GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

How Do You handle Death?

POSTED BY: RIVER6213
UPDATED: Sunday, January 18, 2009 09:09
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Sunday, June 11, 2006 2:18 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC


Quote:

Originally posted by copilot:
So that is how I feel about death. But some days my christian upbring rears it ugly head and I worry that they're right and I'm a sinner and shall burn for all eternity.


Of the six early Christian belief systems three said that everyone made it into heaven in the end (Pope John Paul II seemed to support this, which is odd for a Catholic) two said that the evil ones were wiped out of existence, and only one said that damnation was eternal.

If memory serves that is.

For the Christian in you let me quote your holy book:
"God will have all to be saved."
God has a tendency to get what he wants. His will be done. But for those who didn't catch that bit it is more explicit elsewhere.

"In Adam all condemned, in Christ all live."
"In Adam all die, in Christ all live."
Interesting that, all who are condemned and die shall live through Christ, if someone somehow managed not to be condemned through Adam, perhaps if they were an aardvark, then they might not live through Christ, but the religion is very specific about the fate of humans.

Certainly more than two quotes worth, but now is not the time for too much.

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Sunday, June 11, 2006 4:28 PM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:


Well, my question to you now though is, do you not think your past feelings/outlook on life/death could return or perhaps be more evenly balanced. Y'know less of two extremes?

I only ask because your present time, as with your past time, is but a moment, a fraction of life, therefore do you not think that drawing a conclusion on life perceiveing it merely from the 'moment' point of view as somewhat limiting?

I mean I've had my moments where I've wanted nothing to do with anyone! (except my Dog he's the best) and it's left me thinking to hell with 'em all.

But and this thread kinda proves it - I always end up caring.

The
Somnambulist




The answer to your question is no. I don't believe it’s possible for my past feelings/outlook on life/death could return or perhaps be more evenly balanced.

It's also very easy to see how a person like me is going to end up. You take what you see now and extrapolate. A blind person can see it.

The safest thing for me to do is keep myself safe and try to limit my exposure to other people. Don't make any close friends and stay the hell out of committed relationships. Avoid human contact at all costs, and keep everything superficial. I think if I do this everything should be okay.

Hanging around those weird Christians a few months ago really made me want to lock myself away as fast as possible. They were a shock, but they were nice, and they really wanted to be friends. I had to get away from them. Friends have expectations of you. I don't want anyone in my personal life to have any expectations of me, and I don't want to have expectations of them.

I'm 44 years of age. I've lived long enough to see how the game of life is played and my role in it. As far as I'm concerned, the game isn’t worth playing because the rules are too weird, and I'm tired of all of it anyway. I can't commit suicide because I tried that already and I have a stiff shoulder that's healing pretty well along with some pain as a reminder that I'm an idiot.

So the next thing for me to do besides self-termination is isolation. I've got maybe another good 20 years left so I think I can hide out for that whole time. It’s not like I left anyone around who would miss me. I made certain that there wouldn’t be any people who missed me.

I am proud of the apathy that I have regarding other people's death. To not need people is a freedom that a lot of folks really don't know about. It’s like being unchained.

Oh well, I'm rambling.

River

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Sunday, June 11, 2006 4:46 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC


Ok, I have a question which, unlike the "pyche 101" other people were doing, is off topic.

You don't care about us because, well, we're people, and you don't care about people. If we all died horrible painful deaths you wouldn't even shed a tear, at least that's the impression I get from your posts, so if we have so little of an impact on you, if we matter so little, why bother talking to us?

You wouldn't miss us were we gone, so what possible purpose is there for being here to begin with? That which won't be missed can hardly be something gratifying. I mean if you don't feel worse without something by defintion of the word, "worse," you do not feel better with it.

You serve yourself, you said so, how can interacting with people you wouldn't lament the absence of possibly be serving yourself?

Why not go out and find something you care about, something you enjoy? Something where you actually feel better when you have it than when you don't.

-

I'm not saying I want you gone, I'd miss you were you gone, but this is a forum, and all you can do here is interact with the people you couldn't care less about. Why not enjoy yourself?

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Sunday, June 11, 2006 4:52 PM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by christhecynic:
Ok, I have a question which, unlike the "pyche 101" other people were doing, is off topic.

You don't care about us because, well, we're people, and you don't care about people. If we all died horrible painful deaths you wouldn't even shed a tear, at least that's the impression I get from your posts, so if we have so little of an impact on you, if we matter so little, why bother talking to us?

You wouldn't miss us were we gone, so what possible purpose is there for being here to begin with? That which won't be missed can hardly be something gratifying. I mean if you don't feel worse without something by defintion of the word, "worse," you do not feel better with it.

You serve yourself, you said so, how can interacting with people you wouldn't lament the absence of possibly be serving yourself?

Why not go out and find something you care about, something you enjoy? Something where you actually feel better when you have it than when you don't.

-

I'm not saying I want you gone, I'd miss you were you gone, but this is a forum, and all you can do here is interact with the people you couldn't care less about. Why not enjoy yourself?




I don't even know how to answer your question.

River

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Sunday, June 11, 2006 4:53 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC


Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
I don't even know how to answer your question.


Fair enough.

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Sunday, June 11, 2006 4:57 PM

FUTUREMRSFILLION


Quote:


I guess i really don't care about humans. The human race can kiss my ass.

River



River - I won't kiss your ass but I WILL give you a hug!




I myself cry at McDonald's commercials. I can handle death. I don't fall apart in emergencies, and I don't act a fool. But death affects me for a long time. My grandma died in March - still not dealt with it really.


I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"


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Sunday, June 11, 2006 5:16 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC


Quote:

Originally posted by FutureMrsFIllion:
But death affects me for a long time. My grandma died in March - still not dealt with it really.


My grandmother died the semester before this past one, but it didn't really hit me until the one that just ended. My worst semester, I just couldn't stop thinking about the results.

I find that I'm not as sad that she's gone as what I see happening as a result, the farm will be sold and ripped up, her house will probably be torn down, all that she physically left behind will be gone, it'll be like she never existed except for a marker in a cemetery.

She had a good life and if she was right she’s still having one, back with her husband, so I don't really feel bad that she died, though I do miss her, but the idea of the place they lived, the farm he worked, the strawberry fields I grew up in and have always thought of as an extension of my grandparents, and all else they left behind being destroyed. That makes me want to cry.

Death is just another part of life, in fact it's the defining part, something is only alive if it can die, we all move toward it, but we leave marks, those should stay and be remembered long after people forgot who made them, not be blown away like footprints in the sand.

That land, that house my grandfather built and both of them loved, those were marks that should have lasted, but they wont.

-

So I guess that's how I handle death, I'm more concerned with preserving what someone left behind than understanding where, if anywhere, they went. I'm more afraid of losing what I remember them by than ... well something or other.

-

Selfish I suppose.

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Sunday, June 11, 2006 7:34 PM

CHRISMOORHEAD


I cannot recall the first ten years of my life, suffice to say, it's been assumed and reported to me that some run of the mill tragedy is probably the cause. There were probably lessons taught that I had to relearn in that time span, and if I have any prior encounter with death, it's not one that I can conjure very clearly. Everyone experiences it young to a degree, loss of friends, grandparents, etc. I know that a childhood friend with cancer died while convulsing in bed, falling out, and breaking his neck. But I didn't see it. I know I attended several funerals when I was young, but of people that I didn't know. Dead bodies are just life size dolls to someone who doesn't understand.

My first recollection of death is one many children experience much younger. It was with a small creature; a hampster. He was mine, and I was 13. At the age of 13, I still didn't have a grasp on what death was. But I liked pro-wrestling, so it didn't strike me as odd to power bomb my hampster onto my bed. Having done it so many times without killing him, I moved on to the hard wood floor. He landed, and instead of rolling back onto his feet, his head remained leaned back and his chest began heaving. I was so scared, I picked his limp body up and put him back in his cage. I watched him lie there in the corner, struggling to breath, the life slowly fading from him. Then he stopped. I cried very hard that night because I was afraid. All these stories of God and morality when I was growing, and now I had taken the life of a living creature, so small and innocent, it's care and protection having been entrusted to me by my parents. Like any and all tragedies, I got over the immediacy of the feeling, but I'm very sure that the meaning of it all was absorbed as a first and permanent idea of life and death.

Throughout middle school, I was picked on and chastised. But as my love for pro-wrestling grew, so did I find that I had a unique indifference to pain. Eventually I began head butting walls and lockers, jumping off of balconies, letting people hit me and slam me to the ground. In all of the confusion, I made what I believe is a common mistake; I mistook pain for death. It made sense in a rudimentary way. Death is an ultimate outcome of pain. Bleeding out, burning, drowning, heart attack, even dying in your sleep is accompanied by several months or years of pain leading up to it. So now, naturally, I have a tough guy image, not afraid of pain and therefore not afraid of death... or at least, not my primitive understanding of it. I wear my scars on my sleeve, or actually, my arm. Self mutilation isn't beyond me, because the scars are further proof that I'm tough and brave. You might call it insane, but imagine my surprise many years latter when I find similar cultural beliefs in the German Schmiss and the Japanese practice of Matanuki.

Of course, no wannabe bad ass is complete without his defining moment as a pathetic wimp. Mine came in 10th grade when I was arrested for assault and possession of a weapon on school grounds. I was taken into handcuffs and spent the night in a holding cell. Again, I cried, because now I knew the difference. I found out that night that indifference to pain was not the same as indifference to death, and I found out that there were many worse things in the world than either pain or death.

When things were settled, and I was attending a new private school for trouble makers, pro-wrestling just wasn't doing it anymore. I had once sawed my arm down to the bone just to scare a girl into not talking to me, but that was small beans to what I was into now. I needed something deeper and more stable than a soap opera. Although I had been routinely practicing martial arts from the age of 10, I was never very serious about it, but now it became an invaluable outlet. Martial arts led to Japanese history, and eventually a synthesis of the two lead me to the Hagakure, "Hidden by Leaves" by Yamamoto Tsunetomo. In it, Tsunetomo identified death as the most sincere act that one could commit for his Lord. Indifference to pain was part of "the code" as well, but identifiably separate from death. Tsunetomo urged within the first few paragraphs for those following Bushido to "meditate daily on death.", to imagine themselves being ripped apart by arrows, rifles, spears and swords, being cast into the midst’s of a great fire, being swept away by surging waves... and to everyday, without fail, consider himself as dead.

Deep.

Many Japanese writings followed, Heiho Kadensho by Yagyu Munenori, Go Rin No Sho by Miyamoto Musashi, The Unfettered Mind by Takuan Soho, and eventually earlier Chinese writings like the Tao Teh Ching and the I Ching. I never did lose a love for the very anecdotal format of Hagakure, though. All in all, it lead to a greater interest in martial arts, military history, and finally, the military itself. I enlisted out of high school.

Throughout all my training, I never abandon my pre-existing principals. It's all very romantic and whimsical to me; giving life and limb for country, serving as a soldier, and trying every day to improve myself, to become more than a soldier. A Warrior.

Three years later, I'm face up in a BAS below the equator. I got two rounds in me, and I can barely recall what the hell happened. When I was shot, there was no thought of life or death, it was too surreal. There was no sound and I couldn't breath, only see the blood on my hands. Save for the blood, it was a lot like shell shock, so maybe the familiar feeling was why my body didn't start panicking.

The Army should have been the most defining collective of incidents forming my opinion and feelings on death. Instead, it's just a long string of imagines that I remain totally apathetic to when I'm awake. When I'm asleep, it's a different story.

Now I'm a discharged vet with no prospects in life. I've been homeless and starving at different points since I got my 214, and the only thing I can say about death is that it's stayed both close and far away enough to fuck my life up. The only thing worse than being on either side of it is being right in the fucking middle.

-----------------------------------------------
They say I am a sinner and seducer, they try to put the blame on me, but I don't give a fuck for the way they see

Stand up and you'll win, surrender and you'll lose, it's heads or tails, you have to choose.

Heads or tails, which way will you choose? Die or live, surrender or fight? Wild and free, together we'll stand, strong and proud, we will claim our right.

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Sunday, June 11, 2006 8:00 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by ChrisMoorhead:
I watched him lie there in the corner, struggling to breath, the life slowly fading from him. Then he stopped. I cried very hard that night because I was afraid. All these stories of God and morality when I was growing, and now I had taken the life of a living creature, so small and innocent, it's care and protection having been entrusted to me

You failed that creature like someone failed you, you are that hampster, emotionally (Please excuse the simplistic yet often true psych 101). Forgive yourself as you would forgive those who failed you, as you would forgive another child who killed his hampster by a mistake in his under-developed judgement. We, our parents, and our grand-parents are human, and subject to flaws and pressures. However, we, at the more recent end, can more easily benefit from hindsight, and evolve emotionally.

Now take two asprin, and reply in the mourning.

Doctor Chrisisall

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Sunday, June 11, 2006 10:55 PM

THESOMNAMBULIST


Originally posted by RiveR6213:

Quote:

The answer to your question is no. I don't believe it’s possible for my past feelings/outlook on life/death could return or perhaps be more evenly balanced.


OK I understand that... I think it can but I could be wrong.

Quote:

It's also very easy to see how a person like me is going to end up. You take what you see now and extrapolate. A blind person can see it.


I don't think such things are so cut and dry River

- but assuming they are fair enough. I guess there is nothing wrong in seeing where you're going.

Quote:

The safest thing for me to do is keep myself safe and try to limit my exposure to other people. Don't make any close friends and stay the hell out of committed relationships. Avoid human contact at all costs, and keep everything superficial. I think if I do this everything should be okay.


With this I agree - it probably is the safest thing to do. In my past, I would have agreed with you whole-heartedly too.

Quote:

Hanging around those weird Christians a few months ago really made me want to lock myself away as fast as possible. They were a shock, but they were nice, and they really wanted to be friends. I had to get away from them. Friends have expectations of you. I don't want anyone in my personal life to have any expectations of me, and I don't want to have expectations of them.


Actually River here is where I disagree with you more than at any other time. Personally real friends shouldn't have expectations of you. That's kind of the point of really good friends, they take you for what you are. I will openly admit here that I am extremely lucky with a couple of my best friends - I have two in particular who are like this. They take me just as the: awkward, opinionated stubborn, short, curly, haired bugger that I am, and I ,in turn, take them for what they are: faults aplenty!


Quote:

I'm 44 years of age. I've lived long enough to see how the game of life is played and my role in it. As far as I'm concerned, the game isn’t worth playing because the rules are too weird, and I'm tired of all of it anyway. I can't commit suicide because I tried that already and I have a stiff shoulder that's healing pretty well along with some pain as a reminder that I'm an idiot.


Y'know when I was 14 I had life figured. When I was 21 I had re-evaulated it and summised it was Since then and I'm now 35, I've jumped from great to bad so many times I've lost count. Thing is I know when I'm 55 I'll have summised life in an altogether different way... And so it goes on.

(On a slightly side note, and I'm sorry about this, but have you considered living in a different country/society? I only ask because I found sense of a sort in the Caribbean. I know that sounds like some kind of idealistic pipedream. But a stint around different people and culture often does the trick. Or at least it did for me.)

Quote:

So the next thing for me to do besides self-termination is isolation. I've got maybe another good 20 years left so I think I can hide out for that whole time. It’s not like I left anyone around who would miss me. I made certain that there wouldn’t be any people who missed me.


:(

Quote:

I am proud of the apathy that I have regarding other people's death. To not need people is a freedom that a lot of folks really don't know about. It’s like being unchained.


I understand this 100% I'm a big fan of isolation. I occasionally do this, but with no long term commitment of course. And that's maybe how it works for me, as an occasional panacea.

Quote:

Oh well, I'm rambling.


No problem... I like discussing such things.

Ric

www.cirqus.com

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Monday, June 12, 2006 4:31 AM

RIVER6213


TheSomnambulist,

You certainly point for pointed my last post. I really don't know what to say seeing I just woke up.

I guess the only thing I can say for now is this regarding living in another country or travelling around. No matter where I go, I take myself with me. So going somewhere really means nothing. I best stay where I'm at.

I honestly didn't want this thread being about me, but it looks like it ended up that way. Just wanted to know how people handled death. Now I need to go find some coffee and get used to gravity pulling at me....the benefits of age.

River

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Monday, June 12, 2006 4:41 AM

MICK91


I like to think that grow old and die within a certain time period so that we would try to appreciate every day that we are alive. Besides, who knows if we don't just move on to a whole different level of existence...

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Monday, June 12, 2006 5:45 AM

MICJWELCH


Sorry if I haven't read all of the responses to this, but I haven't been on the site much lately.

I don't see death the same way most people do, because I believe we existed before we were born, and we will continue to exist after we die. I don't fear my own death.

I do fear the death of others though. I didn't take my grandfather's death as hard as the rest of my family, but it was hard. I miss him. That's the problem. I won't see him again until I die. And once that happens, I doubt it will seem like much time has passed. But until then, it is a long time.

I am very close to my family, especially my wife and my kids. Even though I know I would see them again, I would grieve for them. It's natural to feel pain. It's natural to die too, though.

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Monday, June 12, 2006 5:46 AM

JIGMAN


Please forgive me if my thoughts sound naive, as I am nigh but an untstable college sophmore. However, I have dealt with death on a few occasions. My father was killed in a car wreck recently, my grandparents were killed off by various maladies over the years, and my best friend (the kind with no expectations) is dying of a slow-killing medical disorder. This is just to inform of of my past experiences with death.

I do not believe in grieving for the dead. When death comes into my life, I rejoice. I rejoice in the memories of those that I have lost. I think of my fortune tho have known these mighty people that have enriched my somewhat meager existence by having known them. I have a slightly morbid outlook on life in that I acknowledge the absolute that I will die, and in a long enough timespan, the world will be as though I have never existed. But I consider this not to be depressing. On the contrary it drives me to push a little harder, to earn my right to say I am alive and have been in the company of those who truly lived. When I am dead, I hope people will remember me as a man who fought the good fight, never gave in and took a cowards path. I consider that the more I earn my existence each day, that will be just a little bit longer that those who survive me will remember me just a little bit longer for it.

As such, I do not believe in greiving over a person's death. The person is dead and that means thier problems here are over. They lost the fight, as we all will someday. I am still here, still fighting, and instead of greiving a person's death, I revel in thier life. I believe that there is something after death, and that is all I need to know about it. The afterlife does not concern me, after all, I going to find out no matter what eventually, so I would rather concern myself with the sensations of this rather fleeting existence. And when I think of those not here anymore, I breathe deep in thier memories, and feel all the better that I knew people when they were alive.

I suppose it was having this philosophy on life that drew me to Firefly in the first place. Fight the good fight, even if it is inevitable that you lose.

-------------------------------------------------
All good things must come to an end.

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Monday, June 12, 2006 5:59 AM

FUTUREMRSFILLION


Quote:

I've been homeless and starving at different points since I got my 214, and the only thing I can say about death is that it's stayed both close and far away enough to fuck my life up.


Chris

Have you been able to access any of the VA's services at all?




I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"


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Monday, June 12, 2006 6:04 AM

ZOID


Who's gonna tell you when
It's too late?
Who's gonna tell you things
Aren't so great?

You can't go on
Thinking
Nothing's wrong...
Who's gonna drive you home
Tonight?

Who's gonna pick you up
When you fall?
And who's gonna hang it up
When you call?
Who's gonna pay attention
To your dreams?
And who's gonna plug their ears
When you scream?

You can't go on
Thinking
Nothing's wrong...
Who's gonna drive you home
Tonight?

Who's gonna hold you down
When you shake?
And who's gonna come around
When you break?

You can't go on
Thinking
Nothing's wrong...
Who's gonna drive you home
Tonight?

You know you can't go on
Thinking
Nothing's gone...
Who's gonna drive you home
Tonight?



Serenadingly,

zoid

P.S.
Lyrics by Ric Ocasek, vocals by the incomparable, late, lamented Benjamin Orr (nee: Orzechowski), who died of pancreatic cancer on October 3, 2000, at the age of 53.

What is lost when a human being dies? Nothing much. Just everything... Anybody who doesn't 'get' that needs to pull their head out of their ass. I mean, could'ja be a little more self-absorbed? I don't think so.
_________________________________________________

"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'

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Monday, June 12, 2006 6:13 AM

JIGMAN


To quote the devil:
"Vanity, definitely my favorite sin."

-------------------------------------------------
All good things must come to an end.

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Monday, June 12, 2006 7:24 AM

ZOID


A little exercise in analogical thinking, for everyone:

Why was (virtually) everyone so accepting of Book's death in "Serenity", yet so incensed, irate, gut-punched by Wash's death?

I mean, they were only fictional characters, right? And Wash was nobody's definition of a hero (he was the 'common man' character), nor was the sudden extinguishing of his life particularly heroic. Hell, he didn't even get to finish his movie-cliche 'last words'...

So why the furor? Are we grieving for Wash, or are we grieving for Zoe? Or are we grieving for our own loss -- never seeing or experiencing this person again -- even though he was only a fictional character? How about some combination of all these aspects?

While you're pondering that, keep in mind that we're talking about a parallel to real people dying in the 'real' world in which we live. Even those we don't know. Every life has worth, every loss of that valuable worth is felt deeply by someone (even if it's only me and kindred souls).

Unless of course, you have succeeded in killing yourself emotionally, while still cluttering up the environment physically...



Respectfully,

zoid

P.S.
I don't know if Joss handled Wash's death the way he did on purpose, but that was a stroke of genius, and no doubt about it. By not letting him finish his 'last words', Wash becomes the very image of the way the 'comman man' dies: Suddenly, leaving things unfinished, and almost unattended, as Life and its challenges continue to rush at those who must carry on. And yet, we still mourn and miss them in quiet, unguarded moments, even years later. Even years later, we may be transfixed by a happy memory of a lost friend or loved one; a word spoken, a loving caress, or a funny facial expression.

Anyone who says they can't feel that is either lying (cowering in fear) or very sick in the head. To those in the former category: Grow a pair and get back in the game; you "have nothing to fear but Fear itself". To those in the latter category I recommend, as Dennis Miller put it, "leaning in and taking one for the team"...

(NB: Baseball-speak, meaning 'leaning in' to the strike zone and being intentionally struck by a fastball (in the head), so that the team gains an advantage at the expense of the batter's personal physical pain. Capisci?)
_________________________________________________

"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'

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Monday, June 12, 2006 7:52 AM

TRISTAN


Amen, Zoid.


____________


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Monday, June 12, 2006 8:17 AM

WINDIE


Well river6213, you have managed to pull me in again, very interesting thread.

I think I am more like you than I would really like to be. Ok not as open as you appear to be now, but hey I am a big believer in sh!t happens.

As for the whole death thing I have seen enough for me not to even think about it anymore. It is just what happens, people can bitch and wine all they like, you're still getting a good bite of death eventually. There is nothing you can do about it doesn't matter if you are rich or poor, you are going to get there.

Human's in general tend to think that they are here for a special purpose, well we are not. There is a big cycle that goes something like you're born, you do a bit, then you get off the bus and give someone else a go. It's as simple as that, I don't even believe that you have much choice in how it is going to be unless you are born into money. Personally I am glad I wasn't I like the uncertainty that goes along with having just enough. It would take the fun out of life if I could just say I want that one and that one, oh and that one as well.

But as for death who cares. I don't and when I am gone don't grieve, just have a good party and get on with your existance. I would much rather be the cause of a damn good hangover that you won't forget in a while than be cried about.


Why have they taken the sky from ME

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Monday, June 12, 2006 8:28 AM

JIGMAN


Well spoken. In referandum to my previous post I obviously agree.

-------------------------------------------------
All good things must come to an end.

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Monday, June 12, 2006 9:38 AM

JIGMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by zoid:

P.S.
I don't know if Joss handled Wash's death the way he did on purpose, but that was a stroke of genius, and no doubt about it. By not letting him finish his 'last words', Wash becomes the very image of the way the 'comman man' dies: Suddenly, leaving things unfinished, and almost unattended, as Life and its challenges continue to rush at those who must carry on. And yet, we still mourn and miss them in quiet, unguarded moments, even years later. Even years later, we may be transfixed by a happy memory of a lost friend or loved one; a word spoken, a loving caress, or a funny facial expression.

Anyone who says they can't feel that is either lying (cowering in fear) or very sick in the head. To those in the former category: Grow a pair and get back in the game; you "have nothing to fear but Fear itself". To those in the latter category I recommend, as Dennis Miller put it, "leaning in and taking one for the team"...



Zoid, while I do agree with some of the things you said, there is a point I must disagree with you on. I do not believe that people who do not feel grief at the loss of a loved one fall into one of those two catagories. From personal experience, I do not dwell sorrowfully at experiences never had with my father in the quiet times, but rather I think with happiness upon the times that I did have with him. When I do this, I never feel regret,or anything like that. My father is dead. I will never see or speak with him again, save in my mind's eye.

I have seen people who react with grief at loss, and have myself in the long past, before I came to understand that it is better to reflect fondly on a person's life rather than sady on thier death. Simply take death as it is: an ending. There is nothing sad about it, and never dwell on missed opportunities, because nothing good can ever come of it.

I suppose you could say I also take a bit of Jayne's attitude to death in The Message as well. When death has come to to me in the past, immediately after, I feel the need to just DO something to help reflect, rather than sit around moping. I would ride my bike, or climb a tree, or start a new picture(I am an art major), while I think of the person I lost with fondness. And the memories would always make me smile.

-------------------------------------------------
All good things must come to an end.

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Monday, June 12, 2006 10:29 AM

REYNOLDSFAN34


Reading these posts I have to come to the conclusion that something in this society has shut off so many young people from caring, from their emotions and from love. I am 55, and I am grieving very much, for my Mother died about 2 months ago. Yes, she was in bad shape and in many ways it is a relief, I had taken care of her for 6 years, and the last ones over 2 years 24/7. She was 89 years old, I am an only child. And yet, I miss what there was of her, her smile, telling her I loved her, the small things she might be able to still enjoy. I loved her more then words can say and while it might be better for her now, I am extremely saddened. I changed her, fed her, kept her alive. I am from a somewhat better time, I think. These days, what with illegal immoral wars, and all people can think about is themselves, and not acknowledge that and the other evils going on around them, and the shallow celebrity culture, and maybe so many not having a close attachment to someone, well, it is very sad. I miss my mom, always will, and did the best I could for her. She was a wonderful person, when she was herself, and sacrificed for me and my mostly ill father. I am honored that I took care of her, and will miss and love her till I am no more. I think it is sad so many here are so crass and flip about it,, it shows me sad things about today's world.

I stand between the Candle and the Star. Between the Darkness and the light.

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Monday, June 12, 2006 10:45 AM

LITTLEALBATROSS29


River,

You're my kinda crazy.
The only death of a loved one that still bothers me is my kitty that I had & loved for 16 years. It's been 3 years & it still makes me cry like a babe.

Otherwise, I tend to react very much like you, not seeing what the fuss is about.It's not like it can be avoided or anything.

Bryce
*************************************

I swallowed a bug.

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Monday, June 12, 2006 10:57 AM

RIVER6213


How does one handle death?


Many people have presented many ways and methods answering this question. It makes you think a lot about death. As I stated in previous posts, I boasted about having no problems with my death or the death of others, which still holds true.

Sometimes, when you run into people like this, for a moment, you could actually become a little envious of their attitude concerning death because it seems so clear-cut. Either they are hiding something, or they may actually feel this way, but with the balance of cause and effect of life...in this area, and this attitude for some, the balance shows itself in a different direction.

I begin to think about some of your responses to my and other people's posts from Sunday, and I found myself at certain points, for a moment, feeling rather smug that I didn't have a problem dealing with death, but then someone, and I can't remember the name of the poster, said something that caught in my mind like glue and I haven’t been able to get rid of it. It kept me up all night long. I’ve never thought in this direction before because I was always trying to make up excuses; was always trying to hide this from myself. I have no problem dealing with death all right, but I DO have a major problem dealing with life.

Self-Pity Mode- Engaged
Off-Topic Mode -Engaged

I'm sitting here at my desk at work feeling really miserable because I now know that I hate my life. I mean really hate it. I hate this thing I’ve created…its so soulless. I hate this company I started. I hate the people. I hate coming in here and seeing their creepy little faces expecting me to make a decision. I hate their expectations of me. I hate that they change their attitudes around me and try to kiss ass. I hate the backbiting they do with each other. I hate my cars, and I hate my boats. I hate that people put on a fake face to me just because they know I have money at this company. They fucking French kiss my ass here to get ahead. I hate the stupid parties that I have to throw for these idiots here to make them happy and work harder. I hate the paperwork; GOD!!! I hate the paperwork! I hate the meetings. I hate it I hate it I hate I hate it!!!!

I wish I could just leave it all behind me. I feel like running away from it all. I wish I were poor and happy living in some hellhole somewhere, sharing a can of tuna with a person I love. I wish I could change my personality, and my race and be someone else. I hate being me. I’m so joyless, and boring. I’ve become what I hate the most. I’m this soulless, money grubbing, full of myself, white privileged asshole. Is there an asshole gene? If there is I have it in spades.

You know, after all these years I don’t have a clue how to live a life and be happy; I never have. I made it to the top of the heap in these parts and what am I? A Sad Little Queen on a Sad Little Hill.

Self-Pity Mode Disengaged
Off-Topic Mode Disengaged

River


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Monday, June 12, 2006 11:51 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC


Sometimes I like to think of myself as a writer, I'm not a very good one and I never published anything, but there is one story I believe in, a novel that I wish I had the skill to write the way it deserves to be writen.

This is the main character from it, Thomas who is narrating, and several minor characters he's having lunch with in high school. The conversation is hardly deep, but it's the kind of conversation I had in high school so I figured it fit.

It's not polished or even remotely good, but I feel like sharing it. The characters mentioned are Ryan (Ry), Alex (Lex), and Cassandra (Doom.) Thomas doesn't even use his own name much and never took the time to get a nickname.

So here's how a fictional character looks at death, which is different from handling it, but I was reminded of this by, "Or are we grieving for our own loss -- never seeing or experiencing this person again -- even though he was only a fictional character?" And the idea that the bad part of death is the loss of experience.

-

"I don't think anyone fears death," I said, entering into my first conversation with them.

Most of them looked at me funny, Lex said, "Huh?" I decided to explain myself, which would involve talking more than I had in a week of coming to that table. Mostly I had sat and watched them and enjoyed the company.

"Let's say there's nothing after death." I let that hang. "No after life, no ghostness, just a whole lot of nothing. No consciousness. Your life is over and that's it."

"That's scary," Ry said.

"Is it death you fear? A moment of your life just like any other, except another moment doesn't come after it." I shook my head. "Wouldn't you cherish that moment, wouldn't you love it more than anything else? Because if that moment wasn’t there," I paused, "you'd have one moment less.

"Or is it the moment after? The moment you cease to be. The moment that you aren't there anymore. The moment that you’ll never open your eyes again. Isn't that what you fear? The sunrises you'll never see, the flowers you'll never smell, the snowballs you'll never throw, and the pizza you'll never eat. Isn't that what you fear the most? Life going on without you.

"They'll say, 'It's not the end of the world,' but it is. It is for you."

"Damn," Doom said. And the table was silent. Sometimes you say something so deep, so disturbing it fucks everything up. I had depressed all of them. "Now would someone pass me a piece of pizza before I die?" and by saying that I jumpstarted half a dozen conversations, which is impressive considering how few people there were.

I ate a pizza while wondering how they managed to hold so many conversations at once. I have trouble keeping track of one, they were all holding two or three.

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Monday, June 12, 2006 12:46 PM

ZOID


RiveR6213 wrote:
Quote:

...You know, after all these years I don’t have a clue how to live a life and be happy; I never have. I made it to the top of the heap in these parts and what am I? A Sad Little Queen on a Sad Little Hill.

So, quit!

Quit being a "soulless, money grubbing, full of myself, white privileged asshole".

Just quit it.

To those whom much has been given, much will be demanded. (Paraphrased, a la JFK, from Luke 12:48)

Who's forcing you to be a leech on the backside of humanity? You proclaim to be in control of your destiny, of what your personality is. So who is that powerful Svengali that's forcing you into such isolationist modes of thought, into a prison of your own design? It's only you.

You don't trust others, because they want to control you, or because they want to take advantage of your trusting nature. But it's only you that's screwing yourself over. ...That and your beloved (damned) possessions.

So, here's a place to start:
Wear (or purchase) the most unassuming clothing you can find. Buy a cheap pocketbook to put your ID in; carry no credit cards, money or other trinkets. Take off all your jewelry, perfume and makeup. Brush all the 'product' out of your hair.

Take a taxi or *gulp!* ride the bus to a homeless shelter, an orphanage, a battered women's shelter -- whatever suits your conscience. (i.e., Don't drive or have yourself driven in one of your automobiles.) These institutions are everywhere in this day and age, so don't say there's not one in your area. If not, jet to another city, then change into your cheap, unfashionable, ill-fitting disguise and read on.

When you get there, volunteer to help for the day. If they ask for your ID, show it to them; nobody will recognize you, regardless how famous you think you are. If you don't look like somebody who has recently bathed in mother's milk, you won't get a second glance.

The people you will meet in these places will shock you to your core. They will be 'poorly maintained': they may smell bad, have bad teeth, be malnourished, suffering from chemical dependence withdrawal symptoms (even the infants), have bruises and scars... They may look at you with distrust, fear, apathy, even outright hatred.

In other words, they are just like you.

They are made of flesh and blood, and have hearts and minds. Tend them even though they distrust, fear and hate you. Feed them. Comfort them. Ask for nothing -- not even a thank you -- in return. If they do thank you, if a child hugs you, accept it as though it were a blessing from God her/himself (because it is).

But the key is to do these things anonymously, not for recognition or as a publicity stunt, not as a public display of generosity. Just be a person, ordinary and unremarkable, doing things strictly for the benefit of people to whom Life has not been as kind as it has been to you.

Sometime during your day of labors, get the mailing address of the charity's administrative offices and later mail them an exorbitant sum of money, untraceable to you. Never claim it on your income tax, or tell anyone from your company or the media that you did it.

Repeat as necessary...

Eventually, this will change you into a person capable of (responsibly) caring about others, and capable of being (genuinely) cared about in return. How? Because persons in these circumstances cannot demand anything of anyone; they are living on the very edge of existence. They are the people marginalized by the greed of the wealthy, by those who connive to possess 200 times as much as they need to comfortably survive. Where did you think that money comes from? Do you think they just print up more whenever rich people decide they don't have enough? Or did you ever suspect that perhaps it comes out of the pockets of the poorest among us, the most benighted, out of the mouths of babes?

Just give it back. Give it all back, if you can stand it. Sounds to me like none of it's doing you any good, only harm. At least giving something back will benefit those who can't continue living without a fair share, even if you revert to form and regret letting it slip through your claws afterward...



Respectfully,

zoid

P.S.
You want to be a good person? Then stop fantasizing about it and be a good person. No one's stopping you but that "Sad Little Queen" in the mirror.
_________________________________________________

"Reject the basic assumptions of civilization, especially the importance of material possessions." -T. Durden, Fight Club

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Monday, June 12, 2006 12:48 PM

THESOMNAMBULIST


Originally posted by RiveR6213:

Quote:

I'm sitting here at my desk at work feeling really miserable because I now know that I hate my life. I mean really hate it. I hate this thing I’ve created…its so soulless. I hate this company I started. I hate the people. I hate coming in here and seeing their creepy little faces expecting me to make a decision. I hate their expectations of me. I hate that they change their attitudes around me and try to kiss ass. I hate the backbiting they do with each other. I hate my cars, and I hate my boats. I hate that people put on a fake face to me just because they know I have money at this company. They fucking French kiss my ass here to get ahead. I hate the stupid parties that I have to throw for these idiots here to make them happy and work harder. I hate the paperwork; GOD!!! I hate the paperwork! I hate the meetings. I hate it I hate it I hate I hate it!!!!

I wish I could just leave it all behind me. I feel like running away from it all. I wish I were poor and happy living in some hellhole somewhere, sharing a can of tuna with a person I love. I wish I could change my personality, and my race and be someone else. I hate being me. I’m so joyless, and boring. I’ve become what I hate the most. I’m this soulless, money grubbing, full of myself, white privileged asshole. Is there an asshole gene? If there is I have it in spades.

You know, after all these years I don’t have a clue how to live a life and be happy; I never have. I made it to the top of the heap in these parts and what am I? A Sad Little Queen on a Sad Little Hill.



River

I keep thinking of you and what you've written. I've been struggling all night trying to find the words, the appropriate sentence that will have the words to soothe your querries, and each time I delete, close down the forum and sit down again to watch some TV. Then your posts come back to me and I find myself thinking of another way to possibly reply to your comments.

So here I am for the fifth, possibly sixth time, trying to construct a worthy reply. I'm not sure I'll do right even now but here goes....

River give yourself a break. If only for one night. Just one night when you don't think about all this stuff, all this vapour in random disarray. I couldn't agree more that life is a series of ups and downs. A Sisyphian struggle... But it needn't ALL be that way.

I'm somewhat sad to read your latest post about the life you've created and how much you hate it, but really why be so brutally analytical about your life? Why be so negative about what you've done. It's so easy to be negative about such things.

I could just as easily reduce my life to a series of failures: 35, no wife, no kids, no pension, short! Few friends, stays indoors talking on forums, don't own a house, can't own a house, can't fathom quadratic equations, can't get a book published, haven't advanced medicine or philosophical thought and have absolutely no grasp of the force!

You get my drift I'm sure. I'm just trying to establish the fact that you are being WAY, WAY to hard on yourself.

And for the record you're in no way faceless and boring where d'you get that from?! Have you seen the length of this thread, the variety of personallities at work here! It's fantastic! You've engaged the minds of several members, that has to count for something? No?

So ok you don't know the answers to life - none of us do, and therein lies the route of how we all wonderfully connect in this ever tumbling series of events, that have us laughing and crying to our graves...

The
Somnambulist

www.cirqus.com

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Monday, June 12, 2006 12:56 PM

LITTLEALBATROSS29


River,

You remind me so much of myself sometimes.

Zoid has some very good points .Try listening.But as you know ,it won't be easy. It never is, never will be.

But you do have us . And that's something.

Bryce




I swallowed a bug.

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Monday, June 12, 2006 1:17 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC


Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
You know, after all these years I don't have a clue how to live a life and be happy; I never have.


I've not tried to change you mind or analyze you or any such thing. I've asked one question of you and when you didn't have an answer I didn't press it.

I bring this up to point out that I'm not interested in telling you how to live your life or be a better person.

But I do have something to say and I hope you'll think about it.

What you're doing obviously isn't working if that is true. You said you serve yourself so serve yourself.

If you haven't found a way to be happy then you've done a crappy job of serving yourself because you've accomplished nothing that actually helps you.

So if what you're doing now isn't working, and from what you said it isn't, change it.

What have you got to lose? Your sad little hill? Your spot at the top of the heap? Well neither of those is helping you right now, neither of those is serving you right now. So why not put them to work and try to get them to serve you, if they can't then that means they're failures.

Meaningless nothings in part of a life without a point.

Depressing perhaps, but I'm not always a ray of sunshine.

-

Enjoy yourself, the worst that can happen is you die a horrible painful long drawn out death, and that's not really that bad when you think about it.

Obviously you have to find out what makes you happy, but that's a self-serving action that I'm sure you can pull off if you put your mind to it.

You have nothing of value to lose, and stuff to gain.

It is possible that you might find joy in other people, it's possible you might not. But you don't need to change your personality to do it either way.

Charity takes only the selfish need to sleep well at night and feel good about yourself.

Love is when it hurts you for another to be hurt (ok so that's only a small part of it), so when you do things for them you're doing it for yourself.

I can't see your soul or anything like that, but I have a feeling you aren't so fucked up that you can't enjoy life. That's because anyone can.

If you are an asshole and you really can't change that then go on being an asshole, but remember to look out for your state of mind as well as the rest.

If at some point you need to hold back on being an ass I doubt it would too hard for you, to get where you are you must know how to compromise.

What you're doing isn't working so change it, and if anyone tries to stop you tell them fuck off.

If you can change yourself so you don't hate yourself that's great, but if you can't you can still find some joy, so do it. Only two things stand in your way, you who you don't like much, and the rest of the world, which can fuck itself.

Live life, because what you're doing now doesn't sound like living, it's rotting with a pulse.

I can't tell you what to do, I don't want to anyway, but do something.

Something different. Maybe something you'd never normally do, just something totally out of character. Or not. Whatever. Do something. If that doesn't work do something else.

We're all dying and you've got only so many heartbeats left, it's time you had some fun.

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Monday, June 12, 2006 1:29 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC


I hope you don't feel like we're all acting like we're above you or something. Giving advice that may or may not be good, advice that conflicts.

I don't think I'm better than you and I don't think I can solve your problems just from reading a post on a forum.

I do care about you, I don't know why and I don't care why. I want to see you happy, even if you are as souless as you say.

It's a weakness really, but it's one I'm proud to have, and it's something I hope you'll think about that.

For whatever little it is worth we are here for you and we care about you. You're right, this isn't a thread about you, but it became one because the people here want to see you happy, that may not matter to you, it may not matter at all, but it's true and it matters to us.

Whatever you decide to do, even if it is nothing, we'll still be here.

I hope you try to change your life because there's no point in doing that which you hate, I think other people are trying too hard to get you to do what they think will help though.

By all means do out and do something good, an act of charity or kindness, see if it has any effect on you, see if you enjoy it in the least. But you don't need to do that, take a kayak or a hike, go to Florence (I love it there) just ditch everything for a day and watch your favorite movies.

Do anything that isn't part of what you hate to see if it will make you feel any better. Your life is up to you, as it should be, but I want to see you happy because I'm a selfish bastard who hates it when people I care about are down, and you're one of those people, so I hope so very much that you'll do something.

-

Sorry for two posts in a row, you know me by now, I just can't shut up.

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Monday, June 12, 2006 2:08 PM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by zoid:
RiveR6213 wrote:
Quote:

...You know, after all these years I don’t have a clue how to live a life and be happy; I never have. I made it to the top of the heap in these parts and what am I? A Sad Little Queen on a Sad Little Hill.

So, quit!

Quit being a "soulless, money grubbing, full of myself, white privileged asshole".

Just quit it.

To those whom much has been given, much will be demanded. (Paraphrased, a la JFK, from Luke 12:48)

Who's forcing you to be a leech on the backside of humanity? You proclaim to be in control of your destiny, of what your personality is. So who is that powerful Svengali that's forcing you into such isolationist modes of thought, into a prison of your own design? It's only you.

You don't trust others, because they want to control you, or because they want to take advantage of your trusting nature. But it's only you that's screwing yourself over. ...That and your beloved (damned) possessions.

So, here's a place to start:
Wear (or purchase) the most unassuming clothing you can find. Buy a cheap pocketbook to put your ID in; carry no credit cards, money or other trinkets. Take off all your jewelry, perfume and makeup. Brush all the 'product' out of your hair.

Take a taxi or *gulp!* ride the bus to a homeless shelter, an orphanage, a battered women's shelter -- whatever suits your conscience. (i.e., Don't drive or have yourself driven in one of your automobiles.) These institutions are everywhere in this day and age, so don't say there's not one in your area. If not, jet to another city, then change into your cheap, unfashionable, ill-fitting disguise and read on.

When you get there, volunteer to help for the day. If they ask for your ID, show it to them; nobody will recognize you, regardless how famous you think you are. If you don't look like somebody who has recently bathed in mother's milk, you won't get a second glance.

The people you will meet in these places will shock you to your core. They will be 'poorly maintained': they may smell bad, have bad teeth, be malnourished, suffering from chemical dependence withdrawal symptoms (even the infants), have bruises and scars... They may look at you with distrust, fear, apathy, even outright hatred.

In other words, they are just like you.

They are made of flesh and blood, and have hearts and minds. Tend them even though they distrust, fear and hate you. Feed them. Comfort them. Ask for nothing -- not even a thank you -- in return. If they do thank you, if a child hugs you, accept it as though it were a blessing from God her/himself (because it is).

But the key is to do these things anonymously, not for recognition or as a publicity stunt, not as a public display of generosity. Just be a person, ordinary and unremarkable, doing things strictly for the benefit of people to whom Life has not been as kind as it has been to you.

Sometime during your day of labors, get the mailing address of the charity's administrative offices and later mail them an exorbitant sum of money, untraceable to you. Never claim it on your income tax, or tell anyone from your company or the media that you did it.

Repeat as necessary...

Eventually, this will change you into a person capable of (responsibly) caring about others, and capable of being (genuinely) cared about in return. How? Because persons in these circumstances cannot demand anything of anyone; they are living on the very edge of existence. They are the people marginalized by the greed of the wealthy, by those who connive to possess 200 times as much as they need to comfortably survive. Where did you think that money comes from? Do you think they just print up more whenever rich people decide they don't have enough? Or did you ever suspect that perhaps it comes out of the pockets of the poorest among us, the most benighted, out of the mouths of babes?

Just give it back. Give it all back, if you can stand it. Sounds to me like none of it's doing you any good, only harm. At least giving something back will benefit those who can't continue living without a fair share, even if you revert to form and regret letting it slip through your claws afterward...



Respectfully,

zoid

P.S.
You want to be a good person? Then stop fantasizing about it and be a good person. No one's stopping you but that "Sad Little Queen" in the mirror.
_________________________________________________

"Reject the basic assumptions of civilization, especially the importance of material possessions." -T. Durden, Fight Club



Sorry for the rant. I was sitting here looking at the stack of papers that need my signature and I just felt disgusted, and that's when I flew off the handle (on this board) and wrote all that stuff. Totally frustrated I was, but I went for a walk and ended up having an interesting conversation with some old women who was talking to herself at a bus stop. This is a strange city indeed. I feel better now.

Your advice is a good one. The things you mentioned are things I haven’t done in a long time. I might try them. It’s a lot better of an idea than sitting in this building.

River

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Monday, June 12, 2006 2:37 PM

NUCLEARDAY


Quote:

Originally posted by FollowMal:
I lost my father a year and a half ago at Christmas, Dec. 26th to be exact. He died on his Mother's birthday and I told him as he slipped away from me that he was so good to wait until the day AFTER Christmas. I sat with my Father all night long and waited with him for death. I was there when he drew his last breath. He was the bravest man I knew and he faced death with dignity and strength no different than I'd come to know him for. I cried, I cried plenty. I was also thankful that I knew him and he loved me and I loved him. I was grateful for all the years that we were so close.
I was grateful for the pain. I was so much more blessed by the love over the years.. that the pain was well worth it.

I expect to have some more death in my life before it's my turn. It will be horribly painful, but only because I was so close to those who I will lose that I will miss them, and mourn them. And rightfully so. I am alive and I love, therefore I will suffer. I'm glad it's so. I am not so afraid of my own personal pain, that I can't know love and enjoy it.

The greatest pain I can think of is to not have love of others and they of you.

"You hold. Hold 'til I get back." Mal

Thanks for that FollowMal, summed up my own feelings on the subject alot more eloquently than I could have :)

Oddly, I also lost my father around Christmas time. My mother was out of state visiting her relatives, leaving my two siblings and my Dad in the house alone. He was home from work recovering from back surgery, and I was on break from school, so we got to spend some quality time together before he passed.

Without getting into long and boring details, I was alone in the house with him when he had his heart attack. It was totally out of the blue, and something none of us were expecting. I had the rather unwelcome duty of calling 911, attempting CPR, waking my mom up with a long-distance phone call, waiting for the ambulance to arrive and explaining the situation to my brother since he showed up just as the ambulance was pulling in. My sister, luckily, slept through the entire fiasco, and I got to stay up all night waiting for her to wake up so I could break the news to her, which was the hardest part by far. :P

That was December 20, 1999. He was pronounced DOA at the hospital. I think we've all managed to move on to some degree, but it still gets to me when I dwell on it. I don't grieve for my father, but for myself and all the time we've missed out on these past years. Even now I'll catch myself coming across something I think he'd be interested in, and have one of those "oh, yeah, he's dead" moments :) He's the one who hooked me on sci-fi, and games, etc. (I think he would've been quite a loyal Browncoat were he still around :)

And... well, this is running quite long. Just felt since everyone else was sharing that I'd throw in my own views :) I think it's certainly worth the pain in losing someone if that's the price of it all. It was a gift that I knew my Father like I did, and the last gift he gave me was in dying; 'cause nothing's ever been all that difficult after that night :) Everyone's entitled to their opinion, but this one is mine :P

________________________________________________
You can take my Browncoat when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers. (Or if Kaylee asks me nicely...)

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Monday, June 12, 2006 2:43 PM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:

Quote:

I'm sitting here at my desk at work feeling really miserable because I now know that I hate my life. I mean really hate it. I hate this thing I’ve created…its so soulless. I hate this company I started. I hate the people. I hate coming in here and seeing their creepy little faces expecting me to make a decision. I hate their expectations of me. I hate that they change their attitudes around me and try to kiss ass. I hate the backbiting they do with each other. I hate my cars, and I hate my boats. I hate that people put on a fake face to me just because they know I have money at this company. They fucking French kiss my ass here to get ahead. I hate the stupid parties that I have to throw for these idiots here to make them happy and work harder. I hate the paperwork; GOD!!! I hate the paperwork! I hate the meetings. I hate it I hate it I hate I hate it!!!!

I wish I could just leave it all behind me. I feel like running away from it all. I wish I were poor and happy living in some hellhole somewhere, sharing a can of tuna with a person I love. I wish I could change my personality, and my race and be someone else. I hate being me. I’m so joyless, and boring. I’ve become what I hate the most. I’m this soulless, money grubbing, full of myself, white privileged asshole. Is there an asshole gene? If there is I have it in spades.

You know, after all these years I don’t have a clue how to live a life and be happy; I never have. I made it to the top of the heap in these parts and what am I? A Sad Little Queen on a Sad Little Hill.



River

I keep thinking of you and what you've written. I've been struggling all night trying to find the words, the appropriate sentence that will have the words to soothe your querries, and each time I delete, close down the forum and sit down again to watch some TV. Then your posts come back to me and I find myself thinking of another way to possibly reply to your comments.

So here I am for the fifth, possibly sixth time, trying to construct a worthy reply. I'm not sure I'll do right even now but here goes....

River give yourself a break. If only for one night. Just one night when you don't think about all this stuff, all this vapour in random disarray. I couldn't agree more that life is a series of ups and downs. A Sisyphian struggle... But it needn't ALL be that way.

I'm somewhat sad to read your latest post about the life you've created and how much you hate it, but really why be so brutally analytical about your life? Why be so negative about what you've done. It's so easy to be negative about such things.

I could just as easily reduce my life to a series of failures: 35, no wife, no kids, no pension, short! Few friends, stays indoors talking on forums, don't own a house, can't own a house, can't fathom quadratic equations, can't get a book published, haven't advanced medicine or philosophical thought and have absolutely no grasp of the force!

You get my drift I'm sure. I'm just trying to establish the fact that you are being WAY, WAY to hard on yourself.

And for the record you're in no way faceless and boring where d'you get that from?! Have you seen the length of this thread, the variety of personallities at work here! It's fantastic! You've engaged the minds of several members, that has to count for something? No?

So ok you don't know the answers to life - none of us do, and therein lies the route of how we all wonderfully connect in this ever tumbling series of events, that have us laughing and crying to our graves...

The
Somnambulist




The
Somnambulist,

No, you are right. The people on this board are great. You guys certainly don't take any crap from me, and that's saying plenty. Okay, okay!! I flew off the handle! I lost my Vulcan control, or had too much caffeine today.

I have to take things seriously though. Things are set up in this company where I have my hands involved in everything. I just can't leave, I would love too but I can’t at this moment in time. I think I will be able to take a year off starting this October if everything goes right and then I can take the time to rediscover people and myself, but let me tell you, this job is killing me.

I spent yesterday watching BTVS and posting on this forum. This is something I do enjoy because it gives me the opportunity to just talk, or be silly, or be thoughtful and not have to worry about anyone talking just so they can be seen talking to me to impress their friends on the job. But it never lasts, back to work I go, back to the monster I created, back to being the bitch and I’m tired of being the bitch. I have issues I think, deep seated if you ask me.

If I were to ignore the job I created, by all reason, my life should be grand. I should be happy because I have everything I’ve always wanted. I can go where I want and do what I want. I should be very, grateful and I am for what I have, but it appears that life is more than material items, money and position. This stuff helps, but in the end, it all comes down to being able to form friendships and relationships, which I have, trouble doing. I’ve spent too much time on the job moving and jockeying this place into position and taking down the opposition to the point where I see enemies everywhere. I’m one of the few women in this business, so there are always men challenging me, and that’s where I think I learned to be the bitch, and I’m good at it…too good at it to the point where I sacrificed my soul and being to win.

This job got me to thinking about how people relate or deal with death, which is what prompted me to start this thread. 3 people in this company died, one person was very popular with the people here. His death caused wide-ranging reactions of emotion from everyone except for me of course.

But I have to go!!!! I will finish this post later!


River

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Monday, June 12, 2006 2:49 PM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by FromtheDark:
I dont grieve so much any more, i get the whole we are born most of us live then we die but yeah i spill a few tears for the dead only coz i know im not going to see them for a while but then there is nothing.
But i must admit when only a few months ago six teens around my age were wiped out when a car ran into them i was taken back for a bit longer then when i lose people whom i love.

But RiveR213 i agree humans suck i have more compassion for animals than anything else.


If at first you dont succeed, you wont be skydiving again




I shed tears when a favorite character dies on a TV show. I cried when Buffy sacrificed herself for her sister and humanity during the season 5 finale of BTVS.

Isnt it amazing how we can cry over animals and fictitious characters easier than real human beings?

River

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Monday, June 12, 2006 2:50 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC


Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
I have to take things seriously though. Things are set up in this company where I have my hands involved in everything. I just can't leave, I would love too but I can’t at this moment in time. I think I will be able to take a year off starting this October if everything goes right and then I can take the time to rediscover people and myself, but let me tell you, this job is killing me.


You don't have to wait till then to find yourself.

Start small and don't put it off.

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Monday, June 12, 2006 4:08 PM

FOLLOWMAL




Nuclearday...

I am grateful we both had Fathers who were so connected with us and that we were each able to do the things that needed done. You are right you know.. nothing is ever so hard as that.

We changed as we were supposed to.

Thank you and *hugs*

"You hold. Hold 'til I get back." Mal

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Monday, June 12, 2006 5:18 PM

CHRISISALL


Respectfully,

zoid

P.S.
You want to be a good person? Then stop fantasizing about it and be a good person. No one's stopping you but that "Sad Little Queen" in the mirror.

He is Zoid. He is good. Listen to him. We all should.

Sell the company and retire, then help people. I you had died last time it all would belong to friends of Bush now anyway. Do something completly scary and unprecedented. Re-make yourself.

Best regards, Chrisisall, a cyber-friend

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Monday, June 12, 2006 7:25 PM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Respectfully,

zoid

P.S.
You want to be a good person? Then stop fantasizing about it and be a good person. No one's stopping you but that "Sad Little Queen" in the mirror.

He is Zoid. He is good. Listen to him. We all should.

Sell the company and retire, then help people. I you had died last time it all would belong to friends of Bush now anyway. Do something completly scary and unprecedented. Re-make yourself.

Best regards, Chrisisall, a cyber-friend



It's good advice, but it is not as easy as that, though I appreciate the advice and I know its right. I can't just sell off this thing. It’s very complicated and could involve courts, and other sub industries and a lot of other annoyances that could drag on for years, and this sort of thing could lead to a no vote of confidence which is a death sentence in my line of work. I don’t need that headache. There would be no way to justify it, and no one gives a damn about the human element. I’ll just have to find another way.

If this were a movie or a poorly written novel, I would be a Super villain who wanted to be transformed back into a human with feelings, but the catch is, I have to lose my super powers in the process that makes me a super villain. Crazy world we live in.

I'd like to thank everyone for sharing their stories and opinions regarding death and how you deal with and handle it. Crazy stuff, some of what I read here about other people's experiences are hard to comprehend, and I know I could never go through, and survive the experiences that they had with the demise(that spelled right?) of the ones they love.


Example: Zoid's band member, his father, and his grandfather deaths, and all that he had to go through to come to terms with them.

Shadowfly, who, along with his family saw his father off, and has hopes that when he's on his way out, he has the ones who love him the most to be there to send him on his way.

Sameertia, A person who understands the cycle of life, and understands the transformation of death. A person who believes that grief is healthy.

Mima, who attempted to connect with me because she/he sees a person with some serious, deep seated, emotional issues.

Pinballwizard for his sharing of his great grandmother's death, and also for his 1st experience at comprehending what death really means.

And for Arcadia's hair-raising story of grand mother dying at the age of 10 and at the age of 16 she loses yet another friend during car surfing. At 18 she loses another friend who shoots herself twice in the chest, and then most recently this year, she loses an Aunt. Heavy stuff.

Sisterbettyx whose family treats death like a celebration. This is a new one for me.

Christhecynic, who avoids death like the plague and who believes that death has a habit of coming at the wrong time.

Copilot who watched her grandfather die, and had kind words for him at his funeral.

To JTSKIER12)) who believes that death is unnatural.

Twoshells, who gets introspective and then moves on rather than wallow in depression. He believes that memory is what counts.

To FutureMrsFillion who doesn’t fall apart during emergencies, and does not act the fool, but death has a habit of affecting her a long time. Love does not shut off like a light switch with this one.
And to all the others who have shared their mind numbing stories and experiences:
FollowMal
Chrismoorhed
Chrisisall
Thesomnabulist
Mick91
MicJwlch
Jigman
Tristan
Windie
Reynoldfan34
Littlealbatross29
Nuclearday

Thank you all for being part of this board, and part of this thread. Good answers and good thoughts to the question I put forth.

Long winded River



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Monday, June 12, 2006 8:02 PM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by windie:
Well river6213, you have managed to pull me in again, very interesting thread.

I think I am more like you than I would really like to be. Ok not as open as you appear to be now, but hey I am a big believer in sh!t happens.

As for the whole death thing I have seen enough for me not to even think about it anymore. It is just what happens, people can bitch and wine all they like, you're still getting a good bite of death eventually. There is nothing you can do about it doesn't matter if you are rich or poor, you are going to get there.

Human's in general tend to think that they are here for a special purpose, well we are not. There is a big cycle that goes something like you're born, you do a bit, then you get off the bus and give someone else a go. It's as simple as that, I don't even believe that you have much choice in how it is going to be unless you are born into money. Personally I am glad I wasn't I like the uncertainty that goes along with having just enough. It would take the fun out of life if I could just say I want that one and that one, oh and that one as well.

But as for death who cares. I don't and when I am gone don't grieve, just have a good party and get on with your existance. I would much rather be the cause of a damn good hangover that you won't forget in a while than be cried about.


Why have they taken the sky from ME




I don't really see myself sitting about and thinking 'how can I drag Windie into a topic?' I make these topics up out of personal interest and am interested in other people's opinions...nothing more. You joined this thread because it struck a chord in you and you felt like you had something to say, so don't blame your choice on me...I've got my own issues I don't need yours.

River

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Monday, June 12, 2006 9:59 PM

WINDIE


Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
I don't really see myself sitting about and thinking 'how can I drag Windie into a topic?' I make these topics up out of personal interest and am interested in other people's opinions...nothing more. You joined this thread because it struck a chord in you and you felt like you had something to say, so don't blame your choice on me...I've got my own issues I don't need yours.

River



Glad to see you are back to your normal self, striking out at anyone who may try to say anything positive about you. Your right the topic of the thread did strike a cord with me, not going to tell you why.

We all know that you have had issue's and we all know that you do not want anyone else's. But if you start this type of thread it will get answered by all types of people be they weak or strong. Just live with it, the majority of us neither give a sh!t or want anything from you except maybe the occasional nugget of information supplied by yours and other peoples posts.

Keep posting and people will keep reading it's what we do on here after all.

Why have they taken the sky from ME

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Monday, June 12, 2006 11:53 PM

ONTHEDRIFT


Quote:

Originally posted by Reynoldsfan34:
Reading these posts I have to come to the conclusion that something in this society has shut off so many young people from caring, from their emotions and from love. I am 55, and I am grieving very much, for my Mother died about 2 months ago. Yes, she was in bad shape and in many ways it is a relief, I had taken care of her for 6 years, and the last ones over 2 years 24/7. She was 89 years old, I am an only child. And yet, I miss what there was of her, her smile, telling her I loved her, the small things she might be able to still enjoy. I loved her more then words can say and while it might be better for her now, I am extremely saddened. I changed her, fed her, kept her alive. I am from a somewhat better time, I think. These days, what with illegal immoral wars, and all people can think about is themselves, and not acknowledge that and the other evils going on around them, and the shallow celebrity culture, and maybe so many not having a close attachment to someone, well, it is very sad. I miss my mom, always will, and did the best I could for her. She was a wonderful person, when she was herself, and sacrificed for me and my mostly ill father. I am honored that I took care of her, and will miss and love her till I am no more. I think it is sad so many here are so crass and flip about it,, it shows me sad things about today's world.

I stand between the Candle and the Star. Between the Darkness and the light.



Reynoldsfan34, You should feel honored that you took care of your Mom. That's a wonderful testimony of your love, a great gift to give someone. I got very disheartened after reading some of the posts, I try to have hope for the future and agree it seems like something's gone terrible wrong, but try to have hope. I am from a younger generation and I do understand what you're saying. I helped take care of my Grandpa, and am still mourning his loss. The fact that we grieve makes us human, it shows our capacity to love each other. Hang in there Reynoldsfan34, FollowMal and the others who have shared their stories, and take comfort in knowing there are others who empathize with your experiences.

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Tuesday, June 13, 2006 5:30 AM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by windie:
Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
I don't really see myself sitting about and thinking 'how can I drag Windie into a topic?' I make these topics up out of personal interest and am interested in other people's opinions...nothing more. You joined this thread because it struck a chord in you and you felt like you had something to say, so don't blame your choice on me.

River




Glad to see you are back to your normal self, striking out at anyone who may try to say anything positive about you.




Sorry Windie,

Actually that last post of mine to you did seem like it was hostile, but it wasnt meant to be that way. I thought I was being funny, but having looked at it again, it does look hostile and I didnt mean to come off that way. Sorry.

River




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Tuesday, June 13, 2006 9:21 PM

DANTE144


not well.

still trying to figure it out.

I guess I just have faith that God will get me over this hump. I may not feel good now but around the bend is a better day. Even if I can't see it today.

"Jesus saves, everyone else takes damage" -tee shirt some girl was wearing at Megacon.

http://dantedreams.com <-my webcomic

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Tuesday, June 13, 2006 9:25 PM

WINDIE


Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
Quote:

Originally posted by windie:
Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
I don't really see myself sitting about and thinking 'how can I drag Windie into a topic?' I make these topics up out of personal interest and am interested in other people's opinions...nothing more. You joined this thread because it struck a chord in you and you felt like you had something to say, so don't blame your choice on me.

River




Glad to see you are back to your normal self, striking out at anyone who may try to say anything positive about you.




Sorry Windie,

Actually that last post of mine to you did seem like it was hostile, but it wasnt meant to be that way. I thought I was being funny, but having looked at it again, it does look hostile and I didnt mean to come off that way. Sorry.

River






No problem River, it says a lot about you that you felt the need to apologize. There was really no need as there was no offence taken, it takes a great deal to get my back up and a few words generally doesn't do it.

As I said to you once before I am more of a reader than a poster, I just like reading other peoples points of view and every now and then chipping in with something.

Thanks again for your posts past and present I generally find them interesting and succinct and disturbingly similar to my own point of view.

Windie

Why have they taken the sky from ME

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Tuesday, June 13, 2006 9:52 PM

RIVER6213


Look, I want to destroy the world, and myself, but I don't want to be rude about it. I guess that sort of thinking is my way, as strange as it may sound.

River


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Tuesday, June 13, 2006 9:56 PM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by dante144:
not well.

still trying to figure it out.

I guess I just have faith that God will get me over this hump. I may not feel good now but around the bend is a better day. Even if I can't see it today.

"Jesus saves, everyone else takes damage" -tee shirt some girl was wearing at Megacon.

http://dantedreams.com <-my webcomic



What's wrong with you? You dying?

River

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Tuesday, June 13, 2006 10:52 PM

DANTE144


My Mom died just recently.

"Jesus saves, everyone else takes damage" -tee shirt some girl was wearing at Megacon.

http://dantedreams.com <-my webcomic

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Friday, June 23, 2006 11:47 PM

MINIME


I'm really sorry for your loss.

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Saturday, June 24, 2006 12:19 AM

AGATSU


Sorry to hear that, Dante - when my granny died last year, it kinda dawned on me for the first time that people aren't gonna be around forever, and made me realize that my parents aren't immortal, either. Scares the hell out of me.
I can still not even guess how you feel now, though. Maybe it soothes you a bit that death is far worse for those left behind than for the dead.
Knowing that helped me cope with my granny's death a great deal.


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