GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Kaylee Video link

POSTED BY: MANIACNUMBERONE
UPDATED: Sunday, November 14, 2004 05:20
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 16830
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Saturday, April 19, 2003 3:20 AM

BONIBARU


Quote:

Originally posted by Succatash:
Or are you suggesting that there is a new law which will prevent me from sharing this "fan artwork" with my friends?



Nope, the old laws work just fine. As evidenced by the fact that your site is gone.

You might want to read over the TOS agreement from your webhost before you go posting music videos on your site.

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 3:23 AM

BONIBARU


Quote:


Granted, Nia can't come after you in any legal sense since she infringed on copyrights but I'm sure she would like at least credit for putting them together. The interviews though, that's a little stickier and fox probably won't like an open link to their copyrighted material.



Ah - but anyone can go to your ISP and tell them that you have a music video on your site, and the ISP will take it down. Nia doesn't have to be the one to do it. They can also then cancel your *entire* site, for violation of TOS agreement, and they don't have to refund your fees or anything like that. In other words, you're up the creek, no paddle.

And you're right about the Interviews. I can even give a specific example: a Witchblade fan site had copies of cast interviews up on their website, that were taken from the official network site. Her ISP received a C&D letter from the TNT lawyers and her entire site was removed because of those interviews.

THOSE are official files that belong to Fox. Fox is notorious for shutting down fan sites - just ask anyone from Buffy, X-Files fandoms that had experience with Fox back when those shows were popular. Check here: http://www.bringers.org.uk/ for lots more info.

Dozens of X-Files and Buffy sites have been pursued and shut down by Fox for not just videos, but fanfiction, wallpapers and graphics, screencaps, quotes, etc. They *have* to shut your site down if it comes to your attention. According to copyright law, if they don't defend their copyright, they lose the right to claim it. They're pretty good about not going out and looking for fan sites, but that doesn't mean they can ignore it if it's directly shown to them.

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 3:57 AM

HOPE


Well, Succatash, I can tell you that I'm one of those potential Firefly fans who is now not likely to watch because of your behavior. I have no doubt the majority of FF fans don't share your views, but it only takes one to make it dangerous to share fannish works.

Everybody agrees that TPB can take legal action at any time against fan fiction authors, fan vidders, fan artists, so it's up to the individual artist to weigh the legalrisks against the fannish benefits. If I put my work on my website and get C&Ded, oh well- that's my fault. If you take my work and put it on your website, which may or may not have the same passwords, structure or disclaimer, you've just decided that you have the right to put me in further legal jeopardy with or without my knowledge.

What happened to your site is exactly what happens to lots of fan sites- has nothing to do with betraying the fandom, has everything to do with the fact that you, too, were hosting files that have legal liability, a legal liability that you chose to assume when you posted the vids.

Quote:


Customers are prohibited from transmitting on or through any of MICROWORLD DOTCOM's services, any material that is, in MICROWORLD DOTCOM's sole discretion, unlawful, obscene, threatening, abusive, libelous, or hateful, or encourages conduct that would constitute a criminal offense, give rise to civil liability, or otherwise violate any local, state, national or international law.



That's from your TOS, that's why you got TOSed, and why vidders are really very careful about where and with whom they host their files. An object lesson for you, perhaps?


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Saturday, April 19, 2003 5:14 AM

MELYMBROSIA


Quote:

Originally posted by bonibaru:
They *have* to shut your site down if it comes to your attention. According to copyright law, if they don't defend their copyright, they lose the right to claim it. They're pretty good about not going out and looking for fan sites, but that doesn't mean they can ignore it if it's directly shown to them.



Point of pedantry: This is true of trademark, but not of copyright. Copyright remains whether or not any particular abuse of it is challenged, and copyright owners can still claim damages for one violation of copyright and not another.

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 5:38 AM

BRIGHID


Quote:

If Firefly fans want to make "art" because they like the show, that's really great. But that is all it is. It's great, and it helps grow the audience. That's what it is all about.


I've been following this all over the place, and you know, I don't usually dive in because I don't like the headache. And I'm not entirely sure there's a lot of listening going on here. But ...

I've enjoyed various forms of fandom, including FF, for about 18 years now. SF cons, clubs and online lists. It's fun. Neat people share stuff within the fandom community. When things go well, it's wonderful.

But ... you have to have a basic degree of respect for one another. It doesn't have to be all adoration and white-light, but *respect*. There are so many different views of what fandom is about, your claim above makes that clear, since yours is not one I would ever have thought of. Since it does hold such divergent views, the only way to assure its survival is by accepting what people's boundaries are, doing the whole "please, thank-you and you're welcome" thing. Listening when someone asks you to stop. No means no in fandom, just like it does everywhere else.

You see these people's creative works as a promotion of the show and you treat them as such. The people who made them feel differently. Since they made them, they're the ones whose opinions should count first. A for instance? Say you bordered your yard with a gorgeous garden. You spent time and money putting it together (even though someone else developed the species you used and you got your design ideas from a great book -- but, hey, you still put in the sweat equity and the love.) I, walking by, adore your flowers. And pick myself a helluva bouquet of them. Denude the front yard. And then leave.

You'd most likely feel a bit violated. You might think twice about the expense and effort of putting that garden together again. And you're whole neighbourhood is therefore drabber, drearier and no one is better off, not even me, because eventually picked flowers die.

That's what happens in fandom, too. If the people who contribute through archives, lists, writing, art or vidding feel like they're being treated badly ... they stop producing. They stop sharing. Sometimes they even leave fandom.

I know this because I've seen it happen.

So, you like the art that's emerging in FF fandom? Respect the artists. Respect their wishes. That's the only way to keep things of beauty and quality coming.


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Saturday, April 19, 2003 6:18 AM

BONIBARU


Maniac - I just wanted to say that I think you've handled this in a very responsible manner and you should be thanked for it.

So, thank you.

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 7:57 AM

SHINETHEWAY


Quote:

Originally posted by ManiacNumberOne:
I would highly disagree with you. Why make those great video's if not to share them. They are offering them for free on their own sites, so why would they not allow them to be mirrored? There could be a few possible reasons. Note: I don't subscribe to any of these beliefs - they are just possibilities. Reason one is they are not true fans. I don't believe that though, or they probably wouldn't have made them, huh? Second possible reason is that they possibly have something going on the side (with which they make money), on their website, and those free video's bring in needed traffic. If that were the reason, I would fully understand. Third possible reason they might not want me to mirror those video's on another site, (and this one's the worst of all) they didn't actually make them, and don't want to get caught saying they did on multiple websites--cause I would surely reference them as the video's source. Fourth reason, they are greedy with the video's they made and with the access rights to them. They want to get credit instead of sharing the joy of Firefly fandom with others. If that were the reason, I would say they are not true fans.

----------------------------------
Who's winning?
I can't really tell, they don't seem to be playing by any civilized rules that I know.
----------------------------------



I just wanted to comment on the idea of a "true fan," because I've been a fan for six years, I adore fandom, much of my life is oriented around it, and I don't think I've ever heard "true fan" used this way.

(I write, personally, so that's what much of my perspective is. All of this can be extended to include any sort of fannish-art producer, whether zines, vids, art, or anything else.)

Fen, when they produce stuff, do not leave themselves at the door. A writer, no matter how good she is, is a person; she isn't just A Writer, without feelings or thoughts or emotions. Writers have bad days, and good days, and emergencies with their kids, and candlelit dinners with their husbands, and car problems, and their leftovers go moldy just like everyone else. They're people. And, when they share stuff, they do so because they love their show, and they love the people around them, and for other reasons that are more personal. Sometimes they DON'T want to share, even--I've written fic for friends that I adamantly do not want public; I enjoyed writing them, but they were private and personal. But that doesn't mean that, once shared, writers forfeit all right over their stories, that their stories now belong to The Void. Writers aren't machines, and creativity doesn't go away just because it's now an internet file.

To be a "true fan" is to love your fandom. Period. Being a "true fan" has nothing to do with whether you are willing to grant blanket permission for every yahoo (not that you are, but some people in fandom are pretty looney-tunes) who wants to post stuff indiscriminately to do so. Personally, I post pretty freely--no passwords, very few "private" stories just between friends, on both my LJ and my website. And I would gut and skin anyone who showed my fanfic to the people who are my source-material. Ditto to people who stole my stories and posted them on their own website as unattributed or wrongly attributed. Being a "true fan" does not mean that you have to give up all claim to what you have worked so long and hard to create.

You mentioned a note on your site that all your files are public domain. I really don't think fan creations are public domain. Someone MADE that vid, spent hours or days or weeks working on it, fussed about the transition in 3:45, worried because they couldn't find the exact right footage for X lyric, or had three perfect shots for Y. Just because you don't know who it was, doesn't mean they don't exist.

The files may be on loan, but they are ultimately the property of their creator, unless they have been formally transferred over in some way (if someone gives away an icon, for instance). If someone said to you, "Happy Birthday! Here's a songvid, just for you," then I would consider you to have a stronger case to do whatever you want with that vid, as long as it isn't going to harm the vidder. And, as silviakundera has said, the plain fact is that if you don't respect people who produce, they tend to stop producing. No actor likes to play to a bad house, and there's nothing MAKING fan creators create.

Finally, your argument that any fan who is "greedy" and wants credit for their work is not a true fan is unfair to them--and to you. For instance, you run a website of which you are obviously proud. You've worked hard on it, doing coding and paying for bandwidth and locating and organizing the files for download. And now you work even harder, making sure that every single file there is properly attributed, contacting vidders and getting permission, and taking down files where permission is refused. I bet you spend hours at a time working on it, and you're justly proud when people thank you for it, using your name and directing their compliments to you. But how would it feel if suddenly, everyone was thanking me? I didn't make the site. I didn't put any work into it. But all of a sudden, everyone in the fandom is all "Thank you, Shine!" or "great new vid, Shine!" and I'm graciously accepting their praise, "oh, you're welcome, you're welcome, I do try," [makes best queenly gestures] and so on. All of your hard work, and none of it credited to you.

You'd be hurt, right? Upset. Pissed off. Frustrated. Something special to you has been taken away. And you'd still be a "true fan" feeling like that. It's not selfishness to want to keep your name attached to your work, it's simple human nature. You're still a "true fan" if you want people to know that, when they broke down crying, or cracked up laughing, or couldn't talk about anything else for three days, that it was YOU who did it.

I understand that you've contacted the vidder who made the vids, and that all of this is probably a bit moot. I'm not really trying to start anything, but I wanted to throw my two cents in, and try and explain in my own awkward way some of what other people have said (probably more eloquently). If you want to talk more, my email is shinetheway@fangirlz.net.

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 8:57 AM

ELKETANZER


Thank you for posting, ShineTheWay. It sounded eloquent to me.

Elke

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 9:41 AM

MANIACNUMBERONE


Quote:

Originally posted by bonibaru:
Quote:

Originally posted by ManiacNumberOne:
Reason one is they are not true fans. I don't believe that though, or they probably wouldn't have made them, huh? Second possible reason is that they possibly have something going on the side (with which they make money), on their website, and those free video's bring in needed traffic. If that were the reason, I would fully understand. Third possible reason they might not want me to mirror those video's on another site, (and this one's the worst of all) they didn't actually make them, and don't want to get caught saying they did on multiple websites--cause I would surely reference them as the video's source. Fourth reason, they are greedy with the video's they made and with the access rights to them. They want to get credit instead of sharing the joy of Firefly fandom with others. If that were the reason, I would say they are not true fans.



None of those reasons, at least for me.

First: It takes several weeks to make a music video - it's a long and -painstaking process. You don't throw one together in a few hours (not and have it be any good). So no person who is not a true fan is going to bother to take that time.

Second: making money off of a music video is vastly illegal and can land you not only with a C&D order, but under arrest and in jail. Any vidder that's making a profit off their videos is in deep deep trouble.

Third: Hey, this happens, but so far not frequently. And I can vouch for the fact that I made my vids, I have the dark circles under my eyes to prove it :)

Fourth: It's just common courtesy to ask first. Like your parents taught you: don't hit, share your toys, ask people before you do something with their stuff :) Just good netiquette.

I've found the majority of FF fans to be great people, kind, respectful. I'm pleased to see that at least you responded by trying to find the contact info to get in touch with the vidders. That's a refreshing change from that "other thread".




Thanks for reading the whole thread Try inserting this at the beginning like I did, and then leave me alone. "There could be a few possible reasons. Note: I don't subscribe to any of these beliefs - they are just possibilities."

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 9:44 AM

MANIACNUMBERONE


Quote:

Originally posted by bonibaru:
Quote:


Granted, Nia can't come after you in any legal sense since she infringed on copyrights but I'm sure she would like at least credit for putting them together. The interviews though, that's a little stickier and fox probably won't like an open link to their copyrighted material.



Ah - but anyone can go to your ISP and tell them that you have a music video on your site, and the ISP will take it down. Nia doesn't have to be the one to do it. They can also then cancel your *entire* site, for violation of TOS agreement, and they don't have to refund your fees or anything like that. In other words, you're up the creek, no paddle.

And you're right about the Interviews. I can even give a specific example: a Witchblade fan site had copies of cast interviews up on their website, that were taken from the official network site. Her ISP received a C&D letter from the TNT lawyers and her entire site was removed because of those interviews.

THOSE are official files that belong to Fox. Fox is notorious for shutting down fan sites - just ask anyone from Buffy, X-Files fandoms that had experience with Fox back when those shows were popular. Check here: http://www.bringers.org.uk/ for lots more info.

Dozens of X-Files and Buffy sites have been pursued and shut down by Fox for not just videos, but fanfiction, wallpapers and graphics, screencaps, quotes, etc. They *have* to shut your site down if it comes to your attention. According to copyright law, if they don't defend their copyright, they lose the right to claim it. They're pretty good about not going out and looking for fan sites, but that doesn't mean they can ignore it if it's directly shown to them.




As to this Succatash could have gone to Nia's site and done the same thing to her. You are being pretty hypocritical here, people. Step back and take a look at your own thievery before you accuse others.

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 9:46 AM

ELKETANZER


ManiacNumberOne, do you really want to start this up again? You've already gotten some recognition for being more rational that Succatash.

Elke

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 10:01 AM

MANIACNUMBERONE


Quote:

Originally posted by Shinetheway:
Quote:

Originally posted by ManiacNumberOne:
I would highly disagree with you. Why make those great video's if not to share them. They are offering them for free on their own sites, so why would they not allow them to be mirrored? There could be a few possible reasons. Note: I don't subscribe to any of these beliefs - they are just possibilities. Reason one is they are not true fans. I don't believe that though, or they probably wouldn't have made them, huh? Second possible reason is that they possibly have something going on the side (with which they make money), on their website, and those free video's bring in needed traffic. If that were the reason, I would fully understand. Third possible reason they might not want me to mirror those video's on another site, (and this one's the worst of all) they didn't actually make them, and don't want to get caught saying they did on multiple websites--cause I would surely reference them as the video's source. Fourth reason, they are greedy with the video's they made and with the access rights to them. They want to get credit instead of sharing the joy of Firefly fandom with others. If that were the reason, I would say they are not true fans.

----------------------------------
Who's winning?
I can't really tell, they don't seem to be playing by any civilized rules that I know.
----------------------------------



I just wanted to comment on the idea of a "true fan," because I've been a fan for six years, I adore fandom, much of my life is oriented around it, and I don't think I've ever heard "true fan" used this way.

(I write, personally, so that's what much of my perspective is. All of this can be extended to include any sort of fannish-art producer, whether zines, vids, art, or anything else.)

Fen, when they produce stuff, do not leave themselves at the door. A writer, no matter how good she is, is a person; she isn't just A Writer, without feelings or thoughts or emotions. Writers have bad days, and good days, and emergencies with their kids, and candlelit dinners with their husbands, and car problems, and their leftovers go moldy just like everyone else. They're people. And, when they share stuff, they do so because they love their show, and they love the people around them, and for other reasons that are more personal. Sometimes they DON'T want to share, even--I've written fic for friends that I adamantly do not want public; I enjoyed writing them, but they were private and personal. But that doesn't mean that, once shared, writers forfeit all right over their stories, that their stories now belong to The Void. Writers aren't machines, and creativity doesn't go away just because it's now an internet file.

To be a "true fan" is to love your fandom. Period. Being a "true fan" has nothing to do with whether you are willing to grant blanket permission for every yahoo (not that you are, but some people in fandom are pretty looney-tunes) who wants to post stuff indiscriminately to do so. Personally, I post pretty freely--no passwords, very few "private" stories just between friends, on both my LJ and my website. And I would gut and skin anyone who showed my fanfic to the people who are my source-material. Ditto to people who stole my stories and posted them on their own website as unattributed or wrongly attributed. Being a "true fan" does not mean that you have to give up all claim to what you have worked so long and hard to create.

You mentioned a note on your site that all your files are public domain. I really don't think fan creations are public domain. Someone MADE that vid, spent hours or days or weeks working on it, fussed about the transition in 3:45, worried because they couldn't find the exact right footage for X lyric, or had three perfect shots for Y. Just because you don't know who it was, doesn't mean they don't exist.

The files may be on loan, but they are ultimately the property of their creator, unless they have been formally transferred over in some way (if someone gives away an icon, for instance). If someone said to you, "Happy Birthday! Here's a songvid, just for you," then I would consider you to have a stronger case to do whatever you want with that vid, as long as it isn't going to harm the vidder. And, as silviakundera has said, the plain fact is that if you don't respect people who produce, they tend to stop producing. No actor likes to play to a bad house, and there's nothing MAKING fan creators create.

Finally, your argument that any fan who is "greedy" and wants credit for their work is not a true fan is unfair to them--and to you. For instance, you run a website of which you are obviously proud. You've worked hard on it, doing coding and paying for bandwidth and locating and organizing the files for download. And now you work even harder, making sure that every single file there is properly attributed, contacting vidders and getting permission, and taking down files where permission is refused. I bet you spend hours at a time working on it, and you're justly proud when people thank you for it, using your name and directing their compliments to you. But how would it feel if suddenly, everyone was thanking me? I didn't make the site. I didn't put any work into it. But all of a sudden, everyone in the fandom is all "Thank you, Shine!" or "great new vid, Shine!" and I'm graciously accepting their praise, "oh, you're welcome, you're welcome, I do try," [makes best queenly gestures] and so on. All of your hard work, and none of it credited to you.

You'd be hurt, right? Upset. Pissed off. Frustrated. Something special to you has been taken away. And you'd still be a "true fan" feeling like that. It's not selfishness to want to keep your name attached to your work, it's simple human nature. You're still a "true fan" if you want people to know that, when they broke down crying, or cracked up laughing, or couldn't talk about anything else for three days, that it was YOU who did it.

I understand that you've contacted the vidder who made the vids, and that all of this is probably a bit moot. I'm not really trying to start anything, but I wanted to throw my two cents in, and try and explain in my own awkward way some of what other people have said (probably more eloquently). If you want to talk more, my email is shinetheway@fangirlz.net.




What interesting points you make shine. I am sorry you misunderstood.

first off, I am not talking about fan fiction. So there goes 90% of what you wrote. Second, I was NOT referring to why someone (in general)is not a true fan. I was and AM referring to someone who creates something in the format Nia did, and in the way she did. And more specifically why someone in her situation would not want to share with others.

You can talk all day about the content being hers to do with as she wishes, but the fact of thew matter is that she DOES NOT own the material she used to make that vid. If she DID, then all of the above things you say would get no argument from me. (are you following me, or just getting ready to ignore this again?)

As to my little Firefly devotion page, thanks for thinking it was nice. You are right I wouldn't want others taking credit for it. Nor would I want them to turn it off. Just like I bet Nia is thinking. How do you she would like it if Succatash told her ISP that she is hosting stolen material on her site? Because make no mistake, she is. The main reason I can see why her name wasn't on that river video in the first place is because she didn't want this kind of litigation....so why is she giving it to others?

Is it like this in your mind?:

First there was nothing...
....then there was Nia.
Nia creates the universe with pure will!
From utter nothingness comes swirling form!!
Life begins where once was void!!
But Nia is no kind and loving God. She's one of the old Gods!! She demand sacrifice!!!
Yes, Nia is a God of the underworld!!
And the puny inhabitants of Firefly fandom displease her!! The great Nia ignores pleas for mercy and the doomed writhe in agony!!

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 10:30 AM

ELKETANZER


Oh, now you're just silly, ManiacNumberOne. If you can't reason logically, you bring God into it. Or gods, whichever works for you.

There is no difference between the various forms of fannish expression. Drawings, writings, sculptures, songvids, filks... they are the same when it comes to courtesy and respect for the fan who created them.

I do not understand how such an incredibly simple concept as "if it was made by someone else, ask before you do anything with it" is difficult for both ManiacNumberOne and Succatash to comprehend.

Why anyone would consider posting publically any of their fannish work in any format at all after all this?

It's really this simple (and yes, I've said this before, worded differently, but apparently it confused you):

1. Fannish creators should be respected for creating their work, and their wishes regarding its distribution heeded.

2. The reason for this is that all fannish activity is in the muddy grey waters of trademark, copyright, and intellectual property law.

No one needs to be on a god-pedestal to be granted basic respect.

Elke

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 10:34 AM

BONIBARU


Maniac, I wasn't so much replying to you personally as I was quoting your comments in order to offer an explanation, since some people might have had the same thoughts that you were having.

Sigh. Earlier I wrote a post thanking you for handing this with such grace all the way through. Now I think I should take that back. I'm sorry you feel that you have to take posts about an *issue* as a personal attack on *you*.

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 10:37 AM

MANIACNUMBERONE


"I do not understand how such an incredibly simple concept as "if it was made by someone else, ask before you do anything with it" is difficult for both ManiacNumberOne and Succatash to comprehend."

--This is easy to comprehend, and believe it or not, we respect this issue more than you do. You all need to take the issue up one step further. Ask Joss Whedon, Ask Fox, Ask Mutant Enemy. Until you do, you have not got the rights you speak of, you are one of the thieves. So jump off your incredibly high horse.

If you don't address that point in your next post, please don't post at all. Thank you.

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 10:40 AM

SHINETHEWAY


If you feel I misunderstood, I apologize. I tried to read your original post very carefully, and not make assumptions. I'll try and explain myself more clearly in the future.

First, I used fanfiction as the example that I am most familiar with. However, any fan-created art is going to fall under the same set of guidelines. Artists, computer-graphic manippers, vidders, writers, zine editors, and anyone else who produces a piece of artwork that is derivative from an outside source, all have roughly the same system in their creation process, though the final product will vary. All of them adopt (or "poach," if you've read Textual Poachers by Henry Jenkins) materials, interpret them, modify them, personalize them to the audience, and re-release them.

I think where the two of us are diverging is our interpretation of ownership. Both of us agree that Nia (or any vidder) does not own the source material she used for her art. But I feel that the final product she produced--in this case, a vid--is completely hers. It would not exist had she not made it. It's similar to a cook being able to write and copyright a recipe, but the ingrediants of that recipe are free for all to use.

Regarding Nia and River, you ask why she "was giving it to others" if she's so concerned about litigation. It could be argued that she DIDN'T want it shared, and that your public posting of it was against her wishes. (A side note: you also asked why she didn't provide identification in the vid, and theorized that it was to avoid lawsuits. I believe she already answered that question, and said she couldn't include identification because her vidding software at the time wouldn't allow it.)

"Nor would I want them to turn it off. Just like I bet Nia is thinking."

I'm sorry, I didn't understand what you meant. Do you think you could elaborate?

Finally, regarding this:

[First there was nothing...
....then there was Nia.
Nia creates the universe with pure will!
From utter nothingness comes swirling form!!
Life begins where once was void!!
But Nia is no kind and loving God. She's one of the old Gods!! She demand sacrifice!!!
Yes, Nia is a God of the underworld!!
And the puny inhabitants of Firefly fandom displease her!! The great Nia ignores pleas for mercy and the doomed writhe in agony!!]

...right. Now, I don't know Nia, but I don't think this is exactly a nice thing to write about ANYONE. For one thing, it's incredibly rude and disrespectful--forget Nia-the-vidder, this is bashing Nia-the-person. For another, it almost totally misses the point. (By the way, if you bash people in public by calling them a god of the underworld, they tend not to let you mirror their vids on your site in the future. Just a thought.)

Artists create. They create using materials. Art doesn't come from nothing; it requires Things. The Art of art comes from using those Things in a new, special way. What the materials are changes from style to style--writers use language, painters use paint and canvas, architects use steel, vidders use footage, knitters use yarn, etc. And in some cases, the materials being used aren't tangible--words, for instance, or music. But they do exist.

The type of materials used does not necessarily invalidate the art that is produced. Incredibly powerful pieces of art have been produced using blood and cabbages and papier-mache. Rock and roll does not use instruments that are found in your average symphony, but rock is still an art medium. Vidding does not become less of an art form because the source material of the art is footage. Nia is an artist because very few can duplicate what she does, and no one can REPLICATE what she does. She has her own style, and the vids she produces are going to differ from anyone else's vids--even if they use the same song and the same set of episodes as a source.

Just like Rembrant took paint and canvas--items that have no intrinsic artistic value--and created masterpieces, Nia took footage and created vids. It's all about CREATION.

And when she gives it to a person or a fandom, it's exactly that--a gift. And the appropriate response to a gift is "Thank you". I don't think it has anything to do with kind and loving gods or underworld gods or writhing in agony or the whole rest of that rather ridiculous metaphor. If she shares a vid, it's only polite and appropriate and gosh-darn-it NICE to say "Thanks".

I saw people thanking you for putting these vids up. Don't you think she deserves thanks for creating them? It has nothing to do with her therefore ruling the fandom, or whatever you were trying to suggest. It's simply common courtesy.

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 10:41 AM

BONIBARU


Quote:

Originally posted by bonibaru:
Maniac - I just wanted to say that I think you've handled this in a very responsible manner and you should be thanked for it.

So, thank you.



I TAKE IT BACK.

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 10:47 AM

MANIACNUMBERONE


Quote:

Originally posted by bonibaru:
Maniac, I wasn't so much replying to you personally as I was quoting your comments in order to offer an explanation, since some people might have had the same thoughts that you were having.

Sigh. Earlier I wrote a post thanking you for handing this with such grace all the way through. Now I think I should take that back. I'm sorry you feel that you have to take posts about an *issue* as a personal attack on *you*.



Hey when you do not quote what I said fully, I felt I had to put into place that what you quoted me as saying was incomplete. Do you think I want people believing that those "reasons" I gave were actual things I believed? I needed to defend myself by putting in the disclaimer you forgot to-- namely that I didn't believe that the possible reasons I was putting down were true, only that they were possibilities. And I did notice you defending me, and I appreciated it. Because I felt that even though I did do everything right along the way I got dissed on pretty bad.

Here's how it went down:

I found a great vid.
A few weeks later I saw someone wanted it on the taglog.
I posted saying I had it and would be happy to share, *(as it was unlabelled to creator).
I posted it on my site.
I was told (very rudely I might add) that I should ask for permission or take it down.
I responded (politely) that I didn't have the info or I would contacted the creator, and I asked if someone knew the creator.
I was given the info.
I contacted the person.
While waiting for persmission, the discussion of the true fan ensued.
LJC decided to take it upon herself to report me to Nia. (apparently not believing that I would follow my word)
LJC and Nia must have exchanged words to which I am not privy.
I was denied by Nia.
I took the gorram thing off my site.
this other set of ridiculous arguments started.
no one has payed much attention to what other people have written.
I have summed up.
this will probably not be read either.

----------------------------------
Who's winning?
I can't really tell, they don't seem to be playing by any civilized rules that I know.
----------------------------------

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 10:55 AM

PHILOMEL


Um, maybe I'm being silly too, but perhaps it would be a good idea if everyone took a deep breath--and maybe waited a day or counted to ten or something--before continuing to post in this thread, because its looking pretty scary, with all the insults and whatnot being thrown around.

Maniac put up the material without knowing, and when his attention was drawn to the artists' wishes, he took it down. And y'know what? He doesn't have to agree with or understand the reasoning of the artist, or with any of us--just like the artist doesn't have to agree with him. He did the right thing anyway. All kinds of words were exchanged, but let's leave it at that.

At this point, if you ask me, this specific issue is dead, folks. Everything that's needed to be said has been said. The material has been removed from both sites. If ya wanna discuss etiquette and fan-related works generally, great, discuss, but sitting around firing off quick insults at each other is like taking the scenic route to the corner of No and Where.

And it's frightening the women.

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 11:12 AM

KAYTHRYN


Manic,
What you did makes sense, and it’s probably what I would of done if I found a great unlabeled vid ( if I knew how to do web page stuff). It sounds like people just haven’t gotten the whole story (the fact that after the problem was brought to your attention you contacted Nia)-- only little bits and pieces at a time and have started making assumptions too quickly.

I don’t really see what it matters anyway. Why do you other people care so much? It’s really between Manic and Nia. If Manic had taken “your” work, then you should be arguing with him personally, perhaps though e-mails and not on this board.

Dang it Philomel,
Quote:

Posted by Philomel:
Um, maybe I'm being silly too, but perhaps it would be a good idea if everyone took a deep breath--and maybe waited a day or counted to ten or something--before continuing to post in this thread, because its looking pretty scary, with all the insults and whatnot being thrown around.

Maniac put up the material without knowing, and when his attention was drawn to the artists' wishes, he took it down. And y'know what? He doesn't have to agree with or understand the reasoning of the artist, or with any of us--just like the artist doesn't have to agree with him. He did the right thing anyway. All kinds of words were exchanged, but let's leave it at that.

At this point, if you ask me, this specific issue is dead, folks. Everything that's needed to be said has been said. The material has been removed from both sites. If ya wanna discuss etiquette and fan-related works generally, great, discuss, but sitting around firing off quick insults at each other is like taking the scenic route to the corner of No and Where.

And it's frightening the women.




You took the words right out of my mouth-- and I was on a roll too.

*Waving peace symbol and lighter while chanting*
“Make love, not war!"



-------------------------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
Aristotle

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 11:16 AM

BONIBARU


Quote:

Originally posted by ManiacNumberOne:
Quote:


I was denied by Nia.



Nia's taken down her entire site, and so have I, and so has Debchan, and so have the other FF vidders that I know. I have a new FF vid I'm not going to release, and so does Silvia, and so does Shelia, and three other vidders who had vids in progress have stopped working on their vids due in part to what has happened here and what happened on the TWoP board with our vids being burned to CD and distributed without our prior knowledge. Just thinking about it makes my stomach hurt. I'm extremely upset. When I think about posting my new vid, my stomach hurts even more. I'm going to share it with a few friends, and that's it. I have lost my ability to trust people in the fandom that I don't already know very well.

Here's the thing.

Fandom is a community just like the real world. There are things that are, and are not, considered (by most) to be socially acceptable. Common sense and respect are always, always, the best things to use when dealing with other fans. We've all gotten pretty angry over the last couple of days and that's a very sad thing to have happen in such a normally tight-knit community of fans. We all LOVE the show. We've stuck together through some rough times. That doesn't mean we are all going to agree, or get along all the time. But we should try to treat each other with at least a modicum of respect.

Underneath the screen names of Nia, Elke, Bonibaru, Maniac, etc - we are real people with real feelings. We are not just words on a computer screen. We are not just clips set to music. I don't have any obligation to share my "Hallelujah" vid. I did so because I loved the show and I thought that other fans who loved the show would enjoy seeing the vid as an expression of that love for the show.

I am very careful to keep my website, where the vids are posted, out of the eyes of the powers-that-be of the shows I vid to. I go to extra measures to do this, to keep it off of search engines, etc. I am also careful to keep it out of the eyes of the recording artists - you know, the people who shut down Napster - because honestly, I'd be even more worried about getting a nasty legal notice from the guy who's song I used without permission, whether I have disclaimers all over the place or not. Your website is not necessarily as well protected as Nia's, which may be why she does not want you to post the vid there. I don't really feel that's unreasonable for her.

The entire point of being in a fandom community is: we share with each other. We share stories, screen caps, transcripts, thoughts, etc etc because we WANT to. Not respecting the wishes of the people producing these fannish works of art - who invest our time, money, energy, enthusiasm, into this, does not make us want to share. Exposing us to potential legal action, threatening us, implying that we lose any right to say what happens to our work and where it goes once we put it on the internet, does not make them want to keep sharing.

I have felt really betrayed by not only what's happened over the last couple of days regarding mine and others' vids, but by the attitude that I've seen in some of the FF fans - that I don't have a right to request that my vid not be put online anywhere but my site, that it not be brought to the attention of TPTB, etc. The idea that everyone else is ENTITLED to take it and do what they want with it. That is hurtful to me and I feel betrayed by the Firefly fans. I think Nia probably has too. What you did, you did out of ignorance, that's true (and I don't mean that as an insult e.g. "you're ignorant", I mean it as "you didn't know not to". I understand that.

But when a person resorts to name calling and personal insults, that person loses credibility. When fellow fans start dictating to me that I have no rights over the artwork I have worked very hard to make, and should not expect to be treated with respect and courtesy, it is devastating.

People judge the FF fandom on the behavior of its fans toward each other. Right now to an outsider, FF doesn't look like a very nice fandom to be in, because some very vocal fans don't respect others. That's probably the saddest thing of all.

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 11:17 AM

DEBCHAN


I think the time has passed for taking a deep breath and turning the other cheek. Someone has reported Nia to her ISP. I can only assume this was in revenge.

My vids, screen captures and Firefly media files (like the Good Morning Live segement and the one fron TechTV) are gone from my domain and will NEVER come back. The other Firefly vids I'm working on will never be released. I know several other vidders who are removing their vids from their sites even as we speak. I know of at least two other vidders who will never release the Firefly vids they've made.

Good job, guys. Congrats on making Firefly fandom a place where no one feels safe.

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 12:29 PM

BKTHEIRREGULAR


This must be what the start of a war feels like.

Should people with fanfiction sites also worry?

Bruce (BK) (the irregular)

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 12:30 PM

KAYTHRYN


Quote:

Posted by Debchan:
I notice this site has all sorts of copyright material on it; screen captures, scripts, and video files. Does the site owner have permission from Mutant Enemy and Fox?


Oh, don’t go there.

Boy, this is blown out of proportion. I hope everyone argues as passionately for a solution to end world hunger as they do to make sure someone gets proper credit or not or whatever for fan vids.

And Elketanzer honey, I just got your e-mail. Thanks for keeping it off the message board, but I can’t find an e-mail to write you back, so being my hypocritical self, I’m writing you back on the message board. No I wasn’t offended by your message in the least, but I’ve got a whole long bit to say, so if you give me your e-mail address, I’d love to continue this conversation. Here’s my e-mail- abbynormalartist@yahoo.com.


-------------------------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
Aristotle

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 12:46 PM

SARAHETC


Quote:

Originally posted by ManiacNumberOne:
[BHere's how it went down:

I found a great vid.
A few weeks later I saw someone wanted it on the taglog.
I posted saying I had it and would be happy to share, *(as it was unlabelled to creator).
I posted it on my site.



This is me. And most of me wants to take credit for this whole damn debacle for even asking to see one in the first place.

I'm sorry. Great big kowtowing apologies to every actual vidder who now refuses to post any more vids. I only ever got to see 4 and they were all shiny. I regret that I won't be able to see more. If I could change it--even by gettin' all bendy-- I would.

Great big kowtowing apologies to my men, Maniac and Succatash for starting y'all down this trail. And maybe for not piping up sooner. Though I really don't think my opinion is worth anything. But I was the one who asked to see vids and now here we are.

That said: everybody, with the exception of Phil and Kaythryn, is taking themselves way too seriously. I understand that there are legal issues. Yes. Let the fandom (I'm actually starting to think of them as fan-cliques: flicks) not become embroiled in legal issues. Otherwise, all y'all calm down.

Again, apolgies. Won't happen again, Sir.

Sarah

I'm a dying breed who still believes, haunted by American dreams. ---Neko Case

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Tuesday, April 22, 2003 12:04 PM

BLUEHOOT


This is just a general response.

If anyone is not familiar with what can happen with someone defending their copywright and trademarks in fandom, I suggest researching the Pern fandom. Anne McCaffrey is the author of the Dragonriders of Pern series. She and her legal advisors have very very actively defended their copywrights and trademarks. They even sold all gaming rights to another company, which includes informal RPs and if you dont follow their rules, they will shut you down. Theres lots of info floating around on the net pertaining to this. some of it is at www.burnedforfandom.org

With that in mind, I have been known to borrow some screencaps and whatnot to create other things (and if you dont already know what these other things are and want specifics, email me). I do not claim ownership to any of these 'things' and I do credit (when I know who to credit) the rightful owners of such parent material, no matter what the finished result is. Like I always credit Fox et al and Mutant Enemy for any screencaps. I still take that risk of getting my site shut down.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I wish I was a jellyfish because jellyfish dont pay rent.

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Friday, November 12, 2004 2:37 PM

VAMPIRESLAYER




Quote:

None of those reasons, at least for me.

First: It takes several weeks to make a music video - it's a long and -painstaking process. You don't throw one together in a few hours (not and have it be any good). So no person who is not a true fan is going to bother to take that time.



I don't think that's true. I've been a fan of BtVS and Joss Whedon since 1999, although I never watched Firefly(but I heard good things about it). Guess I should've, huh?
I've never made a fanvid, but I do enjoy them and not having made one does not make me any less of a fan than you or anyone else. In fact, most people that I know have told me that I'm absessed with BtVS and Angel. They're not wrong. Basically, what I'm trying to say is, you can be a "true fan" of something without ever writing a bit of fanfic or ever making a vid about it. For example, I consider myself a true fan of Anne McCaffrey's Dragonriders of Pern series, but, per her request, I don't write and post fanfic about her books(outside of already-sanctioned clubs). So I don't appreciate the insinuation(no wait-blatant statement) that just because someone has no interest in making vids or lacks the ability and/or software to do so, means that they are not a true fan.





Buffy: "One more word out of you, and I swear..."
Spike: "Swear what? You're not gonna do anything to me. You don't have the stones."
Buffy: "Oh, I've got the stones. I've got a whole bunch of...stones."
Spike: "Yeah? You're all talk."
Buffy: "Giles! I accidentally killed Spike! That's ok, right?"

Buffy and Spike argue in "Something Blue"

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Sunday, November 14, 2004 5:13 AM

GWENHARKER


My friend had made some fan videos for Buffy (and anyone who's been in Buffy fandom knows that if Fox finds you out, they will hunt you down). She had let others mirror/put up some of her videos and when FOX sent a cease and desist order to her, she complied and shut down her site.

When the leagel beagles went to make sure, they tagged the sites that had mirrored videos and she had to go to court because they thought that she had gotten other people to host her things.

So that's why it's good to ask those who make videos to host them. If they say no, you understand. Not only that, but people also like traffic to their websites. Just food for thought. Glad that everything seems to be clearing up.

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Sunday, November 14, 2004 5:20 AM

GWENHARKER


A standard disclaimer is usually fine. Joss Loves Fanfiction (he's said so in severel interviews) so you're okay.

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