GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

What did they say?

POSTED BY: ZZETTA13
UPDATED: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 11:24
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Friday, April 21, 2006 7:38 PM

ZZETTA13


Hello all you browncoats.

Heres a new thread with some opinions and observations. I'm interested to hear whats on your minds as well.

Now one of the things that I have enjoyed about the Firefly tv series (and Serenity the movie also) was the language issue.

Simon " I use swear words when its appropriate."
Kaylee "Simon, the whole idea is that it ain't appropriate."

It's just my opinion but the use of harsh ( or lack there of) language was an absolute plus for the show.I mean, there were the made up words and all but hearing these didn't seem near as bad.

What do you guys think? If Firefly and Serenity had had more of a hard dialog would the show been have been better, worse, or have had no change at all?
IMO there are really enough shows that burn my ears and I'm used to hearing all kinds of talk every day.I think it gave the show more class.

just Z


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Friday, April 21, 2006 7:49 PM

SAMEERTIA


:) Uh, you HAVE read the translations of those Chinese curses, haven't you?

But I agree. One of the things that I like about Firefly is that they can get the point across without the f-word. Well, in English anyway.

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Friday, April 21, 2006 7:55 PM

ZZETTA13


No SameErtia I haven't read the translation of the chinese words on FF/Serenity. I am way to lazy to do that. I do have a sister-inlaw thats chinese though. Maybe I'll ask her.

Course I may end up with a slap across the face and I don't want that to ing happen.

Z

PS: = rutting

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Friday, April 21, 2006 8:04 PM

CANTONHEROINE


Quote:

It's just my opinion but the use of harsh ( or lack there of) language was an absolute plus for the show.


No harsh language? Hmmm. You might wanna reconsider that notion...
Go here for translations:
http://fireflychinese.home.att.net/


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Friday, April 21, 2006 8:39 PM

ZZETTA13


Just to revise my original post I should have said the lack of non-abusive words spoken in ENGLISH.

I didn't view the translation of chinese. Spoken with the right tone of voice in chinese and "Your mother has a pretty flower garden" could sound pretty gorram bad to me.

Z

Also Cantonheroine that is some very good artwork. I like really like it.

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Friday, April 21, 2006 8:48 PM

ROLANDREYNOLDS


That's an interesting question.

Of course, language in the writing is a huge feature to this show/movie, just for the fact that attention was paid to craft a 'cultural dialect' of the future by combining the old, the present, and the exotic together (well, exotic to us Westerners).

Then again, I'm not entirely sure I know what you're asking. What would the effect be if they dropped the F-bomb every other scene? What if they didn't translate things, or actually said "Goddamn" instead of "Gorram"?

I think if those were the case, the show would have had one less thing making it cool. Harsh language isn't what I think makes a scene or a moment, it's the delivery.

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Friday, April 21, 2006 8:49 PM

SILENCE


Quote:

Originally posted by zzetta13:
Just to revise my original post I should have said the lack of non-abusive words spoken in ENGLISH.

I didn't view the translation of chinese. Spoken with the right tone of voice in chinese and "Your mother has a pretty flower garden" could sound pretty gorram bad to me.

Z

Also Cantonheroine that is some very good artwork. I like really like it.





Yeah well I assure you those Chinese lines have nothing to do with flower gardens! Some of them mention mothers though.

But no, nothing harsh in english.



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One army of Browncoats.

On June 23rd, we aim to misbehave!
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Saturday, April 22, 2006 12:36 AM

NUCLEARDAY


Yeah, the whole use of bad language on TV... I can dig it if there's a point, but... generally, dropping the f-bomb every other line can be taken as a sign that you're lacking in the vocabulary department. So my feelings when I see that stuff on TV is usually that the writers were just being lazy.

The use of made-up words and the chinese swearing just seems a bit more classy to me. Sometimes a situation just calls for a curse, and it's just one more shiny element that the writers went through the trouble of making it interesting.

(Gorramn is cool, but I still think my favorite one is jack-hat :)

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Saturday, April 22, 2006 1:08 AM

CRYBABY


Well sometimes swear words lend more realism to the dialogue. I remember when I first saw Odyssey 5 I thought the moderate amount of cussing really helped since it portray the characters as regular people (despite them all being astronauts) who spoke just like the rest of us.

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Saturday, April 22, 2006 1:41 AM

NUCLEARDAY


Quote:

Originally posted by crybaby:
Well sometimes swear words lend more realism to the dialogue. I remember when I first saw Odyssey 5 I thought the moderate amount of cussing really helped since it portray the characters as regular people (despite them all being astronauts) who spoke just like the rest of us.


Oh, I agree. I think the use of language in NYPD Blue made sense, for example. And oftentimes the situation just calls for it. I've had quite a few arguments with my grandparents that the only proper response to being shot or falling off of a cliff is

Also nice, though, when someone finds an elegant way of being both classy and crude, so to speak. Of course, Science Fiction has a long and storied tradition of using made-up words in place of more common swears (frell and smeg are two of my favorites, though I've found the acceptance of "smeg" as a non-swear depends on who you talk to :)

Here's something I just thought of, though: Is Firefly out in China yet? And how do they handle the swearing in Chinese? ;p

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Saturday, April 22, 2006 4:41 AM

ZZETTA13


Ok browncoats,

RR (Travis) I think you're absolutely right. It's really not the spoken word but the emotion behind the word that helps sell a dramatic situation.

SILENCE, so theres some "mother" words wrapped up in the chinese dialog. Well maybe some "mudder" words in there too.

NUCLEARDAY, FF/Serenity entertainment in China? How do you say "Parental Advisory Warning" in chinese?

CRYBABY, I'm all for realism at the cinema and to a certain extent on tv. But its like was posted here, swearing where it ain't needed is a little much don't cha think? If its happening and I don't know it, thats just creative wool over my eyes.

To get back to what NUCLEARDAY said. I really do have a brother married to a sweet american girl of chinese origin. They have a young daughter and his mother-inlaw lives with them. All speak chinese. He even knows quite a bit himself. I'd love to convert him to the FF verse. But don't know if it would be a good idea.

Part of what I like about FF/S is the very creative touch written into the dialog.

lines like" do you think I'm a complete backbirth?"
or "...you inbred dunghead, he pushed me out first!"

Well these are just classic

Z

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Saturday, April 22, 2006 5:34 AM

SAB39


I agree there's something to be said for not knowing what the words mean.

My favorite moment of Chinese - Wash's beautiful, long drawn out furious swear at Zoe in War Stories about not having asked what the captain thinks - does lose a little of it's dramatic intensity once you learn (a) exactly what Tai kong suo-yo duh shing-chiou sai-jin wuh duh pee-goo actually means, and (b) that Alan got a bunch of the syllables wrong when he said it...

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Saturday, April 22, 2006 8:56 AM

ZOID


Hiya, zzetta13 and Fellow Browncoats:

Okay, so I'll present the opposing viewpoint.

I've always felt it's a peculiarity of so-called 'polite society' to implant cleaned-up versions of swear words into conversation, in order to avoid usage of the actual profanity. Not only do the words differ by a scant vowel or consonant, but everyone knows them for what they really are: a transparently obvious swear word.

Using 'Geez' instead of 'Jesus', 'Gosh darn it' instead of 'God damn it', 'fudge' instead of 'fuck' seems a bit puerile. Is anyone really mollified by using, "This fracking Viper won't make right turns", or, "I'm sick of this frelling universe, Scorpy"? I mean, who exactly do we think we are fooling? And if this strictly cosmetic approach to language works for you, so that having not heard the actual word is the cure-all, and makes the conversation 'polite', well then...

Don't get me wrong. I believe there is most definitely a time and place for both conspicuously polite language and for outright cussing. I just don't mix the two by inserting baby-words so that the profanity is made 'clean'.

I suppose I have a different viewpoint on the power of words -- arbitrary strings of sounds imbued with meaning by common agreement -- as opposed to the intent that lies behind them. I'd much prefer to hear a person with a broken leg say, "Fuck! That hurts!" than "Frack/frell/fudge! That hurts!". It's cathartic for the speaker, and let's me know that I'm dealing with an adult, not a child or an emotionally pinched-off prude.

Of course, if somebody says, "Fuck! That hurts!", I immediately stop rendering assistance and find a bystander with whom to copulate...



Contrarily,

zoid

P.S.
The funny part to me is that Joss Whedon uses 'gorram', et cetera for his characters' language, yet frequently uses 'shit' and fully parses the verb 'fuck' in his conversation with Mark Millar, posted elsewhere on the GenDis forum. What in Hades is up with that? (See how stupid that sounds?)
_________________________________________________

"Son of a bitch!" -The right, proper, Dr. Simon Tam, M.D., Firefly, "The Hero of Canton"

"I aim to misbehave, gorram it." -Capt. Mal Reynolds (sort of), Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'

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Saturday, April 22, 2006 11:42 AM

ZZETTA13


Hello SAB39,

Hiya Zoid,

Yep the substitution of false swear words or those of another language pretty much work for me in the Joss/verse. Its just my preference.

Zoid, I understand what you're saying and to each his own.But having an actor cut loose with a string of obsenities in an excited moment just has me wincing a bit. I know... I know its just me,but thats how I feel.

the way I view it is about like this. A watered down curse word is like seeing someone you would never want to see naked, in a skimpy bathing suit. You pretty much know whats underneath you'd just be ruttin uncomfortable if it fell out.

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Saturday, April 22, 2006 4:25 PM

ZOID


zzetta13 wrote, in part:
Quote:

...A watered down curse word is like seeing someone you would never want to see naked, in a skimpy bathing suit. You pretty much know whats underneath you'd just be ruttin uncomfortable if it fell out.

You been hacking my webcam?!

I see your point, but... Why do people prefer a comforting lie to the unadulterated truth? I'm a 47-year old male, and I will never understand that.

Ah, well. Like I said, I knew I was presenting an opposing, minority view. I didn't expect many to agree with me. I just don't have much use for illusions...



Respectfully,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"I aim to misbehave, but not within line of sight of zoid's webcam." -Capt. Mal Reynolds (sorta), Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'

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Sunday, April 23, 2006 5:30 AM

ZZETTA13


"You been hacking my webcam?!"

lol Zoid,

I just think ppl are more comfortable with a pinch more conservative lingo when it comes to tv. Not that I'm a conservative. Far from it.But when it comes to group entertainment or involvment "being safe" is deemed better that "being sorry" so to speak.

I'm glad that you told the, as you would say "minority" side. Makes for a better discussion.

Thanks for your post, Z

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Sunday, April 23, 2006 5:57 AM

PDCHARLES

What happened? He see your face?


Quote:

Originally posted by zoid:
I see your point, but... Why do people prefer a comforting lie to the unadulterated truth? I'm a 47-year old male, and I will never understand that.



Me either Zoid...

talking to older people growing up... they seemed to think that using curse words showed lack of intelligence. And sure that may be the case with some... like "f', I got to go to the f'n store three f'n times to-f'n-day."

I am not sure, but it seems that the general notion comes from the same source as "Proper Etiquette" which I beleive is originally French. ...and for a time was too contraining and has corroded over time (til now) significantly.

As far as the 'verse... I would expect a group of "oppotunists" on the "Raggedy Edge" to use lots o cussin'...

But intelligence comes in play with the use of the words and when to use them. Jayne may cuss just 'cause thats what came to mind. But, when the cap'n using a strong tone and hushes up the crew with a string of words... well, thats him knowing the difference.. He knows that those words will get everyones attention and fast and in most of their cases they need fast. This is where there is a great side to those words, reserved for the "I ain't playin' around" situations.

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Sunday, April 23, 2006 11:05 AM

NOSADSEVEN


Quote:

Originally posted by zzetta13:
I really do have a brother married to a sweet american girl of chinese origin. They have a young daughter and his mother-inlaw lives with them. All speak chinese. He even knows quite a bit himself. I'd love to convert him to the FF verse. But don't know if it would be a good idea.

Part of what I like about FF/S is the very creative touch written into the dialog.

lines like" do you think I'm a complete backbirth?"
or "...you inbred dunghead, he pushed me out first!"

Well these are just classic

Z

I don't know how much I'd worry about Chinese speakers... Chinese is a tonal language, and most of it is completely butchered on the show.

I do remember being a little disappointed when I first read the translations, not by the crudeness, but by the goofyness. To me at the time, it took away some of the "class". Again, not because of the crudeness, but because translating it into chinese seemed to allow less poetical expressions - expressions that seemed just silly because they could be, and not really all that in line with the kinds of things some of the characters would say in English. I also think some stuff was meant to have a certain nuance that the Chinese translation just didn't in fact contain. But I've gotten over it.

Anyway, someone asked why they bothered substituting in the first place. I imagine a large part of the answer is simply to bystep network censors.

~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ain't. We. Just.

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Sunday, April 23, 2006 12:57 PM

DEEPGIRL187


Quote:

Originally posted by zoid:
I see your point, but... Why do people prefer a comforting lie to the unadulterated truth? I'm a 47-year old male, and I will never understand that



The unadulterated truth is great, and I generally prefer it, but I think Joss's main concern was to skirt the censors, and do it in a creative way. Thus, the use of Chinese. Besides, when you read some of the translations, some of our own swear words pale in comparison.

At last.
We can retire and give up
this life of crime.

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Sunday, April 23, 2006 1:41 PM

ZOID


deepgirl187 replied:
Quote:

The unadulterated truth is great, and I generally prefer it, but I think Joss's main concern was to skirt the censors, and do it in a creative way. Thus, the use of Chinese...

I get that.

What I don't get is the comfortable, warm-and-fuzzy feeling folks get, strictly by changing a vowel/consonant, while the underlying sentiment remains intact.

I say if you're gonna cuss, grow a pair and cuss. And if you're not gonna cuss because it's not proper to do so -- you know, at mama's house, church, school, in a public forum -- then don't cuss. Just don't cuss and then try to hide it by applying some lame, transparent code word like 'frack'.

That's all I'm saying.



Lingually,

zoid

P.S.
I rarely 'cuss' (curse) or 'swear'. That whole prohibition on taking the Lord's name in vain, y'know? I do, however, frequently use profanity: good Old Germanic gutturals. In fact, many times I'll even use the original German (i.e. scheiss hund!); Scots is good too. Scatologically speaking, French is merde for being profane in: it's way too pretty to be an effective emotional release. Which is the only proper use for profanity, imfo.

P.P.S.
On the other hand, I really like the use of 'humped' instead of 'screwed', etc. It's original and not just a weak smokescreen. "We're humped!" It's got a kind of poetry to it, don'tcha think?
_________________________________________________

" I mean, I get how they did it. I just ain't seeing the why." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Firefly, "Shindig"

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Sunday, April 23, 2006 2:41 PM

GIXXER


Cussin' has its place.

If an environment is sweary, then people do swear all the time, and it becomes part of the rhythm and vocabulary. Imagine a bowdlerised "Pulp Fiction" or "Deadwood." See? Absolutely terrible.

As a showcase for the salty epithet, I give you "The Big Lebowski." It would be seriously diminished if broadcast in a cleaned up form.

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Sunday, April 23, 2006 2:59 PM

ACRAZYIVAN


I've gotta say I really like that Firefly has it's own form of cussin'. While I can appreciate a swear in the 'right place' it's nice to have a show where they don't need to. Kind of like no matter how intense the action got in Empire Strikes Back, nobody swore. It's nice to have people express themselves differently.

This post instantly made me think of something from the Serenity novelization that made me cringe somethin' awful. Right after Mal has presented the plan to turn Serenity into a Reaver lookalike, and the crew begins to disagree. In the movie he says "I hear a word outta any of you that ain't helping me out, or takin' your leave, I will shoot you down."

In the novelization it reads: "So I hear a word out of any of you that ain't helping me out, or taking your leave, I will f*cking shoot you."

Now, I know pretty much all of us have our gripes with the novelization anyway - but not only does this change the impact for me, it's completely NOT Malcom Reynolds.

Anyone else feel the same way?

Keep on flyin'

"We've gotta go to the crappy town where I'm a hero."

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Sunday, April 23, 2006 7:24 PM

NOSADSEVEN


Quote:

Originally posted by ACrazyIvan:
In the novelization it reads: "So I hear a word out of any of you that ain't helping me out, or taking your leave, I will f*cking shoot you."

Now, I know pretty much all of us have our gripes with the novelization anyway - but not only does this change the impact for me, it's completely NOT Malcom Reynolds.


That was actually the line in the shooting script the novelization was written from. I remember reading somewhere why they chose to take it out, but I don't remember what specifically it was. (I believe it still would have come in as PG-13 even if it were included.)

But that echoes back to the problem I had with the Chinese. These people were cursing all the time right in front of us, but it didn't really feel like they were. The line you cite wouldn't be out of character in Chinese, but seems so in English. So we either have a skewed view of the characters, or today's most common expletives just aren't used in the 'verse. Either way, I prefer the f***ing-free version. In fact, I think the profanity was the most jarring aspect of the outtakes. Funny, but jarring.


On another note, I think it was a cleaned up version of the Big Lebowski where they changed a series of lines about not "f***ing a friend in the a**," to a series of non-sequitorial lines about not "cooking for a friend in the Alps," or something equally bizzarre... May have been a different movie, though.

~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ain't. We. Just.

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Sunday, April 23, 2006 7:41 PM

EMMAZULE


Quote:

The unadulterated truth is great, and I generally prefer it, but I think Joss's main concern was to skirt the censors, and do it in a creative way. Thus, the use of Chinese...


Actually, there were other reasons for the mixing of Chinese and English (though from the creative standpoint, it WAS useful for that, too :P).

Joss is a HUGE fan of Asian culture, and even took Chinese in college - heck, he even changed his name from Josh to Joss, the latter being Chinese for "luck", IIRC! From an aesthetic and personal preference standpoint, he just LIKES it, and immensely enjoyed incorperating it into his work... heck, anybody happen to recall that there was a Chinese-speaking Potential Slayer in Buffy season seven?

And aside from that... China has a HUGE population. While it's been evened out a bit as far as increases, due to the efforts of the goverment to limit population growth, it's still true that something like one in every seven people in this world speaks Chinese, IIRC. Additionally, the Chinese government and society are becoming increasingly powerful in this day and age - heck, China even has a program to "export the Chinese language", which includes providing materials and native speaking teachers to people in other countries, including the U.S. The idea that maybe someday in the future a whole lot of us will be using Chinese to curse in on occasion?

Not so weird, when you think about it.

Quote:


I get that.

What I don't get is the comfortable, warm-and-fuzzy feeling folks get, strictly by changing a vowel/consonant, while the underlying sentiment remains intact.



I don't get a WAFF (Warm And Fuzzy Feeling). I get a sense of pleasure at being silly.

One of my favorite phrases when I'm frustrated but still not anywhere near the state of crying, is "damn it all to heck!", for instance. Like I said - silly.

It IS silly, and an all-too-conscious effort to be oh-so-polite and/or oh-so-innocent...

...which can be a WONDERFUL tool for characterization. For instance, I had a character once in a story I was working on that WANTED to spew forth a string of curses, but found herself "correcting" herself to say their more "innocent" euphemisitic forms, because she was in front of her younger brother; this was to get across the fact that she had this tendency to want to be all prim and proper and "appropriate" to the point of trying to suppress her own emotions and just overall being too stiff for her own good.

And even better example, though, is in the second episode of "Wonderfalls" (which was entitled "Pink Flamingos"), during what I believe is the opening scene. In Wonderfalls, Jaye is twenty-something; yet in this scene, her father, in response to noticing that the trash pickup people have left the trash cans in the middle of the driveway, STILL says "those sons-of-biscuits!" (as opposed to "those sons of bitches!", of course). The point being that he actually still thinks of her as his little girl despite the fact that she's living on her own now and graduated college and everything... that, and it's just a funny line, precisely because it's so silly. :P His delivery is even funnier, because he makes it sound so delibrate and yet so unconscious - exactly how you'd talk around a small child (which is usually kinda how he speaks to Jaye, heh).

Or in Buffy, season 3,

Select to view spoiler:


the way the Mayor talks (with gee gollies and goshdarnits). It's to emphasize his weird personality; he's an invincible demon, yet he still talks like he walked right out of a fifties sitcom and insists on people always washing their hands and such, and is always talking about things like the Boy Scouts and Civic Duty, despite the fact that he literally plans to EAT the entire graduating senior class.


So yeah. It has its purposes. Also, while I don't think anyone gets a WAFF from it, I do think that innocent people think they'd rather nto "sully" themselves with "nasty" words - or at least, that's a good characterization tool in that way, sometimes. Can you imagine, for instance, Kaylee "dropping the f-bomb"?

One more great instance, in which it was used to a humourous effect: in Hemingway's "For Whom The Bell Tolls", there are never any curse words, only the word "unprintable". YEARS after reading it, and that detail still sticks out in my mind, because I remembered thinking that if he'd actually included the curse words, it wouldn't have been anywhere NEAR as much fun to read.

Quote:


I say if you're gonna cuss, grow a pair and cuss.



Sorry, I prefer not to use steroids. :P (Sorry, could not resist)

I try to save the really strong stuff, especially the "f-bomb" and "s-bomb" and "asshole", for when I "really need" it. In other words, for when I REALLY am pissed off. See, if you use them too much, they lose their power, but if you use them only when you REALLY mean it, they have several times the impact - somebody mentioned Mal's careful usage of curse words, for instance.

Quote:


And if you're not gonna cuss because it's not proper to do so -- you know, at mama's house, church, school, in a public forum -- then don't cuss. Just don't cuss and then try to hide it by applying some lame, transparent code word like 'frack'.



To be far, "frack" is only a euphemism for us people in the real world. :P In Battlestar Galatica's universe, it's the EXACT equivalent of "fuck", as evidenced by the fact that people say things like "don't frack with me" on that show.

I heard somewhere that BSG is supposed to actually be set in the past, not the future - or the original was, anyway - and then the whole "frack" thing makes perfect sense, because it's easier to say "fuck" than "frack", but they're close enough, that I can actually see the former evolving from the latter over time. As it is, the word's origins are kinda muddied already, especially what with it being considered "unprintable" for so long. :P

Also, you have to stop and think that sometimes, words change meaning over time or depending on the context, or just plain become invented on the spot. Sometimes, in order to world-build, one has to consider the use of language as well, and this occasionally means inventing slang ("shiny", anyone?) or curse words... since, of course, those are the words most likely to be invented or change over time (the ol' "c-word", for instance, used to simply refer to women or wives. Now it's a disparaging term for a woman and/or a crude term for a partic'ler part of her anatomy. Wrap your head around THAT one).

On a side note, there's a fantastic book out there about the use and origins of pretty much every imaginable "dirty word" and insult in the English language - absolutely fascinating stuff, I tell ya - called Wicked Words: A Treasury of Curses, Insults, Putdowns, and Other Formerly Unprintable Terms from Anglo-Saxon Times to the Present ; it's by Hugh Rawson. Good stuff. Lovely bedtime reading, too. ;)


~Emma

"I swallowed a bug."

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Sunday, April 23, 2006 9:16 PM

DEEPGIRL187


Quote:

Originally posted by zoid:
On the other hand, I really like the use of 'humped' instead of 'screwed', etc. It's original and not just a weak smokescreen. "We're humped!" It's got a kind of poetry to it, don'tcha think?



LOL
Me too. It does have more feeling to it than "screwed" and in some ways, "fucked". Makes you think more imaginatively.

At last.
We can retire and give up
this life of crime.

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Monday, April 24, 2006 12:18 AM

ZOID



EmmaZule wrote, in pieces:
Quote:

Can you imagine, for instance, Kaylee "dropping the f-bomb"?

Damn straight I can. Just like I can imagine her jumping the bones of a slacker mechanic (not vice versa) because "Engines make her hot!". Just like I can imagine her complaining about needing new D-cell batteries on their next visit to a general store (if you catch my meaning). That girl's as salty as chicken soup, and every bit as therapeutic.

Quote:

Quote:


I say if you're gonna cuss, grow a pair and cuss.


Sorry, I prefer not to use steroids. :P (Sorry, could not resist)


The great part about "grow a pair" is that it applies to either sex, and suggests maturing from a child to a reproductive age adult. Still, good to hear about your aversion to steroids, since they tend to shrink whatever pair you may be equipped with.
Quote:

...this occasionally means inventing slang ("shiny", anyone?) or curse words...

"Shiny, Happy People", REM, 1991 (featuring The B-52s' Kate Pierson). From http://www.songfacts.com/detail.php?id=1518 : "The title and chorus are based on a Chinese propaganda poster. The slogan "Shiny happy people holding hands" is used ironically - the song was released in 1991, 2 years after the Tiananmen Square uprising when the Chinese government clamped down on student demonstrators, killing hundreds of them. (thanks, Ali - Oxford, England)." So, there's your Chinese connection. I'm guessing that 'shiny' is a commonly used adjective in China, not invented for Firefly.
Quote:


I try to save the really strong stuff, especially the "f-bomb" and "s-bomb" and "asshole", for when I "really need" it. In other words, for when I REALLY am pissed off. See, if you use them too much, they lose their power, but if you use them only when you REALLY mean it, they have several times the impact - somebody mentioned Mal's careful usage of curse words, for instance.


I try very hard never to say a curse or to swear when I'm mad at somebody. Saying "Fuck you!", let alone "G-D you" to a person because you're too mad at them to think of anything else to say? The very thought makes me queasy. No, I'm more of a happy-go-lucky, string-of-expletives, all-the-livelong-day kind of guy. My kids know they're in trouble when I stop cussing and start using precise language. Means I'm getting serious.

And my most reviled 'dirty word'? Hate. Parse it any way you want, there is no more destructive and evil a word, yet people use it all the time, and it just makes me cringe every time I hear it.



Expletively,

zoid

P.S.
...And some people treat 'love' like a 4-letter word, too. Go figure.
_________________________________________________

"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'

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Monday, April 24, 2006 4:27 AM

ZZETTA13


Hiya folks,

This post has become just what I was hoping it would be. Interesting,informative and down right fun.

The dialog manipulation in FF/S is just complete crazy fun. Its one of the things that made the wife and I lol when we saw the movie. Very creative.

Does anyone here remember the movie "Caveman" with Ringo Starr? I think there were 2 actual engish words spoken in the whole movie,and by an asian guy at that
by movies end though we knew what they were saying. Glub-glub.

The Joss verse has something of the same going for it. SHINY= great/cool,RUTTIN=?, HUMPED= well we know what it equals and DUNGHEAD=DUNGHEAD....so on

I have to say that Mal dropping the F-bomb now and then could go with the character. But now after 14 shows and a movie, well I just think it wouldn't be the same if he did.

PS: would you guys call the slant thats uesd on FF/S a southern accent?

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Monday, April 24, 2006 4:41 AM

CHRISISALL


I, for one, really appreciated Mal sayin' "monkeyshit" in Serenity. Made it just a little more like home, if ya take my meanin'.


Verbally childish Chrisisall

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Monday, April 24, 2006 6:05 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC


One has to remember that not only is gorram English but, when pronounced correctly, it is beeped out of (or dubbed out of) American television.

I never did figure out why though, I mean in most religions with a god called God that god is the only one who can damn people anyway so, "Damn," means, "God Damn."

-

Personally I think any show where people exclaim, "A baboon’s ass crack," and call others, "dirty animal fuckers," has just the right amount of profanity.

I mean when you insult someone by saying, profanely no less, that they have sex with farm animals that's pretty bad.

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Monday, April 24, 2006 6:11 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC


Quote:

Originally posted by zzetta13:
Does anyone here remember the movie "Caveman" with Ringo Starr? I think there were 2 actual engish words spoken in the whole movie,and by an asian guy at that
by movies end though we knew what they were saying. Glub-glub.


I was just thinking of that movie a couple of days ago.

There were more than two by the way, off the top of my head I can think of:

friend
That's fire
all right (when he gave up on trying to get them to speak English)
shit

and I know there were more.

None the less Caveman was proof that you can have a movie with an entirely fictional language and no subtitles and yet still have the viewers understand exactly what is going on.

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Monday, April 24, 2006 6:19 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC


Quote:

Originally posted by zzetta13:
I have to say that Mal dropping the F-bomb now and then could go with the character. But now after 14 shows and a movie, well I just think it wouldn't be the same if he did.


Missed this.

For Mal to hit us with a one word swear would take a lot, he definately seems more like a, "Fucked by the fickle finger of fate," kind of guy than a simple, "Fuck."

And one has to remember that to anyone with a brain sphincter of hell is clearly more profane than most things said now.

-

I'm not saying that I dislike the word fuck mind you, after all it's the only infix in all of English. Also in an ever changing world where a French government lasts only an average of 24 years the word fuck is a nice little reminder that some things can remain for centuries no matter how much people look down on them and some people still respect all of our ancestors who saw fit to keep the word alive.

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Monday, April 24, 2006 6:43 AM

SAB39


Quote:

Originally posted by christhecynic:
For Mal to hit us with a one word swear would take a lot, he definately seems more like a, "Fucked by the fickle finger of fate," kind of guy than a simple, "Fuck."



I disagree. His "Tzao gao" on seeing the laser sight in War Stories definitely seemed like the sort of thing which would translate to a heartfelt "Oh, fuck", regardless of what the Chinese actually means.

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Monday, April 24, 2006 5:59 PM

EMMAZULE


Quote:

Originally posted by zoid:

EmmaZule wrote, in pieces:
Quote:

Can you imagine, for instance, Kaylee "dropping the f-bomb"?

Damn straight I can. Just like I can imagine her jumping the bones of a slacker mechanic (not vice versa) because "Engines make her hot!". Just like I can imagine her complaining about needing new D-cell batteries on their next visit to a general store (if you catch my meaning). That girl's as salty as chicken soup, and every bit as therapeutic.



Comfortable with her sexuality does not automatically equate "dropping the f-bomb" . Sorry, I just don't see it. Not that I can't see her being semi-crude ("You mean, sex!?" and the vibrator mention in "Serenity" come to mind), but "fuck" is such an ugly word, really, I can't imagine our dear, sweet, sexed-up Kaylee using it.

Put in another way, she's type I would imagine might "boink" or "do the horizontal Tango" or "play Bedsheet Bingo" or "dance the Mattress Mambo"... but is just not the type to "fuck". I especially don't see her, IMO, using it as an expletive. I just don't.

Mind you, I don't mean AT ALL using it. In extreme circumstances, I have no doubt even prim and proper Simon would use it.

By "dropping the f-bomb" I meant throwing it around left and right or in non-extreme circumstances, like I imagine Jayne might just do from time to time.

Again, I don't see Kaylee using it casually... and to me, "dropping" it like a metaphorical "bomb" means it comes out of nowhere, ie, casually.

Sorry if I did not make that clear; I did not realize that people would not take it to mean "casually dropping it into a conversation".

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:


I say if you're gonna cuss, grow a pair and cuss.


Sorry, I prefer not to use steroids. :P (Sorry, could not resist)


The great part about "grow a pair" is that it applies to either sex, and suggests maturing from a child to a reproductive age adult. Still, good to hear about your aversion to steroids, since they tend to shrink whatever pair you may be equipped with.



Mm, true. I was actually thinking of the effect (anabolic) steroids have on the female genitalia - namely, making it develop into a more penis-like structure. Naturally, the penis and testes are two seperate things, but the association between them is quite intimiate, and that's the reference I was trying (though apparently failing) to make. *shrug*

But of course, you are technically correct. The ovaries themselves would shrink.

Quote:


Quote:

...this occasionally means inventing slang ("shiny", anyone?) or curse words...

"Shiny, Happy People", REM, 1991 (featuring The B-52s' Kate Pierson). From http://www.songfacts.com/detail.php?id=1518 : "The title and chorus are based on a Chinese propaganda poster. The slogan "Shiny happy people holding hands" is used ironically - the song was released in 1991, 2 years after the Tiananmen Square uprising when the Chinese government clamped down on student demonstrators, killing hundreds of them. (thanks, Ali - Oxford, England)." So, there's your Chinese connection. I'm guessing that 'shiny' is a commonly used adjective in China, not invented for Firefly.



So... explain to me then why it's not in Chinese, as words and phrases such as go se are? :P

Sometimes the word "nice" is used in the same way "cool" is today. "Shiny" is associated with "nice" things. I always sort of assumed that was the tentative origin, other than Joss simply wanting to create another bit of special lingo for his 'verse.

Of course, it could easily be a combination of all of the above, you never know!

Quote:


Quote:


I try to save the really strong stuff, especially the "f-bomb" and "s-bomb" and "asshole", for when I "really need" it. In other words, for when I REALLY am pissed off. See, if you use them too much, they lose their power, but if you use them only when you REALLY mean it, they have several times the impact - somebody mentioned Mal's careful usage of curse words, for instance.


I try very hard never to say a curse or to swear when I'm mad at somebody. Saying "Fuck you!", let alone "G-D you" to a person because you're too mad at them to think of anything else to say? The very thought makes me queasy. No, I'm more of a happy-go-lucky, string-of-expletives, all-the-livelong-day kind of guy. My kids know they're in trouble when I stop cussing and start using precise language. Means I'm getting serious.



Point taken. But I know plenty of people (mostly teens) that use it so indiscriminately that there's almost no difference at all between the way they talk when they're speaking normally and when they speak angrily, except for tone of voice. And that's just plain stupid. (Non-specific) you need to discriminate one way or the other, dangit. Otherwise you just sound stupid and painfully poseur-ish, like you are trying to sound all badass 24/7 because you think it makes you seem "tough". (The inclusion of "non-specific" here is meant to denote usage of the "general you", of course, ie, not meanings specifically Zoid. )

Quote:


And my most reviled 'dirty word'? Hate. Parse it any way you want, there is no more destructive and evil a word, yet people use it all the time, and it just makes me cringe every time I hear it.



Haha, can't argue with that!


Quote:


Expletively,

zoid

P.S.
...And some people treat 'love' like a 4-letter word, too. Go figure.



I treat it like a red, red rose. As in, it's a beautiful thing, but with lots and lots of thorns you have to watch out for. :P Also, unless you're careful to preserve it, it doesn't last long.


~Emma


"I swallowed a bug"

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Tuesday, April 25, 2006 11:22 AM

DONCOAT


Great thread.

I'd have to say one of my favorite examples of Firefly-verse cussin' is "backbirth".

I'm not even sure exactly what it means -- perhaps a synonym of "afterbirth"? -- but I sure know I wouldn't like to be called one.

I wouldn't be at all surprised to hear Kaylee use the word 'fuck' when describing the act (or proposing it, as in "do ya wanna?"). I don't think she'd use it in everyday cussin', though, as in "f'n this" or "f'n that" or "f this f'n thing". I think she has too much respect for the word (and the act) to use it so casually.

I think it's odd that Kaylee took Simon to task for not cussin' enough, since she really doesn't do much of it herself. I'm having trouble thinking of even one example. Maybe Kaylee is just used to hearing a lot of swearing from the men in her world, making Simon's clean language stand out.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I don't disagree on any particular point.

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Tuesday, April 25, 2006 11:24 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC


Quote:

Originally posted by EmmaZule:
By "dropping the f-bomb" I meant throwing it around left and right or in non-extreme circumstances, like I imagine Jayne might just do from time to time.


I dislike it incredibly when people do that. Unless specifically talking about the word fuck, in which case the most sensible course is to use the word, it should be resaved for extreme circumstances otherwise it defeats the whole purpose of even having a set of profane words that people avoid like the plague.

The point of words like fuck is to demonstrate strong emotion in a way no other words can. The exist to be the most powerful words in the English language. They should be used only when appropriate (I side with Simon on that) because to use them more often is to make it so that there are no powerful words.

If you say, "Fuck," on any occasion you have nothing to say when something truly bad happens.

If you say fuck in regard to any form of sex you have nothing to describe the very far from love making type of sex that, with English such as it is today, can only be described as fucking.

To use the words when they are not appropriate is to make hobble your ability to be expressive.

-

To me the most offensive word I've ever encountered is, "feck," (when used as a substitute for fuck) because instead of being simply profane it is a word designed to say, "Look at me I just invented a word to point out that I'm going out of my way to offend you instead of simply swearing."

It's an intentional insult to whoever it is said to because the only reason it is ever said is if the speaker either thinks that what the mean is too offensive to say outright (or they want you to believe they think that) and that in spite of that they have chosen not only to say it, but to draw attention to the fact that it is something so bad as to be unspeakable.

God I hate that.

-

Anyway I'm more than somewhat annoyed at the degradation of profanity and I find the intent to offend more offensive than any word.

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