GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

River. Answers!!!

POSTED BY: 25MYTURN25
UPDATED: Thursday, January 14, 2010 12:22
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Thursday, February 2, 2006 12:42 PM

SPOOTER


Quote:

Originally posted by asarian:
Hi 25myturn25,

Very pleased to meet you. Any friend of River is a friend of mine. :)

River, as you know by now, was never on Miranda. In fact, what happened at Miranda happened several years ago. We know this, because Kaylee suddenly remembers the name (after the Maidenhead fight):

Kaylee: Wait a tick; yeah. Some years back there was a call for workers to settle on Miranda.

The mishap with the "pax" (G-23 Paxilon Hydrochlorate) is the big secret the Allience is afraid River knows (a rather cute name for their 'pacifier', as 'pax', of course, is Latin for 'peace'). And why are they afraid River knows? The Operative lays it all out:

Operative: Do you know what your sin is, Doctor? ... It's Pride.
(Operative shows recording of Dr. Mathias saying to Simon)
Dr. Mathias: Key members of Parliament have personally observed this subject.
(Operative pauses recording)
Operative: "Key members of Parliament." ... Key. The minds behind every diplomatic and covert operation in the galaxy. And you put them in a room with a psychic!

Later, after River woke up from the effects of the safe phrase, she hints to knowing things that are not hers:

River: The memory. It isn't mine. And I shouldn't have to carry it. It isn't mine.

As for "Copper for a kiss", I think it really means: a penny for your thought. As in: "I'd really like to know what you're thinking." I think River is, in fact, referring to Jayne's betrayal, but in a more subtle way than the whole Judas' thing. It's more like a tease; like: "Hmm, wouldn't it be interesting to know what you're thinking?" Like psyching Jayne out. Only River really knows what she meant, of course. :)

"Stupid SOB, dress me up like a Gorram Doll!"

This is an interesting one. :) I do not have the official script (as I am shamefully new to this myself, actually); but maybe she's saying:

"Dress me up like a Gorham doll!"

As Gorham dolls are rare, collectible child dolls. Although "gorram" really does fit the scene better (wasn't she cussing in Chinese, thereafter?). We need an expert in here. Unless there's already an official script proving me wrong; nah mei guan-shee.

P.S. Okay, novacane is wearing off (had an early dental appointment). Time to go to sleep again. :)

"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam.



I think the line "dressed me up like a goram doll" is a reference to the fact that Simon has her in a dress and somewhat "fancy", and she doesn't like it....that was how I took it anyway.

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Thursday, February 2, 2006 2:54 PM

ASARIAN


Quote:

I think the line "dressed me up like a goram doll" is a reference to the fact that Simon has her in a dress and somewhat "fancy", and she doesn't like it....that was how I took it anyway.


I hear ya; and I agree. :) Question still remains then: did she mean 'Gorham' doll? Or really 'gorram' doll?

"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam.

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Thursday, February 2, 2006 4:59 PM

DC4BS



I dunno.

I gotta side with the bible refrence betrayal of Jesus for the "Copper for a kiss" line.

The very next word in the script is "Jesu--!" exclaimed by Judas himself (Jayne).

From the Ariel script at:
http://www.twiztv.com/scripts/firefly/season1/firefly-108.htm

RIVER: A copper for a kiss.
(Jayne jumps -- she startled the hell out of him.)
JAYNE: Jesu--! What -- what did you say?

The context definately leads me to think that is the correct refrence.


------------------------------------------
dc4bs

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Thursday, February 2, 2006 8:25 PM

SEADOG


Time Bandits. Great movie.

Ever been with a warrior woman?

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Wednesday, April 23, 2008 8:02 AM

ANOTHERSKY



NOTE: LONG POST
I didn't know where to put all this. Mostly I agree with what's been said but there are a few places I combine or differ. Under each heading I explain why. If I'm factually wrong, please correct me.

MIRANDA

Serenity is really when we get to see the "Miranda" flashbacks. At the beginning of the movie (flashback parts), after Simon rescues River and they join the ship (hence "prior" to the series 'firefly') we see flashbacks of River as a child, presumably 'at' 'The Academy' on 'Miranda'. She did go to the Academy, but it wasn't on Miranda.

What happened was (if any of you frequently remember your nightmares you already know):

Because River learned about Miranda, in a horrifying direct mental experience at the Academy, they both become melded together (this fits with Simon's amygdala theory in 'Ariel', about not being able to filter any emotional current).
Later we see her in her metal-plated lab suit walking through the empty classroom, and I think it's pretty clear.

[Her line in her 'flashback', when the teacher interrupts her fiddling during their 'world alliance discussion' {lol, River has ADD} and River says " We're in their homes..(...).and in their minds. And we haven't the right." It's not just a dissident political opinion when interpreted this way.
She's referring to herself. The Alliance is in her mind, taking away her childhood, her memories of home, her concept of herself as a being, as separate from the Alliance and what they've done to her(besides the horrible experiments themselves).
But, going back to why the secret of Miranda is even more horrifying to her confused mind: as she is an 'agent' now of the Alliance, she is ***partly responsible for the events on Miranda***. In her 'dream' she was going to the Academy, being forced to learn all this--all jumbled up in the training, whatever they were experimenting on her for.

The reason for her mind just 'shutting off' sometimes---the swearing strings, the blank stares, the refusal to communicate even in metaphors---always seem to happen when someone she is emotionally attatched to (Mal, Simon, Kaylee) is around and not 'protecting' her.



COPPER FOR A KISS
There are constant ancient greek references around Simon--his field of logic, medicine etc.
So I think the coin in mouth has some vaidity.

I think, if I'm allowed to, that if not literary (I thought that too!), It's a mix of
Depening on the level/depth of Joss Whedon's knowledge of several sources, it could mix:


1.) The Jesus Reference ( it was 30 pieces of silver, not copper, then,) just like Jayne who once caught by the feds, tried to go back on his plan. Judas threw his payment back at the feet of Jesus' accusers later on that night. But he comes to a bad end: he bought a field with the money and committed suicide there.
Apt metaphor, if this was intended.


2.) The coin in the mouths of children. This is really good, Rhiyanan. The fact that they are in morgue cases (coffins), and "wake up" from being 'dead'---helpless and innocent (like children) at the hands of Jayne
(WHAT WAS MAL THINKING? LEAVE JAYNE WITH THEM IN THE SAME EPISODE? WHY JAYNE?)
who was about to be really dispicable and sell them out. River knows their death warrants (or something worse) have been signed when she wakes up #1 in a central planet hospital morgue=do not want and #2, the first (and only) person in sight is ol' Jayne.

In it's form and pronunciation by River it recalls the episode with Badger(before or after), where she creates the cockney-dialect diversion for them, and placates Badger from being a lot more harsh. She's the 'poor guttersnipe' who knows they're doin her wrong, but can't do anything about it.


3.)Another possible biblical reference: One of Jesus' parables talks about an old widow who puts in the collection plate for the poor her last two copper coins, as an example of true generosity and sacrifice for the Lord. The amount is not 'less' because it is 'all she has'. So, relating to this is point 4.). Might be mixed in with Christmas in the jumble of her mind. Her "joke" thought process goes:
"I'll give up all I have so you can have the the fleeting pleasure (taking Christmas away) of you believing you'll triumph before you pointlessly get nailed too? That's funny. (she does laugh here)"




The sexual reference that people have skimmed but oddly not hit directly, due to 'shipper' blindness. River could mean, metaphorically and sarcastically (but that innocent bland way she uses to shame him)If Jayne gives her a copper, she'll give him a kiss. Jayne treats everthing as exchangeable for money. She could be treating the situation like this: she's(and Simon by extension) a prostitute for Jayne's gain, but they get worse than nothing in return.

Jayne explains this backstabbing to Mal as "Money was too good", as if that would let him off, but what kind of deal would he have gotten from the Feds anyway? River hinted it was a "No deal" for a "No deal".


UP THE DOWN SLIDE

While River is being wheeled up to the recovery room by Simon, she is clearly "listening", just as she does before she tells Simon "That man is going to die. You have to help him."
"Doing it backwards" could certainly be and probably is a reference to the morgue-->recovery room, or that the meds are in the wrong order--administering them without checking the sheet, but...

Here's one more possibility: That moment is simultaneous with Mal and Zoe going up the incline the wrong way with the 'dead bodies'
Or I could be wrong and it's just her way of commenting that 1.) they're rebelling against the Alliance and 2.) laughing at the fact that the order of*everything* she learned as a innocent child (hence the playground reference) through her experiences since then is upside down.

Whew. Thanks for reading, and sorry for taking up space.

Going for a ride.

Another Sky

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Wednesday, April 23, 2008 10:40 AM

ZZETTA13


#2 "A copper for a kiss." I alway took as meaning the same as " A penny for your thoughts." since she catches Jayne staring down the tube lost in thought.

Z

Edit: Man I just noticed this threads over 2 years old.....holy smoly!

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Wednesday, April 23, 2008 11:43 AM

DONCOAT


I just had a strange thought. Perhaps it was mentioned above, but I didn't re-read the whole thread.

What if "Copper for a kiss" is a mixed metaphor? The "copper" part could mean 'policeman' rather than 'coin', while the "kiss" is (as many have suggested) the kiss of betrayal (Jesus and/or organized crime).

River could be saying that she knows Jayne was in the process of selling her out to the Alliance, but the message is lost in the layers of metaphor.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm pointin' right at it!

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Wednesday, April 23, 2008 12:00 PM

PHYRELIGHT


I always thought the "copper for a kiss" line was a reference to an event in Jayne's past that we have yet to learn or may never learn about.



Darksiders can keep their cookies. We have better writers.

Grrr. Argghh.

Patiently waiting to see Cap'n Hammerpants sing!

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Wednesday, April 23, 2008 1:34 PM

AUDDIE


i also wondered why jubal early saying that maybe he is santa clause coming down the chimmney with presents.. or something to that effect. i wondered if he also went to "the academy" when he was young. he was just as strange as river

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Wednesday, April 23, 2008 3:27 PM

FREEBROWNCOAT


Bowie, Doncoat and all the rest: A most impressive analysis on everyone;s part.

For me, it shows the depth of writing and of the characters. With River there is just so much to see if she is talking purely in metaphor. It may be her mind can only relate to childhood imagery, trying to put it in adult times but not quite capable of getting there. Instead, putting out mature observations in terms she understood (or not understood) as a child. When she was whole and sane.

None of the crew can really get into her zone, with the exception of her comments on cows in SAFE, so they only see unconnected ramblings. Of course we can't get too serious in analysis. Why would anyone understand that it takes 8.3 seconds to drain the blood from a human body, given adequate suctioning systems?

My hat's off to Tima and Joss and the others for the quality of dialog, the applicabilty to everyday living and breadth of feeling they convey.


"Buried in layers of psychosis."

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Wednesday, April 23, 2008 9:28 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Copper for a kiss would be a centuries old copy of "Penny for your thoughts" - no pennies in the verse.
Her volume fades as she become conscious, reads Jaynes mind, and finds he has betrayed them. From that point forward, she complains to Simon that she does not want to go back to the Institute, which is where he is leading her when he follows Jayne's directions. Until she tells him about it in Trash.

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Wednesday, April 23, 2008 9:45 PM

BORIS


I think River's insanity occurred because of what was done to her...before that I think she was just Mildly Autistic...which is not a bad thing as long as people don't try to mess with it...actually you are right she would not cope in our current time...the complex and at times nonsensical social expectations would turn her mind to mud. lets just leave her in a time where she's safe and looked after, and gets to fly a spaceship.

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Thursday, April 24, 2008 5:29 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


The whole copper for a kiss thing is pretty interesting. I think that she was speaking to Jayne and sensing his betrayal. She was reading his emotions at the moment. I think it could be a reference to Jesus being sold out by Judas. You know 30 pieces of silver and then he identifies him to the Romans by kissing him on the cheek. She is sensing his betrayal, but in her state cannot make the connection.
As for the Christmas comment I believe another poster nailed it saying that it was probably in reference to Jayne's past.

Shiny! Let's be bad guys!

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Thursday, April 24, 2008 6:58 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Also keep in mind Ariel took place in mid-late December 2517. Hence "Christmas."

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Tuesday, April 29, 2008 1:39 AM

AVA1990


It's

"Copper for a kiss"

Just watched it


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Tuesday, April 29, 2008 2:13 AM

RGS


You have to admit Joss and Tim are wordsmiths in that the writing on Firefly/Serenity every word said has meaning to it .

Yes Mal was talking about what River gleaned from those members of Parliment about Miranda and how it disturbed her mind so of that information .

"A copper for a kiss" she said when she 1st woke up at the hospital mayve meant to tell Jayne she knows whats up . The "Don't look in the closet for presents " and "I don't want to go back to the instute .I'll be good " .... River knows whats happening but Simon poor Simon should have known what she was saying to him , after all she is his sister .

"Good ..Bad ... I'm the one with the gun !!" Ash Army of Darkness

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Tuesday, January 12, 2010 9:01 AM

ANOTHERSKY


Quote:

Originally posted by SameErtia:
Quote:

Originally posted by 25MyTurn25:
Also someone mentioned in ariel River says, "we're doing it backwards, going up the downslide." Or somehting like that. What is she talking about?


River - You belived her, made a face.




I think she was referring to the doctor who was making the mistake with his patient. "He's doing it backwards. Going up the downslide".
Giving a vaso-restrictor to a heart-surgery patient would have been doing exactly that.




Or the fact that you take "dead" people (DOAs)in coffins into a hospital, where they are "resurrected"-- ie going up the downslide, as in reversing the natural process. You don't slide up a slide--gravity, a natural law makes that impossible.

Also, at this time Mal and Zoe are literally going the "wrong" way (up instead of down), when they are stopped by the doctor: "the morgue is that way". Doing it wrong results in the possibility of being caught and is a nice little suspenseful pronouncement.
__

Going for a ride.

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Tuesday, January 12, 2010 9:16 AM

ANOTHERSKY


Quote:

Originally posted by boris:
I think River's insanity occurred because of what was done to her...before that I think she was just Mildly Autistic...which is not a bad thing as long as people don't try to mess with it...actually you are right she would not cope in our current time...the complex and at times nonsensical social expectations would turn her mind to mud. lets just leave her in a time where she's safe and looked after, and gets to fly a spaceship.



Naw. Before the Academy, she was just a bloody genius. Profoundly gifted kids share some BEHAVIORAL overlap with autism--but the most notable and obvious exception, they understand (frequently to extreme nicety) social cues and interactions, which is ABSOLUTELY necessary to pull what she did on Badger in Shindig. That for me was the final proof against autism.

All her hallmarks (incredibly early reading--"correcting Simon's spelling at three", extreme physical coordination, love of everything she did, extreme curiosity and empathy--the main reason Dr. Mathias was so interested) are of very high IQ without the autistic diagnosis.

There is deleted dialogue for Simon in "Safe" about Academy kids coming back aphasic--in other words, the word-processing machinery in your brain goes screwy in various ways--so I think it's just extreme trauma(PTSD)and misfiring neurons combined with an incredibly creative and intelligent teenager.

Although yes, I do think Earth-that-was would drive her mad--given that 500+ years from now, it was hard to find a school 'at her level'. But, better than being experimented on, hmmm? I do wonder how she enjoys flying...probably immensely, given her (and Simon's, haha)response to the stars in Bushwacked.

__

Going for a ride.

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Tuesday, January 12, 2010 10:56 AM

BYTEMITE


Whoops, nevermind, this thread seems old and my comments have already been covered.

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Tuesday, January 12, 2010 12:05 PM

CAZARIL


"Cooper for a kiss": I always took this to be a Whedon version of "Penny for a thought"... River wakes from the meds, is smiling, and almost teasingly says this.. Then her face changes. This gives the distinct impression that she did what most of us wish we could when we say it, she read him (and I'm sure if we could do the same, we wouldn't get the answer we wanted either).

And while Zeek commented (4 years ago), that he didn't think Whedon would reuse something, I have always seen a lot of concept/material being reused from Firefly in Serenity. (Even though I don't think this was one of them).

"Stupid SOB, dress me up like a gorram doll".. I always looked at this as a commentary on her brother's taste in clothes. Which I assume he bought for her after he broke her out.

"They took away Christmas"... For the longest time, I saw this as all the good memories they took from River via the lobotomy, leaving only bad ones (Coal) and/or those of other people. But I really like Bowie's interpretation better.

I want to say that it was mentioned somewhere here (can't find it now), that Jayne realized she was reading him.. But don't think that was the case. I think he felt guilty, and was definitely uncomfortable with what he had done... He was on edge from the point he returned from the vid/wave/call. Even something as simple as "Your toes are in the sand" (someone want to explain the meaning of that one), makes Jayne very upset.

"I know the secret that burned up River Tam's brain"... It's a misconception on Mal's part. If you notice, River normalized somewhat after the secret comes out (quietly sitting on the edge of the table when it's decided they are goin'na misbehave). So like a malignant cancer, I think Mal thought the secret is what made her crazy. Once out, she was head to recovery (and the fact that he might let her help fly the ship would support that... You going to let a crazy person at the wheel!?...)... An if it is not a misconception, then it is the way it was meant to be. That the secret made her crazy... Maybe all the drugs and surgery just either; A) opened her mind up enough to gain access to the secrets, B) effected her reaction to them, or C) Both.

"Post hole digger...". I always just took the smile on her face, as she was happy with herself because she had managed to put the object with it's use (the post she was tied to). And never gave it much though beyond that.

"Up the down slide".. Never gave it much thought, was just River jabber. Although any meaning discussed here works for me.

Caz

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Thursday, January 14, 2010 12:22 PM

CAVALIER


Stalin famously said "One death is a tragedy: A million deaths are a statistic."

Because you cannot really feel anything for the anonymous victims.

But it might be different for River, after her surgery. Perhaps for her, a million deaths are a million tragedies, and she feels every single one.

So learning about Miranda would not be good for her.

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