GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

New Firefly fan. Comments about Serenity.

POSTED BY: DANTHEMAN
UPDATED: Sunday, October 23, 2005 12:42
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 2507
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Friday, October 21, 2005 4:54 AM

DANTHEMAN


I never saw or was interested in the show before seeing commercials for Serenity. Then I went to see Serenity on the second weekend it was out and loved it. I liked it so much that I had to check out Firefly.

Now that I'm through half of the season, I realize what a huge mistake Serenity was. Joss should've never made the show into the movie. He should've tried to get it to another TV network, maybe HBO or something else. Instead with Serenity he ripped the heart out of the Firefly and even if they decide to continue it now, it would never be the same.

Another problem that I have with Fox is why or who mismanaged the show when it first aired? The Train Job is my least favorite episode. Not only do they give it a bad time slot, they don't promote it and they start off with the Train Job?

I haven't liked a show this much since Buffy ended, unfortunately it seems like it had a premature death.

I'm still hoping that SciFi or another network will buy the rights (like it happened with Buffy) and that Firely will continue. Serenity was just a big mistake even though I didn't realize it when I've seen it first.


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Friday, October 21, 2005 7:14 AM

THELURKER


Quote:

He should've tried to get it to another TV network, maybe HBO or something else. Instead with Serenity he ripped the heart out of the Firefly and even if they decide

He did try to get the show moved, and I disagree that the heart was ripped out in Serenity, though I can sympathize with those who think so. Had the show continued on, much of what happened in the movie would have happened by the end of the second season.

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Friday, October 21, 2005 7:25 AM

STAKETHELURK


Quote:

Joss should've never made the show into the movie. He should've tried to get it to another TV network, maybe HBO or something else.
I agree with The Lurker on both counts. Joss tried to get a network, any network, to pick it up. He fought long and hard for that, but they all turned him down. The movie was a last resort to finish telling the story he'd set out to tell in "Firefly." If Joss had been able to continue the show on TV, he would've--but he couldn't, so he continued it in another medium. I also disagree that the heart was ripped out, I feel the film was a fine continuation--though of course more episodes would've been better. But, I've got no problem with those who feel otherwise.

After all, the movie was all about the right to be wrong.

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Friday, October 21, 2005 7:59 AM

CUB


For whatever it's worth, I agree with the original poster on all of his points about the movie and the show. And I think the fact that Firefly is doing so well on the Sci-Fi Channel right now shows that the audience for the original product is out there.

---

"If wishes were horses, we'd all be eatin' steak."

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Friday, October 21, 2005 8:16 AM

SEVREN


Why exactly was Serenity a big mistake?

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Friday, October 21, 2005 8:33 AM

HANOVERFIST


I have to agree that Serenity is a big disappointment.

What got me hooked on the show in the first place was that it had heart. The characters and their backstories were deep. The interplay between them was so very interesting. (As we rewatched the series before watching Serenity my wife said some of her favorite moments were the times that Mal's gaze would linger on Inara when she did not know it. Quiet, touching, and heartful.)

In the movie the characters just seem ridiculous charactitures of themselves. I mean, Mal sucker-punched Simon twice in the pilot epsode (which I think is MUCH better than the BDM) and yet in Serenity he just lets Simon deck him and be insubordinate without so much as a b!tchslap in return? Please.

Not to mention the fact that the central premise to the movie was just lame. The Reaver origin story was just weak. Maybe the lesson here is that Joss belongs on TV. He writes great dialogue, but the writing when it actually comes to plot is pretty weak. (i.e. The Train Job)

This is what makes me sad. I was never a Buffy or Angel fan. Tried to watch Buffy, but I could not manage to sit through even a single episode. My wife and I rented the first season of Angel and I don't think we could even make it through two episodes before we returned it. But I LOVED Firefly.

Maybe it is because Joss is a soap opera writer. Because of my personal tastes maybe I find a sci-fi sopa opera easier to stomach than a vampire/demon soap-opera. I don't know. But I do know that after watching the BDM and listening to Joss' nonsense on the Objects in Space commentary I am not terribly excited about his future projects (or the future of the Firefly universe, for that matter).

I guess I am just very disappointed and sad. I just keep thinking to myself that it did not have to turn out this way. I also wish that Joss had been able to see a way to bring the BDM into this world without killing Firefly. I also know that I am not the only fan who feels the same way.

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Friday, October 21, 2005 9:42 AM

THELURKER


I just wanted to remind people that Joss' original TV pilot had to be rewritten under network orders and that they told him to make Mal 'more likeable.' It is possible that those who didn't like the movie may not have liked the series very much if Joss had been allowed to do Firefly on his own terms.

Food for thought.

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Friday, October 21, 2005 9:43 AM

MALSWAY


Liked the show. Liked the movie. Guess I'm just easy to please.

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Friday, October 21, 2005 9:59 AM

DREAMTROVE


It will never be the same. Joss never wants it to be the same. If it were the same, it would be boing, uninnovative, star trek.

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Friday, October 21, 2005 10:02 AM

SEVREN


Guess I am too. I still have not seen any discrepancies between the show and movie. For those upset at Wash's death, sure its sad. But its emotionally charging at the same time. If nobody ever died, there would be no risk in fighting. There would be nothing to lose, so anything gained is that much weaker and it wouldn't mean as much. It was sudden, but death often is. This movie has more heart than anything else I've seen in a long time. That's because the writer loves this 'verse, loves that ship, and loves those characters.

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Friday, October 21, 2005 10:09 AM

STEVE580


Quote:

Originally posted by HanoverFist:
Not to mention the fact that the central premise to the movie was just lame. The Reaver origin story was just weak. Maybe the lesson here is that Joss belongs on TV.



Eh...you know that would have been revealed on the TV show too, right? It's the plot-twist he had in mind all along; and it was far from "lame," IMO.
-Steve

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Friday, October 21, 2005 10:12 AM

MALSWAY


Quote:

Originally posted by Sevren:
For those upset at Wash's death, sure its sad. But its emotionally charging at the same time.


Also, I don't believe Wash's death was an arbitrary decision on Joss's part. I'm fairly certain Alan Tudyk wanted out of playing the part (I've read it a couple of places online), so this was a good end for his character.

Alan is quoted as saying the following about Wash's death:
I kind of also liked that it's not one of those deaths where I'm going, "Go on without me! I'll hold 'em off for as long as possible. You save yourselves, I love you sweetheart." Instead, it's "Whoopee, I just landed the spaceship!" Dead. Joss has a talent for sticking large wooden things through people's hearts.

Not 100% sure Alan actually said that, but I agree with it.

Besides, on a bit of a more realistic note, do you really think that a ragtag group of rebels can go up against the Alliance and the reavers without losing anyone?

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Friday, October 21, 2005 12:25 PM

HANOVERFIST


Quote:

Originally posted by Steve580:
Quote:

Originally posted by HanoverFist:
Not to mention the fact that the central premise to the movie was just lame. The Reaver origin story was just weak. Maybe the lesson here is that Joss belongs on TV.



Eh...you know that would have been revealed on the TV show too, right? It's the plot-twist he had in mind all along; and it was far from "lame," IMO.
-Steve



You may be right, but that doesn't make it any less lame. What would have made up for it (if it was revealed in the series) was the intervening years of character development. In Firefly, plot always took a backseat to character development. Let's face it, none of his actual stories (in terms of plot) are mind-bending. It is how he develops the characters and tells their stories one drop at a time that is addictive and ingenious.

In a movie, however, unless it is a serious drama or an arthouse flick, plot comes first. In this respect it just makes the inadequacies of the Reaver explanation all that more glaring. You do not have the luxury of having years of fascinating characters to make up for the weak writing. Come on, big experiment backfires on its creators? I think I read that in high school and it was called Frankenstein. The backfire wasn't even that creative.

Not to mention that the Reavers just don't make sense. I know this dead horse has been thoroughly beaten, but I just still don't buy a society completely make up of psychotic sociopaths. Look how they fight...like a bunch of deranged idiots. Why haven't they turned on each other in the intervening years and wiped themselves out? Also, how does a planet (Miranda) just stay hidden? It took the BDHs all of 5 minutes to figure out where it was and plot a course. Planets aren't exactly small, you may have noticed. These are some of the reasons why I thought the twist was lame.

The movie just came off as a glorified episode. (And not a very good one at that.)

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Friday, October 21, 2005 12:38 PM

3HEADEDMONKEY


Quote:

Originally posted by dantheman:
Joss should've never made the show into the movie. He should've tried to get it to another TV network, maybe HBO or something else. Instead with Serenity he ripped the heart out of the Firefly and even if they decide to continue it now, it would never be the same.



you didnt think he tried to get it on other networks? he shopped it around for a while. a movie is better than nothing.

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Friday, October 21, 2005 3:03 PM

STEVE580


Quote:

Originally posted by HanoverFist:
Come on, big experiment backfires on its creators? I think I read that in high school and it was called Frankenstein. The backfire wasn't even that creative.

Not to mention that the Reavers just don't make sense. I know this dead horse has been thoroughly beaten, but I just still don't buy a society completely make up of psychotic sociopaths. Look how they fight...like a bunch of deranged idiots. Why haven't they turned on each other in the intervening years and wiped themselves out? Also, how does a planet (Miranda) just stay hidden? It took the BDHs all of 5 minutes to figure out where it was and plot a course. Planets aren't exactly small, you may have noticed. These are some of the reasons why I thought the twist was lame.



Hm...I dunno, I thought the twist was fairly original - I didn't see it coming. I mean, adding chemicals to the air to calm people, which ends up calming them to death...I haven't seen that anywhere before. Obviously, if you boil the plot down to its simplest form, it's nothing new - your same description (an experiment that backfires) could be used to describe *most* movies.

And the Reaver thing - that was a concept introduced in the series. That's like saying the movie is implausible because Serenity's interior doesn't match up with the external CGI shots.


I mean, I can't argue with your opinion; it's just, the points you raised were things from the show, that were merely re-employed in the movie.
-Steve

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Sunday, October 23, 2005 3:39 AM

BKIVEY


"She is starting to damage my calm."

I don't really see what the big deal is here. This is a story. IMHO a well-told story. As they say in English class, there are only four types of stories: Man v. man, man v. nature, man v. himself, and man v. God. Stories are the way people relate experiences to each other. In a mass-market story people will take what they want and discard the rest.

I enjoyed the movie, and am enjoying the series as it airs on Sci-Fi. I expect that I will buy the DVD of the movie and the series. Not to make too fine a point, but it is a TV show and a movie. Make more of it, and I'll send River after you.


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Sunday, October 23, 2005 5:42 AM

FRUNK


Quote:

Originally posted by HanoverFist:
You may be right, but that doesn't make it any less lame. What would have made up for it (if it was revealed in the series) was the intervening years of character development. In Firefly, plot always took a backseat to character development. Let's face it, none of his actual stories (in terms of plot) are mind-bending. It is how he develops the characters and tells their stories one drop at a time that is addictive and ingenious.

In a movie, however, unless it is a serious drama or an arthouse flick, plot comes first. In this respect it just makes the inadequacies of the Reaver explanation all that more glaring. You do not have the luxury of having years of fascinating characters to make up for the weak writing. Come on, big experiment backfires on its creators? I think I read that in high school and it was called Frankenstein. The backfire wasn't even that creative.



Hmm, I think you overrate the quality of the vast majority of the other movies that are out there, and the importance of plot. I can count on one hand the number of main-stream movies I've seen where I actually cared about the plot. Most movies have such lame plots that I have to stop thinking about them or else I'll walk out of the theater. I wouldn't say Serenity had a first rate plot, but it was a cut above the average. At least equal to the series which is enough for me.

Quote:

Originally posted by HanoverFist:
Not to mention that the Reavers just don't make sense. I know this dead horse has been thoroughly beaten, but I just still don't buy a society completely make up of psychotic sociopaths. Look how they fight...like a bunch of deranged idiots. Why haven't they turned on each other in the intervening years and wiped themselves out? Also, how does a planet (Miranda) just stay hidden? It took the BDHs all of 5 minutes to figure out where it was and plot a course. Planets aren't exactly small, you may have noticed. These are some of the reasons why I thought the twist was lame.

The movie just came off as a glorified episode. (And not a very good one at that.)



I agree the Reavers flying in space ships is a weak point, but not completely unbelievable. Some theories:

1. They have a pack mentality, other Reavers are part of the pack and they can cooperate with. Any other living being drives them mad.
2. If not in the presence of non-Reavers they gain a measure of sentience, enough to run a ship but just barely.

As for Miranda, the record of the planet wasn't completely expunged, but it was known that it was in Reaver space. That's enough to discourage most exploration, and the Alliance is actively limiting inquiry too.

All of this is beside the point though, it's beyond the scope of Firefly's focus. You might as well ask why they don't explain the engines on their spaceship or how they have gravity when flying in space. From actual physical reality these are both more pressing questions, but since it is science fiction we don't really worry about it.

The point of the show and the movie is the story of the crew, their survival or not and how they manage to keep flying despite the obstacles they encounter.

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Sunday, October 23, 2005 7:11 AM

GROUNDED


Quote:

Originally posted by HanoverFist:
But I do know that after watching the BDM and listening to Joss' nonsense on the Objects in Space commentary I am not terribly excited about his future projects



What's not to like about the OIS commentary? It's not often a writer goes into that kind of enlightening detail about his work. And it certainly wasn't nonsense.

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Sunday, October 23, 2005 8:06 AM

SAINTPROVERBIUS


Quote:

Originally posted by HanoverFist:
In the movie the characters just seem ridiculous charactitures of themselves. I mean, Mal sucker-punched Simon twice in the pilot epsode (which I think is MUCH better than the BDM) and yet in Serenity he just lets Simon deck him and be insubordinate without so much as a b!tchslap in return? Please.



I'm pretty sure Mal knew he deserved the punch because of what happenned during the robbery. After all, he did drag Simon's sister in to a bad situation even though Simon objected to it. Mal wasn't expecting the Reavers to show up, but these things happen when you're on the border moons. Not to mention Mal was quite an ass to Simon before they left for the robbery.

Oh, and Mal didn't exactly know Simon when he punched him during the pilot. The movie is eight months later and Simon has saved Mal's life on a few occations since that pilot.

Quote:

Not to mention the fact that the central premise to the movie was just lame. The Reaver origin story was just weak. Maybe the lesson here is that Joss belongs on TV. He writes great dialogue, but the writing when it actually comes to plot is pretty weak. (i.e. The Train Job)


The Train Job was fairly crappy, I agree. The Reaver origin wasn't the greatest thing in the world and would have been better if done through the course several episodes on TV. However, this is a movie and Joss only had two hours with which to pack everything in.

The Train Job was basically the same thing. He had to pack a two hour character introduction piece in with a heavy dose of action to make FOX happy. That said, Serenity beats the pants off Train Job.

I think the Reaver thing would have been a lot better if instead of the pax thing they'd gone with some sort of psychological experimentation on soldiers for the Unification War. Then again, the idea of making super soldiers that blow up in the face of the people trying to make them is a bit cliche. The pax thing is counter cliche, trying to bring an end to violence and end up doing the opposite.

Basically, I think it was just too short an explanation for it to be "great". The same thing goes for the Simon/Kaylee hook up, it was just too short.

Quote:

I guess I am just very disappointed and sad. I just keep thinking to myself that it did not have to turn out this way.


Yes, it did.

Quote:

I also wish that Joss had been able to see a way to bring the BDM into this world without killing Firefly.


He didn't.

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Sunday, October 23, 2005 9:57 AM

RIVER6213


Serenity was the 1st time I ever even heard of the Firefly 'verse and I loved it! It made me want to go and google Serenity when I got home from the movie, and that's when I found out about Firefly.

I like the captain; his character seemed strange and hard to place, but after watching the Firefly I series, I understood why. He was also very funny at certain points in the movie.

A couple of my favorite scenes with Mal (in the series) The episode where one of their old war buddies mails his dead body to them so they could take him home to his parents to be buried.

They do a flashback where I guess Zoe is explaining to this guy how a person should be on the battlefield; not seen. At at that moment, Mal comes into view screaming, laughing loud, yelling while mowing down some alliance soldiers with "You want some? Oh, you want some of this too?" Zoe turns around and says to the guys she talking too "some people have a differnt approach"

I laughed my azz off!

Another favorite scene with Mal comes off the 1st DVD, 1st episode of the series called Serenity when That alliance spy is holding a gun on Simon and Mal, right after Mal socked Simon thinking HE was the alliance stooge.

Mal looks up at the alliance guy when he realizes that he isnt the one the allince guy wants..its Simon, and as Mal slowly lowers his hands, he cocks his head and says "Is there a reward?" What makes this funny is that the light was shining up Mal's face, making him look like a very greedy, most opportunsitic person that ever existed. I laughed long time.

Anyway, back to Serenity the movie.

Zoe is the woman that all us women should be. she's tough, intelligent, and courageous, and at the same time has a heart as big as gold; she's no Reaver.

When Wash got killed, Zoe freaked for a few seconds, which is understandable(my heart went out to her), but then she got back in control, and that scene when those Reavers were attacking, I liked the way Zoe stood right there, holding her ground, firing round after round into the mass of Reavers, and when her shotgun emptied, she dropped it and went for a smaller weapon and kept firing, while moving TOWARDS the Reavers! I guess having the man you love get killed sort of makes you do such things

Kelly was funny and cute in the movie, but not as funny as when she was in the Firefly series; she lost some weight for the movie, and that took away from her pluckiness. It was almost like she was a different character in the movie.

Book was an interesting character, but he didnt really become totally interesting until I actually watched the series. In the movie he doesnt have a big role, so you really dont know much about him except that the crew seemed to care a lot about him.

I liked him a lot in the series. It was obvious that he was no mere shepard. I bet he was a general in the Alliance army during the war, and sent way too many people to their deaths that after the war was over, he decided to become a shepard, or he was an asssasin during the war. Just a guess.

Inarua was as beautiful as ever...I really like her, but I felt that her character was diminished in the movie; she was more ornamental (is that spelled right?) more than anything else, but I still like her; There something about her that makes me want to cry everytime I saw her in Firefly. What was she doing with the bow and arrows?

I liked some of Jayne's comments and jokes in the movie. I also liked the end when he was helping fight the Reavers, but I really never liked his character, and especially when I saw firefly, but I have to admit...I loved the Jaynes Town episode in the series; it was the only time I felt compassion for Jayne, but if you ask me, they should have spaced hiz azz long ago, but I hear there are people in this forum that love him, so I had better shut up.

I liked Wash a lot in the movie. I thought he was so funny and very sarcastic....very human he was, and I jumped out of my chair at the movie when he got killed by those Reavers, but I also felt good knowing that his death was not in vain...he saved the ship and everyone on it.

Simon is an okay character, but I liked him better in the movie Serenity, than in the show Firefly; he seemed more mature, and a lot stronger.

And another thing about Simon. In the movie, he smacked the captain around a couple of times and got away with it! The captain didnt do anything but take it. In the series the captain would have kicked hiz azz. Mal was a more dangerous and unpredictable man in the series than in the movie....I noticed this after watching the entire firefly series.

River Tam was my favorite character in the movie and in the series. She's so sensitive and confused, and she can be very scary.

I actually felt sorry for the Reavers when River jumped into that room with them. They got their collective azzes kicked in by that 90 pound girl!

I also felt sorry for those alliance soldiers that showed up at the end, pointing their guns at the crew and asking the operative for the kill order, while River was standing there with those 2 swords; she could have killed all of them and they didnt even know it.

If there is a sequel, I think River should be the new pilot of Serenity. A pyschic pilot is the best kind of pilot, and it would make for an interesting story line with River flying the ship. It would take her out of her "wounded child" role, and by making her pilot, she would become invaluable to the crew; they would always be a little bit more safer now that they have a ships pyschic.


Over all, Serenity was a good movie for the new person. There was just the right amount of action, and a whole lot of unexplained, yet interesting things going on between the characters to make the new person WANT to go home and google it to find out more, and thats when they will find Firefly.

The music was good, the actors were great, and the fx was wonderful.

I give it 2 thumbs up.


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Sunday, October 23, 2005 12:08 PM

SERGEANTX


It didn't like the movie a whole lot myself, but I'm excited by the prospect that it might actually end up making another Firefly series more likely. The fact is it's drawing even more people to the series and the series itself continues to grow in popularity. It may be a blessing in disguise that Serenity was not a big hit.

If it had been, we'd surely be getting two more movie sequels. That might sound great at first, but it also means we surely wouldn't see Firefly on TV for a good long time. Perhaps the continued popularity of the DVD's will be enough to rekindle the series after all.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Sunday, October 23, 2005 12:42 PM

FOLLOWMAL



LOVED the show, LOVED the movie, and I'm not easy to please.....




FollowMal

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