Who's the toughest in the 'verse by ManiacNumberOne

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Who's the toughest in the 'verse

POSTED BY: MANIACNUMBERONE
UPDATED: Monday, March 3, 2003 10:16
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Sunday, March 02, 2003 10:01 AM

OK, so there was a thread similar to this posted a while back by Succatash, but I didn't get my 2 cents in.

Tied for last place in the Firefly toughness contest is Inara and Kaylee. They could probably smack each other all day and only get bruises.

Next we have Simon. Yes, unfortunately, I have placed him below his sister, River, in the toughness department.

And another tie for third, River and Wash. Now I know what you're thinking... Wash could kick River's butt. But recall Wash's woosiness in the face of Niska, and River's resolute Shooting abilities during the same episode. I would say Wash is physically stronger, but that wouldn't matter unless they were wrestling.

So who's left? Zoe, Jayne, Mal and Book.

Now don't get mad... cause another tie is in order. Zoe and Jayne. Yup. Even steven in my opinion.. and Mal would kick both their butts.

And so you know... Book is my perceived leader of kicking ass. I think he has hidden talents which would enable him to whoop anybody. I can see him learning some form of hand to hand combat at the abbey, much like the shaolin monks. Recall in the pilot that book stood up to Jayne with no fear in his eyes? That man has balls of solid rock.

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Sunday, March 02, 2003 11:03 AM

SUCCATASH

Except for Book, I think you've got it all wrong.

Has YOUR mom seen Firefly, lately?

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Sunday, March 02, 2003 11:10 AM

MANIACNUMBERONE

I am certain I do not have it wrong. Who do you think is tougher? I know the whole Wash statement probably threw you off, but I have yet to see him kick any ass. But I must close for now, I have tuna pains.

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Sunday, March 02, 2003 11:47 AM

SARAHETC

You're on crack. Or tuna. What are tuna pains. Anyway, you're on crack.

And this is just not Wash-love talking. Kaylee could whoop up, I bet.

Sarah

I'm a dying breed who still believes, haunted by American dreams. ---Neko Case

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Sunday, March 02, 2003 12:03 PM

MANIACNUMBERONE

So, Sarah, you think Kaylee could whoop on just Wash or do you think she could do some ass-kickin' on some others as well? What do you think about Book's bad-assedness? Tuna pains were my immediate need to eat tuna. I am now sated.

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Sunday, March 02, 2003 12:28 PM

SARAHETC

Quote:
Originally posted by ManiacNumberOne: So, Sarah, you think Kaylee could whoop on just Wash or do you think she could do some ass-kickin' on some others as well? What do you think about Book's bad-assedness? Tuna pains were my immediate need to eat tuna. I am now sated.

No, I don't think Kaylee could take Wash. But I do think she could take Simon.

Sometimes I get frappucino pains.

I'm a dying breed who still believes, haunted by American dreams. ---Neko Case

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Sunday, March 02, 2003 12:31 PM

MANIACNUMBERONE

Hmmm, I guess I hadn't even pictured the 2 of them fighting. I always thought if they tried, they would just end up flirting. heh heh. I love the frappucino's too. mmmmm, coffee.

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Sunday, March 02, 2003 12:40 PM

TZEGHA

Originally posted by Sarahetc:

Quote:
Sometimes I get frappucino pains.

I'm a barrista, I think I can help with that!

. . .

yeah, nothing more insightful to add . . .

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Sunday, March 02, 2003 1:17 PM

ARCHER

Uh... Inara at the bottom?

Let's see her in a swordfight sometime. Seems she's displayed a certain knowledge of how to manipulate the cutlery. Superior knowledge to Mal's, as it happens. And she certainly did a spiffy dodge back in Our Mrs. Reynolds, neh?

Kind of makes a person curious about exactly what all is taught at yonder Companion's Academy. I could see advanced self-defense being part of the studies... but dueling with swords? Hmmmmmm.

Besides, if we insult the lady, Mal will come and kick our butts.

"If it takes ten thousand years, we never will retreat."

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Sunday, March 02, 2003 2:02 PM

MANIACNUMBERONE

Quote:
Originally posted by Archer: Uh... Inara at the bottom?

Let's see her in a swordfight sometime. Seems she's displayed a certain knowledge of how to manipulate the cutlery. Superior knowledge to Mal's, as it happens. And she certainly did a spiffy dodge back in Our Mrs. Reynolds, neh?

Kind of makes a person curious about exactly what all is taught at yonder Companion's Academy. I could see advanced self-defense being part of the studies... but dueling with swords? Hmmmmmm.

Besides, if we insult the lady, Mal will come and kick our butts.

"If it takes ten thousand years, we never will retreat."

I guess I should have specified what sort of standard we need to set for the word "toughest." Whether it be by the sword, the fist, guns, or whatever. I would like to submit that in some sort of bare-handed bar brawl, that the order which I suggested would come fairly close, but with weapons the whole scenario changes.

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Sunday, March 02, 2003 3:33 PM

KAYTHRYN

Another good list to make would be "Mentally/emotionally, who's the toughest in the 'verse". The physical muscle and skill needed to be considered tough is one part, but strength in character is a whole other side. I think it is such a toss up between characters because we don’t know everything about everyone's past. We know that Simon is certainly very strong, we've see a lot of what he went through... Giving up his whole life, being kidnapped and betrayed, ect. We also know Zoë and Mal are strong. They had to be strong to survive through the war the way they did. I believe that the three of them are ranked somewhere at the top of the list and everyone else kind of hovers somewhere below them. In War stories we get to see just how strong Wash is. True, he wasn't able to stand up to the physical torture like Mal could, but right after he got out, he got right back up and was ready to go back in. Jayne’s tough. I think the thing that makes him tough is the fact that he doesn’t care. He doesn’t seem to be the person to make and care about long committed relationships (friends or otherwise), or be chivalrous like Mal sometimes is, caring what people say or believe. From what I’ve put together he didn’t passionately care about the Alliance or the Independents enough to be involved in the war, so I’m assuming his moral high ground is more like a valley. Sadly, this is what makes him tough. Kaylee, oh poor Kaylee. She defiantly doesn’t rank high in the original list of “who’s the toughest in the ‘verse”, but I think she’d rank higher in this one. She sounds like the kind of girl that can roll with the punches, and be made happy with pretty little. That sounds tough to me. I don’t think she’d be able to handle the kinds of things River, or Mal had to handle, but she’s still up there. Inara is kind of in the in between for me. I don‘t see her as particularly tough, but she can hold her own. She was brave enough to try and talk down Early, sneak out and teach Mal to fence, and she stands up to him when she knows he’s acting like an ass and that earns her double points. Book has some mysterious past but I don’t think he could be ranked above Mal, Zoë, River or Simon. My reasoning is from seeing him cry in the Pilot. That’s a pretty weak reason I know, but it’s all I have. River. Yeah. River is a quandary. She needs her own list. I don’t know if we can count what she went through as being tough. She didn’t have a choice --like Wash going back to face Niska, or Simon willingly giving up everything for River-- She was tortured and then freed. We don’t know what the “two by two hands of blue” dudes did to her, so we can’t really tell if she is broken or her behavior is all due to her brain being all special . Maybe both.

Well, those are my ideas, any thoughts, complaints or half nervous half annoyed laughs?

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Sunday, March 02, 2003 5:25 PM

MANIACNUMBERONE

I like what you had to say. I think you are right on with what you thought about River, Simon and Jayne, but I thought Book's crying was a sign of strength though, not weakness.

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Sunday, March 02, 2003 6:36 PM

SARAHETC

Quote:
Originally posted by ManiacNumberOne: I like what you had to say. I think you are right on with what you thought about River, Simon and Jayne, but I thought Book's crying was a sign of strength though, not weakness.

See, I saw Book crying out of guilt and/or regret. File that under weakness if you *have* to, but I don't think you do.

This has no basis in fact, but what if people getting shot and killed and all laws broken and all manner of other bad stuff--what if this was falling off the wagon for Book? What if this was his first go round in the 'verse since he hit rock bottom (of the whatever, and durn don't we all know it was something serious) and now he's back to step rutting one.

And what if what we see with Inara is that moment between steps 12 and 1 where he stops to feel sorry for himself?

Sarah

I'm a dying breed who still believes, haunted by American dreams. ---Neko Case

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Sunday, March 02, 2003 6:59 PM

MANIACNUMBERONE

Dang if we aren't just the most of insightful bunch of bastards around. Sarah, you are right on with your assumption, I think. What do you suppose Book is feeling guilty about? War atrocities?

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Sunday, March 02, 2003 6:59 PM

KAYTHRYN

I feel I need to clarify my views on Book. I'm not saying he is weak, not by a long stretch. I'm just saying he is not as tough as some of the others. Part of the reason I ranked him so low is because we don’t know anything about him. He hasn't exactly been in the spot light with enough camera time to show off who her really is. It's all just speculation at this point. I've ranked Book low on the "Mentally/emotionally who's the toughest in the 'verse" list because I haven't seen him do anything all that great. Granted, he did go into Niska's sky-plex after Mal, but I don't think ( mentally and emotionally , concerning the stuff your character is made of) that it was really going out on a limb for him. He obviously has some amazing talent when it comes to self defense, so it most likely didn’t take as much courage for him to go against those armed men as if did for someone like Simon who had never shot anyone before. Off handedly I can’t think of any thing else that Book has done that has shown above and beyond strength, courage, and toughness that would move him above Mal, Zoë, and Simon. He might be able to talk them all down with some Priestly Vulcan pinch, but I just can’t see any examples that are persuasive enough to have him moved up. Did that long rant make any sense?

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Sunday, March 02, 2003 8:16 PM

WULFHAWK

The fighter who WANTS to win most has an advantage. The fighter who disregards the danger has an advantage. The fighter that disregards rules and honor has an advantage. The trained fighter has an advantage.

A determined, reckless, ruthless, veteran fighter has all the advantages.

Mal.

TANSTAAFL

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Sunday, March 02, 2003 10:10 PM

SUCCATASH

My original thread:

Thursday, February 06, 2003 22:06 http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=1526

Originally posted by Succatash:

1. Mal vs. Book - A good fight, but I think Book would win, if Book thought he HAD to win.

2. Mal vs. Jayne - Jayne would only win if he could get the first punch. If Mal had time to find a weapon he would beat Jayne.

3. Mal vs. Zoe Zoe, she's a warrior woman.

4. Mal vs. William Riker Mal would find a way to kick his ass.

5. Mal vs. Han Solo This would be a great fight but in the end they would find out they are long lost brothers or something, and Mal would finally find love among the Wookie folk.

6. Mal vs. Capt. Archer Mal would give him a big Wedgie after slapping Archer all the way to sickbay.

7. Mal vs. Dirty Harry Damn good gunfight, here. It depends. Mal is one of the best, but so is the legendary Dirty Harry in a gun fight.

8. Mal vs. Maverick (James Gardner/Mel Gibson) I'd like to see this. Really, I would.

9. Mal vs. Elvis Presley Mal would spank the Elvis hound dog!

10. Mal vs. Jack Bauer Pay Per View Only

Has YOUR mom seen Firefly, lately?

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Monday, March 03, 2003 10:04 AM

MANIACNUMBERONE

Quote:
Originally posted by Kaythryn: Part of the reason I ranked him so low is because we don’t know anything about him. He hasn't exactly been in the spot light with enough camera time to show off who her really is. It's all just speculation at this point. I've ranked Book low on the "Mentally/emotionally who's the toughest in the 'verse" list because I haven't seen him do anything all that great.

I think Book has thinly veiled toughness. Remember in the pilot when the mole got knocked out (by Book with one hit) and Jayne came up to the mole to finish him off? Book stood and faced Jayne. Courageous. We don't get to find out what might have happened because Zoe appears to threaten Jayne too, but Book never backed down an inch.

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Monday, March 03, 2003 10:11 AM

MANIACNUMBERONE

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfhawk: The fighter who WANTS to win most has an advantage. The fighter who disregards the danger has an advantage. The fighter that disregards rules and honor has an advantage. The trained fighter has an advantage.

A determined, reckless, ruthless, veteran fighter has all the advantages.

Mal.

I have to disagree with everything you wrote, except for the fighter with the greatest desire having the advantage. Sorry. I think in this verse disregarding danger gives you a disadvantage, not an advantage. Mal and Zoe making the deal with Patience were greatly outnumbered by Patience and her crew, yet through superior planning and luck they succeeded. I would put a ruthless, reckless, veteran fighter in a room with a crazy clairvoyant (each with a gun)and I would be very surprised to see the veteran emerge.

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Monday, March 03, 2003 10:16 AM

MANIACNUMBERONE

Hey Succatash, have you ever seen the "Trinity" westerns? The 2 characters in those great old westerns, (brothers by the way) could each kick the ass of any person in the list, individually or as a group. I like the fact that you can't really disagree till you go out and watch them too. By the way, no disparaging of Firefly meant by saying they would all get an ass-kicking, just that they would lose in a fight. In everything else, story, plot, setting, character development---Firefly is vastly superior.

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