up on a psychic?

There are a few other questions I've had, but it all comes down to "suspension of disbelief". If I analyze it too thouroughly it just spoils the shiny fun.



* - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * -

流口水的婊子和猴子的 笨儿子。
Liou coe shway duh biao-tze huh hoe-tze duh bun ur-tze.
"Stupid son of a drooling whore and a monkey."

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Wednesday, July 5, 2006 11:00 AM

MSG


I think it's because in some ways Jayne is like a little kid. he gets scared and reacts without thinking about morals or consequences. It's not like Mal who thinks through everything first to see if he can live with it. River would see that and know that if he had calmed down, he wouldn't have done anything to hurt her...he just freaked..kinda like Simon...or Mal in the bar after the fruity oatie moment...when it comes down to it ( except for the lapse on Ariel) Jayne's been there for her..especially in the BDM

I choose to rise instead of fall- U2

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Wednesday, July 5, 2006 7:22 PM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.


It was foolish of Mal to think he could sneak up on her, but old habits probably die pretty hard; he's not used to dealing with someone who can sense him. Although give him credit - he did remember she didn't have to be able to see him in order to kill him.

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Saturday, July 8, 2006 7:29 AM

CAVALIER


Quote:

Originally posted by Smaug:
Quote:

I tend to agree with MSG, that her Reading capabilities are limited somewhat, more like knowing intent and that sort of thing.


Plus in Objects in Space.. we clearly see River being able to read emotions, words, thoughts.. down to the very specifics. What isn't shown is if she can read ANYTHING that might be buried in their.... or just what is forfront on someone's mind.

Smaug



In OIS she did not read much connected to immediate events. She saw people deliver soliloquys about their inner feelings. If River can see into the heart of people, then certainly she would have a very good idea about what they were going to do next. But not necessarily a perfect idea.

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Saturday, July 8, 2006 9:47 AM

RIVERMADNESS


Long time lurker first time poster, I have been pondering this very question for awhile now. First we know River is a psychic, stated at the start of the BDM. She is most likely the first psychic created by this program but how psychic is she I believe no one really knows do to her unstable condition a result from the process of her creation.
What we do know is.

1. River can project her thoughts, dispayled in the BDM during the escape when she calls Simons name and her lips aren't moving. Plus I believe this may have been alluded in objects in space, when she chats with crew individually vice the total broadcast when she cats with Jubal Early.

2. She can read minds shown in Safe and stated in the BDM. In safe where she finds out the history of the mute little girl thus being labeled a witch. Plus there are numerous other times hinted at through out the series.

3. She feels every thing as stated by Simon in Ariel. So besides being a psycic she most likely has strong empathic abilities too.

So this is what we know, now to some of the questions.
1.Jayne in the BDM, obviously wrestling over the idea of getting rid of River and the airlock result from the previous time he tried. River beging able to project her thoughts and reading Jaynes intentions and internal conflict it is conceivable that River gave him a mental nudge so she could escape the pantry. Thus no need to report on Jayne since he was nothing more than a tool for escape.
2. Simon in the BDM, I didn't know if you were going to make me sleep? Question if she did mentally nudge Jayne it is conceivable that she needed a little time to mentally recover after testing this new psychic skill, so she could not read simon thus subdued him quickly. River looked ominous standing over Simon the first time I watch the BDM, now she looks more perplexed to me standing over simon.
well these are my thoughts on the subject we know she is a psychic she can read minds and project her thoughts. She can possible plant suggestions in willing minds (i.e. Jayne). Finally she has accepted what she has become (i.e. my turn!!).
So when Joss does continue the story of our Epic hero Mal and his colorful crew we may just learn out how psychic Mal's little albatross truely is.

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Wednesday, July 12, 2006 9:35 AM

CAVALIER


I think it may be a mistake to assume River is a ‘conventional’ telepath, just because she is referred to as a psychic.

psychic (KNOWING)
adjective
having a special mental ability, for example so that you are able to know what will happen in the future or know what people are thinking:

intuition
noun {C or U}
(knowledge obtained from) an ability to understand or know something immediately without needing to think about it, learn it or discover it by using reason:


(Definitions from freesearch)

“River is psychic, and Early is so intuitive he is almost psychic”
Joss Whedon, commentary on Objects in Space

“People tell you things all the time, without talking. The way they move, the way they aren't talking.”
River Tam, R. Tam Session 1


Just because River can read minds is not, in itself, a reason to believe she has some sense denied the rest of us. Given the absence of any other magic powers, or even things like FTL, in Firefly, I tend to go with the most prosaic explanation of Rivers abilities. She seems to have always been very good at reading other people, long before she entered the Academy. It is possible that the effect of the Academies surgery was simply to exaggerate this existing, non-supernatural human ability.

It may be worth pointing out that when River reads someone on-screen, you can sometimes see her “working it out”. I think this is most obvious during “Safe”. River does not firmly say “You are the Patron of this town, and you murdered your predecessor”. She makes an uncertain, almost experimental, remark, and then pauses. Then, after she has had time to absorb everyones reaction to this, she makes another remark, and so on. After her last remark “You were alone with him”, the new Patron orders her burnt alive, and we can all read his mind.

I read once that humans suffer from schizophrenia far more than any other species. The theory is that there is a mental module responsible for generating models of other peoples minds. The output is supposed to be a set of predictions about what other people are, will, did, or might, think. If the connections with the rest of the brain are disturbed, you hear voices, or some strangers thoughts, or feel whatever happens to someone else…

If you tried to improve or grow this module, and it did not quite work, the result might well be someone with an uncanny insight into the people around her, and symptoms very similar to Rivers.

To be honest this strike me as being a lot more interesting than the normal boring telepath. It should give us some insight into what River is, and is not, capable of.

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Wednesday, July 12, 2006 9:54 AM

ORMAYBEMIDGETS


Quote:

1. River can project her thoughts, dispayled in the BDM during the escape when she calls Simons name and her lips aren't moving.


When was this? The escape from the Academy? Or escape from the Reaver attack?

I don't think that River can project thoughts, "mentally nudge", or control people. Nothing in the series or the BDM tells us that she can.

Although, I do have to admit that your theory is very well thought out, and it certainly makes sense, especially:
Quote:

she needed a little time to mentally recover after testing this new psychic skill, so she could not read simon thus subdued him quickly


I just don't think that it's something she can do, as we were never told it was.

I agree with whoever else said it, that she probably couldn't read Simon because his foremost thought wasn't "I gotta knock her out" or "Well, I won't put her to sleep", it was "Oh no, River's out. Is she dangerous? Are they gonna hurt her? How'd she get out?" etc.

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DB: Doesn't exactly fit the thug in the profile alley. Wait, what?

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Wednesday, July 12, 2006 10:58 AM

LAMPYRID


I think the best evidence that River can project her thoughts is in OIS where Kaylee is tied up in the engine room.

River has been speaking to Early and the crew over the intercom, but when she says Kaylee's name, it sounds like she is there with her. Kaylee looks up, says "River?" and River responds "Your afraid", but now its her voice over the intercom.


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Wednesday, July 12, 2006 4:43 PM

ORMAYBEMIDGETS


It does sound like she's in the room with Kaylee, I'll admit that. But I just don't think that's enough to go on. I mean, it could just be that the sound guy (or the effects guy, or the post production guy) screwed up. And you can say that Joss would have noticed that, but maybe not.

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DB: Doesn't exactly fit the thug in the profile alley. Wait, what?

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Wednesday, July 12, 2006 9:09 PM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.


Joss said he wanted it to sound like she was in the room at first; to continue the illusion that she really had melted into the ship. Then he switched to it sounding more like the intercom, maybe as a hint that, yeah, she isn't really the ship.
I think Cavalier's point is very well made. Just wanted to say that.

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Thursday, July 13, 2006 5:43 AM

INDIGOSTARBLASTER


Don't forget that scene in Objects in Space, when River is walking through autumn leaves and picking up a branch. It takes her a moment to realize that she's actually in the ship and she's surrounded by the crew shouting at her and trying to take the gun away. Obviously, she wasn't reading anyone's intentions or thoughts or even hearing their voices for at least a few minutes. So it is possible to sneak up on River, if she's distracted within herself.

Re: not ratting out Jayne -- actually, I don't see why she would. She agrees with Jayne that she's a danger to them, so it's not like she blames him for his attempt to put her on a shuttle, and she has no reason to mention it for any other purpose (and she's not a tattletale by nature, I imagine).

Re: knocking Simon unconscious -- I agree with the posters who said that this was because Simon didn't know at that moment what he was going to do, so she couldn't take the chance. I got the impression, when she stared down at his unconscious body with the gun in her hand, that she was having one of her Objects in Space moments -- seeing Simon as just an object for a moment, maybe seeing the topography of the rumpled clothing as resembling foothills created by tectonic movement (or was that just me?), before she came back to reality and went to the bridge.

There was one line that River speaks to Simon when they're all on the bridge, something about being sorry she had to fire the gun to distract everyone and get them to leave the bridge. I think this is an allusion to Objects in Space, too -- "No guns".

Indigo S.

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Thursday, July 13, 2006 5:46 AM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.


She says "I had to show them." And she didn't fire a gun, Jayne did when she dropped the can on his head.

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Thursday, July 13, 2006 5:52 AM

DESKTOPHIPPIE


Just jumping in to say that we don't always think in words. Most of the times we have a jumble of images and emotions rather than any clear thoughts.

It's clear from Simon's expression in the scene that he was wary of River at the very least. He must have been thinking that he had to keep her calm. That's probably what was going through his head when he said the safe word in the bar to make her sleep. Hence River's immediate reaction.

But yes, I agree that River can hear thoughts as well as feel emotions. She mouths the words "It's crossed my mind" at the same time as Mal, which goes a long way towards proving that, as does the final scene with her and Mal, which has been mentioned above.



Desktop Hippie


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Friday, July 14, 2006 4:37 AM

INDIGOSTARBLASTER


Thanks for the clarification :)

I was watching the BDM (again) with Joss's commentary on (again). I found that I get more each time I listen to the commentary, too.

One line of Joss's that I'd forgotten about but which made me laugh both times, spoken just after Book's death scene (and I'm paraphrasing here) -- "What's interesting is that Mal's reaction to his friend's death is _not_ 'I'm going to get vengeance' or 'I'm going to get justice' or 'I'm going to become a bat' ..."

LOL

Indigo S.

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Friday, July 14, 2006 12:37 PM

RIVERMADNESS


You raise some good points and I agree, a Star Trek or X-men type telepath would be boring. Though River can read minds I amend my previous idea and do not believe she is a true telepath in that sense. I now believe her ability to read minds is keyed to the strength of the emotion behind the thought, the stonger the emotion the is easier it is for her to read. You are right River can read person at a glance the best example of this is her conforntaton with Badger in Shindig. She speaks in general terms but nails him to a tee. " a petty thief with delusions of standing", spent time in jail but not as much as he says " a sad little king on a sad little hill". We know River reacts to strong sudden emotions the best examples are her three dealings with reavers.
1st. In Bushwacked when the survior goes full on reaver, River screams in terror in Inaras shuttle.
2nd. The heist in ther BDM when the reavers hit the strength of thier rage plus the fear of the town people knock her of her feet.
3rd. The final confrontation in the BDM "their all made up reavers I can't shut them out" the reaver's agressive emotion when they are on the hunt hit her like a tidal wave.
I believe the most compelling example the theory happens in the BDM just after she is triggered when she is asleep in the pantry. When Mal's anger and rage flares up at Simon she wake up and is keenly lock on Mal so much so she mouth the same words as Mal. I believe she is conditioned by the Acadamy to respond to specific emotions. The one that resistance fighters might be prone too, like fear and panic or hate and anger. I blieve a lesser example is during the escape from the Acadamy, Simon was holding together while every thing was going as planned but after he set of the bouncing betty he probably started to panic about how he was going to get his comatose sister out and boom there she is wide awake and ready to go. I still believe she can project her thoughts but no more the a word or two since I believe she was created to be more of a receiver than a full fledge telepath. As for the Jayne incident in the BDM, I like to think she whispered something like "DO IT" in the back of his mind but I concede it was most likely the alcohol he was pounding down the was the final push. Finally that is why I believe Joss is a great writer, his work allows people to take different takes on the same event which lead to great discussion's.

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Friday, July 14, 2006 7:54 PM

ROCKETJOCK


Quote:

Originally posted by Smaug:

But at the very end.. Mal says.. "But I suppose you already know what I am going to say."

To which River replys "Yes, but I like to hear you say it".



I think what you're forgetting here is that River has a puckish sense of humor. She's not saying "Yes, I know what you're about to say," she's saying "Yes, I know you suppose I know what you're about to say." She's being playful with someone she has honest affection for.

Seriously, I don't think River's abilities are simply defined, or have clearly-marked limits.

But now that she's made her peace with Miranda, I think it likely her control is going to increase steadily.

"She's tore up plenty. But she'll fly true." -- Zoë Washburn

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Friday, July 14, 2006 8:02 PM

ORMAYBEMIDGETS


Or maybe she only got fragments of what he was going to say. It would have been confused in her head, so she would have wanted to her Mal say it, all coherently.

Or, possibly I'm just trying to make it fit because I like that part so much. :)

-
DB: Doesn't exactly fit the thug in the profile alley. Wait, what?

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Saturday, July 15, 2006 4:23 AM

XEYRA


Well, here's a bit of an example that seems to indicate River as being able to actually read thoughts instead of just being highly intuitive.

She "read" the Parliament men's minds well enough to know Dr. Caron's speech in the transmission by heart, since you can see her mouthing it at the same time as the woman. It seems she mouths through it all in the script, though we only see it briefly in the movie.

There's quite a bit of evidence in both series and movie that don't really work if River was just highly intuitive or empathetic, but there are quite a lot of good theories about this. To me, she is psychic, like Joss says, and that can involve lots of things.

She has instances where she seems to really be able to read someone's thoughts (she does mouth Mal's words in the BDM while she's locked in the pantry) and emotions, instances where she seems to know some things that have happened (like in Bushwacked, she knows the ship has "ghosts" and she wakes up from a nightmare because of the screaming, to which Simon replies there's no screaming and River answers that there was). And then there's her apparent prescience, if you want to assume her mention of fire in Out of Gas did not exactly refer to the candles burning but the explosion that was coming.

According to the R. Tam Sessions, she was already very intuitive, so it didn't take much to turn her into a psychic. By Session 22 she is already "reading" because, since she mentions the PAX, I assume she has already "read" Miranda from their minds, not to mention the reference to the first one dying on the table, from having been cut on too deep.

Can River have some kind of "suggestive" power too? I wouldn't know. What made Jayne go out into the pantry? I tend to believe it was a mix of alcohol and the discussion about the danger River poses and perhaps some noise he heard from within that reminded him she was there, since by the time he got into the pantry she was already free, so he might have heard something. But that's me.

Speculation is good. Once you open parts of your brain to certain abilities, who knows, maybe you can use it in ways never before imagined? With River purged from the memories of Miranda, and looking better by the end of the movie, she might be able to attain some control over her abilities... and, well, maybe they'll keep on growing. We can all speculate and write dozens of stories in your heads, and until Joss proves us wrong, we'll just keep on wondering...

*******************************
Wash: This landing is gonna get pretty interesting.
Mal: Define "interesting".
Wash: [deadpan] Oh God, oh God, we're all going to die?

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Sunday, July 16, 2006 9:20 AM

CAVALIER


I am interested in the idea that “her ability to read minds is keyed to the strength of the emotion behind the thought, the stronger the emotion the is easier it is for her to read.“
The best evidence for River being a telepath, I think, is in the BDM, when we see her mouthing Mals words as he speaks them “the thought crossed my mind”. The important thing is the timing. How the discussion went, Jaynes point about what they might have to do with River, and even Mals response, could all be predicted, at least by River. But to mouth those words, at the exact moment Mal spoke them, is a lot harder to explain. If River is not a telepath, the best explanation is games with time cuts in the editing suite, and I do not like that kind of explanation.
The obvious problem with “telepathic River” has always been the events where she clearly has been surprised e.g. by Dobson in the pilot, the Alliance assault troops at the end of the BDM, and even by Early in OiS (she did not warn Simon before Early boarded Serenity). The strength of emotion idea might provide an explanation.
One problem I can see is that in “War Stories” River had to look round an object to see Niskas troops firing at them. Surely, having been roused with a few minutes notice to fight a pitched battle against an unknown opponent, those men must have been feeling some strong emotions and therefore be readable?

My other reason for believing that River possesses enhanced intuition, rather than some paraphysical sense, is that I think it fits better into the ‘verse. Joss has clearly gone to some trouble to keep the ‘verse free of FTL travel, time travel, mystical anything, aliens, AIs, nanotech, and all the other trimmings that typically show up in space opera. Having gone to all that trouble, I find it hard to believe that he would create one solitary telepathic character, and then put her near the centre of the show.
Improving Rivers intuition would require some form of cognitive enhancement, but we will probably have that long before we fly to another star.

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Monday, July 17, 2006 3:24 AM

XEYRA


Quote:

Originally posted by Cavalier:
I am interested in the idea that “her ability to read minds is keyed to the strength of the emotion behind the thought, the stronger the emotion the is easier it is for her to read.“


This is a good idea. Picking thoughts that are accompanied by strong emotions should be easier for her, because, well, they're probably the loudest, at the forefront of one's mind, the most important and thus the most difficult to hide from. Consider that River's amygdala was stripped, so she really can't NOT feel everything, thus strong emotions and strongly emotional thoughts are probably harder to keep from invading her.

I do think that, with some probing and concentration, she could read more out of someone. Stronger emotions make it easier to read, less stronger emotionally require something more out of her.

Quote:

Originally posted by Cavalier:
The obvious problem with “telepathic River” has always been the events where she clearly has been surprised e.g. by Dobson in the pilot, the Alliance assault troops at the end of the BDM, and even by Early in OiS (she did not warn Simon before Early boarded Serenity). The strength of emotion idea might provide an explanation.


She felt something in the pilot, it seems, because she wakes up moments before he appears. But she's still disturbed and disoriented by then, having come out of cryo, and things are probably very jambled in her mind, so it's natural she was surprised by Dobson.

She wasn't so much surprised by the troops when they broke down the wall, even if she wasn't facing them. You're probably refering to her surprise when she is thrown against the wall in the BDM and a hook or something suddenly bursts through the wall? Well, regard the situation she was in: in the middle of a fight with Reavers who, just moments before, had paralyzed her completely due to their absolute rage. I think she might have been a bit busy trying to stay alive and fight through the Reaver's strong emotions to realize Alliance men were about to send hooks into the wall.

As for Early in OIS, she seems to wake up *because* of him, because we hear his voice and she immediately opens her eyes. It's a common belief that when she was listening in on the crew talk about her (the wonderful scene where she is extraordinarily balanced in the rail), she was also listening to Early. And maybe she didn't tell Simon because she knew this bounty hunter was going to be dangerous? Who knows how River's mind works and what really motivates her? Her not warning anyone of Early is not testament against telepathy but more of River's strange workings.

Quote:

Originally posted by Cavalier:One problem I can see is that in “War Stories” River had to look round an object to see Niskas troops firing at them.

It's possible she can feel these men, but to do the maths maybe she needs the visual clue first? She probably can't see the obstacles in a room that would hide those men only through some mental probing. She'd need to look for a second to make a mental map of the area and then fire. Which she did.

Quote:

Originally posted by Cavalier:
My other reason for believing that River possesses enhanced intuition, rather than some paraphysical sense, is that I think it fits better into the ‘verse. Joss has clearly gone to some trouble to keep the ‘verse free of FTL travel, time travel, mystical anything, aliens, AIs, nanotech, and all the other trimmings that typically show up in space opera. Having gone to all that trouble, I find it hard to believe that he would create one solitary telepathic character, and then put her near the centre of the show.


I understand your reasoning, and if we were going to limit ourselves to the series, it might be a working idea. But the movie (though some people consider it a different animal, it's still Joss's and his view and so it's canon) and even the R. Tam Sessions came to prove that simple intuition doesn't work. It doesn't explain Miranda (and a whole lot of other things).

How can enhanced intuition explain how River knew about Miranda? She just can't look at the parliament men and see the death within it, and the exact words of Dr. Caron in the transmission (which she mouths at the same time as the woman). She had to 'read' it. I do believe that River was already so intuitive before going to the Academy that she was almost psychic (there's reference to this in the R. Tam Sessions) but what she went through there served to modify her brain so she could actually become a full-fledged reader. Mal calls her that, though he also says she can read thoughts or near enough.

But the BDM comes to show that the near enough isn't really enough. She knows about Miranda, she mouths Mal's and Dr. Caron's words, she *feels* the Reavers in the Trading Station even though she's inside and they're away from her (when they get off the Trading Station there's not a Reaver in sight, as you hear Jayne ask if they see them, which leads to the belief the attack we saw was taking place somewhere in the city), etc. Not to mention the Operative clearly says to Dr. Mathias "Key members of Parliament. Key. The minds behind every military, diplomatic and covert operation in the galaxy, and you put them in a room with a psychic", which does make one think that River is carrying dangerous secrets because she picked them out from those key member's of parliament's heads...

Anyways, I do believe River is psychic, which involves both the reading of thoughts and emotions and even some prescience and knowledge of past events, because that's how I've interpreted events from the series, movie and the R. Tam Sessions. That's what I think. Doesn't mean it's shared by all. :)



"People tell you things all the time, without talking. The way they move, the way they aren't talking." - River Tam

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Monday, July 17, 2006 10:43 AM

CAVALIER


I agree that mouthing Mals words as he utters them is the best evidence for telepathy, but I went into that in a previous post, so I won’t waste any more of anyone’s time.

Considering the Miranda recording; it is not clear to me that River being able to predict Dr Carons words in a recording is evidence of telepathy. For one thing, if you know a few words from a sentence you can often then predict the next few. River might then be able to reliably predict Dr Carons next syllable, which would be the only ability she needed to lip-synch with her. Alternatively, if we assume that River must have already been familiar with the recording, it must have been transmitted after it was recorded. A telepath might then read the mind of someone who had seen a copy of it, but River might simply have dug up a copy of that recording. It is possible that this copy is what River was looking for on the Cortex after she escaped from the storage locker. Notice as well that most people would only remember the gist of Dr Carons report – they would not remember the exact words, and so no telepath could read them in their minds.

Much of the rest can be explained by River paying more attention to her existing senses than anyone else, or even by her being the youngest person in the room with the best hearing.

There is of course, the incident with the key Parliamentarians. I am inclined to turn this argument around, and say that it is evidence that River is not a telepath. If she was known to be a telepath, then having her encounter people with sensitive information in their heads would be an obvious security risk, even to a non-professional like Dr Mathias, or the MPs bodyguards. Dr Mathias, above all people, should surely know what River is capable of.
If River is “just” deeply intuitive, such a meeting might not seem dangerous. The Operative, however, might well think such a meeting dangerous. Even small pieces of information can have great value. All it takes is for someone important to suppress a reaction when Pax is mentioned, and you know what to look for.
But from the Operatives point of view, individual secrets may be less important than an understanding of “The minds behind every military, diplomatic and covert operation in the galaxy“. A telepath could only tell you what the key minds intended to do, not what they would do if XYZ happened. A telepath could not tell you what you needed to do or say in order to have them obey your will – in the same way that River knew what to say to have Jubal Early (and the rest of the crew) obey her will in OiS.

So far as the Alliance assault squad is concerned:


Quote:

Originally posted by Xeyra:


She wasn't so much surprised by the troops when they broke down the wall, even if she wasn't facing them.


She was clearly visible, alone and armed – but not with a weapon of any use beyond arms reach. Either she was surprised, or she was stupid. If she was expecting them she should have been hiding behind the wall to ambush the troops as they entered the room, or at least have dropped to the floor and hidden among the bodies. Instead, she was posing. (Very unRiverine I should think, although it must be an image that launched a thousand screensavers. )

Quote:

Originally posted by Xeyra:
That's what I think. Doesn't mean it's shared by all. :)



Now there is a quote that clearly describes me

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Monday, July 17, 2006 12:49 PM

XEYRA


Quote:

Originally posted by Cavalier:
Considering the Miranda recording; it is not clear to me that River being able to predict Dr Carons words in a recording is evidence of telepathy. For one thing, if you know a few words from a sentence you can often then predict the next few. River might then be able to reliably predict Dr Carons next syllable, which would be the only ability she needed to lip-synch with her.


You make a good point. I have a friend who tends to mouth as we speak, sometimes, though not with so much accuracy as River. Still, I do believe River does that because she already knows the message and what the doctor is saying because of having read the secret from the parliament men's minds. Read the message. Known about Miranda and seen the bodies and known about Reavers, even if the knowledge was buried within her (burning up her brain) because she saw it in the parliament's men's minds. That's how I interpret it. That's how I see and explain this.

Quote:

Originally posted by Cavalier:
It is possible that this copy is what River was looking for on the Cortex after she escaped from the storage locker.


Actually, it seems to be clear enough that she was looking for the location of Miranda in that scene. Even Mr. Universe, the hacker supreme, didn't seem to even know about Miranda, so I doubt such a transmission was hanging around in the cortex to find. Not to mention River wouldn't really have had time to do such a thourough search of the cortex for a message, hear it, and then search for Miranda's location. But it's an interesting theory, nonetheless.

Quote:

Originally posted by Cavalier:
Notice as well that most people would only remember the gist of Dr Carons report – they would not remember the exact words, and so no telepath could read them in their minds.


I guess this would depend on the members of parliament. Maybe they had good memories or maybe they saw the transmission so many times they could recall it by heart, like we usually do with a poem we love or with a letter that has touched us deeply, whether positively or negatively. You don't have to have a photographic memory to remember something so clearly (my mother, for example, still remembers quite a lot of meaningless things she learned in school, like names of train stations and such, and can quote quite a few things by heart, word for word).

Something like Miranda is not something you forget easily, not when you're responsible for the death of 30 million people. Even ambitious and power-hungry old men blink when they exterminate a world... Besides, our memories aren't usually lost, they're just put into storage, buried under new information, but even if twelve years have passed, they would remain in there, somewhere, and River saw them.

Quote:

Originally posted by Cavalier:
There is of course, the incident with the key Parliamentarians. I am inclined to turn this argument around, and say that it is evidence that River is not a telepath. If she was known to be a telepath, then having her encounter people with sensitive information in their heads would be an obvious security risk, even to a non-professional like Dr Mathias, or the MPs bodyguards. Dr Mathias, above all people, should surely know what River is capable of.


I think this speaks more about Dr. Mathias pride than anything else. You have to consider that Mathias is a scientist who seems to think River is his "star pupil", a prodigy, which is why she seems to have been shown to the Parliament men ("show me off like a dog").

What does this mean? Well, Mathias's greatest sin is pride, says the Operative. A scientist with a pet project that he headed and was so ingrossed in he didn't think of how wrong it was (he doesn't really seem to care when he describes what's being done to River when he's talking to Simon).

Would a man like this really stop to think that putting a member of his project, especially one as gifted as River, was going to be dangerous to the men who were funding his little experience? Maybe it's the crazy scientist stereotype, but Mathias really doesn't seem to think about that possibility (until the Operative points it out to him and he gulps and tells that even if she gleaned something, it's buried under the layers of psychosis).

So, yes, I do believe Mathias wouldn't think about the danger of parading a psychic in front of the minds behind every military, diplomatic and covert operation in the galaxy. Not because he didn't think River was not going to be capable of it, because she couldn't read minds in the true sense of the word, but simply because showing off his prize student was the most important thing to him.

Quote:

Originally posted by Cavalier:
All it takes is for someone important to suppress a reaction when Pax is mentioned, and you know what to look for.


You make a valid point but this is not a believable situation, I think, when only the parliament men are supposed to know this (since everyone else must have died in Miranda or turned into a Reaver). They really wouldn't comment on the PAX in front of River and Dr. Mathias, no reason for it. Classified information isn't discussed with subalterns...

Quote:

Originally posted by Cavalier:
A telepath could only tell you what the key minds intended to do, not what they would do if XYZ happened. A telepath could not tell you what you needed to do or say in order to have them obey your will – in the same way that River knew what to say to have Jubal Early (and the rest of the crew) obey her will in OiS.


But now you're compartimentalizing the two. River is already highly intuitive. It's mentioned by Simon and in the R. Tam Session 1. You don't need to have one without the other, though. River can be a reader in the true sense of the word and still know/guess intuitively what someone might do with the knowledge she gleaned from them.

She's a psychic (Joss himself said so) but that does not need to involve only telepathy or high intuition. They're not mutually exclusive. So she can very well "tell you what the key minds intended to do" and extrapolate on "what they would do if XYZ happened". Which she does. That's why she's so dangerous.

Quote:

Originally posted by Cavalier:
Now there is a quote that clearly describes me


Which is good. If we all believed the same things and agreed to everything, the world would be a boring place.

I think it's incredible the way Joss leaves things open enough for us to extrapolate and interpret them in our own ways, which leads to many different beliefs. Everyone has an explanation for something, and they can often differ. Doesn't make them less real to them.

And until Joss comes out and says "River Tam can/cannot read thoughts", we're free to make our own minds about things. And even if he comes out and 'kills' one of our pet beliefs, well, that may not keep people from believing. Human beings are, by nature, very stubborn. Like believing Wash is still alive and coming up with amazingly complex theories that prove it...



"People tell you things all the time, without talking. The way they move, the way they aren't talking." - River Tam

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Tuesday, July 18, 2006 6:19 AM

ORMAYBEMIDGETS


Quote:

Instead, she was posing. (Very unRiverine I should think, although it must be an image that launched a thousand screensavers.)

In her pose, I think she's looking to the others for approval. Obviously she won, and she knows it's what the crew wanted, and that she was fighting for their lives; but I think that when she had to look around and see all those bodies that she had killed, she became less sure. Notice that she doesn't raise her head in a "look what I did" way. She keeps her head down and looks at them almost through her hair, as someone would do when they're ashamed.

But that very part-when the blast doors open and River's posing there-has got to be the one that makes the least sense. As you mentioned, if River knew the Alliance were coming, she shouldn't be standing in the middle of the room with her back to them. And also, of course, Kaylee was supposed to rig the doors so that they couldn't open. And even if she didn't do that, there's no one to open the doors. However, I'm completely willing to accept that it was done for the imagery and not for sense-making, because that scene is so good.

Also-just noticed it. When the Alliance breaks the wall down, River just kind of puts her head down, real slowly. Like "here we go again". I'm guessing it's because she just went through so much: strong emotions from the Reavers, having to kill, the physical exertion of a fight; and now she's going to have to do it again. But she doesn't even hesitate, and I love that part. The camera zooms in, and she gets a better grip on her weapons, and you know she's ready. It's not the old River anymore. She wasn't triggered by a Fruity Oaty Bar. She's going to fight to protect the crew, her family, because she can. She can finally use what's been hurting them for so long to help them, to save them.

-
DB: Doesn't exactly fit the thug in the profile alley. Wait, what?

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Wednesday, July 26, 2006 8:49 AM

CAVALIER


I could quibble about a couple of minor points but... it would be pedantry.

Quote:

Originally posted by Xeyra:

And until Joss comes out and says "River Tam can/cannot read thoughts", we're free to make our own minds about things.




I agree that there is no smoking gun: we cannot definitively say “River is/is not a telepath. (I cannot even imagine how any single incident could prove that River is NOT a telepath.) So for the moment all I can say is:

If River was a person in the real world, I would not conclude she is a telepath, because I do not actually need to conclude that she is, and there is a distinct shortage of telepaths, pre-cogs etc in the world.

If I was a person in the ‘verse, I would not conclude River is a telepath, because I do not actually need to conclude that she is, and there is a distinct shortage of telepaths, pre-cogs etc in the ‘verse.

After all, River is a product of an Alliance lab, not “an ancient mystical religion”, like a Jedi.

And I prefer it that way: SF/ fantasy has far too many mystics and “perfect soldiers” who are just stronger/ tougher/ dumber than average. I like the idea that what is really important is a better understanding of your people, and of your adversary.

So in part, I believe as I do because I want to…

In the meantime, before we get The Proof, all we can do is look for patterns, that can give us an idea of what Rivers limits are, and therefore how she works. Hmm...I may post on that later. Any ideas?

One last admission:

I said above that:
Quote:

Originally posted by Cavalier:


The best evidence for River being a telepath, I think, is in the BDM, when we see her mouthing Mals words as he speaks them “the thought crossed my mind”. The important thing is the timing. How the discussion went, Jaynes point about what they might have to do with River, and even Mals response, could all be predicted, at least by River. But to mouth those words, at the exact moment Mal spoke them, is a lot harder to explain. If River is not a telepath, the best explanation is games with time cuts in the editing suite, and I do not like that kind of explanation.





I was wrong. That discussion was in the dining area. And River was in a locker in that room. When the door was closed on her, it was still possible to hear Simon talking through it. So River could have kept track of the conversation the normal way. Aaaargh...

BTW - I like your sig. Its the ability of pre-Academy River that I most envy.

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Wednesday, July 26, 2006 9:08 AM

CAVALIER


Quote:

Originally posted by Smaug:
This is a question about River's abilities at a specific time in the movie.

she does her ninja/assasin thing and makes her way to the bridge. In the process of doing that.. she takes down Simon.. and the shot of her looking down upon him with the gun.

I realize Joss did that to keep us on the edge.. and guessing what the )(#*$)#($* is River doing.. and what is she capable of. Once we find out what she is doing.. my first thought is that she had to take out Simon because she read him at the time that even he would have tried to subdue her. However.. they have a brief conversation and River says that she had to show them.. and Simon says something like.. "you could have just asked"... while nursing his soar throat. To which River replies "I didn't know if you were going to put me to sleep". Or something to that effect.. I may not have the exact wording right.

Anyway... but that is the question.. How could River have NOT known what Simon was thinking? Wouldn't she have known weither or not he would have tried to subdue her and put her to sleep?
Smaug..




The way I read the movie, Jayne, Simon etc approached the kitchen/ dining area from the stern. When Mal realised that River had taken control of that area and it would be impossible/ very dangerous to enter it, most of the crew followed a side route to the bridge.

Simon remained, River opened the door, took him out, and then headed back to the bridge. She got there before the crew, and without encountering any of them, so she must have gone back through the kitchen…

The point is: Simon was not in her way, and she did not need to go anywhere near him. She must have deliberately remained to ambush him, the only person on the ship who could stop her.

So probably when she said “I didn’t know if you were going to make me sleep”, she did not mean “I didn’t know if you were going to make me sleep at that moment”, she meant “I didn’t know if you were going to make me sleep before I completed everything I needed to do”.

Simon could not have known what he would think it necessary to do in the next half-hour or so, so no amount of mindreading could have told River what he would do.

Aside from that: River has always spoken most eloquently when she is lying.

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Saturday, July 29, 2006 1:54 AM

ASARIAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Xeyra:

Quote:

Originally posted by Cavalier:
Considering the Miranda recording; it is not clear to me that River being able to predict Dr Carons words in a recording is evidence of telepathy. For one thing, if you know a few words from a sentence you can often then predict the next few. River might then be able to reliably predict Dr Carons next syllable, which would be the only ability she needed to lip-synch with her.


You make a good point. I have a friend who tends to mouth as we speak, sometimes, though not with so much accuracy as River. Still, I do believe River does that because she already knows the message and what the doctor is saying because of having read the secret from the parliament men's minds. Read the message. Known about Miranda and seen the bodies and known about Reavers, even if the knowledge was buried within her (burning up her brain) because she saw it in the parliament's men's minds. That's how I interpret it. That's how I see and explain this.

Quote:

Originally posted by Cavalier:
It is possible that this copy is what River was looking for on the Cortex after she escaped from the storage locker.


Actually, it seems to be clear enough that she was looking for the location of Miranda in that scene. Even Mr. Universe, the hacker supreme, didn't seem to even know about Miranda, so I doubt such a transmission was hanging around in the cortex to find. Not to mention River wouldn't really have had time to do such a thourough search of the cortex for a message, hear it, and then search for Miranda's location. But it's an interesting theory, nonetheless.

Quote:

Originally posted by Cavalier:
Notice as well that most people would only remember the gist of Dr Carons report – they would not remember the exact words, and so no telepath could read them in their minds.


I guess this would depend on the members of parliament. Maybe they had good memories or maybe they saw the transmission so many times they could recall it by heart, like we usually do with a poem we love or with a letter that has touched us deeply, whether positively or negatively. You don't have to have a photographic memory to remember something so clearly (my mother, for example, still remembers quite a lot of meaningless things she learned in school, like names of train stations and such, and can quote quite a few things by heart, word for word).

Something like Miranda is not something you forget easily, not when you're responsible for the death of 30 million people. Even ambitious and power-hungry old men blink when they exterminate a world... Besides, our memories aren't usually lost, they're just put into storage, buried under new information, but even if twelve years have passed, they would remain in there, somewhere, and River saw them.

Quote:

Originally posted by Cavalier:
There is of course, the incident with the key Parliamentarians. I am inclined to turn this argument around, and say that it is evidence that River is not a telepath. If she was known to be a telepath, then having her encounter people with sensitive information in their heads would be an obvious security risk, even to a non-professional like Dr Mathias, or the MPs bodyguards. Dr Mathias, above all people, should surely know what River is capable of.


I think this speaks more about Dr. Mathias pride than anything else. You have to consider that Mathias is a scientist who seems to think River is his "star pupil", a prodigy, which is why she seems to have been shown to the Parliament men ("show me off like a dog").

What does this mean? Well, Mathias's greatest sin is pride, says the Operative. A scientist with a pet project that he headed and was so ingrossed in he didn't think of how wrong it was (he doesn't really seem to care when he describes what's being done to River when he's talking to Simon).

Would a man like this really stop to think that putting a member of his project, especially one as gifted as River, was going to be dangerous to the men who were funding his little experience? Maybe it's the crazy scientist stereotype, but Mathias really doesn't seem to think about that possibility (until the Operative points it out to him and he gulps and tells that even if she gleaned something, it's buried under the layers of psychosis).

So, yes, I do believe Mathias wouldn't think about the danger of parading a psychic in front of the minds behind every military, diplomatic and covert operation in the galaxy. Not because he didn't think River was not going to be capable of it, because she couldn't read minds in the true sense of the word, but simply because showing off his prize student was the most important thing to him.

Quote:

Originally posted by Cavalier:
All it takes is for someone important to suppress a reaction when Pax is mentioned, and you know what to look for.


You make a valid point but this is not a believable situation, I think, when only the parliament men are supposed to know this (since everyone else must have died in Miranda or turned into a Reaver). They really wouldn't comment on the PAX in front of River and Dr. Mathias, no reason for it. Classified information isn't discussed with subalterns...

Quote:

Originally posted by Cavalier:
A telepath could only tell you what the key minds intended to do, not what they would do if XYZ happened. A telepath could not tell you what you needed to do or say in order to have them obey your will – in the same way that River knew what to say to have Jubal Early (and the rest of the crew) obey her will in OiS.


But now you're compartimentalizing the two. River is already highly intuitive. It's mentioned by Simon and in the R. Tam Session 1. You don't need to have one without the other, though. River can be a reader in the true sense of the word and still know/guess intuitively what someone might do with the knowledge she gleaned from them.

She's a psychic (Joss himself said so) but that does not need to involve only telepathy or high intuition. They're not mutually exclusive. So she can very well "tell you what the key minds intended to do" and extrapolate on "what they would do if XYZ happened". Which she does. That's why she's so dangerous.

Quote:

Originally posted by Cavalier:
Now there is a quote that clearly describes me


Which is good. If we all believed the same things and agreed to everything, the world would be a boring place.

I think it's incredible the way Joss leaves things open enough for us to extrapolate and interpret them in our own ways, which leads to many different beliefs. Everyone has an explanation for something, and they can often differ. Doesn't make them less real to them.

And until Joss comes out and says "River Tam can/cannot read thoughts", we're free to make our own minds about things. And even if he comes out and 'kills' one of our pet beliefs, well, that may not keep people from believing. Human beings are, by nature, very stubborn. Like believing Wash is still alive and coming up with amazingly complex theories that prove it...



This was a brilliant analysis. You're quite the gifted person.

P.S. Is it bad that what you said made perfect sense to me?


--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Saturday, July 29, 2006 2:05 AM

JAMAICANBATMAN


what if simon himself didnt really know what he was going to do, i mean river can read minds not the future, so if simon has a conflict within himself, how would river be able to tell which choice he would make.

this probably wont make sense to a lot of you but who cares, it makes sense to me.

Wash: "Psychic though? That sound too much like science-fiction!"
Zoe: "You live in a spaceship, dear."

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