Gender associations to fans of Joss Whedon series by EasyMark

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Gender associations to fans of Joss Whedon series

POSTED BY: EASYMARK
UPDATED: Friday, December 9, 2005 05:13
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Wednesday, December 7, 2005 3:51 PM

Watched Serenity, got hooked, line, and sinker for the Firefly series, and been slowly working my way through Buffy and Angel. Shame that I hadn't known how entertaining Joss Whedon was sooner.

Although I heard of Buffy before, my naive notions dismissed the show as something targeted for little girls who wanted to relate more to the hero (or in this case, heroine) in an action/adventure setting. Think I might have channel surfed by back then and caught Xander playing an adolescently stereotypical "boys-are-so-stupid" motif and figured the show wasn't for me.

Now that I've caught some of the other episodes, some of the story elements have been quite impressive and I took back any negative thoughts I had about the series. But it did get me thinking though...

Buffy lasted for 7 seasons, Angel 5, and Firefly, well... I'll save my whining for later. Point is that Buffy lasted much longer and one reason might be the gender of the protagonist. Having a female at the head of the show could have female fans subconsciously relating better to the series and certain male fans might be pulled in, um, subconsciously enjoying other "superficial" factors.

But back to Firefly, I'm curious about the gender ratio of the fans. Can anyone who attended one of the conferences give me a ballpark figure? And also to the female fans who lurk here, do you find it tougher to relate to Firefly compared to, for instance, Buffy? Main cast, 5 males, 4 females... does it make a difference? For anyone to respond, do you think it's easier for men to get hooked on Firefly versus women?

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Wednesday, December 7, 2005 4:02 PM

NYWOE

I can't answer your first question, but I'll answer your second.

Quote:
And also to the female fans who lurk here, do you find it tougher to relate to Firefly compared to, for instance, Buffy?

No, I don't find Buffy easier to relate to than Firefly. In fact, Firefly seems more "real," while Buffy and Angel seem more "fantasy." I love it all, but Firefly is the one that made me a frothing obsessed fan. :)

When they were on the air, I liked Buffy more than Angel, but now I see them on the same level. Maybe it's a maturity thing...

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Wednesday, December 7, 2005 4:08 PM

PSOLARIS

Well, being a female I'll put in my two cents.

I have no problems relating to Firefly what so ever. I actually never got into watching Buffy much to tell the truth. I am a big fan of Joss Whedon's writing style, but the series just never did it for me. Some of the storyline was interesting, but perhaps it was because I was not a fan of Sarah Michelle Gellar's acting style. I'm not saying she's a bad actor, most people like her acting...I just don't.

I find it easier to relate to those on FF, and perhaps it's because I find I have something in common with each of the characters. Whether it's Simon's protectiveness of his sister (I have a younger brother that I'm fiercly protective of), or the fact that I tend to get my point across much the way Mal does, and I'm just as much a perv as Jayne, but as level headed and loyal as Zoe...I could go on. I think that if the show got it's fair shot, it could very well have lasted much longer. I honestly don't know what the male to female ratio on this website is, but it'd be interesting to find out.

Personally, I don't think that this show would have much of a problem getting a female fanbase. It'd be interesting to see what others think tho.

Psolaris

"Ten percent of nuthin' is...let me do the math here...nuthin' into nuthin'...carry the nuthin'"

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Wednesday, December 7, 2005 4:10 PM

NANDY

I find Firefly easier to relate to but it has nothing to do with gender. I don't think gender is as big of a deal to girls as it is to guys. I think guys have a much harder time looking up to and relating women as heroes. I don't think that it's really an issue for women.
ex. Harry Potter? vs. any book with a female lead... also the reason JK Rowling used her initial on the book... because boys wouldn't read a book written by a female author... but girls will read book written by a guy about a guy.

"You know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I go get and beat you with until you understand who's in ruttin' command here."

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Wednesday, December 7, 2005 4:17 PM

STAKETHELURK

These are some interesting questions you raised, but I don't necessarily think they were much of a factor in any series' longevity. Remember, Buffy nearly got the axe in Season Five. It was only through the unprecedented and near-miraculous intervention of UPN that the series was able to go on for another two seasons. Because the venture proved unprofitable for UPN, they were unwilling to repeat it when Angel ended up in a similar situation--thus, Angel only lasted five seasons. It's appeal to female viewers didn't have much to do with it (for the record, Angel's ratings were up that season when almost all the other WB series were bleeding viewers; why the network chose to kill the show remains something of a mystery). And as for Firefly, it's basically clear that Fox wanted to kill it long before it ever aired and could be embraced or rejected by viewers of either gender.

As for fan gender ratio, I have heard it reported time and time again that the largest bloc of Whedon fans (of any series) are women in their thirties or older. I think it's Joss' writing more than any particular grouping of characters that attracts this demographic (of which I am not a part).

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Wednesday, December 7, 2005 6:27 PM

JETFLAIR

For my part, I have only seen one season of Buffy, and it didn't grab me.

I'm a girl, and the male cast members really hooked me. From the first glimpse, I found Mal incredibly attractive, both physically and character-wise. He's the most appealing leading man I've ever seen. I also find Wash and Simon to be very attractive, engaging characters and I like Book. I love to hate Jayne.

Kaylee is my favorite girl of the cast and she too helped hook me on the show because I enjoy her character so much. Zoe's awesome too because I like to think of myself as a worrior woman sometimes:)

But the guys did it for me. Make River the lead instead of Mal, and it would have been just another show.

____________________________________________________________________

"Love keeps her in the air when she oughta fall down, tells you when she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home." .......We love you, captain.

"This is the captain. We may experience some slight turbulence and then.....explode"

Zoe necklace replica and other jewelry at www.exoticcatz.com/fireflyshop , Firefly/Serenity images at www.exoticcatz.com/fireflyphotos>

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Wednesday, December 7, 2005 9:24 PM

NYWOE

Quote:
I don't think gender is as big of a deal to girls as it is to guys.

That's a good point. As long as a show has both strong men and strong women somewhere in there, I'll be able to relate.

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Thursday, December 8, 2005 5:56 AM

QUEENOFTHENORTH

I appreciate the fact that BtVS has a female lead, and a strong one at that, but I don't think it makes it easier to relate to. I love Firefly just as much. One of my favorite things about Joss is that, unlike a lot of male writers, he doesn't have a problem writing in both physically and emotionally strong women. In fact, he seems to make a point of it. But I liked the men in Firefly too

. So I don't think it really makes a difference for women.

"Well, then, I believe perhaps that I am, in fact, completely screwed."

Like books? Go to this thread: http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=14862
to find out how to buy mine!

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Thursday, December 8, 2005 6:48 AM

CLIOMUSE

My personal recruiting experience suggests that women are probably more attracted to "Firefly" and *Serenity* than men. It is character driven rather than action driven, and this is a draw for many women. All the characters are strong in their own way. If you look at the IMDB user ratings, women rate *Serenity* higher than men do in most of the age categories.

I believe the show didn't find an audience because Fox was marketing it to teenage boys, many of whom were probably dissapointed when they saw it (though I have recruited a few teenage boys into the Browncoat fold.) Based on the ads, I would never have watched it if my husband, who is a teenage boy at heart, hadn't insisted. If they had marketed it to 30+-year-old women it might have been a different story. "Buffy" came out when the WB was new and it was allowed to find its audience. Fox was looking for an instant hit with "Firefly."

"Firefly" turned me into a "Buffy" and "Angel" viewer. I would never have considered watching either show if it hadn't been for the magic of the more grown-up and "real" "Firefly."

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Thursday, December 8, 2005 7:08 AM

ZOID

A guy's viewpoint, for what it's worth:

I was amazed by the characters on Firefly, male and female. While archetypal, they weren't caricatures. The 'he-men' exhibited doubt, weaknesses, fear, and occasionally self-loathing (just like us 'real' men do). The 'farm girl' was sexually uninhibited. The 'whore' was introverted. The 'warrior woman' wanted a child, fathered by a man she clearly loved (I'm still grieving over that).

And then -- of course -- JW and his brilliant Mutant Enemy team revealed all that depth of character through the words and actions of the players, who gave excellent performances themselves. For those reasons, Firefly was the best show in the history of television, sez I.

Buffy and Angel: not so much. I'm not big on Hallowe'en costumes. Some of the story and dialogue were engaging; but I could never lose myself in it because of the bogus prosthetics...

Just my 2p (approximately 3 cents),

zoid
_________________________________________________

"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'

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Thursday, December 8, 2005 7:14 AM

LOOKATTHATBIRD

I'm a woman and I love Firefly. Most of my friends who are into firefly are women too.I always thought Buffy was kind of silly. Even though I was a teenage girl when it was on, I never related to her in the least. All the characters on Firefly, regardless of gender, seem very real. They all react to situations the way certain kinds of people would. I think that people connect to characters that behave kind of like they would, so it's like seeing a part of yourself in that far off world. You experience things you can't in real life and you feel for the characters you relate to. I don't relate to characters just because they look like me and deffinately not just because they are girls. Zoe is probably the least relatable character for me. I relate more to Simon, Wash, River, and Mal.
And whoever posted about how men find gender more important than women, great point. It's kind of taboo for a man to look up to a female character as a hero or a role model.

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Thursday, December 8, 2005 7:34 AM

GIXXER

No gender thingummybobs here. I'm an equal opportunities geek.

I look up to Zoe and Mal as heroes in the conventional sense.

I look up to Inara and Book because they are OK in my book.

I look up to Simon and Wash because they have no bravado, but have an inner heroic steely quality that they call on when they need.

I look up to River because...well, blimey. Where do you start?

I look up to Kaylee because she's a little sunbeam.

I look up to Jayne. It's murder on the neck, mind...

Your Buffies and Angels didn't engage me as much, though. Rose, Doctor Ecclestone Who and Captain Jack really got me.

G

There'll be poems and songs.

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Thursday, December 8, 2005 7:52 AM

ZOID

Lookatthatbird wrote:

Quote:
...And whoever posted about how men find gender more important than women, great point. It's kind of taboo for a man to look up to a female character as a hero or a role model.

As a man, I strongly disagree with this statement, at least from my viewpoint. The problem with most female heroes is that they are so badly drawn, or as I put it previously, they are caricatures of the heroic characteristics of women. I believe there is heroism in real women, as Joss clearly also believes. So, I like the female characters of Firefly because they are 'real', and they reflect the strength of the women we meet everyday. They are heroes to me, and I look up to them as role models of the characterisics all human beings should strive to cultivate in their own personalities.

I have no problem relating to/accepting a strong female character. But ya gotta give me one first. Joss gave me at least 7 in Firefly. Other writers -- whether male or female -- seem to have problems delivering even one.

Respectfully,

zoid

P.S.
The 7 I refer to above, in the order they pop into my head, for whatever reason:

Zoe
Kaylee
Inara
River
YoSaffBridge
Nandi
Our Girl, Serenity (she takes a lickin' and keeps on tickin')

-zed
_________________________________________________

"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'

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Thursday, December 8, 2005 8:51 AM

MALSGIRL

I've been with Firefly from the start, but I came to Buffy late and haven't yet made the leap to Angel. I had similar impressions of Buffy, that it was a silly show for silly teenage girls. While, I was a teenage girl I didn't consider myself silly. Then one day I'm channel surfing, because there's nothing on (so what's new) and I decide to finally watch some Buffy and I was hooked. I don't think it was ever a matter of gender. In fact for the first year or so I really didn't like Buffy herself (I've very much gotten over that)but it was Giles and Spike that drew me in.

I don't watch shows because they have strong females to relate to. I'm a fan of several shows with strong females though (SG1, Farscape to name a couple). I watch shows because I like the characters in general and I will admit, it is generally the male characters that draw me in. I have to agree with JetFlair

Quote:
But the guys did it for me. Make River the lead instead of Mal, and it would have been just another show.

Mal made the show, he was the reason I tuned in after the Train Job, he was the reason I gave the show more time. If I hadn't attached to Mal so much I might have missed this great show. And as I watched it more and more my affection for the other characters grew and came to very near the level of my affection for Mal.

In general I would have to say I don't watch shows because I relate to the characters, because I see myself in them. I watch because I like them. Often because they aren't like me or anyone I know. I don't know an men like Mal, so loyal and heroic. What I wouldn't give to be Kaylee, to be under Mals wing like that. Well I have to be off, so that'll just have to be it for now.

_____________________________

"You will keep a civil tongue in that mouth or I will sew it shut."
~Mal to Jayne

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Thursday, December 8, 2005 9:00 AM

MICKEY6

I'm female, and like all of Whedon's series. My brother is the one who got me hooked on Buffy in season four (I'd watched the first ten episodes or so of the series, and wasn't terribly impressed, but by season four, it had improved by miles), and he also hooked me on Firefly.

Firefly's failure wasn't due to having too many men, or being hard to relate to for women, it was due to Fox advertising it as something it wasn't, screwing up the show order right off the bat, and mucking with the air dates so nobody could even find it to watch by the end. If Buffy or Angel had premiered on a big network instead of WB, they would have been killed within their first seasons, too. Network TV just isn't designed to let shows find their viewers; only on the upstarts are small successes given a chance to turn into big ones.

.....
It takes a village to raise a child, and an army to raze a village.

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Thursday, December 8, 2005 9:55 AM

MAL4PREZ

I'm a woman who has enjoyed all Whedonesque shows. For me, it's not about strong female/hot male leads as much as how no one is stuck in a stereotype based on gender, intelligence, strength, sexuality, whatever. Joss creates these complex characters who do unexpected things, and yet they always feel real and true to themselves. If he does have a stereotypical character (or storyline) show up, it's usually as a source of ridicule. (He's so good at that...)

I can see that Buffy had more appeal to women, but I always thought FF would have a bigger male audience. I'm curious what the split is.

Ask Dr. Science ... he knows more than you do.
"I have a Master's degree ... in science!"

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Thursday, December 8, 2005 10:16 AM

HOGWAFFLE

As a woman (23) i find all three shows easy to relate too I think its more in Joss's writing that the characters, because he makes the characters people, not charactures. I mean most women dont have a problem relating to men in real life. Do they? Lol dont answer that i am not even raising that issue. But i am curious the age span of fans. Most of the people who i know who watch it are oh 18-28 plus my older family members, but i feel like when i saw it in the theater there were a lot of like 40 and up people. Any input? Include those you know who are older cause i mean most grandmas arent logging on here=)

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Thursday, December 8, 2005 10:29 AM

MINIME

Well, I'm a girl (I feel like I'm back in primary school - elementary or grade school for Americans out there)... and I was a Buffy/Angel fan from way back. From even before it became an ok thing to be a fan of. In fact, it was because I am such a fan that I bought the Firefly DVD series without knowing anything about it other than what was written on the DVD packaging and the brief comments Mr Whedon had made in DVD commentaries on Angel. (No Firefly on TV in Australia until after it had been on DVD for about 9 months.)
Anyway, I think it was the Willow character that drew me. As a wimpy long-standing nerd myself, I loved that character. Different kind of strength. By the time she became stronger in the more conventional sense of the word, I was hooked on plot and character and dialogue.
Interesting discussion you guys have going here.

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Thursday, December 8, 2005 11:47 AM

VIOLETRIX

i haven't gone to a conference, since i'm new to this, so i can't answer the first question. though someday i'd like to go to a con.
as for the second question, i'm almost 29 so i've always had a little bit of a hard time relating to buffy, since it's always been a bit younger than me. but relating to firefly was no problem. you know what it was, initially? the size of jayne's arms. jayne appealed to me on a completely basic, animal level so i kept watching the show. i wish i could say that it was some philosophical, existential draw that made me buy the dvd set, but it was just adam baldwin as jayne. the rest came later.

i know i'm shallow. i can live with that.

http://violetrix.blogspot.com

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Thursday, December 8, 2005 11:58 AM

EARTHSHINE

I'm of the female persuasion and 41(everyone in the grocery store knows thanks to my 7yr old, why not the big damn fans?). I got into Firefly thru netflix-never saw it mangled on fox. I love the show not because of any of the gender "roles" but because of the excellent acting, engaging story lines, writing that treated me like an adult w/ 1/2 a functioning brain. ie: no "resets" as if a consequence in a prior ep. just didnt happen, so you really must start at the begining to get all the nuances. That fact that they mirror that life really does have many shades of grey and colors of gose and isnt a happily ever after fairy tale. Course the tight pants, rugged good looks and muscles didnt hurt in the least..This was also the case for me with Farscape (somedays you feel like aliens somedays you dont..)

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Thursday, December 8, 2005 1:31 PM

CBY

Quote:
Originally posted by Earthshine: I got into Firefly thru netflix-never saw it mangled on fox. I love the show not because of any of the gender "roles" but because of the excellent acting, engaging story lines, writing that treated me like an adult w/ 1/2 a functioning brain. ie: no "resets" as if a consequence in a prior ep.

Same here, except I am quite male ;-) It's just a damn clever and cool show. No matter what gender you are.

Frankly, I think this whole gender discussion is somewhat pointless. The show was not meant for women or men or both - it was just meant to be a great show after all. And that it is.

Chris

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Friday, December 9, 2005 2:55 AM

DISKA

i think its a really interesting point to raise. ive always been slightly intimidated by sci fi shows and fandoms because i automatically assume a higher male to female ration so ive tended to stay away.

yet i got into buffy and angel no problem, i didnt even think of it as a cult/horror/fantasy type show i just watched it and fell in love with it.
but i have to admit the reason why i only got into firefly this year was becasue id stayed away thinking it was in the sci fi genre and so wasnt for me.

then i actually watched the damned thing and didnt even think of it as a sci fi thing, i jsut loved all the characters. the humnour and character development is typical joss whedon so it wasnt massively different to anything im used to and got into it so easily.

id kinda assumed the fandom for firefly/serenity would be mostly male though beacuse of the genre. boy was i wrong. i attended the serenity con a few weeks ago and was really suprised to see such a diverse range of people. all kindsa ages and mixrd pretty equally between male and female. obviously people are attracted to different aspects of the show, but it was cool to see such a mix.

as for fandom being male dominated, that tends to be a bad stereotype. with most of the fandoms ive encountered its pretty mixed with actually quite a lot of girls getting into it and organising things

sorry for rambling

"Dear diary: Today I was pompous and my sister was crazy. Today we were kidnapped by hill folk, never to be seen again. It was the best day ever."

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Friday, December 9, 2005 4:54 AM

FOLLOWMAL

Quote:
Originally posted by jetflair:

I'm a girl, and the male cast members really hooked me. From the first glimpse, I found Mal incredibly attractive, both physically and character-wise. He's the most appealing leading man I've ever seen.
But the guys did it for me. Make River the lead instead of Mal, and it would have been just another show.

jetflair said it best for me... Mal made me look, Mal made me stay. The story and characters are the reason I'm still here. I fell in love with Mal and the rest.

Mal- "Yeah, but she's our witch. So cut her the hell down."

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Friday, December 9, 2005 5:13 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by CBY:
Frankly, I think this whole gender discussion is somewhat pointless. The show was not meant for women or men or both - it was just meant to be a great show after all. And that it is.

Chris

Welcome Chris! And I agree with you, whether it's Mal in Firefly/Serenity, or Max in Dark Angel, I identify with a well written and interesting character, gender is relativly meaningless.

Metrosexual Chrisisall

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