Joss is contraversial... by canadianjon

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Joss is contraversial...

POSTED BY: CANADIANJON
UPDATED: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 13:44
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VIEWED: 4408
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Friday, April 25, 2003 11:29 AM

Dont flame me (or do.. whatever)
I love firefly buffy and angel, my 3 favorite
shows, and so on.

But...
I am worried that Joss is going over the line,
and MANY people could get offended. I'm not really
offended personally, just shocked that this stuff
makes it onto TV, a show aimed at a younger audience.

The worst thing I've ever seen was the "snuff"
scene in Angel when they killed the girl to bring
Jasmine. It was more than a little messed up.
Also Caleb, is quite the sicko as well, especially
for easter weekend. My friend suggested that now
that the shows may be over, he can go "all out"
and show off his more depraved ideas. If he gets this reputation, It seems like it could only hurt the chances of seeing more firefly.

I also recommended firefly to a religious friend
and her first impression was Jubal saying he would rape Kaylee, saying she will die weeping.

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Friday, April 25, 2003 12:12 PM

SUCCATASH

Stories that "play it safe" are not very interesting.

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Friday, April 25, 2003 12:28 PM

SARAHETC

Would your friend rather watch Kaylee get threatened or Monica Lewinsky act as chaperone to a woman macking on men in masks?

Two points: Great art [should] always contain[s] a kernel of truth. Great art is often controversial.

From that can we extrapolate that great art, including well made scripted television shows are controversial because they contain a kernel of truth and often thematically resonate from that truthfulness? I think we can. The controversy, then, springs from one's identification with or interest in some facet of the perceived "wrong" act--murder, threat, rape.

Is that wrong, disgusting or immoral? Not in and of itself. It is human nature to be in equal parts fascinated and repulsed by what our societies, cultures and cultural memories tell us is primitive, savage and depraved.

If Firefly and its predecessors provide visual texts for people to explore those things then it is exactly as valuable as it is controversial.

Sarah

I'm a dying breed who still believes, haunted by American dreams. ---Neko Case

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Friday, April 25, 2003 12:49 PM

TALRIUS

But walking the contraversial path is dangerous. It can offend people into not watching the programs. To do the contraversial thing is to walk a fine line.

--------------------------------------------------
DOBSON: I'm supposed to be meeting my wife's sister. I've only got a few days to see her...

ZOE: I wish there was another way...

DOBSON: Oh, no, no. That woman is like a dragon. I mean, I believe she has a tail. If there's any other moons we need to visit, or if we could just
fly very slowly...

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Friday, April 25, 2003 12:55 PM

SUCCATASH

All controversial artists should be prepared to pose nude after enough people are pissed off at them.

Somehow, it makes the problem go away.

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Friday, April 25, 2003 12:57 PM

TALRIUS

But it might bring up a new topic to discuss.

--------------------------------------------------
DOBSON: I'm supposed to be meeting my wife's sister. I've only got a few days to see her...

ZOE: I wish there was another way...

DOBSON: Oh, no, no. That woman is like a dragon. I mean, I believe she has a tail. If there's any other moons we need to visit, or if we could just
fly very slowly...

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Friday, April 25, 2003 12:57 PM

SARAHETC

Quote:
Originally posted by Succatash:
All controversial artists should be prepared to pose nude after enough people are pissed off at them.

Somehow, it makes the problem go away.

Following this logic, we should get to see your naked hiney real soon now, Succatash, given the controversy of last weekend.

Sarah

I'm a dying breed who still believes, haunted by American dreams. ---Neko Case

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Friday, April 25, 2003 1:00 PM

TALRIUS

Um, I don't want to see Succatash's hiney, at all. Let's just says all is forgivin and hug- fully clothed.

--------------------------------------------------
DOBSON: I'm supposed to be meeting my wife's sister. I've only got a few days to see her...

ZOE: I wish there was another way...

DOBSON: Oh, no, no. That woman is like a dragon. I mean, I believe she has a tail. If there's any other moons we need to visit, or if we could just
fly very slowly...

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Friday, April 25, 2003 1:03 PM

SUCCATASH

LOL

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Friday, April 25, 2003 1:05 PM

SARAHETC

I'm just going to say this: I'm all about the hiney!

Succatash's hiney! Awwwww yeah!

Sarah

I'm a dying breed who still believes, haunted by American dreams. ---Neko Case

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Friday, April 25, 2003 1:33 PM

KAYTHRYN

I think Talrius and I agreed the other day that art, and nude male models were not appropriate fireflyfans.net conversation. But hell, I’ll always make an exception for Succatash’s tushy!

Okay, just saw your picture Succatash, and I've changed my mind. Now help me pick my jaw up off the floor.

-------------------------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
Aristotle

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Friday, April 25, 2003 1:53 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Without bad guys, without bad things - a tale goes nowhere.

Consider Hansel and Gretel, a tale we re-tell to children and have done so for generations.
And yet it contains the horrors of (intended)child-murder by a parent, dark arts, and even attempted cannibalism.

Anyone so easy to offend that they'd have their FICTION sanitised ??

That's plain flat ridiculous.

As far as 'religious folk' being offended by such things, most religious works contain horrors worse than you'd ever see on TV.

I guess it's a matter of taste, but the mere idea of having fiction sanitised is the most repulsive thing I have ever heard.

-Frem

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Friday, April 25, 2003 2:12 PM

SUCCATASH

My father is EXTREMELY religious but he loved the Serenity pilot. At the end, when Inara put her hand on Book's head, he burst out, "How interesting!"

He wants to see more episodes, he keeps bugging me to bring them over.

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Friday, April 25, 2003 4:06 PM

LERXST

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
As far as 'religious folk' being offended by such things, most religious works contain horrors worse than you'd ever see on TV.

Right on! From the folks that brought you the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, and the Salem Witch Trials.

Quote:
Originally posted by Succatash:
He wants to see more episodes, he keeps bugging me to bring them over

Watcha waitin' for? Hook him up!

_________________________________________________
Cap'n, can I have money for a slinky dress?

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Friday, April 25, 2003 6:45 PM

TALRIUS

Quote:
Originally posted by Lerxst:
Right on! From the folks that brought you the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, and the Salem Witch Trials.

Yep Christianity has gotten a bad rap from the atrocities commited by the Chatholic church.

--------------------------------------------------
DOBSON: I'm supposed to be meeting my wife's sister. I've only got a few days to see her...

ZOE: I wish there was another way...

DOBSON: Oh, no, no. That woman is like a dragon. I mean, I believe she has a tail. If there's any other moons we need to visit, or if we could just
fly very slowly...

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Friday, April 25, 2003 6:51 PM

SUCCATASH

I'm not Catholic, but I don't think they deserve that.

Back then, they were the ONLY church. No one else to blame.

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Friday, April 25, 2003 6:55 PM

SUCCATASH

What I mean is, today we have hundreds of religions/demoninations existing under the term "Christianity."

Back then, these people only had one name.

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Friday, April 25, 2003 7:00 PM

TALRIUS

They still did it none-the-less. I'm not saying the chatholics are the only ones to blame. Every religion in the world, past to present has buchered the other.

--------------------------------------------------
DOBSON: I'm supposed to be meeting my wife's sister. I've only got a few days to see her...

ZOE: I wish there was another way...

DOBSON: Oh, no, no. That woman is like a dragon. I mean, I believe she has a tail. If there's any other moons we need to visit, or if we could just
fly very slowly...

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Friday, April 25, 2003 7:04 PM

TALRIUS

Quote:
Originally posted by Succatash:
What I mean is, today we have hundreds of religions/demoninations existing under the term "Christianity."

Yep and each one of them claims to be the righteous one.

--------------------------------------------------
DOBSON: I'm supposed to be meeting my wife's sister. I've only got a few days to see her...

ZOE: I wish there was another way...

DOBSON: Oh, no, no. That woman is like a dragon. I mean, I believe she has a tail. If there's any other moons we need to visit, or if we could just
fly very slowly...

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Saturday, April 26, 2003 5:32 AM

ZELDA

Yes, Joss does cover some controversial ground, but one of the most interesting things (in the Buffyverse, at least - he seems to have been exploring something else w/Firefly) is that there are always consequences for people's actions. Some people do terrible things, some people experience terrible things, but there's always some sort of accountability - no one gets off scott free.

Faith is the most blindingly obvious example of this - particularly of how careful he is to draw the distinction between violence against demons and violence against evil humans, who are off-limits.

I guess what I'm getting at is that I do think Joss pushes television boundaries a bit, but never gratuitously - there's always a point/purpose behind it. The snuff scene in Angel was there to prove that Connor has become completely lost (and I fully expect consequences for that one - again, no one gets off free); I think Caleb is designed to explore the role of the evil of humanity, which is harder to fight than vamps, demons, etc.; and the bit with Jubal early was there to set up Summer's speech at the end about how he lies to himself, claiming that he doesn't like the violence when really that's what he craves.

Too much ranting w/o coffee - I'm out.

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Saturday, April 26, 2003 8:06 AM

HAPLO721

One needs look no further than the Bible to see that a good moral tale needs to include some bad stuff in it. Let's see, incest, rape, masturbation, human sacrifice, genocide, slavery, theft, blasphemy, murder, it's all there. Yet the Bible is considered a guideline to living a good life by many. Why? Because at no time is the bad stuff depicted as anything but what it really is. Joss's shows are the same way- nobody, no matter how good they are, ever gets away with a bad act in the end. Even on Firefly, where the protagonists are criminals, they try to follow a moral code of some sort (even Jayne won't betray his captain.) They resort to thievery and smuggling because their options are limited by an oppressive government that forcibly conquered them and refuses to hear their voices.

Early: You ever been raped, Kaylee?
Kaylee: You know, it's funny you should mention that... ever heard of the Fox network?

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Saturday, April 26, 2003 8:06 AM

HAPLO721

Gorram double-posts. There's a special level of hell reserved just for you.

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Sunday, April 27, 2003 11:06 AM

TALLGUY

Quote:
Originally posted by Talrius:
Quote:
Originally posted by Lerxst:
Right on! From the folks that brought you the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, and the Salem Witch Trials.

Yep Christianity has gotten a bad rap from the atrocities commited by the Chatholic church.

Interesting spelling...

The Salem Witch Trials were carried out by Puritans, NOT Catholics, thanks very much.

If you want to throw in the KKK (just for fun) they're supposedly Christian and VERY anti-Catholic. With much more recent atrocities.

As a Catholic I think it's interesting (and Joss is as big a perpetrator of this as anyone) that just about anytime folk on TV and movies want to say "Religious Leader" (for good or bad) they tend to go right for PRIEST. Hence we have Caleb. All of his writing seems to me to say Protestant Minister, but you GOTTA have that Roman collar, so now everyone thinks Priest. Thanks, Joss.

I read about the uproar over Caleb last weekend. I gotta admit when I saw Dirty Girls I was offended, upset, and maybe a tad outraged. (The Last Supper speech hit me right between the eyes.)

Then I realized. Caleb is the Bad Guy. He's SUPPOSED to outrage me. He's not the Bad Guy cause he's a preacher. He's the Bad Guy cause he's Caleb. Dressing up like a holy man is just one of the Bad Things the Bad Guy does. Just like The First dresses up like Buffy or Jenny or Jonathan. We’re SUPPOSED to be upset by something that nasty pretending to be something we consider good.

If Caleb had been a REAL preacher, THEN I'd have been ticked off. (Heck, the fact that it's our Beloved Captain Tightpants is bad enough!)

(Now, Buffy keeping communion wafers under her bed, that kinda rubs me a little the wrong way, but that's another topic...)

Bill
"We all know I'm the funny one."
"You ain't all that funny."

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Sunday, April 27, 2003 11:44 AM

TALRIUS

Quote:
Originally posted by TallGuy:
As a Catholic I think it's interesting (and Joss is as big a perpetrator of this as anyone) that just about anytime folk on TV and movies want to say "Religious Leader" (for good or bad) they tend to go right for PRIEST. Hence we have Caleb. All of his writing seems to me to say Protestant Minister, but you GOTTA have that Roman collar, so now everyone thinks Priest. Thanks, Joss.

It's because people can identify with the collor. Everyone knows what a Catholic priest looks like. Most other denominations' religious leaders are just clad in suits. Save for the Lutherns but that's only during service. It's like when they show black preachers, they're always shouting and sweaty. Not all black preachers are like this but it conveys the image that they want you to identify with.

Sorry about knocking your denomination if that's what it came out like.

--------------------------------------------------
DOBSON: I'm supposed to be meeting my wife's sister. I've only got a few days to see her...

ZOE: I wish there was another way...

DOBSON: Oh, no, no. That woman is like a dragon. I mean, I believe she has a tail. If there's any other moons we need to visit, or if we could just
fly very slowly...

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Tuesday, April 29, 2003 1:44 PM

PEDME84

when it comes to characters being depraved and scary, i think we need to remember that buffy and angel are spawns of the horror genre. it's supposed to be scary. if you take it out of the horror genre it's not what it is anymore.

you know how joss always says that buffy is "that blond girl" in the horror movie that runs into the alley way and gets killed? the rest of the story that he never tells you is this: in a horror movie you usually have a young girl as the main character, and she's called the "final girl" she's a prude, and tends to have a name that can be either a boy or girl's name. she always has a friend who's a blonde and kinda slutty. she always dies. sarah michelle gellar played this character in I Know What You Did Last Summer. That character is the exact same role as Buffy, but joss puts a twist on that and has the slutty blond (who in her case, ain't so slutty) fight back and kick ass. [you can now add this to your list of reasons why joss is so cool!

]

so buffy and angel are in their essence of the horror genre. depravity is required.

[40 thousand to nyu and this is what i got to show for it

here's hoping i actually get to use this stuff one day!]

- emily

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