GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Schism time!

POSTED BY: VISITINGMYINTENTIONS
UPDATED: Wednesday, October 19, 2005 10:50
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 5220
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Tuesday, October 18, 2005 6:48 PM

VISITINGMYINTENTIONS


We Firefly folk are all believers (dangerous...), but we all know the time has come for a great schism, between those who accept the BDM as canon and those who do not.

I think rather than fight on points that for the large part aren't arguable, we should acknowledge those differences formally. Hence I am proud to declare the first new branch. We don't have a name yet (any ideas?), but we do have our articles of faith:

1.) Firefly is divine, and Joss is its prophet.
2.) The series, the R. Tam sessions, and the deleted scene from OMR are true canon.
3) Shooting scripts and Dead or Alive could be argued for.
4.) The BDM and the Dark Horse comics are NOT canon.
(I haven't seen the RPG yet, so I don't know about that.)
5.) FOX is the anti-Joss.

Now I declare every single person who does not agree with me a heretic, doomed to an afterlife where every single good show is mistreated then summarily cancelled by FOX network.

Anyone want to join my sect, or form another, so we can have religious wars and inquisitions and all that fun?

---------------------------------------------------
Early: Where'd she go?

Simon: I can't keep track of her when she's NOT incorporeally possessing a spaceship, don't look at me --

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Wednesday, October 19, 2005 1:44 AM

DONCOAT


Can't we all just get along?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ain't about you, Jayne. It's about what they need.

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Wednesday, October 19, 2005 4:02 AM

RELFEXIVE


"Let's not be excluding people. That'd be rude." - JC



"My God - you're like a trained ape. Without the training."
"Come a day there won't be room for naughty men like us to slip about at all..."
I know the secret.
http://www.theshadowdepository.co.uk/index.htm

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Wednesday, October 19, 2005 4:28 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.


Quote:

Originally posted by VisitingMyIntentions:
We Firefly folk are all believers (dangerous...), but we all know the time has come for a great schism, between those who accept the BDM as canon and those who do not.

I think rather than fight on points that for the large part aren't arguable, we should acknowledge those differences formally. Hence I am proud to declare the first new branch. We don't have a name yet (any ideas?), but we do have our articles of faith:

1.) Firefly is divine, and Joss is its prophet.
2.) The series, the R. Tam sessions, and the deleted scene from OMR are true canon.
3) Shooting scripts and Dead or Alive could be argued for.
4.) The BDM and the Dark Horse comics are NOT canon.
(I haven't seen the RPG yet, so I don't know about that.)
5.) FOX is the anti-Joss.

Now I declare every single person who does not agree with me a heretic, doomed to an afterlife where every single good show is mistreated then summarily cancelled by FOX network.

Anyone want to join my sect, or form another, so we can have religious wars and inquisitions and all that fun?




The comics & "Serenity" are not canon? That's go sa my friend. Denying something you don't like don't make it any less real. It's Joss' 'verse & we are just visiting.

If accepting the comics & BDM makes me a heretic than call me a heretic.

__________________________________________

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

Richmond, VA & surrounding area Firefly Fans:

http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/richmondbrowncoats/

http://www.richmondbrowncoats.org


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Wednesday, October 19, 2005 4:38 AM

DAELUS


Quote:

Originally posted by DonCoat:
Can't we all just get along?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ain't about you, Jayne. It's about what they need.



I agree. Let's stop with all this talk of exclusive clubs and division in the fanbase. We're all browncoats (or Purplebellies. Whichever).

"My days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle."

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Wednesday, October 19, 2005 5:11 AM

KHYRON


Quote:

1.) Firefly is divine, and Joss is its prophet.



Okay, that tears it. This is war! While our sects may be identical on points 2 to 5, mine goes further on point 1 and says that Joss is more than merely a prophet - at the very least he's the second coming of Christ! So prepare to burn in Fox-hell, infidel!

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Wednesday, October 19, 2005 5:22 AM

BALLAD


Quote:

Originally posted by BrownCoat1:
Quote:

Originally posted by VisitingMyIntentions:
We Firefly folk are all believers (dangerous...), but we all know the time has come for a great schism, between those who accept the BDM as canon and those who do not.

I think rather than fight on points that for the large part aren't arguable, we should acknowledge those differences formally. Hence I am proud to declare the first new branch. We don't have a name yet (any ideas?), but we do have our articles of faith:

1.) Firefly is divine, and Joss is its prophet.
2.) The series, the R. Tam sessions, and the deleted scene from OMR are true canon.
3) Shooting scripts and Dead or Alive could be argued for.
4.) The BDM and the Dark Horse comics are NOT canon.
(I haven't seen the RPG yet, so I don't know about that.)
5.) FOX is the anti-Joss.

Now I declare every single person who does not agree with me a heretic, doomed to an afterlife where every single good show is mistreated then summarily cancelled by FOX network.

Anyone want to join my sect, or form another, so we can have religious wars and inquisitions and all that fun?




The comics & "Serenity" are not canon? That's go sa my friend. Denying something you don't like don't make it any less real. It's Joss' 'verse & we are just visiting.

If accepting the comics & BDM makes me a heretic than call me a heretic.

__________________________________________

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

Richmond, VA & surrounding area Firefly Fans:

http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/richmondbrowncoats/

http://www.richmondbrowncoats.org




I'm with my fellow VA Browncoat on this one. Just because part of the fanbase dislikes Serenity doesn't make it any less Joss's vision for the 'verse. In fact, I think it's MORE Joss's vision than the show was, thanks to less MEDDLING from execs. Mal was more the way Mal was supposed to be (TV Mal would have never left that guy to the Reavers)etc. etc.

So, On On Inquistion! (no one expects the Browncoats' Inquisition!)

--Ballad

They weren't cows inside. They were waiting to be, but they forgot. Now they see the sky, and they remember what they are.

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Wednesday, October 19, 2005 5:32 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by VisitingMyIntentions:
... and the deleted scene from OMR are true canon.


There's a deleted scene from Our Mrs Reynolds?? I'm sitting here in my Firefly jammies with my orange hat sipping coffee from my "Nothing In The 'Verse can Stop Me!" coffee mug and you're tellin' me there's a clip out there I haven't seen??!! GIVE!

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.net

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Wednesday, October 19, 2005 7:18 AM

VISITINGMYINTENTIONS


Quote:

Originally posted by pizmobeach:
Quote:

Originally posted by VisitingMyIntentions:
... and the deleted scene from OMR are true canon.


There's a deleted scene from Our Mrs Reynolds?? I'm sitting here in my Firefly jammies with my orange hat sipping coffee from my "Nothing In The 'Verse can Stop Me!" coffee mug and you're tellin' me there's a clip out there I haven't seen??!! GIVE!

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.net



It's in the special features of the DVD set, along with the rest deleted scenes. The others are mostly slightly more awkward versions of what was finally filmed, but the OMR scene was beloved by all, but cut for time considerations. I rather wish they had reinserted it on the DVD's, but if wishes were horses, then horsesteak and a 2nd season...

You honestly have Firefly jammies?? ::jealous::

---------------------------------------------------
Early: Where'd she go?

Simon: I can't keep track of her when she's NOT incorporeally possessing a spaceship, don't look at me --

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Wednesday, October 19, 2005 7:23 AM

DONCOAT


Quote:

Originally posted by VisitingMyIntentions:
Quote:

Originally posted by pizmobeach:
Quote:

Originally posted by VisitingMyIntentions:
... and the deleted scene from OMR are true canon.


There's a deleted scene from Our Mrs Reynolds??



It's in the special features of the DVD set, along with the rest deleted scenes.

I assume we're referring here to the scene with the line:

Select to view spoiler:


I'll knit!

Right?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ain't about you, Jayne. It's about what they need.

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Wednesday, October 19, 2005 7:30 AM

SEVREN


I know I've not been around these parts for very long, but I had to stopp and say something. Everyone is of course entitled to their opinion. I would in fact be quite concerend if everyone around here echoed the same thoughts and opinions. I would however, warn against splintering the forces of the Browncoats. Right now, unity if far more important than trying to identify what is canon and what is not. It's not like this movie was Highlander 2 (in relation to its continuity to the first movie, not the rest. ok, maybe that's not the best example). I don't see a lot of hard evidence that makes the movie contradict the series or the comics. They all came from the same source, and he knows where this is going (storywise) better than any of us. But I'm not going to force feed my humble opinion on anyone else. I just think that we will all suffer should your schism take place.

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Wednesday, October 19, 2005 7:35 AM

VISITINGMYINTENTIONS


Quote:

Originally posted by Ballad:
Quote:

Originally posted by BrownCoat1:

The comics & "Serenity" are not canon? That's go sa my friend. Denying something you don't like don't make it any less real. It's Joss' 'verse & we are just visiting.

If accepting the comics & BDM makes me a heretic than call me a heretic.

__________________________________________




I'm with my fellow VA Browncoat on this one. Just because part of the fanbase dislikes Serenity doesn't make it any less Joss's vision for the 'verse. In fact, I think it's MORE Joss's vision than the show was, thanks to less MEDDLING from execs. Mal was more the way Mal was supposed to be (TV Mal would have never left that guy to the Reavers)etc. etc.

So, On On Inquistion! (no one expects the Browncoats' Inquisition!)

--Ballad



Heretics!! That's it--you guys don't get to wear our pretty hats.

In my rejection of Serenity I would call it Joss-written fanfic. It's like if after writing down the Qur'an, Muhammed then decided to write a musical about the ten commandments. ...Well, similar, anyhow.

I like Serenity just fine (bitter Mal is quite interesting), but it varies from the series in significant ways, and so I choose to interpret it as merely fanfic poetic license and say Firefly has the true scoop on things. This approach has its definite plusses, such as being able to continue the Firefly series as normal (I'm a dreamer, see), and

Select to view spoiler:


have Wash and Book be alive, Book and Inara still on the ship (so far)

and that's a seductive idea to me.

I'm still looking for converts, though, or else my inquisition is going to get inquisited in the ass by you folk.

---------------------------------------------------
Early: Where'd she go?

Simon: I can't keep track of her when she's NOT incorporeally possessing a spaceship, don't look at me --

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Wednesday, October 19, 2005 7:50 AM

PYREFX


by that reasoning, you'd be condemning the last episode of the series too. You-know-who went splitsville before the movie. If anything you should be praising the movie for bringing you-know-who back.

*slaps on my ruttin' Heretic hat* it may not have a fuzzy ball on top, but it's got horns, and that's cool too.

"I call her Vera."

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Wednesday, October 19, 2005 7:56 AM

BELASERA


The term "Joss written fanfic" is insane. Truly, you must see that.
If we're talking canon, anything with the name of Joss on it is canon, so why not just treat it like all religions do, holler the parts you like and ignore those you don't.
Just consider Firelfy the old testemant and Serenity the new if you must. And remember...
You don't fix faith...it fixes you.

No more religiosity talk!

"I'll be in my bunk."

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Wednesday, October 19, 2005 7:59 AM

VISITINGMYINTENTIONS


Quote:

Originally posted by Sevren:
I know I've not been around these parts for very long, but I had to stopp and say something. Everyone is of course entitled to their opinion. I would in fact be quite concerend if everyone around here echoed the same thoughts and opinions. I would however, warn against splintering the forces of the Browncoats. Right now, unity if far more important than trying to identify what is canon and what is not. It's not like this movie was Highlander 2 (in relation to its continuity to the first movie, not the rest. ok, maybe that's not the best example). I don't see a lot of hard evidence that makes the movie contradict the series or the comics. They all came from the same source, and he knows where this is going (storywise) better than any of us. But I'm not going to force feed my humble opinion on anyone else. I just think that we will all suffer should your schism take place.



I can provide you with a list of where Serenity varies, definitively or not, with the series, but that is adamantly not the point. Have you noticed how many bitter threads have sprung up since the movie between those who loved it and those who were unimpressed? That's not unity in my eyes. We browncoats can continue to allign against the heathen forces of darkness and FOX, but among ourselves we don't have to flame each other over some basic issues of theology. Like how the Catholic church rears up in anger when a woman administers the Catholic sacraments, but doesn't lift an eyebrow at all those female Lutheran pastors running around. I think it's easier to unite on our similarities if we acknowledge our differences.

Honestly, though, I was just writing humorously in response to everybody arguing whenever responses to the movie came up. I thought taking it to the ridiculous stage of declaring sects would let us acknowledge we were ridiculous to blame others having simply another fundamental set of criteria, and stop people taking it too serious and leaving snide comments about who was the brownest browncoat of them all.

---------------------------------------------------
Early: Where'd she go?

Simon: I can't keep track of her when she's NOT incorporeally possessing a spaceship, don't look at me --

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Wednesday, October 19, 2005 8:07 AM

VISITINGMYINTENTIONS


Quote:

Originally posted by belasera:
The term "Joss written fanfic" is insane. Truly, you must see that.
If we're talking canon, anything with the name of Joss on it is canon,



But see, that's where we differ, and since I don't think either of us could sway the other on such a basic belief, I think we should acknowledge our differences (heretic!), put on our different hats, and stop arguing that particular topic since it'll never go anywhere but ugly.

---------------------------------------------------
Early: Where'd she go?

Simon: I can't keep track of her when she's NOT incorporeally possessing a spaceship, don't look at me --

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Wednesday, October 19, 2005 8:14 AM

VISITINGMYINTENTIONS


Quote:

Originally posted by pyrefx:
by that reasoning, you'd be condemning the last episode of the series too. You-know-who went splitsville before the movie. If anything you should be praising the movie for bringing you-know-who back.

*slaps on my ruttin' Heretic hat* it may not have a fuzzy ball on top, but it's got horns, and that's cool too.

"I call her Vera."




If you're talking about Inara, then no, she hasn't left at the end of OiS. In fact, she almost kisses Mal. I live in hope that they'll stop being idiots. Mal will admit he's just been jealous all along ...see, HE always wanted to be a Companion, but his parents wouldn't let him, and so he went away to war and got all bitter. Watch-- in scenes alone in his cabin, you can see him trying on nail-polish and pretty silks.

-----------------------------------------------------
MAL: Like woman, I am a mystery.

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Wednesday, October 19, 2005 8:15 AM

EMBERS


well we can't feel too bad, it had to happen...
the fandom of Buffy was split, and split again,
because Joss made MISTAKES...

we can't all expect to agree,
I'm in the 'everything with Joss' name on it is canon camp'
and I figure there is nothing to do but throw
VistingMyIntentions off the board and let him start his own board
for those who want to pick and chose what they think is canon, and ignore the creator
(not getting religious here...but Joss DID create this 'verse)

Haken is, of course the final arbiter on this board...
and I'll bet he is going to ignore this thead...
which I suppose I should have too,
but I'm kind of feeling up for a lynching...
(always knew this icon would come in handy)

**********************************************
watch the R. Tam Session vids: http://www.hittarivertam.nu/
and buy the 'Serenity' comics published by Dark Horse!

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Wednesday, October 19, 2005 8:21 AM

JYNK


So much for that "quiet reflection" Joss wanted from people who didn't like the movie. People, if you didn't like it...do as Joss asked and stfu. You're hurting the movie and making the fanbase look bad. Stop fighting and bashing each other and the movie. The sequel, if there ever is one, some people might come back. Joss might have big scoobie deaths, but no one's gone forever. Sorry if you all hate the movie for stuff that happened in it, but if you don't get why Joss does things, maybe you really don't understand the man or his work.

I liked all of it: the show, comic, movie, and even the RPG. All of it was from Joss. It's all canon..because it is from the source. You people having your little "schisms" are just..I want to hit you people. Seriously. If you didn't like the movie, don't see it anymore, but also keep your mouth shut and stop hurting it by being so negative. Wait till it's out of the box office before you say anything. Let it have it's chance.

-------------------
"Let's move this conversation in a not-Jayne's-fault direction." - Jayne

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Wednesday, October 19, 2005 8:29 AM

VISITINGMYINTENTIONS


Quote:

Originally posted by Jynk:
So much for that "quiet reflection" Joss wanted from people who didn't like the movie. People, if you didn't like it...do as Joss asked and stfu. You're hurting the movie and making the fanbase look bad. Stop fighting and bashing each other and the movie.



How 'bout you do some quiet reflection about who makes the fan base look bad: the folks who cheerfully agree to disagree, or the folks who say "if you didn't like it...stfu".

Now please, go away; we're trying to have a nice peaceful schism here. You can't fight in here, gentlemen, this is a war room.





...Back to the point: I plan to have a big purple hat with a picture of serenity on the front and a stuffed cow dangling from each side. This will be a sign to the True Believers. I'll post pictures when it gets made.


PS- Yes, Doncoat, that's the scene I mean. And Embers? I'm female. If you must lynch me, at least you could get my gender right.
---------------------------------------------------
Early: Where'd she go?

Simon: I can't keep track of her when she's NOT incorporeally possessing a spaceship, don't look at me --

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Wednesday, October 19, 2005 8:44 AM

DREAMTROVE


Okay, on this post I'm the troll.

I have to say a lot of things in opposition here.

First, schisms and geekisms are bad for the show. What a show needs to pay for its existance is mainstream groupies, preferably ones which have no impact on the content.

1. Joss in not a prophet, or maybe he is, but he's not divine. He is a damn good writer. Spielberg is a good writer, you may like his stuff or hate it, but he can write. Joss is a gorram rutting good writer. Therefor whatever he wants to do with the story is fine with me. If he chooses to make it a long endless series of ass jokes, he can. He'll lose me as a fan if he does, but he probably doesn't care about that.

2. Everything that made it on to the screen is part of the story. I think this includes the deleted scenes because they were on the screen for all of us who got the DVD set. I don't actually own a TV.

3. Shooting scripts aren't canon if they aren't on the screen. Once something is filmed, a filmmaker must accept them because they've been seen by the audience. Anything that hasn't been seen by the audience can be changed if he wants, ergo it is not canon.

4. Comics have Joss' name on them and they've been read by much of the audience.

5. Fox is responsible for the production of virtually everything Joss have ever done. They've spend millions of dollars on him. My thanks to Rupert Murdoch for bringing me so much Joss. They should just be lobbied to change there mind.

Please no partisan jabs on this point. Fox is a republican, but so is NBC, the rival for firefly's future.

Serenity BTW is on the screen and therefore is canon.

Everyone who has not seen the deleted scenes, they're a must see. Particular that one between River and Simon in OMR is my favorite scene in the entire series.

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Wednesday, October 19, 2005 9:08 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Hmmm...I don't think some people are seeing your post in the tongue-and-cheek spirit in which it was meant - maybe it's too soon after the release??
Anyway, I took your tone to be more mischeivious and playful than very serious or devisive, which I for one applaud...too many serious people out there! And you referenced a great movie line, (hint President Merkin Muffley), so I'll listen to ya!

Now about the purple hat with the 2 stuffed cows... I think I'm going to have to actually see that first...

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.net

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Wednesday, October 19, 2005 10:50 AM

DONCOAT


Quote:

Originally posted by VisitingMyIntentions:
Honestly, though, I was just writing humorously in response to everybody arguing whenever responses to the movie came up. I thought taking it to the ridiculous stage of declaring sects would let us acknowledge we were ridiculous to blame others having simply another fundamental set of criteria, and stop people taking it too serious and leaving snide comments about who was the brownest browncoat of them all.

Well, I got it, VMI... which is why I responded as I did -- I hoped it was the humorous equivalent of the hand-wringing responses I thought others might make.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ain't about you, Jayne. It's about what they need.

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