GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

How Do You handle Death?

POSTED BY: RIVER6213
UPDATED: Sunday, January 18, 2009 09:09
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Saturday, June 10, 2006 7:30 PM

RIVER6213


I don't know what all the drama's about regarding death. I've lost friends through suicide and natural causes. I've watched my friends go through the death of their parents and let me tell you; they were all over the place grieving, and getting all deep with thoughts and stuff. I'll never understand it.

Death for me means that this stupid madness called life is over, but some people take it in different ways. So, are you the type that goes completely to pieces when death comes a calling, or are you the cool, collect type that understands the cycle of this stupid life and realize that life equals loss?



River




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Saturday, June 10, 2006 7:37 PM

SINGATE


Personally I'd try putting Death in a full nelson until he, or she, cried uncle.

We all die, so what's the point in getting bent out of shape over it?

_________________________________________________

We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far.

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Saturday, June 10, 2006 7:40 PM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by singate:
Personally I'd try putting Death in a full nelson until he, or she, cried uncle.

We all die, so what's the point in getting bent out of shape over it?

_________________________________________________

We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far.



Good for you. That's how I see it also. Tag 'em and bag 'em I say.

River

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Saturday, June 10, 2006 7:46 PM

SASSALICIOUS


I fall somewhere in the middle . . . I'm one of those people who keeps a lot inside and only privately acknowledges the pain. For instance, when my grandpa died last year (a few days before Thanksgiving), I cried in my room a few times and cried at the funeral, but kept it together for the rest of the world and when I called my dad to tell him and when I mentioned it to Dad's side of the family at Thanksgiving. After a couple of weeks, I'd accepted it and moved on.

I think the one that sticks with me the most though, is my best friend's two attempted suicides, especially since I was on the phone with her during the second one. She didn't die, but it took awhile to get over.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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Saturday, June 10, 2006 7:53 PM

EMBERS




I've seen a lot of death too, which has made me pretty accepting of it. I think it is harder for people the first time they come face to face with the loss of someone they love, which leads to the need for some sense to be made of it.

I can understand and respect those who feel the need

but I've become pretty fatalistic my own self.

edited to add: I guess I've missed the threads where the men around here have been all judging and/or easily shocked...
seems to me we have mostly guys who are pretty accepting and open to the Wonder Women and/or Rivers in their lives.
(of course I avoid the RL threads)

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Saturday, June 10, 2006 8:13 PM

RIVER6213


I will never understand why so many people make such a noise about death. I guess it comes out of the relationships that we form in our lives. The closer you are with people, the harder it is to take when they die on you. My goal is simple. Make no more friends, and death isnt an issue.

I'm so glad that my parents died early. I don't have to deal with their problems, and my friends...I got rid of the remaining few a while ago, and the others died from suicide or natural causes. I am so complete, so free of the human, bonding equation.

Later on in life, I will remember this board where I suddenly, for a year, dumped my whole life out to complete strangers in a mood swinging sort of way. You people have seen me through all kinds of stupid drama that the people I currently associate with have not a clue. This is very interesting.

I guess i really don't care about humans. The human race can kiss my ass.

River

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Saturday, June 10, 2006 9:17 PM

MONKSDAD


Dealing with death sucks, as human beings it is the worst thing we have to deal with. Losing someone close is , is, I cant describe it. but we move on, we have to or we ourselves will die. and that defeats the whole point now doesnt it, stay alive and look for better da¥s.

on these boards i dont even think of anyone as male or female. we are all just browncoats.

"And I think calling him that is an insult to the psychotic lowlife community."

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Sunday, June 11, 2006 12:33 AM

TUFTYFELLA


the way i see it is the day we are born we begin to die. what matters is what we do inbetween the two.

no point crying over it imo, its a part of life.

i dont believe in god or any of that crap (no offence u believers) but i cant wait to find out what happens after death... not that i want to die any time soon to find out that is...

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Sunday, June 11, 2006 12:40 AM

ZOID


I discovered my maternal grandfather's body, with a ragged black hole in its (notice I didn't say 'his') chest cavity, following his 'gun cleaning' accident. I was six years old.

The drummer in my first band died in a car accident when I was about 20-ish. He was a habitual drinker (as were we all to some lesser extent), and had been drinking before the accident. We were returning from a weekend 'gig' (never liked that word) in Galveston on Highway 6, a 60 mph 2-lane. The official report was that he'd had a front tire blow-out in his TransAm (damned 'direct rack-and-pinion steering') and struck an El Camino head-on at highway speed. The other driver was uninjured. My friend's head was crushed by his drum kit, which he had stowed in the back seat. It rained for three days through his closed casket funeral, at which we his bandmates served as pall bearers. His widowed mother was inconsolable at the loss of her only son.

My paternal grandfather passed away when I was mid-way through Basic Training. He was the person to whom I most closely related in this world. He had an absolutely wicked sense of humor, but was gentle and loving. In his earlier life, he was reputed to be "as mean as a snake", mostly when he was drinking. I never saw that side of him. He was a temperate and lovely soul.

My father died in May of 2001, of inoperable lung cancer. My father's life was a tapestry of errors, misjudgments, immoderate behavior, alcoholism and sometimes, rotten luck. He truly struggled against Life itself, and was genuinely unhappy as a result. He never learned to just float on the current, like an inner tube ride on some lazy scenic river, gazing at passersby and the intricate beauty of Nature around him. He tried to swim upstream against that indolent current, and was slowly drowned for his pains. I drove across three states with my two (still living at home) children to see him, in the last week of his life. Cancer had diminished him physically, but not spiritually. He played with his grandchildren and took great joy in doing so, playing piano and trundling through the neighborhood in his powered wheelchair (with breathing apparatus). We left the next day, and other grandchildren came to visit and pay last respects over the next couple of days. He died on that Sunday. He donated his body to UT Medical Branch.

+++++++++++

When my 'grandaddy' died, I was in a car with my mother, an aunt, and his ex-wife, my grandmother. We were driving to supper when suddenly all three women looked at each other and my Grandmother said, "Harold is dead." They turned the car around and drove to his house, but he was already gone, with a hole like a doorway in his airless chest.

When Grandpa died (of cancer), they offered to let me go home for his funeral. Even though I was nearly 28 years old, I had been crying a lot over his loss (in seclusion). It hit me pretty hard since, as I said, he was the one human being I truly admired. I declined. I told them that I knew he would want me to finish what I had started.

When my father died, I felt saddened for the things we had never been -- could never be -- for one another; but I also felt a great wash of relief. God had made him what he was, and what he was had made his life a living hell. Who would not feel joy that such a life was through? As Jesus and the Operative said, "It is finished". But even though he had been given a heavy cup to bear, my father never gave up, never threw in the towel. In his last twenty years, he finally gave up drinking, though his uncontrollable temper and pathological jealousy still spoiled any human relationship he tried to foster. He was a thoroughly flawed man, and I respect him all the more for putting up with that lousy hand of cards without looking to take the easy way out. His life is an object lesson in courage that is not lost on me.

I do not grieve for the dead. Those are just bodies, the shells that used to hold their souls. I saw that with my own eyes at the age of 6. But I feel their souls around me still, unencumbered by fallible flesh, and helping me as I wend my way through my Life.

River6213, you have my pity, and that's the second most horrific thing I can say to a person. You sound like my dad, to a tee. Stop swimming upstream so hard. Learn to float, just every once in a while.



Respectfully,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'

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Sunday, June 11, 2006 2:56 AM

FROMTHEDARK


I dont grieve so much any more, i get the whole we are born most of us live then we die but yeah i spill a few tears for the dead only coz i know im not going to see them for a while but then there is nothing.
But i must admit when only a few months ago six teens around my age were wiped out when a car ran into them i was taken back for a bit longer then when i lose people whom i love.

But RiveR213 i agree humans suck i have more compassion for animals than anything else.


If at first you dont succeed, you wont be skydiving again

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Sunday, June 11, 2006 3:25 AM

JOSSISAGOD


I see death as a transition, from living in one body to living in what some might call "The Force". I believe that the inhabitants of this 'verse are connected to each other(not through any type of acended being, list all acendeds who apply), and when they die they just become part of a larger existance. I don't believe that we go to heaven or hell but I do believe that we move on and become part of something larger than we once were. So, I don't sit around and cry about it when someone/Thing/Animal I know, dies.

Besides, it was their own stupid fault that they're dead in the first place!

JOSSIS(Most Definitely)AGOD

Self appointed Forsaken! Been on the list for a while now!

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Sunday, June 11, 2006 3:55 AM

RIVER6213


A person I know just lost someone and he's just walking around all zombie-like. I wanted to go over there and slap him and tell him to wake up, but I guess he's just going through his process of acceptance, so I better leave him alone. It’s not the end of the world he's still alive and kicking so what's the problem?
Something about the whole death thing angers me. People simply get strange and reflective in their thinking as though death hasn’t like been surrounding us all our lives. Not a day passes when we don't hear about someone dying. Open up a newspaper and we get to read all about it. Everyday this happens. What's the big deal? I guess it’s suddenly more traumatic when we happen to have known the person that died.
Even I got a little misty at one point over someone's death, but I wasn’t in the right state of mind, so from where I stand, it doesn’t really count.

I sort of like the new me. Uncaring, crazy, and devoid of any form of needing humans for anything. It's almost like I'm a machine, but if that’s what it takes to live here on Earth, so be it.

All this business about losing Grandma's and Grandpa's...sounds heavy, but better you than me. I'm glad I didn’t have to go through that. I’m as free as a bird in this day and time. No connections. Get rid of everyone and you won’t have to deal with people’s death. That’s the key.

River

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Sunday, June 11, 2006 3:56 AM

SERENITYINSCOTLAND


Feeling some pretty hollow vibes in this thread. I get cut up about death, whether its someone close to me or someone I have absolutely no connection to. If it's someone close to me then of course I get upset - I am NEVER going to see or talk to that person ever again, they are gone and everything they could have done in the world will never happen. Death may be a part of life but it is the worst part. People say there are worse things than death, and while that may seem to be the case at some times its almost always never too late to turn it around.
As for people I have no connection with at all, I do not understand how people can be so lacking in compassion that when they wake up in the morning and read that thousands of innocent people have been killed in an act of war or as a result of a natural disaster that they feel nothing. That they (and I apologise for this River6123) 'dont care about humans', and as a result feel nothing for the deaths of men, women and children who never had the chance to experience a full life. I don't understand how somebody can be that empty, that hollow that they do not care for the lives of fellow human beings, but can grieve for the loss of a television show.

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Sunday, June 11, 2006 3:56 AM

SERENITYINSCOTLAND


Feeling some pretty hollow vibes in this thread. I get cut up about death, whether its someone close to me or someone I have absolutely no connection to. If it's someone close to me then of course I get upset - I am NEVER going to see or talk to that person ever again, they are gone and everything they could have done in the world will never happen. Death may be a part of life but it is the worst part. People say there are worse things than death, and while that may seem to be the case at some times its almost always never too late to turn it around.
As for people I have no connection with at all, I do not understand how people can be so lacking in compassion that when they wake up in the morning and read that thousands of innocent people have been killed in an act of war or as a result of a natural disaster that they feel nothing. That they (and I apologise for this River6123) 'dont care about humans', and as a result feel nothing for the deaths of men, women and children who never had the chance to experience a full life. I don't understand how somebody can be that empty, that hollow that they do not care for the lives of fellow human beings, but can grieve for the loss of a television show.

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Sunday, June 11, 2006 4:24 AM

MIMA


Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
I will never understand why so many people make such a noise about death. I guess it comes out of the relationships that we form in our lives. The closer you are with people, the harder it is to take when they die on you. My goal is simple. Make no more friends, and death isnt an issue.

I guess i really don't care about humans. The human race can kiss my ass.




Mima's psych 101 on River who offered herself up for comment:

As soon as I read your first post, i knew that you were living in isolation. "only people who distance themselves have that attitude" i thought, "this person doesn't care about anyone." Then you confirmed it with your second post. The denial and anger in your posts makes me think that perhaps you're a)jealous you haven't found a true connection yet b)still pissed at your parents for dying, especially if you felt unloved when they did.

I agree that most humans suck. the endeavor I've chosen is to be strong enough to live life with an open heart. be very very cautious, but still reach out to people. turn from those who betray you, spend time on people who don't. reach out to people in need, and many times simple human decency (rare, i know) will build a connection that lasts. and when you do find a precious friend/lover/family member who wants to know who you are and still respects you and isn't afraid to share themself, it makes all of life and the other crappy humans bearable.

and you can't have that "oh death is no big deal" thing anymore unless you have a really really strong christian faith (which i dont). so if you don't have the "souls will meet again" thing going on, the loss of another person who saw you and valued you and validated your short mostly pointless life crushes some spark of your soul in a way that sends rage and fear into your heart. that's the big thing about death.

we all want people to *see* us, and it's hard to find those people. and when they're taken from us, our whole self image is in danger. community is what you found here river, and the anonymity of the boards is what makes you feel safe to share. it's why i love them too, plus that this particular set of boards is not full of stupid idiots. if the internet went away today- wouldn't you struggle, personally?

so that's my take on your comments- basically you're being a coward. and you're missing out. safety is lonely. that's why when you said "i am so complete" i laughed out loud. you are laying your {bleeding} proverbial heart out for strangers because you are not complete. you seek community. we all do. we can't help it. i've really enjoyed reading your posts on other threads. thanks for being here. i see you river.

now if you see people in pain and you think "fools, you're so weak. death is certain so you're such dope"- you are mistaken in your judgement. instead you should be thinking "wow there's someone who's not afraid of pain because they dared to love. wonder what that's like?"

and as for your secondary rant, i don't agree with it all. send it directly to the people who insulted you and don't try to paint the boards sexist. i've been here for years and have never not once had a person who flamed at me by throwing my gender into the flame.

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Sunday, June 11, 2006 4:30 AM

RIVER6213


Nice double post.

I care more about Firefly than I do about human life. Just because a person doesn’t grieve like you do doesn’t make them a monster, or hollow as you put it. I've had enough people in my life die on me to the point where death is not an issue. It really doesn’t matter. Death is something that happens. It's an unavoidable fact of life, so why sweat it?

It’s amazing that one has to be tossed into the 'hollow' category just for not feeling the way you do. Hello! This is earth where there are millions of people and each one of those people demonstrates a different personality. I'm sure that there are millions of people on this planet who no longer have feelings about death and don't react to it the way you do.

And death itself is a pretty nasty subject...people react to it in different ways. Some are heroic about it, some are afraid of it, and some just don't give a frak about it and find other people's reaction to it annoying.

Have you ever been around someone who just lost a loved one? All the screaming and crying that they do seriously throws a wet towel into what could have been a good day. And then they walk around like zombies all deep within thought about life, the universe, and everything. If this is a good thing I want to have nothing to do with it. If this is the price of being close to humans...you can leave me out of it.

River


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Sunday, June 11, 2006 4:33 AM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by mima:
Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
I will never understand why so many people make such a noise about death. I guess it comes out of the relationships that we form in our lives. The closer you are with people, the harder it is to take when they die on you. My goal is simple. Make no more friends, and death isnt an issue.

I guess i really don't care about humans. The human race can kiss my ass.




Mima's psych 101 on River who offered herself up for comment:

As soon as I read your first post, i knew that you were living in isolation. "only people who distance themselves have that attitude" i thought, "this person doesn't care about anyone." Then you confirmed it with your second post. The denial and anger in your posts makes me think that perhaps you're a)jealous you haven't found a true connection yet b)still pissed at your parents for dying, especially if you felt unloved when they did.

I agree that most humans suck. the endeavor I've chosen is to be strong enough to live life with an open heart. be very very cautious, but still reach out to people. turn from those who betray you, spend time on people who don't. reach out to people in need, and many times simple human decency (rare, i know) will build a connection that lasts. and when you do find a precious friend/lover/family member who wants to know who you are and still respects you and isn't afraid to share themself, it makes all of life and the other crappy humans bearable.

and you can't have that "oh death is no big deal" thing anymore unless you have a really really strong christian faith (which i dont). so if you don't have the "souls will meet again" thing going on, the loss of another person who saw you and valued you and validated your short mostly pointless life crushes some spark of your soul in a way that sends rage and fear into your heart. that's the big thing about death.

we all want people to *see* us, and it's hard to find those people. and when they're taken from us, our whole self image is in danger. community is what you found here river, and the anonymity of the boards is what makes you feel safe to share. it's why i love them too, plus that this particular set of boards is not full of stupid idiots. if the internet went away today- wouldn't you struggle, personally?

so that's my take on your comments- basically you're being a coward. and you're missing out. safety is lonely. that's why when you said "i am so complete" i laughed out loud. you are laying your {bleeding} proverbial heart out for strangers because you are not complete. you seek community. we all do. we can't help it. i've really enjoyed reading your posts on other threads. thanks for being here. i see you river.

now if you see people in pain and you think "fools, you're so weak. death is certain so you're such dope"- you are mistaken in your judgement. instead you should be thinking "wow there's someone who's not afraid of pain because they dared to love. wonder what that's like?"

and as for your secondary rant, i don't agree with it all. send it directly to the people who insulted you and don't try to paint the boards sexist. i've been here for years and have never not once had a person who flamed at me by throwing my gender into the flame.




Hey, This thread's not about me. This thread is about death and how we go about reacting to it. Not my fault I don't care too much about death...crap happens.

Also, I harbor no ill feelings towards my parents, matter of fact I was glad to see them go and good riddance if you ask me. Anyhow, none of what you said applies to me in any way, but it is interesting stuff, so thanks for the free psych 101, but I'm doing just fine thank you very much.

River

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Sunday, June 11, 2006 5:06 AM

SHADOWFLY


Lost my father last year to cancer of the lungs. We had a large funeral, a great gathering to see him off. I have to say that I've never given death much thought until the old man died. We all die some day, and if this is so, my last days will be blessed with the faces of the ones I love some much seeing me off.

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Sunday, June 11, 2006 5:30 AM

CYBERSNARK




My family skews toward the very old, so death has been a presence (or lack thereof) in my life for as long as I can recall. Mortality is just a part of things.

(I felt strange at my dad's funeral, looking around at everyone crying, and not shedding any tears of my own.)

I've kinda come to look on it as a blessing though; the men of my family don't age well. Senility, Alzheimer's, cancer. . .

(Dad was suffering, toward the end. Maybe not in pain, but his mind just. . . wasn't working right. He was forgetting people. He's not anymore, though. He's fine now, and I'll see him again, eventually.)

My mind is the only part of me that I've ever been proud of. The thought of losing my faculties is more terrifying than death and whatever might follow it. Like Bryan Adams said; hope to die before I get old.

Not suicide though; that's a coward's way. 'Sides, I wanna see how this story ends. I intend to burn out, bright and hot. I want people to remember me.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Sunday, June 11, 2006 5:42 AM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by Cybersnark:


My family skews toward the very old, so death has been a presence (or lack thereof) in my life for as long as I can recall. Mortality is just a part of things.

(I felt strange at my dad's funeral, looking around at everyone crying, and not shedding any tears of my own.)

I've kinda come to look on it as a blessing though; the men of my family don't age well. Senility, Alzheimer's, cancer. . .

(Dad was suffering, toward the end. Maybe not in pain, but his mind just. . . wasn't working right. He was forgetting people. He's not anymore, though. He's fine now, and I'll see him again, eventually.)

My mind is the only part of me that I've ever been proud of. The thought of losing my faculties is more terrifying than death and whatever might follow it. Like Bryan Adams said; hope to die before I get old.

Not suicide though; that's a coward's way. 'Sides, I wanna see how this story ends. I intend to burn out, bright and hot. I want people to remember me.




Nice post.

I also am not too crazy about the idea of losing control of my faculties, but that's what we have to look forward too when we get really old. I for one hope I get hit by a truck before I get too old so I wont have to experince being an old lady.

And suicide? been there done that and I botched it, so I guess I have to wait this life thing out, but I don't even see it as being a cowardly thing to do...sometimes you have to hit the suicide switch. Different strokes for different folks.

When I die, I don't want to be remembered at all, but I won't have to worry about that. I've fixed my life up so well that God himself cannot enter, so I got that covered.


River

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Sunday, June 11, 2006 5:48 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
So, are you the type that goes completely to pieces when death comes a calling, or are you the cool, collect type that understands the cycle of this stupid life and realize that life equals loss?




Death affects me like three people. Like Spock might see it, it is merely the logical end to a beginning. Like Kirk, I am deeply affected, yet I go on (think Edith Keeler), and privatly, like Buffy, I am momentarily destroyed.
I have many sides to me.

Schitzomaybe Chrisisall

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Sunday, June 11, 2006 5:50 AM

SAMEERTIA


Wow.
I don't think I can even respond to this thread after reading the responses posted so far.

I am a Priestess of the Goddess. I understand the cycle of life, and I understand the transformations of death.

This does not mean that I do not grieve. Grief is not for the dead, it is for the living. My dear friend Eric is out of pain now. Somewhere he is safe and whole.

But that doesn't mean that I don't weep for myself, and for my loss of a friend. It doesn't mean that I don't occassionally see something that reminds me of him that causes my eyes to well with tears, and my heart to slow just a little.

Grief is healthy, it is as much a part of the lifecycle as living and dying. "What's the big deal"???? How can you even ask that? Someone who I love, who was a dear part of my life is gone from it. I cannot see him, cannot hear him, cannot laugh at his jokes, or look foreward to his next email. Am I not allowed to weep for my loss, and for the loss his family has suffered?

My heart breaks when I read this thread and see how cold many of you are, how dissassociated from sentiment, as though it is somehow a weakness to weep and to hurt.

It isn't a weakness. It's one our greatest gifts.



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Sunday, June 11, 2006 5:58 AM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
So, are you the type that goes completely to pieces when death comes a calling, or are you the cool, collect type that understands the cycle of this stupid life and realize that life equals loss?




Death affects me like three people. Like Spock might see it, it is merely the logical end to a beginning. Like Kirk, I am deeply affected, yet I go on (think Edith Keeler), and privatly, like Buffy, I am momentarily destroyed.
I have many sides to me.

Schitzomaybe Chrisisall



Edith Keeler? 'City on the Edge of Forever.' My boat is named Edith Keeler.

I didn't like the fact that Edith Keeler had to die in order to put a stop to that growing, pacifist movment that she was fostering that would have kept the United States out of World war 2, and enabled Nazi germany to complete its heavy water experiments, so they could make atomic bombs. And with their V2 rockets take the world.

I can't believe I remembered that! As a teen, I cried over that episode! I was such a weak-assed little girl back then.

Anyway, off topic. Good post Chrisisall, we seem to like the same things.

River

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Sunday, June 11, 2006 5:58 AM

MIMA



I said:
" the loss of another person who saw you and valued you and validated your short mostly pointless life crushes some spark of your soul in a way that sends rage and fear into your heart. that's the big thing about death. we all want people to *see* us, and it's hard to find those people. and when they're taken from us, our whole self image is in danger." (a really cynical view of love as a need to feed the ego- i thought you'd dig that river!)

I think you're saying:
if you have no personal ties whatsoever, you have no need for self image/connections, thus are complete... so death has no meaning because the loss of others does not touch you and the loss of yourself does not matter.

i say: "wow there's someone who's not afraid of pain because they dared to love. wonder what that's like?" And I absolutely agree with Sameertia= grief is for the living.

you say: "If this is a good thing I want to have nothing to do with it. If this is the price of being close to humans...you can leave me out of it."

they are utterly different world views. where you see weakness, i see strength. where you see wasted energy i see an aspect of community- which added value to my life. you acknowledged that feeling grief is something you don't get. so i explained my version, as have others. you have simply restated your opinion. respond to ours.

on a more personal note: river... you're getting testy. this thread becomes about you when you respond to every single post personally. are you trying to convince us how superior you are? there is scorn all through your posts.

you're obviously really put out with having to witness grief in others. i get that you like being a machine. but then you get huffy about being called "hollow." yes there are many personalities and beliefs, and you just put serenityinscotland down for sharing hers. explain to her that even though you have not a shred of compassion for someone who has just lost a loved one, ("All the screaming and crying that they do seriously throws a wet towel into what could have been a good day")­ you are not "hollow."

why do you care you are labelled hollow? does it affect your self image? do you not like to think that there is someone who feels you are less worthy because of your isolation? see, this is my point: i challenge you are complete in yourself. you have needs of the ego: that means you want connections to validate that ego. whether it's membership in a tv's fan club or not. or you wouldn't want this chance to defend your anger at grief. you wouldn't feel the need to rip on people who feel grief. you wouldn't care about posting your opinions. you are isolated, you like feeling safe from the wreckage that can be grief, yet you ask people to talk to you about it while sharing deeply private things. like you're poking a scab.

i'm glad you're "good." i think you're clever and a good thinker. i acknowledge you have a different personality. now i'm challenging you to connect to me. see me, and respond without being huffy.

chrisisall- you so crack me up. ditto.

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Sunday, June 11, 2006 6:07 AM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by SameErtia:
Wow.
I don't think I can even respond to this thread after reading the responses posted so far.

I am a Priestess of the Goddess. I understand the cycle of life, and I understand the transformations of death.

This does not mean that I do not grieve. Grief is not for the dead, it is for the living. My dear friend Eric is out of pain now. Somewhere he is safe and whole.

But that doesn't mean that I don't weep for myself, and for my loss of a friend. It doesn't mean that I don't occassionally see something that reminds me of him that causes my eyes to well with tears, and my heart to slow just a little.

Grief is healthy, it is as much a part of the lifecycle as living and dying. "What's the big deal"???? How can you even ask that? Someone who I love, who was a dear part of my life is gone from it. I cannot see him, cannot hear him, cannot laugh at his jokes, or look foreward to his next email. Am I not allowed to weep for my loss, and for the loss his family has suffered?

My heart breaks when I read this thread and see how cold many of you are, how dissassociated from sentiment, as though it is somehow a weakness to weep and to hurt.

It isn't a weakness. It's one our greatest gifts.





This thread's for people with different opinions on the subject of death, so you are right in the ballpark.

I simply see the crying over the death of a loved one as weak, and a meaningless act with no value at all and a complete waste of time. This is just my opinion of it, not the whole worlds...just mine. My life is set up so I don't have to give a damn about anyone, but it sounds like your life is setup for the feeling aspects of the human journey. You love your friends, you love your family. You are connected to people, and for some this is a good thing. For myself, people are expendable, and in the end really means nothing to me.

But I'm not the whole world. I'm just one small slice of it, which is a good thing because even I have to admit that a whole world full of people who think like me would not be a good thing.

River

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Sunday, June 11, 2006 6:08 AM

PINBALLWIZARD


My first experience with death was with the death of my great-grandmother. I was 6 or 7. I remember comprehending what death meant before then, and that it scared me. I had consulted my father at the time about what it was to be dead, and him being agnostic, told me that no one really knew what happened when someone died, and that there was no reason to worry about it until it happened to you, which, he assured me, was a long way away.
When grandma died, it didn't occer to me that other people I knew could die too. I was only thinking about myself. I was taken off guard and cried my eyes out.

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Sunday, June 11, 2006 6:15 AM

PDCHARLES

What happened? He see your face?


Quote:

Originally posted by SameErtia:
My heart breaks when I read this thread and see how cold many of you are, how dissassociated from sentiment, as though it is somehow a weakness to weep and to hurt.



I have run across several with this attitude towards death. Some see a lot in their lifetimes per job, war, etc. and become numb. Others, view themselves as some battlefield warrior (living in modern society mind you) and the grief is for the weak. Others see it as illogical to grieve, for it serves no positive purpose for the mind and body. I think a lot of it has to do with the disconnected nature of humans today. A social animal, more-than-likely developing the circles to protect one another, thus caring deeply with a bond. We see more and more of these circles breaking with alternatives to human bonding.


It IS healthy and prolly born by design, it is an emotion. The things that drive us to post, love firefly, and invent the internet. Some of these emote.s overpower the others. Like anger, fear, depression or even joy from another source. Apes haven't developed much in the way of society yet; they seem to show love and affection for one another and SEEM to grieve for death. But I bet there was some Silverback that just said F-It!

And yes River does not like being part of the herd... it is her choice and opinion and her theme from what I have read lately.

As for me, I grieve and will continue. I love people which includes family, friends, and co-workers (well , some of them) when they go I will miss them and show signs of grief.

EDIT: Damn! I need to type faster, looks like some of what i had to say was covered.



GO CANES!!!

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Sunday, June 11, 2006 6:18 AM

SERENITYINSCOTLAND


Cheers for the double post compliment.
I wasn't trying to label anyone (I knew it would come across that way though) I just couldn't think of another way to say what I wanted to. I feel that to get the best out of life you have to take the chance on connecting with people even though they might leave you. And if they do, you just have to take the pain, dust yourself down and move on. If you cut yourself off completely, what are you left with?

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Sunday, June 11, 2006 6:38 AM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by mima:

I said:
" the loss of another person who saw you and valued you and validated your short mostly pointless life crushes some spark of your soul in a way that sends rage and fear into your heart. that's the big thing about death. we all want people to *see* us, and it's hard to find those people. and when they're taken from us, our whole self image is in danger." (a really cynical view of love as a need to feed the ego- i thought you'd dig that river!)

I think you're saying:
if you have no personal ties whatsoever, you have no need for self image/connections, thus are complete... so death has no meaning because the loss of others does not touch you and the loss of yourself does not matter.

i say: "wow there's someone who's not afraid of pain because they dared to love. wonder what that's like?" And I absolutely agree with Sameertia= grief is for the living.

you say: "If this is a good thing I want to have nothing to do with it. If this is the price of being close to humans...you can leave me out of it."

they are utterly different world views. where you see weakness, i see strength. where you see wasted energy i see an aspect of community- which added value to my life. you acknowledged that feeling grief is something you don't get. so i explained my version, as have others. you have simply restated your opinion. respond to ours.

on a more personal note: river... you're getting testy. this thread becomes about you when you respond to every single post personally. are you trying to convince us how superior you are? there is scorn all through your posts.

you're obviously really put out with having to witness grief in others. i get that you like being a machine. but then you get huffy about being called "hollow." yes there are many personalities and beliefs, and you just put serenityinscotland down for sharing hers. explain to her that even though you have not a shred of compassion for someone who has just lost a loved one, ("All the screaming and crying that they do seriously throws a wet towel into what could have been a good day")­ you are not "hollow."

why do you care you are labelled hollow? does it affect your self image? do you not like to think that there is someone who feels you are less worthy because of your isolation? see, this is my point: i challenge you are complete in yourself. you have needs of the ego: that means you want connections to validate that ego. whether it's membership in a tv's fan club or not. or you wouldn't want this chance to defend your anger at grief. you wouldn't feel the need to rip on people who feel grief. you wouldn't care about posting your opinions. you are isolated, you like feeling safe from the wreckage that can be grief, yet you ask people to talk to you about it while sharing deeply private things. like you're poking a scab.

i'm glad you're "good." i think you're clever and a good thinker. i acknowledge you have a different personality. now i'm challenging you to connect to me. see me, and respond without being huffy.





I don't see myself as being 'huffy' and I don't see myself poking at the misery and loss of others. I've mentioned private things about myself on this forum, matter of fact I think I've told all of you way too much about me. I don't feel like I'm in scorn-mode, and if I'm coming off like that I'm sorry...I don't mean too. I was just curious how some of you handled death. I shared my stuff. here's a post I did in another thread that I'm copying into this post:

I remember when I found my mother dead, i didnt act like Buffy at all, with panic, loss and fear. I was glad, but not glad in the joyful fashion. I was glad in the way that one experinces when a toothach goes away. I guess my mother had laid there all night dead and the blood had pooled to the center of her body. She was face down. I looked an touched with curiousity. It was weird but I called the ambulance and then went back to watching the Original BSG since it was airing that day. I guess my older brother and sisters freaked out a little, but that was not my problem. I never loved my mother. She gave me no reason too.

Buffy's relationship with her mother, that watcher and her friends is an alien concept for me. I cannot even begin to understand how people form relationships like that. My relationships with people were always strange. Never like what I see on Buffy. No group could ever be that tight, so I must chock it up to being a fantasy made-for-tv sort of thing.

Out of all my friends and relatives that died from natural causes or suicide, I only got upset once about a death, and that death was a guy friend I knew and talked with from time to time. His name was Bruce and he died in 2004. I think I shed a tear or two for him, and then nothing. I must be like a machine or something. Oh well, next DVD.

River


See? I share also.

Anyway, my self image isn’t the strongest. It’s very simple. I get things done, and I'm a strong person, or I was, until I went nuts. I guess I just don't place the same value on life as you do...is this a crime? It’s not a cry for help; I just don't see human life as worth anything. I don't find that having friends is really a good thing, or relationships? Ha! What a joke! I see it as getting in the way of living life; I also see it as weak. How I came to these pea-brained conclusions? Just living life. Am I wrong at thinking these things? Not for myself, but maybe for you.

Watching people losing it over someone really bothers me and it strengthens my resolve to never get close to anyone. It also makes me want to hit them. There's a price to be paid having friends, love, caring, and closeness. That price is loss. It’s not worth it to be torn up inside over another, and I’m never going to reach out to anyone for anything. I think I’m at the point where I can watch someone die in front of me while eating a sandwich. You know how long it took me to get to this point? I am protected. No human can ever do me wrong ever again. I’m not the happiest person living inside my self-made, gilded cage, but I’m safe, and that’s what matters; being safe.

I have zero personal ties now and I like it this way. Also, I don’t feel ‘superior’ to anyone regarding my world view on death. I think you got that all wrong. One could look at my world view and see that it is inferior viewed from the human aspect. The driving need to protect herself so much that she isolates herself, removes the human equation out of her life, and hardens her heart to humanity. This state of mind is not the healthiest thing, but it keeps her safe, and it keeps her flying.

I have not put anyone down in this thread. Just because I don’t get all the noise about grieving, doesn’t mean that I’m putting her down. And what do you mean by connecting with you? I’m doing that right now by typing this response to your post. Am I missing something here? If you are looking for humanity inside my head, it’s gone and been replaced with me.

River

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Sunday, June 11, 2006 6:55 AM

ARCADIA


My reactions to death depend entirely on my relationship to the person and the nature of the death itself.

Both my great-grandmothers died when I was ten. I didn't cry at either funeral, because they'd both had major declines in their physical and mental states. I never want to live how they lived. In a strange way, I was happy for them. It was a little weird and awkward because of this, going to the funerals with all the sobbing people.

When I was sixteen a girl who used to be my fried died while car surfing. When I was eighteen, a woman who had been my aunt for about a yeat shot herself twice in the chest. I felt kind of shocked by both these deaths, but not sad at all, either. Just a little pity for those who were close to them, becaue those are horrible ways to do.

Recently, my Auntie died -- May 20, not even a month ago. This is the only death so far that has been in anyway hard for me. She took care of me when I was a kid for most of the day, free baby sitting, until I was five. I loved her. But she'd been suffering, too. She'd been housebound for about a decade. I cried at the funeral, which was kind of funny because I had to do a reading, so it was lightwaterworkd(I'm not the sobbing type)-reading-returnofthelightwaterworks.

I'm surprised I cried. I thought I was done with crying because a week before she'd died I had thrown myself a little pity party because she was dying and all the other sh*t that is going on in my life. Really, though, I was happy for her, too, because she was movie onto something better. I don't do the brooding or the zombie, thing. I have some moments of selffish sadness where I would have liked to know what she'd have to say about this or that, but mostly I am more relieved than anything.

So, yeah... when old people die, I'm ususally happy for them.

Peace.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Objects in Space"

River: It's just an object. It doesn't mean what you think...
http://www.stillflying.net/ <-- Check it out!

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Sunday, June 11, 2006 7:00 AM

MIMA


thanks for the post river. that's the kind of response i was looking for. i also liked the one you made to sameertia. i feel like you're responding to the ideas more, not just restating. i appreciate your willingness to clarify.

the huffy feeling i got from your dislike of the word hollow. you still haven't explained why you didn't like that label?

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Sunday, June 11, 2006 8:56 AM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by mima:
thanks for the post river. that's the kind of response i was looking for. i also liked the one you made to sameertia. i feel like you're responding to the ideas more, not just restating. i appreciate your willingness to clarify.

the huffy feeling i got from your dislike of the word hollow. you still haven't explained why you didn't like that label?



I really don't have a problem with the word hollow.

Anyway, people have there own ways of coping with death. Some people work a lot so they won't have to think about it. Some people get all bent out of shape and their universe is crushed for a while. Some on the other hand get thoughtful and write a lot about how they feel about everything, and some start to eat a lot and do drugs, plus drink in order to fill up the emptiness around them in order to cope. Some people close up and never open again. Some people stop eating and sleeping, and some people commit suicide.

There are some cultures where they take the dead body, surround it with food and drink, and then everyone has like this party with the corpse right there. Now that's creepy.

River

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Sunday, June 11, 2006 9:03 AM

SISTERBETTYX


Our family treats death like a celebration. All the families and friends from around the world show up and we have this huge party for 7 days. I don't know why we picked seven days to do it, but we do and everyone is encouraged to party hard which we do. After it's all over we sit in silence for 1 hour, and then we all go home.

“I don’t know. This here’s a spectacle might warrant a moment’s consideration.”

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Sunday, June 11, 2006 9:17 AM

DEEPGIRL187


Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
I really don't have a problem with the word hollow.

Anyway, people have there own ways of coping with death. Some people work a lot so they won't have to think about it. Some people get all bent out of shape and their universe is crushed for a while. Some on the other hand get thoughtful and write a lot about how they feel about everything, and some start to eat a lot and do drugs, plus drink in order to fill up the emptiness around them in order to cope. Some people close up and never open again. Some people stop eating and sleeping, and some people commit suicide.

There are some cultures where they take the dead body, surround it with food and drink, and then everyone has like this party with the corpse right there. Now that's creepy.

River



It's not really that creepy. Instead of mourning the person's death, they're trying to celebrate their life. The same principle works for the funerals held in New Orleans where they have parades and marching bands perform. These cultures make death into a positive experience instead of something negative to dwell on.

*************************************************

It's just an object. It doesn't mean what you think.

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Sunday, June 11, 2006 9:21 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
I can't believe I remembered that! As a teen, I cried over that episode! I was such a weak-assed little girl back then.



Let you inner weak-assed little girl out sometimes, even if it's just to cry for Kirk or Buffy. You run with shields up to protect her, and she doesn't need it anymore.


Chrisisall

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Sunday, June 11, 2006 9:26 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC


I avoid it like the plague.

Honestly I think death has a habit of coming at the wrong time. For some reason it comes too soon as a truck's mirror contacts a child's head and she's whipped out of existence.

Sometimes it comes too late as, on that very same day, Regan died long after he was too far out of it to enjoy life in any way.

Sometimes it can be put off like a relative of mine who lived for a full two years after he was told he had six months to live just because he didn't like the idea of those damn doctors telling him how long he could stay alive.

-

In some cases I don't understand other people's reactions. Remember that one they took off life support? After it happened her parents said she was in a better place, the same better place that they had been working to keep her out of.

What the hell was up with that? Here they are and they claim they honestly believe there is a better place that their daughter will go to as soon as she is no longer trapped in her body where she lacks the ability to enjoy life, so what do they do? They do everything in their power to make sure that she is not allowed to go to that place.

If I assume that they are honest and they really do believe in that better place the only conclusion I can draw is that they must have hated their daughter.

-

Personally I don't like death much most of the time. When someone is enjoying their life there's no reason to leave it and I hate to lose them. When someone is in horrible pain (it need not be physical) and they've got no reason to go on and there's nothing left for them here death can be something welcome, many people have earned a death to release them from the life they no longer want.

The problem can be that just because you want to be dead now doesn't mean that five minutes or five years from now you won't be happy you lived. Well if dying stopped you or those you care about from being happy then it wasn't a good thing now was it?

When your life is complete nothing good comes out of not dying, and thus death is a good thing, it stops you from going on longer than you should and ending a good life on a depressing note. When your life isn't complete death is something bad which destroys hopes and dreams and leaves a path of sorrow in its wake.

Death is about timing, and that is the only thing that separates the good from the bad.

-

I should point out that some people know when they're done. My great grandmother stayed alive for my great grandfather, when he died her life was complete and she followed soon after, she didn't need to kill herself, her body somehow knew that it was time to turn off. A lot of people are like that, even when they die violent deaths, just think about how many times someone had something to say, said it, and then died right after finishing those last words.

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Sunday, June 11, 2006 9:34 AM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
I can't believe I remembered that! As a teen, I cried over that episode! I was such a weak-assed little girl back then.



Let you inner weak-assed little girl out sometimes, even if it's just to cry for Kirk or Buffy. You run with shields up to protect her, and she doesn't need it anymore.


Chrisisall



This thread is not about me okay? I'm sorry you guys don't agree with my world view and that's okay, but I didnt start this thread to talk about myself. I posted a lot to keep the thread going for a while...that's all. Just curious how people handle death in their lives thats all.

When I stress a point of view, I'm not stressing it as though my way is for everyone, I'm just sharing what works for me. So what if my view is a little bit more extreme than yours? So what? it doesnt stop you from having your own experience, so stay on topic people and leave the psych 101 at the door.

And Chrisisall, if I could go back in time I would choke the life out of that little girl. Just thought you might like to know that.

River


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Sunday, June 11, 2006 10:15 AM

COPILOT


The only person I've been close to who died was my grandfather.
I lived with my grandparents all through high school. So basically I watched him die for three whole years.
At his funeral I read a poem I wrote for him at my grandmothers request.

I lost the paper but I rememeber one line

Death was not his tragity it was his release

So that is how I feel about death. But some days my christian upbring rears it ugly head and I worry that they're right and I'm a sinner and shall burn for all eternity.


An I carried such a torch.......For the Dark Lord

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Sunday, June 11, 2006 10:49 AM

JTSKIER1200R


I hope nobody is offended by this, but I have noticed that not many have posted anything religious here - so here goes.

River: I cried when I read your posts, not out of pity, but out of sadness for the emotions I feel in you - it seems in you there is only (I use that word carefully, not demeaningly) fear and hopelessness. I hope that is not the case.

I believe every human, even the one who dies while you eat a sandwich, is worthy of crying for. Death is worth crying over, for it is not how the world is supposed to be. Death is an evil, something which brings pain and suffering.

As for my beliefs, I believe that death is unnatural, something abhorrent to our very natures - yet it is something that comes. For me, as a Christian, death is an evil, and it is worth mourning because of the pain it causes, both for the living and for the dying. Pain of broken relationships, missed companionship, and innumerable other hardships. Yet, for me, there is hope of the resurrection in death. Death is a transition, the shedding of our bodies to a new state, and eventually the resurrection of our bodies. So, I mourn for death in the pain it causes and that is not meant to be here but is the result of evil, yet I rejoice in the promise of resurrection, both for me and for those who die in Christ.

I know at times religion can be offensive, so my apologies if it is, yet I felt I needed to tell how I deal with death, and how I feel death is worth crying over, for every human is infinitely valuable. My heart breaks reading some of these posts.

PS: I dont want this to become a thread on theology, so please, I dont wish to defend all I said above here. If you have specific questions for me, please PM me. I would love to hear comments, however.


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Sunday, June 11, 2006 10:56 AM

FOLLOWMAL


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
I can't believe I remembered that! As a teen, I cried over that episode! I was such a weak-assed little girl back then.



Let you inner weak-assed little girl out sometimes, even if it's just to cry for Kirk or Buffy. You run with shields up to protect her, and she doesn't need it anymore.


Chrisisall



Chris you are a wise man.

I lost my father a year and a half ago at Christmas, Dec. 26th to be exact. He died on his Mother's birthday and I told him as he slipped away from me that he was so good to wait until the day AFTER Christmas. I sat with my Father all night long and waited with him for death. I was there when he drew his last breath. He was the bravest man I knew and he faced death with dignity and strength no different than I'd come to know him for. I cried, I cried plenty. I was also thankful that I knew him and he loved me and I loved him. I was grateful for all the years that we were so close.
I was grateful for the pain. I was so much more blessed by the love over the years.. that the pain was well worth it.

I expect to have some more death in my life before it's my turn. It will be horribly painful, but only because I was so close to those who I will lose that I will miss them, and mourn them. And rightfully so. I am alive and I love, therefore I will suffer. I'm glad it's so. I am not so afraid of my own personal pain, that I can't know love and enjoy it.

The greatest pain I can think of is to not have love of others and they of you.

"You hold. Hold 'til I get back." Mal

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Sunday, June 11, 2006 11:21 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST


I only read the first few posts about this and frankly I'm amazed!!!

So what, it's now 'uncool' to morn the death of someone you love!

What the hell! This world is ridiculous!

OK I'll gladly fall into the uncool category and raise my hand and say I lost it when my grandfather passed away recently. Now when I say lost it I mean I shed several tears over a man who had a big hand in making my childhood a memorable one.

Now I may be all manner of wrong in feeling that way but frankly - I don't care.

This is one of the more ridiculous things I've come across here. Here on a forum that on a daily basis mourns the cancelation of a TV show.

While it's all so very philosophical to just sit and dispassionately look at the cycle of life and death as one great big moment of cosmic indigestion, I tend to find that the very human instinct of fear of death as a genuine factor to understanding the pleasures in life.

If people think death nothing to fear then I suggest you've never had to really struggle for life. Maybe y'all should take yourselves off to a far less sympathetic exsistence somewhere, where life is a real struggle, just for the more basic of things like warmth, and water and food. Oh I know it's a cliché to bring up such arguments, but clichés are such because they have a ring of truth about them.

I guarantee any of you, who have to do without some of your more basic of 'gifts' in your lives, you would crumble very easily, and I might add, with zero digntiy.

The
Somnambulist


www.cirqus.com

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Sunday, June 11, 2006 11:30 AM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by jtskier1200r:
I hope nobody is offended by this, but I have noticed that not many have posted anything religious here - so here goes.

River: I cried when I read your posts, not out of pity, but out of sadness for the emotions I feel in you - it seems in you there is only (I use that word carefully, not demeaningly) fear and hopelessness. I hope that is not the case.

I believe every human, even the one who dies while you eat a sandwich, is worthy of crying for. Death is worth crying over, for it is not how the world is supposed to be. Death is an evil, something which brings pain and suffering.




Thank you for taking an interest in this thread.

There's no fear, nor hopelessness here in my life. I'm as safe as a bug in a rug. happiness doesnt always have to have other people guest-starring in it. Why is it that a person who is alone and isolated always percieved as unhappy, hopeless, and full of fear?

My life is great and I have all the things I need in it. If I can manage to keep myself away from people...everything should be fine, but if I up and decide I need to hangout with other people...oh well, I only am asking for trouble and will get what I deserve; I always do.

Death is not an evil. it is something that's been around for as long as life has. Can you imagine what this world would look like if nothing died? Be pretty over crowded I suspect.

Sorry aboout the eating the sandwich and watching someone die line. I reread that later on and thought that it sounded rather ghoulish.

Anyway, your way of hadling death is just as interesting as everyone else here who posted, so you didnt offend anyone. And as far as your religious leanings, been there, done that. Interesting, but I'm too willful for that, but other people find that its a great source of strength and stability for themselves, which is a good thing. We all need a foundation.

You sound like you are a very feeling person...this is a good thing for you. keep it up.

River

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Sunday, June 11, 2006 11:41 AM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
I only read the first few posts about this and frankly I'm amazed!!!

So what, it's now 'uncool' to morn the death of someone you love!

What the hell! This world is ridiculous!

OK I'll gladly fall into the uncool category and raise my hand and say I lost it when my grandfather passed away recently. Now when I say lost it I mean I shed several tears over a man who had a big hand in making my childhood a memorable one.

Now I may be all manner of wrong in feeling that way but frankly - I don't care.

This is one of the more ridiculous things I've come across here. Here on a forum that on a daily basis mourns the cancelation of a TV show.

While it's all so very philosophical to just sit and dispassionately look at the cycle of life and death as one great big moment of cosmic indigestion, I tend to find that the very human instinct of fear of death as a genuine factor to understanding the pleasures in life.

If people think death nothing to fear then I suggest you've never had to really struggle for life. Maybe y'all should take yourselves off to a far less sympathetic exsistence somewhere, where life is a real struggle, just for the more basic of things like warmth, and water and food. Oh I know it's a cliché to bring up such arguments, but clichés are such because they have a ring of truth about them.

I guarantee any of you, who have to do without some of your more basic of 'gifts' in your lives, you would crumble very easily, and I might add, with zero digntiy.

The
Somnambulist






Somnambulist,

The title of this thread is 'How Do You handle Death'

I'm the only one here who believes that it's uncool to mourn the dead. If you read through all the posts you will find a lot of opposition to my devil-may-care beliefs regarding mourning. And you will be delightfully surprised to find that most here agree with you.

Your point of view regarding other people's experiences in this area is interesting. but maybe you should STFU.

I've had it pretty hard in my younger years, and I have been to other countries during my Peace Corp stint for 4 years, and I've lived in some places that the word 'hell' fits perfectly. I am well aware that life is a gift. But in my old age, I really could care less. I was never coddled nor given a break in life. Everything I acheieved, I did it through hard work and sacrifice. Nothing on this worlds for free.

Neither you nor anyone else will be able to change my mind concerning my world view. I seriously believe that if you could walk in my shoes...you'd be dead by now.

River




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Sunday, June 11, 2006 12:05 PM

THESOMNAMBULIST


Originally posted by RiveR6213:

Quote:

I'm the only one here who believes that it's uncool to mourn the dead. If you read through all the posts you will find a lot of opposition to my devil-may-care beliefs regarding mourning. And you will be delightfully surprised to find that most here agree with you.

I've had it pretty hard in my younger years, and I have been to other countries during my Peace Corp stint for 4 years, and I've lived in some places that the word 'hell' fits perfectly. I am well aware that life is a gift. But in my old age, I really could care less. I was never coddled nor given a break in life. Everything I acheieved, I did it through hard work and sacrifice. Nothing on this worlds for free.

Neither you nor anyone else will be able to change my mind concerning my world view. I seriously believe that if you could walk in my shoes...you'd be dead by now.

River



Fair 'nuff. I didn't read all those posts. I did focus more on yours that's true. I'm sorry you've had it hard in your younger years as have many. I too have lived in under privilidged countries where I've had to see my friends I was growing up with have to fight for breakfast off a rubbsih heap. My reaction though has gone contrary to you I guess. But if you did your stint in the Peace Corp then you must have had a very different outlook to have done so, at least a different one to your current attitude which would appear to be more a symptom to a present malaise.

I don't have any wish to change your mind or anyone elses, I merely voiced mine. I don't know your circumstances to any full extent so I cannot say wether I'd be dead in your shoes or not. And I'm afraid I'm not going to enter into a comparison of what ugly things we may or may not have seen in our lives.

As it stands you and I are very much divided over this one.

The
Somnambulist




www.cirqus.com

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Sunday, June 11, 2006 12:23 PM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:

Quote:

I'm the only one here who believes that it's uncool to mourn the dead. If you read through all the posts you will find a lot of opposition to my devil-may-care beliefs regarding mourning. And you will be delightfully surprised to find that most here agree with you.

I've had it pretty hard in my younger years, and I have been to other countries during my Peace Corp stint for 4 years, and I've lived in some places that the word 'hell' fits perfectly. I am well aware that life is a gift. But in my old age, I really could care less. I was never coddled nor given a break in life. Everything I acheieved, I did it through hard work and sacrifice. Nothing on this worlds for free.

Neither you nor anyone else will be able to change my mind concerning my world view. I seriously believe that if you could walk in my shoes...you'd be dead by now.

River



Fair 'nuff. I didn't read all those posts. I did focus more on yours that's true. I'm sorry you've had it hard in your younger years as have many. I too have lived in under privilidged countries where I've had to see my friends I was growing up with have to fight for breakfast off a rubbsih heap. My reaction though has gone contrary to you I guess. But if you did your stint in the Peace Corp then you must have had a very different outlook to have done so, at least a different one to your current attitude which would appear to be more a symptom to a present malaise.

I don't have any wish to change your mind or anyone elses, I merely voiced mine. I don't know your circumstances to any full extent so I cannot say wether I'd be dead in your shoes or not. And I'm afraid I'm not going to enter into a comparison of what ugly things we may or may not have seen in our lives.

As it stands you and I are very much divided over this one.

The
Somnambulist



I too have no intention in engaging in a 'who's the biggest gorilla in the park' Argument, but I want to clear something up with you. One would think that a person who lived and worked in other parts of the world would have a very forgiving outlook on life. My attitude during the peace corp. was one of a person who wanted to help where she could, and I was very determined to do so which I did. My personality at the time was what one could call a normal one. Happy, balanced, nurturing etc. I was very social, and had little stomach for people who couldn’t or wouldn’t accept the gifts that life gave them.

Then I quit the Peace Corp and got all ambitious, and after a hair raising 10 years I was in charge of my own company which has splinter into 12 facilities. I make great money, but in the process of all of that, I think I lost a certain amount of humanity along the way. Added to all the fun experiences I’ve had in the last 7 years, the end result is an apathetical bitch that could care less if people live or die. Isolation is my only friend, and humans are expendable.

I think this is a good explanation. I covered all the bases. Anyway, I thought I would give you a little bit more information. Now enough of me and back to the thread.

River

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Sunday, June 11, 2006 12:27 PM

JTSKIER1200R


Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
Quote:

Originally posted by jtskier1200r:
I hope nobody is offended by this, but I have noticed that not many have posted anything religious here - so here goes.

River: I cried when I read your posts, not out of pity, but out of sadness for the emotions I feel in you - it seems in you there is only (I use that word carefully, not demeaningly) fear and hopelessness. I hope that is not the case.

I believe every human, even the one who dies while you eat a sandwich, is worthy of crying for. Death is worth crying over, for it is not how the world is supposed to be. Death is an evil, something which brings pain and suffering.




Thank you for taking an interest in this thread.

There's no fear, nor hopelessness here in my life. I'm as safe as a bug in a rug. happiness doesnt always have to have other people guest-starring in it. Why is it that a person who is alone and isolated always percieved as unhappy, hopeless, and full of fear?

My life is great and I have all the things I need in it. If I can manage to keep myself away from people...everything should be fine, but if I up and decide I need to hangout with other people...oh well, I only am asking for trouble and will get what I deserve; I always do.

Death is not an evil. it is something that's been around for as long as life has. Can you imagine what this world would look like if nothing died? Be pretty over crowded I suspect.

Sorry aboout the eating the sandwich and watching someone die line. I reread that later on and thought that it sounded rather ghoulish.

Anyway, your way of hadling death is just as interesting as everyone else here who posted, so you didnt offend anyone. And as far as your religious leanings, been there, done that. Interesting, but I'm too willful for that, but other people find that its a great source of strength and stability for themselves, which is a good thing. We all need a foundation.

You sound like you are a very feeling person...this is a good thing for you. keep it up.

River



I dont know how to do the fancy quote stuff, so here is my thoughts in a very bad format:

- The reason I thought I felt fear in you is because I thought it is what motivates you to not get into relationships. I understand that you dont fear death anymore for it cant touch you, but I thought you felt the pain of death, which is what causes you to live your life in such a way that it isnt there. It seemed to me like you were living your live based out of this fear, and therefore shut yourself up because of it. Im glad to hear I was wrong.

- I heard helplessness and sadness becuase of the talk of suicide and the general tone of your posts Also, I have a hard time imagining how I could find joy without a God and without people with whom to share my life. My wife is gone for the weekend, and I already am starting to get lonely... :)

- One question, what did you mean when you said you were too "willful" for religion? Just curious.

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Sunday, June 11, 2006 12:43 PM

THESOMNAMBULIST


Originally posted by RiveR6213:
Quote:

I too have no intention in engaging in a 'who's the biggest gorilla in the park' Argument, but I want to clear something up with you. One would think that a person who lived and worked in other parts of the world would have a very forgiving outlook on life. My attitude during the peace corp. was one of a person who wanted to help where she could, and I was very determined to do so which I did. My personality at the time was what one could call a normal one. Happy, balanced, nurturing etc. I was very social, and had little stomach for people who couldn’t or wouldn’t accept the gifts that life gave them.

Then I quit the Peace Corp and got all ambitious, and after a hair raising 10 years I was in charge of my own company which has splinter into 12 facilities. I make great money, but in the process of all of that, I think I lost a certain amount of humanity along the way. Added to all the fun experiences I’ve had in the last 7 years, the end result is an apathetical bitch that could care less if people live or die. Isolation is my only friend, and humans are expendable.

I think this is a good explanation. I covered all the bases. Anyway, I thought I would give you a little bit more information. Now enough of me and back to the thread.

River



Well, my question to you now though is, do you not think your past feelings/outlook on life/death could return or perhaps be more evenly balanced. Y'know less of two extremes?

I only ask because your present time, as with your past time, is but a moment, a fraction of life, therefore do you not think that drawing a conclusion on life perceiveing it merely from the 'moment' point of view as somewhat limiting?

I mean I've had my moments where I've wanted nothing to do with anyone! (except my Dog he's the best) and it's left me thinking to hell with 'em all.

But and this thread kinda proves it - I always end up caring.

The
Somnambulist



www.cirqus.com

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Sunday, June 11, 2006 1:12 PM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by jtskier1200r:
Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
Quote:

Originally posted by jtskier1200r:
I hope nobody is offended by this, but I have noticed that not many have posted anything religious here - so here goes.

River: I cried when I read your posts, not out of pity, but out of sadness for the emotions I feel in you - it seems in you there is only (I use that word carefully, not demeaningly) fear and hopelessness. I hope that is not the case.

I believe every human, even the one who dies while you eat a sandwich, is worthy of crying for. Death is worth crying over, for it is not how the world is supposed to be. Death is an evil, isomething which brings pain and suffering.




Thank you for taking an interest in this thread.

There's no fear, nor hopelessness here in my life. I'm as safe as a bug in a rug. happiness doesnt always have to have other people guest-starring in it. Why is it that a person who is alone and isolated always percieved as unhappy, hopeless, and full of fear?

My life is great and I have all the things I need in it. If I can manage to keep myself away from people...everything should be fine, but if I up and decide I need to hangout with other people...oh well, I only am asking for trouble and will get what I deserve; I always do.

Death is not an evil. it is something that's been around for as long as life has. Can you imagine what this world would look like if nothing died? Be pretty over crowded I suspect.

Sorry aboout the eating the sandwich and watching someone die line. I reread that later on and thought that it sounded rather ghoulish.

Anyway, your way of hadling death is just as interesting as everyone else here who posted, so you didnt offend anyone. And as far as your religious leanings, been there, done that. Interesting, but I'm too willful for that, but other people find that its a great source of strength and stability for themselves, which is a good thing. We all need a foundation.

You sound like you are a very feeling person...this is a good thing for you. keep it up.

River



I dont know how to do the fancy quote stuff, so here is my thoughts in a very bad format:

- The reason I thought I felt fear in you is because I thought it is what motivates you to not get into relationships. I understand that you dont fear death anymore for it cant touch you, but I thought you felt the pain of death, which is what causes you to live your life in such a way that it isnt there. It seemed to me like you were living your live based out of this fear, and therefore shut yourself up because of it. Im glad to hear I was wrong.

- I heard helplessness and sadness becuase of the talk of suicide and the general tone of your posts Also, I have a hard time imagining how I could find joy without a God and without people with whom to share my life. My wife is gone for the weekend, and I already am starting to get lonely... :)

- One question, what did you mean when you said you were too "willful" for religion? Just curious.



What I mean by "willful" is I like doing what I want to do, and half those things I like to do go against god. God wants all of us to be doing his will 24/7 and that gets boring real fast with a person like me. Just call me a total selfish person.

We have to put other people 1st before ourselves. Well, I say forget that.

We have to love our enemies. I say call in an airstrike on our enemies.

We have to forgive other people because we arent perfect. I say nuke the bastards, and launch a 2nd nuke at them just to make sure.

I'm too mean, too selfish and too egocentric to be a child of god. I went forth and found this out about myself this year. I can't ignore my true nature.

Oh well, life used to be so simple, but times change. Hope I anwsered your questions. Now back to the topic at hand.

River






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Sunday, June 11, 2006 1:57 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC


Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
it doesnt stop you from having your own experience, so stay on topic people and leave the psych 101 at the door.


Unless you want everyone to say, "I deal with death by dying," how they deal with other people with respect to death is on topic, the topic you created.

The psych 101 is part of how they handle death, and how they handle death is pretty fucking on topic.

(The, "fucking," was for emphasis only.)

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