GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Book was an operative!

POSTED BY: GRAYFURY
UPDATED: Wednesday, December 28, 2005 08:01
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Saturday, December 17, 2005 5:46 AM

GRAYFURY


Ok, Now I keep touching on a point....Books' past. After just reading the Novelazation of the BDM It became clear as day. When you add up the printed scene where The operative "meets" Book, and all the other clues I hit upon in a previous post...

I want to use this post to site clues to either back, or discredit my Big Damn Theory... I'll start

In the BDM Book told Mal how the operative would work..."He'll come at you sideways!" Which he did. In the novelazation The Operative says hes "posing" as a sheperd, and he knows his first name.... He KNEW him before he came to Haven and I dont think it was just intel.

In Train Job he knew who Adali Niska was as well as his methods and reputation.

In Bushwhacked His ID got him the best medical attention possible as soon as possible on an alliance cruiser... The look on Matt's (from Melrose place) face was as much fear as respect.

In Our Mrs. Reynolds Book knew how the scavengers were going to operate the taking of Serenity.

In War Stories Book knew the weapons used to kill the men Mal and Wash were making the drop with. and he also confided to Jayne that he used to hunt "Rabbits" (I've said before that I belive he meant someone who runs.... Like River and Simon did!)

Also in War stories He could shoot like a man well trained to do so.

In Objects in space Jubal early Recognized Book and said " THAT aint no shepard!" not he aint no shepard... He was aware of his past.

My last hairbrained theory is that Book's "final" mission had something to do with Miranda... His guilt drove him to the arms of faith.



"Dear God In Heaven!" - Plastic Dinosaur

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Saturday, December 17, 2005 6:05 AM

HARSHCRITIC


That is a very good theory. But was there anything in the movie that lead you to believe that Book knew about Miranda?

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Saturday, December 17, 2005 6:07 AM

THEREALME


Yes, these things have been considered before, but perhaps not summarized so well.

I never thought of the Miranda mission angle. That could be.


TheRealMe, First Officer of the Sereni-Tree

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Saturday, December 17, 2005 6:39 AM

CAUSAL


Kudos for the thread--you've pulled a lot together that wasn't terribly organized before. I completely agree that Book was an Operative in the past. The whole "believes hard; kills and don't ask why" line convinced me more so than knowing the modus operadandi. But I'm not convinced about the whole Miranda thing. Doesn't seem like Joss' style to have all the story arcs tied up in one neat bundle labeled "Miranda". If we pushed it hard enough, I'm sure we could tie Inara to it, as well as Mal and Zoe's wartime history and other sundries. Seems like Joss would prefer to have each character driven (or haunted) by his/her own individual past. Myself, I've always thought that it was some war-time mission that drove Book over the edge. Possibly he was involved in a massacre of some kind and something got to him? Or maybe something convinced him that he was on the wrong side, that he should've sided with the Independents. It would certainly be a special kind of torture to already feel guilt over something--but then to have your justification taken away...why, I imagine a man would go pretty far to absolve himself of that.

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Saturday, December 17, 2005 7:12 AM

GRAYFURY


He also worked out alot...

Plus in Objects in space, Jubal Early Just Took him out.... Everyone else on the boat, (Sides Mal who came out swinging his own self), he tried to impress with his $20 words and intimidate. When he saw Book he just had to take him out fast... why would a 55 year old shepard make him so nervous?

"Dear God In Heaven!" - Plastic Dinosaur

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Saturday, December 17, 2005 7:21 AM

CHRISISALL


"Been out of the world, like to walk it a while."

The world of an Operative must be so mentally confining- sort of like being in a emotional prison. That's what Book might have been referring to in the pilot...

Shepard Chrisisall

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Saturday, December 17, 2005 8:08 AM

CAUSAL


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
The world of an Operative must be so mentally confining- sort of like being in a emotional prison. That's what Book might have been referring to in the pilot...



Interesting idea (and no doubt, fanatical devotion must be confining), but I'm pretty sure that Book was just talking about life in the abbey. Perhaps this is the very first time Book allowed himself to emerge from his self-seclusion. That would account for his teary "I think I'm on the wrong ship". He entered the abbey to escape the life of danger and violence and a seared conscience, and what does he find when he leaves the abbey? Mal's little band of rogues, and a lifestyle not wholly dissimilar from what he left behind (though, of course, no longer on the side of the Alliance, which is maybe why he stays--see my post above).

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Saturday, December 17, 2005 8:36 AM

CHRISISALL


Yeah, that would make sense...and wouldn't preclude the idea that both an Operative and a Shepard at the Abbey take you 'out of the world'.


Just speculatin' Chrisisall

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Saturday, December 17, 2005 8:58 AM

STYROFOAMGUY


I think saying Book was an Operative is too simple an answer. Hopefully with a sequel we will be given more of Books background.

Knowing Joss he will give us something else instead of the obvious. I have no idea how he will do it but I trust Joss will give us something we would never expect but is believable.



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Saturday, December 17, 2005 9:08 AM

JONUS


I can see Book being an Operative and having a dark past. That'd be cool. I just wish he wasn't killed off, Wash also. But I've always wondered about Book's past. I just don't think his past will be revealed now that he's gone...unless he's tougher than we thought and he ain't dead? Maybe...

Mal would kick Han Solo's ass.

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Saturday, December 17, 2005 9:16 AM

ETHAN


Not only do I think Book was an Operative...I think he was still one when he boarded Serenity!

Book's mission may have been deep cover to shadow River or one of the other Serenity crew, but something about life aboard Mal's ship made him question and turn his back on his duty/beliefs. I base this on a several lines that come out of left field :

1) In 'Objects in Space,' River's vision of Book saying "I don't give half a hump whether you're innocent or not. So where does that put you?" These are chilling words which may hint at a still possible betrayal at his hands.

2) In 'Serenity, the pilot' Book tells Mal when he wrongly thinks Simon is the Alliance mole, "I hate to say it, but I think you have the wrong man." Why would he hate to say that at that moment?

3) Book in 'Serenity, the BDM' suddenly doesn't care what Mal believes, "As long as you believe" something with conviction. It sounds like Book has had a prolonged struggle with his own conflicting beliefs before settling in his life on Haven.

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Saturday, December 17, 2005 10:08 AM

EXCITINGNEWCRIME


It all sounds like a good theory - but when Joss was in the UK someone asked him that and I'm fairly certain he said it was a good thought, but no. :D

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Saturday, December 17, 2005 10:34 AM

KESSIE


I dont know, but knowing Joss, the answer that Book was a operative would be too obvious for me. I rather think that Inara could have to do something with that since it was her voice which was on the com in the academy. Also maybe that could be an explanation for the syringe? As weapon or whatever ?
But well just guessing here since until Joss tells us we can never know for sure!


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Saturday, December 17, 2005 11:49 AM

STAKETHELURK


At this point, I agree that all the evidence seems to be indicating that Book was an Operative. However, we never have any direct confirmation, only the thematic parallel between Book and the Operative, and Book's knowledge of the working of the Alliance. I think this is a brilliant move on Joss' part as a storyteller. As it stands, Books past seems to be resolved for us. But, if (please!) there's a continuation, Book's past could turn out to be something entirely different--and that would not contradict the BDM! It's closure without restricting further development; Joss at his best.

So, for now it seems that Book is an Operative. But it could turn out that he's something else entirely. And both answers are good in my book.

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Saturday, December 17, 2005 11:50 AM

LIVIDLIQUID


Joss had absolutely nothing to do with that book and refused to even read it for fear that he'd want to do it better himself. Things in the book that aren't in the movie, such as your example, and the explanation of Mr. Universe's past, are non-canon.

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Saturday, December 17, 2005 12:02 PM

SERRADA


"Thankx"
Very well done.I don't know if your theory's correct but Book is certainly one of my favorite characters.
"Lord,I'm walking your way.
Let me in,for my feet are sore,my clothes are ragged.
Look in my eyes,Lord,and my sins will play out on them as on a screen.
Read them all.
Forgive what You can,and send me on my path.
I will walk on untill You bid me rest.-Shepherd Book

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Saturday, December 17, 2005 1:04 PM

GIANTEVILHEAD


Book being an ex-operative would be too obvious. I think it would be cool if Book was the reason why Operatives were created in the first place. Someone had to do what Operatives did before there were Operatives.

The Operative has an interesting ideology, he commits evil to create a better world and that it is done through something greater than himself even though he didn't really know what was really accomplished through his actions. The belief that he is carrying out the will of something greater than himself makes him very dangerous because it takes away all his uncertainties and his doubts.

I think that Book once committed evil to prevent the world from falling further into darkness and that he did not rely on the judgment of an entity greater than himself, he relied on his own judgment or perhaps the judgment of other men. I think that Book knew full well of all the consequences of his actions but he did it anyway because it was necessary to prevent a greater evil. However, because he was relying on his own judgment, there was doubt; he began to question his own actions and the actions of those around him and perhaps began looking to other places for answers. That would be interesting wouldn’t it? Book found faith due to the consequences of his actions while the Operative lost faith due to the consequences of his actions.

"I swallowed a bug." -River Tam

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Saturday, December 17, 2005 6:34 PM

THEREALME


While I am quite willing to believe that Book was once an Operative, I do not believe that he had some secret mission when he boarded Serenity. I think that the Book we see is who he claims to be... a shepherd.

What he USED to be, that is the question!

But if he WERE undercover, he did a lousy job at it. Even Jayne spotted holes in his supposed cover. No, if he were CURRENTLY an Operative, he'd be such a good actor that he'd never slip, and we would have no clue.


TheRealMe, First Officer of the Sereni-Tree

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Saturday, December 17, 2005 9:11 PM

RCAT


I've gone back and forth on this, mainly for the reasons mentioned in the original post (tho' I didn't read the novel), nice job bringing them together. One of the first hints was in the pilot when he cold-cocks the agent w/ out hesitation.

I'm still not sure he was an "operative" but he clearly was some kind of Alliance covert agent/figure. David Morrel writes a lot about the connections between black-ops agents and a monastical life-style. I don't think he still was once he got to the ship. The line in River's vision was spoken w/ venom but maybe she misunderstood...perhaps his thought of her were non-judgemental but in her confusion saw it as anger...


'Cause how you get there is the worthier part.
-Book

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Sunday, December 18, 2005 2:33 AM

THEREALME


I'm not convinced that Book's "Inner Thoughts" that River picked up in Objects in Space had anything to do with her.

I think those thoughts DID give a clue about why Book turned his back on his previous life and sought religion.


TheRealMe, First Officer of the Sereni-Tree

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Sunday, December 18, 2005 2:34 AM

CITIZEN


I lean towards the operative theory too. In fact I started to think Book may have been an assassin (which is what an operative is more or less) from the first few episodes of the series, long before the film was out. He disables Dobson with very direct purposeful blows, he knows a great deal about the criminality of the 'Verse.

I would have said it was a possibility that book was some sort of crime lord, if it weren't for the scenes in Safe where he receives medical treatment from the Alliance.

I don't hold to the theory that book was an Alliance General for various reasons. Firstly consider Simon's line from Ariel:
"... Important people don't do field work."
Book clearly has done field work, and is competent enough at unarmed combat to say to me that he spent most of his career doing it. Also Generals are often not taken from the fighting stock, i.e. they don't necessarily know how to fight, at least not well. They certainly wouldn't be great marksmen. Generals think strategy, Soldiers and Operatives fight.

Ethan:
You asked a few questions in your post which I think I have some answers for. So if I may offer an alternative point of view.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ethan:
1) In 'Objects in Space,' River's vision of Book saying "I don't give half a hump whether you're innocent or not. So where does that put you?" These are chilling words which may hint at a still possible betrayal at his hands.


They may point to that but some of the crews words weren't directed at River in anyway, it's also a possibility that Book's words were based around a future or past event completly unrelated to River. Not an answer really but a counterbalance.
Quote:

2) In 'Serenity, the pilot' Book tells Mal when he wrongly thinks Simon is the Alliance mole, "I hate to say it, but I think you have the wrong man." Why would he hate to say that at that moment?

Probably because the right man was pointing a gun at him. Mal had a weapon trained on Simon, thinking he had the drop on the man who had sold them out, when in the end it was the other way around, the man who sold them out had the drop on him, I hate to say.
Quote:

Book in 'Serenity, the BDM' suddenly doesn't care what Mal believes, "As long as you believe" something with conviction. It sounds like Book has had a prolonged struggle with his own conflicting beliefs before settling in his life on Haven.

Did Book ever care what the crew believed in? In Serenity the pilot he didn't preach to Inara, he brought her dinner. This line from the BDM doesn't suggest to me he was an Operative on Serenity, it suggests that he was an Operative once (Belief/Faith being important).

I don't recall anything that really suggests that Book was an Operative on board Serenity, and some that suggests he wasn't. Consider that he breaks down at the end of the pilot Serenity, because of the things he did through the episode that were more like his (possible) old lifestyle, than his new one. He goes out from the Abby into the real world and almost immediately starts reliving his old life perhaps?



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Sunday, December 18, 2005 5:15 AM

XEROGRAVITY


Book was a deep-cover operative. He started out working for the resistance (sort of), and went thru Alliance secret-agent school (sort of). Loyal guy! He switched sides. He played alliance guy informant, but secretly fed information to the resistance. Then he was converted. He subverted his trusted allies in the resistance and fought villainous alliance monsters who were powerful people, yet he was equally torn between both sides. His side both won and lost. He remains dutifully bound to the same side he always fought for. Which side that is remains happily buried in the mysterious world of "never answered".

There is no way to know whose side he was on. The story never got told, and it's not gonna get told any further at this point. We can debate it endlessly, but Wash is happily stuck in the mystery department (I'm sorry didn't he get put in the casualty column?).

Ahh we can debate this forever. The fun of it.

XG

Frankly, I'm rooting for the "undecided" side.


No such thing as gravity. The "Earth-that-was" just sucks.

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Sunday, December 18, 2005 10:20 AM

CYBERSNARK


I also think Book-as-Operative is too simple, and Joss never does "obvious."

Telling detail: in the novelization, after swearing that he had no name, the Operative recognizes Book, and calls him Derrial.

Now, granted, Operatives may well have some form of code-name, or Book may have been a lower-class operative (note that Dr. Matthias, upon first meeting the Operative, expects him to have a name and rank on file), but I hardly think an ex-Operative would use his "real" name after disappearing (the presence of "Derrial Book" on his tombstone proves that Serenity's crew does know that name).

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We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Sunday, December 18, 2005 5:51 PM

XEROGRAVITY


I give you (in a 1000 words or less, and zero syllables) the definition of "Book"...


?


There you have it. You heard it here first. Spread the "?"


XG


No such thing as gravity. The "Earth-that-was" just sucks.

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Sunday, December 18, 2005 8:35 PM

VOLANGENERAL


Well I dont know if any one noticed but book knew about Miranda. In I think it was bushwacked he says the reavers are just men. Everybody automatcly dismissd it because hes a shepard. In fact I didn't relize this until just know when I was reading the posts.

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Sunday, December 18, 2005 9:23 PM

FREERADICAL42


Since this is a thread I was reading before I joined just now, and the thing that's been occupying my mind the most since the movie, figured it'd make a fine inaugural post.

I think that Book may've been the fellow who *trained* the first Operatives. He's old enough that he lived through the Unification War and the formation of the Alliance, so the odds are good that he was involved in the formation of that government, given his higher connections.

Perhaps he was always convinced that he was on the right side, but not that he'd be on the winning one, in contrast to Mal, and so he always tried to give the Alliance the covert upper hand. When he discovered that Operatives were being given pretty much free reign, he left to contemplate whether what he had done was really right; hence all of the doubting that he ends up doing throughout the series. Eventually he learns that he was wrong all along and comes to grips with this; he moves to one of the few planets almost completely out of Alliance control; Haven, which has been owned and governed by a private group of miners/settlers for years.

As to the "I don't give half a hump" line in "Objects," I've often wondered if this was thought at River or at Jayne. The rest of the crew are still doubting Jayne, because they don't know for sure if he did anything on Ariel. Book, being the perceptive sort, might have put two and two together despite his not being there, and assumed that Jayne's generosity after the Ariel heist was to convince others of his innocence and good nature for some offence. Since River seems to pick out negative emotions better than positive ones, she picked up on Book's contempt for someone who allows himself to be so controlled by his desires; in this case, Jayne.

I don't think that Book was an undercover plant to take out River and Simon because he has too many things that take too long to prepare; the strawberries that take weeks to grow, the long hair that takes months. He was definitely prepared for his role as shepherd, leading me to believe that he had been purely a shepherd for some time when the series began.

Just what I've come up with on this topic.

"See, morbid and creepifying, I got no problem with, long as she does it quiet-like."

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Sunday, December 18, 2005 9:44 PM

GIANTEVILHEAD


A lot of people are making the assumption that Book became a Shepherd to atone for something he did wrong. However Joss has a habit of creating unconventional characters so I think that it is entirely possible that Book is actually atoning for something he did that was right or maybe even righteous.

"I swallowed a bug." -River Tam

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Monday, December 19, 2005 3:21 AM

GRAYFURY


I just had a thought last night.... He might be tied into Serenity valley somehow... He was just ambling the streets of Persephone when Kaylee started barking him. I think it swayed him when she said "...Well I'm Kaylle and this heres Serenity!" ....But again, just my hairbrained grasping for answers I'll probably never get.

"Dear God In Heaven!" - Plastic Dinosaur

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Monday, December 19, 2005 3:57 AM

THEREALME


As far as Book saying they are "just men," that requires no big leap. They ARE just men (and women). Any bodies recovered would prove that they are not aliens.

It has been discussed in other threads that perhaps the Inner Thoughts that River read represented each person's deepest regrets, or character-defining moments. For Book, it is my belief that those comments came from a much younger Book (or whatever name he used then).

The reason that I think Book turned to religion to atone for some deed is that it fits the archtype. Throughout Firefly, each character represents some Western archetype (and there is a thread for this, too).

Mal is the Sheriff tryting to do the right thing in a lawless place.

Zoe is the loyal deputy.

Simon is the moneyed individual from back east who is used to the easy life.

Inara is the whore with the heart of gold.

Kaylee is the sweet school marm.

Jayne is the thug.

River is the innocent that needs to be protected.

Wash is the town drunk (okay, not a precise match, but both provide comic relief).

Reavers are the "savage injuns".

And Book is the retired gunslinger who has seen and caused too much death and doesn't want to fight anymore, but keeps getting called out.



TheRealMe, First Officer of the Sereni-Tree

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Tuesday, December 20, 2005 3:28 AM

XEROGRAVITY


FreeRadical42:

Your post is the 1st (and hopefully NEVER the last) I agree with.

You're continuing my line of reasoning (whether you know it or not). Never mind my duplicitous contradictory post a couple posts back. Just bouncing conundrum-ical bits of mixed logic out into the ethers. I knew some super genius-type would pick up where I left off and smash through the writer's block invisible wall that tortured and tormented my supergenius diabolical mastermind interpretations of the plot.

Alas. We have you.

I'm totally loving your rationales (in a very intellectual non-gay sort of way).

I give you a complimentary baby-bottle sized emperor-worthy manheap of "Grey Poupon" mustard. A meager reward for your brilliant insights (and NO I'm not being facetious! I find your thinking deliciously clever and you are analyzing the plot at a level I could not attain) (DAMN YOU!).

Smear that Grey Poupon on that skullish bastille trying to limit your explosively expanding brain (yet save some for sandwiches). It's brain cell liberation day!

Seriously dude. You're post is right on the money. You took it to new levels! I'm suddenly rethinking my take on Wash. Good job!

XG


No such thing as gravity. The "Earth-that-was" just sucks.

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Tuesday, December 20, 2005 3:45 AM

XEROGRAVITY


Let me reiterate. I'm not being a mocking or facetious asshole. Your post is the 1st original insight in the "Wash" mystery in way too long. I'm feeling your vibe. Been trying to figure out what Wash was all about and your post is making me think.

I still am all "?" but now I have to add a "???" to that "?"

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Tuesday, December 20, 2005 10:08 AM

ZIGGY


I agree that at the moment all the evidence seems to point to Book being an operative, or something very similar, and some event in his past that has inspired him to turn to religion. I don't believe that he was still an operative when he joins Serenity, for the reasons already mentioned. However I do believe he had some purpose in joining Serenity.
Kaylee points out in the pilot that "you're not looking at the destinations, you're looking at the ships"
I also think the line "I think I'm on the wrong ship" is very significant. He seems to be seeking something in particular.
It crossed my mind that there could be some sort of prophecy involved concerning Mal or some other member of the crew, or even the ship in general. It could be about something apocolyptic which many prophecies are but I don't think this is Joss' style. It could concern the overthrow of the alliance. I really have'nt thought it all out.
One of things that really puzzled me is if Book had a purpose in joining Serenity in particular why did he leave? Could anyone who's read the comics shed any light on this?
I also think that when Mal ask if he shouldn't be out converting fuzzy-wuzzies Book replies "I've heathens applenty right here" could be significant. A that point he certainly doesn't want to leave, and equally doesn't want to say why.
Could his purpose merely be to save Mal's soul? Mal was a god-fearing man before he lost his faith after the battle of Serenity. I think there's a bible story about the good shepherd who left his flock to search for one lost sheep. Mal could be that lost sheep and the story could tie in with the use of the term Shepherd. I don't recall Book denying it when Mal aks him.

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Tuesday, December 20, 2005 10:38 AM

ETHAN


What is a 'believer?'

Whether Book is an operative of the alliance or not, I think the key to discovering who he truly is will have to do with the definition of the term 'believer,' which was introduced and frequently used in Serenity the BDM.

An idea which has more resonance (for me at least) is that Book and the Operative are dichotomous representations of the same cult. They both believe hard in their own way, but their divergence in action is more realized by the facts of their personal circumstances. I think this type of character study is more amendable to 'Joss Whedon' type story arcs. Who knows, maybe Book and the Operative had the same teacher in this cult. Maybe Book came aboard Serenity as some part of a self-imposed exile a la 'Obiwan' because he failed as the Operative's mentor. Hey Joss said himself, "steal from everyone!" As long as he can improve upon the original.

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Tuesday, December 20, 2005 10:51 AM

DANIELFYRE


I don't know about the whole Book still being active on Serenity. I think its safe to say that he wasn't or else as someone else had said he wouldn't have left...Also the whole book being an OPERATIVE...I donno about that because if he was why would he just be able to leave for religion like he did yet later when he needed medical attention be given it so readily. One would think being an operative in the allice would be a position one would not be able to leave readily due to the sensitive nature of the job. Whatever Book was he was praised for it he had a reputation it seemed everyone in the alliance knew about as opposed to a secret opperative as implied. Book was perhaps some type of uppercrust leader not an opperative, but perhaps the one that directed opperatives. The man behind the brute and being so powerful that when he finally began to feel guilt for whatever he did he would be able to step down without being questioned and leave his work to another and go into seclusion, change his name, attone and the like. Just wanted to add my two cents. Thanks.

-Dan

Ain't that just shiny?

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Tuesday, December 20, 2005 11:04 AM

SENORBURRITO


They all sound like good theories, hopefully Joss will provide us with an answer in a future installment in the series or something like that. Maybe a book, that would be cool too, but a movie or a tv show would be even better. I don't know though if he was an operative...he might have done field work by the way he moves, but he I think he was one of the Alliance's first wave. I think he was one of the people who fought against the browncoats and it is possible that he boarded Serenity because he won Serenity valley with the alliance and after seeing the error of his ways with the alliance and becoming a sheperd and all that stuff he found Serenity again...so now it was his chance in fate to see how the other side worked and he took it which is why in the pilot episode he questions whether or not he's on the right ship. He left one because he believed it was wrong and now he's on the other side and doesn't know if they're right...

Mal: We've done the impossible and that makes us mighty.

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Tuesday, December 20, 2005 6:20 PM

THEREALME


I once believed that Book was the winning general at Serenity Valley. That would make a nice mirror image. Book won at Serenity, but due to his experiences there, he turned to religion.

Mal lost the Battle of Serenity, and he lost religion because of that.

TheRealMe, First Officer of the Sereni-Tree

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Thursday, December 22, 2005 6:02 PM

XEROGRAVITY


I swore off posting in these forums but I just bought the freakin CD, watched the movie 2X and now I have to post on this thread. Frankly, the "Book" thing is the only real mystery to me.

My conclusion:

He was an alliance assassin like sword dude from the movie. He learned about Miranda and stopped being their boy (much the same as "sword boy" did in the BDM when Mal whipped his ass and made him watch the "Reaverized-Mirandans Gone Wild" video).

I have no doubt about it. Listen closely to his dying words (unfinshed though they may be). And the the whole direction of his final few words.

It's a "protect River" kinda thing.

XG


No such thing as gravity. The "Earth-that-was" just sucks.

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Thursday, December 22, 2005 8:40 PM

STDOUBT


===!!===SPOILER WARNING===!!=======

Not sure this is worth its own thread,
(so I'm posting here since it's Book-related).

===!!===SPOILER WARNING===!!=======

Did anyone notice how Book said River's
name as he lay dying?

===!!===SPOILER WARNING===!!=======

It's a detail I picked up without really realizing.
I think it's a very interesting piece of triviana.

edit: doh! would help if I read up the thread eh?

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Thursday, December 22, 2005 8:44 PM

ETHAN


^
Interesting. I wrote a fan fic about how Book was a member of a secret society of "Believers" and his assignment was to insinuate himself into River's life to protect her.

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Thursday, December 22, 2005 8:55 PM

FLIPDOG


I said those same things the night I saw the movie. Except for Book finding Miranda...that seems a little much. I think he just simply got fed up with the Alliance and left. Becoming a Preist to "atone" for his sins is a logical answer. Maybe he just felt the call to leave. Maybe he only knew about River and what they planned to do with her. Then when he found himself aboard Serenity with her, he stuck around to protect her. But then when he found that his presence was now known by the Alliance, he made the decision to leave. Because having her in the same vicinity of an ex-Alliance operative would put her in danger. And by then he knew he could trust Mal to take care of her.
Then, the movie rolls around and Mal is trying to make her a more useful member of the crew, but he comes off in that smart-ass way. But I really do think he cares about her. And then Book dies, his last few words including, "believe in her."

And to those saying that it's too simple. Remember that the simlplest, logical explanation is usually the correct one, not everything has to be complicated.

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Thursday, December 22, 2005 9:13 PM

GIANTEVILHEAD


Ockham's Razor doesn't apply to fiction since you are required to suspend your disbelief just to enjoy the story.

"I swallowed a bug." -River Tam

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Thursday, December 22, 2005 9:26 PM

FLIPDOG


Not all the time. In this case it makes sense. If it doesn't to you...explain how.

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Thursday, December 22, 2005 11:25 PM

GIANTEVILHEAD


The simplest explanation is not always the most entertaining or compelling answer. Fiction does not give the answers that are the most simple or logical, it gives the answers that furthers the storyline and makes the story more interesting and compelling.

"I swallowed a bug." -River Tam

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Thursday, December 22, 2005 11:54 PM

ETHAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Giantevilhead:
The simplest explanation is not always the most entertaining or compelling answer.

"I swallowed a bug." -River Tam



But sometimes it is. Some of the best Hitchcock works when the audience out-thinks itself.

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Friday, December 23, 2005 12:57 AM

GIANTEVILHEAD


True, but in those movies the set up is always far more complicated than needed to reach the conclusion which makes the more simplistic answer more compelling. So far the set up for the mystery of Book's past is very limited, there are very few clues to his past.

"I swallowed a bug." -River Tam

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Friday, December 23, 2005 2:37 AM

DISKA


my dvd hasnt shipped out to me yet so i obviously need to re-watch it as soon as i can because for some reason i seem to have totally skipped on books line "river...believe in her" god i feel like a gorram fool now, but i guess it makes sense. i need to watch that scene again

"Dear diary: Today I was pompous and my sister was crazy. Today we were kidnapped by hill folk, never to be seen again. It was the best day ever."

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Friday, December 23, 2005 5:34 AM

LOOKATTHATBIRD


There are a lot of clues pointing to Book being an operative. But if he were still working why would he let Simon and River sit around for so long instead of turning them in? If he had abandoned his work for sheparding, why would they still take him into the alliaince hospital? I don't remember if the alliaince interveiwed him along with the others in Bushwacked. If so, why would they interveiw someone they already knew? I think Book's past is darker, and more interesting than that. I really want an explination for his line in object in space, "I don't give half a hoot wether your innocent or not.", twords River. Again, if he was simply talking about her being a fugitve and returning her to Blue Sun, why would he never make an atempt?

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Friday, December 23, 2005 6:17 AM

VAPAGANHEART


Now that's a great thought. That would give greater meaning to the exchange with Simon when Book tells him the significance of Serenity. It would also explain the ID getting him prompt attention....hmmm I like this thought. It would explain the attraction to the name Serenity when Kaylee is talking with him. It covers everything nicely. Yes I think you have truly great thought here!

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Friday, December 23, 2005 9:04 AM

DEWFPD


I completely agree with you. I feel that as operatives retire, they go into hiding as shepards. I feel as though Operative Coda will become a shepard..and if another movie or series were to be made, the crew may run into him again...as a shepard.

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Wednesday, December 28, 2005 8:01 AM

EBONEZER


Quote:

Originally posted by dewfpd:
I completely agree with you. I feel that as operatives retire, they go into hiding as shepards. I feel as though Operative Coda will become a shepard..and if another movie or series were to be made, the crew may run into him again...as a shepard.



I stand firmly by the belief that the Operative killed himself for his sins. That was a strong personal belief of his, I think he applied it to himself. He may have been planning to do so anyway after the compleation of his mission, after all, he was not helping to build a world without sin so that he could live in it.

Although its still a possibilty that operatives become Shepards, I suppose. If you can no longer 'believe' for the good of the allmighty Aliance, might as well belive for Jesus.

Or I guess its a possibility that if ex-ops then became Missionaries on backwater moons, they could spread 'gospel' of the Aliance by disguising it as the gospel of jesus. Or something.

Anyway, back to Book. He could have been an operative at one point, who 'believed' in the Aliance without asking questions, and then found out what he was really fighting for. Might have been Miranda, but I doubt it. The Aliance is full of sneaky bastards doing evil things. Could be Book discovered something worse. Anyway, he got out. And he did it in such a way as that he didn't make any enimies in the process, which is why he got medical care after they saw his ID card. Cause Book is a smarty pants like that.

And as to his final words "River...believe in her." He said earlier that Mal had to belive in something keeping in mind that Mal should believe in River. Book was hoping that Mal would stumble upon this on his own (and maybe he had) but before he died, Book had to make surehe knew. Book probably started beliving in River a long time ago, he spent time with her, didn't he? Maybe something happened while he was on the ship to make him believe in her. Something we never saw on the show.

Anyway, i'm late for work now.

-----------------------------------

Four out of five gynecologists recommend calling Ebo a girl.

http://www.livejournal.com/users/yeabig/

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