Firefly-Serenity Continuity by Ristol

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Firefly-Serenity Continuity

POSTED BY: RISTOL
UPDATED: Tuesday, October 11, 2005 10:57
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Monday, October 10, 2005 10:53 AM

I was pretty disappointed with the little rewrite of Simon's rescue of River. Wasn't he just supposed to finance that organization and they would deliver River in stasis? Plus he got a chance to talk with the doctor and see the experimenting going on, which means he should've known a LOT more than he did in the series.
Oh well, guess it's to be expected.
Any thoughts on this? Am I wrong? Anyone know of any more?

I'm gonna party like it's 18"99"

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Monday, October 10, 2005 11:19 AM

STAKETHELURK

This has come up elsewhere, but it’s always interesting to discuss.

First off, it should be noted that one of the main reasons behind that whole sequence is to introduce the non-fans to Simon and his protective attitude towards River. It’s a dramatic shortcut for those who didn’t watch the series to immediately figure things out.

Now, I’ve lent out my “Firefly” DVDs, so I can’t check his monologue in “Serenity,” but I think Simon was vague enough for this not to be a direct contradiction. He says he contacted some people, and that they smuggled River out. Well, those people were probably the ones who got Simon into the facility and were flying the ship that got him and River out. Simon’s just being modest (or cautious) when he omits his part in the rescue. Fudging it a bit, but it works—especially when we get to the next part.

Dr. Mathias gives Simon some general information about River (they made her crazy, she’s a psychic, she’s trained for combat), but he didn’t give Simon any medical specifics which would be useful in treating her—hence smuggling her into the hospital on Ariel. But what about the fact that Simon doesn’t seem to take River’s apparent abilities seriously?

Whedon has said recently that Simon was basically lying to the crew, and I think this plays out. Throughout the series, Simon has ignored or explained away any of River’s apparent psychic or combat abilities—especially in “Objects in Space,” where he refuses to believe River is some kind of psychic assassin and tries to discourage the crew from going down that line of reasoning. Now, we’re initially led to believe that Simon’s love for his sister and his medical background has essentially blinded him to the mounting evidence of River’s unique powers. But, in the film when the rest of the crew discovers she’s got all this dangerous mental programming, they want her off the ship. Even in “Objects in Space,” where all they have is circumstantial evidence rather that direct proof (and they don’t know she’s programmed to go kung-fu nutso on command), they’re very wary about having her onboard. So, what if every time Simon says he doesn’t know what’s wrong with her or he tries to discourage them from thinking she’s a reader, he’s lying? It makes sense; if the crew knows they will be reluctant to have her on board—Simon’s just protecting his sister like he always does by keeping the full extent of her condition a secret. With the series recast in light of the movie, it appears Simon is less naive than we were led to believe.

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Monday, October 10, 2005 12:03 PM

SIGMANUNKI

Quote:
Originally posted by StakeTheLurk:

First off, it should be noted that one of the main reasons behind that whole sequence is to introduce the non-fans to Simon and his protective attitude towards River. It’s a dramatic shortcut for those who didn’t watch the series to immediately figure things out.

Personally, I didn't like it. But I can accept it. As you say, it's a shortcut that is required due to time frame.

Quote:
Originally posted by StakeTheLurk:

Now, I’ve lent out my “Firefly” DVDs, so I can’t check his monologue in “Serenity,” but I think Simon was vague enough for this not to be a direct contradiction.

Just watched to entire series again over the past couple days. The way he says it, to me, it says that he paid people to get her out as he meet them on Persephone and she was delivered to him in cryo.

Quote:
Originally posted by StakeTheLurk:

Simon has ignored or explained away any of River’s apparent psychic or combat abilities—especially in “Objects in Space,” where he refuses to believe River is some kind of psychic assassin and tries to discourage the crew from going down that line of reasoning.

...snip...

A man of science is always weary of such things.

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

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Monday, October 10, 2005 12:15 PM

LADYSHELLEY

I can accept the whole idea that the group financined by Simon (as stated in the pilot) were the ones piloting the ship that lowers the sled at the facility, but then why was River put in stasis?
That's something I haven't seen a good theory for yet.

Lady Shelley
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.redhawke.org

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Monday, October 10, 2005 12:31 PM

TERAPH

Quote:
Originally posted by LadyShelley:
but then why was River put in stasis?
That's something I haven't seen a good theory for yet.

Easier to move a man and a box than a man and an insane, unpredictable girl.

That, and the warrant would have the feds looking for two people, so being a well-dressed man with some oversized luggage would be easier for travel.

Of course, I still don't like the whole Simon saves River thing anyway, and I know Joss intentionally re-wrote that part of the continuity [1], but at least there's enough left vague that it can make sense.

1. http://www.serenitymovie.com.au/viewtopic.php?t=766

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Monday, October 10, 2005 1:33 PM

SLAYTHIS

The thought of Simon lying to or withholding information from the rest of the crew does make perfect sense, and I wouldn't be surprised if this were an element that came up in the series had it continued. For me, the biggest nuance was not only the fact that River was put into cryo after escaping the facility, but the fact that when she wakes up, she reacts as though the last thing she remembers was being in the facility.
Had the series also continued, I imagine we may have eventually seen flashback sequences of River's escape with greater detail and a closer adherence to continuity. Ultimately, however, I'm willing to overlook and forgive these sort of nuances with the understanding that attention to such details could have compromised the quality of the movie as a stand-alone film. I'd rather have a good movie with continuity flaws than a mediocre one that's nit-pick-proof.

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Monday, October 10, 2005 1:53 PM

CAPTBAGGYTROUSERS

I think a few people nailed it upthread: Simon was always keeping what he knew about River very close to the vest. And in fact, this is better for everyone: the less people know, the safer they are. Look at how the Blue Hands guys and The Operative plugged leaks whenevery they found people who had been in contact with River.

My continuity problem comes from one line: "Eight months you've had her on this boat..." Eight months? The series took place over the course of at least six months (according to when they met up with Saffron in Trash), so since that time Book and Inara left. Book in particular has clearly set down roots in Haven and the crew of Serenity clearly know the folks there are well. It seems like he's been gone more than a month or two. If that one line wasn't there I wouldn't have trouble with show-to-movie continuity.

Wonder if they bought the new Mule with proceeds from fencing the Lassiter?

History repeats the old conceits

http://topshelftvshow.com
Updated! Improved! Shiny!

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Monday, October 10, 2005 2:10 PM

STARPILOTGRAINGER

I made my own fanwank about the whole Simon Problem (which is only a problem because the Doctor specifically says they did 'neural stripping' on her which makes Simon's quest and reaction in Ariel all out of whack... everything else could be explained by him lying):

Whoever knew River was in there and what was being done was clearly Alliance-connected in a serious way.

Such a person wanted River out, but didn't want to risk themselves. They also probably didn't want Simon to come across anything else in the secret black ops facility, stuff that the Mole was working on, for example.

So, what's the best way to handle it if you want to help get River out? Tell Simon (through intermediaries, shadowy alley conversations, blind Cortex connections) enough to get him in and out. If he fails, he can't turn over the Mole directly, and they'll assume that he, the brother, had enough motivation to attempt the rescue.

If he succeeds (as he did), you don't want him remembering the other stuff he saw, or any of the specific people who helped him on the ship, etc. So, you use some secret Alliance Tech that wipes his short term memory of the rescue (and, for that matter, River's), and send them on their way.

Star Pilot Grainger
"Remember, the enemy's gate is down."
LJ: http://www.livejournal.com/users/newnumber6 (real)
http://www.livejournal.com/users/alternaljournal (fictional, travelling through other worlds)
Unreachable Star: http://www.unreachablestar.net - Comics & SF News/Reviews/Opinions
This week: My spoiler-free Serenity review

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Monday, October 10, 2005 2:34 PM

EMBERS

Quote:
Originally posted by StarPilotGrainger:
I made my own fanwank about the whole Simon Problem (which is only a problem because the Doctor specifically says they did 'neural stripping' on her which makes Simon's quest and reaction in Ariel all out of whack...

actual 'neural stripping' is a pretty general statement, and didn't tell Simon exactly what part of the brain was tampered with...he learned the specifics when they went to Ariel.

'neural' could mean any part of the brain, or even any nerve cluster...
but at Ariel he learns very specifically what part of the brain was stripped, and then he is able to start trying to find a way to counter act the effects.

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Monday, October 10, 2005 2:47 PM

DONCOAT

We don't even really know what "neural stripping" means. It's not a medical term in use today. It may not have been known to Simon, either.

In other words, all he may have known is that some new, experimental procedure called "neural stripping" was done to her. The visit to Ariel was to figure out just what that procedure was and what its effects were.

Still, I disagree that the series would ever have revealed that Simon went in for River himself. That just doesn't seem to fit his character at that time. He was on his way to developing that kind of derring-do, but it would have been more like him to pay someone to do it back then.

So to me, it's a minor and forgivable discontinuity.

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Monday, October 10, 2005 3:00 PM

STARPILOTGRAINGER

Quote:
Originally posted by embers:
actual 'neural stripping' is a pretty general statement, and didn't tell Simon exactly what part of the brain was tampered with...he learned the specifics when they went to Ariel.

'neural' could mean any part of the brain, or even any nerve cluster...
but at Ariel he learns very specifically what part of the brain was stripped, and then he is able to start trying to find a way to counter act the effects.

I don't know, I still think that he acted way too surprised (and in front of Jayne, no less, who couldn't care less) at what they did to her when he was examining her in Ariel to have heard what he did in Serenity, that he didn't have a clue why they might have been cutting into her brain. If he knew what he was looking for, even generally, I think it should have shown more.

Star Pilot Grainger
"Remember, the enemy's gate is down."
LJ: http://www.livejournal.com/users/newnumber6 (real)
http://www.livejournal.com/users/alternaljournal (fictional, travelling through other worlds)
Unreachable Star: http://www.unreachablestar.net - Comics & SF News/Reviews/Opinions
This week: My spoiler-free Serenity review

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Tuesday, October 11, 2005 12:08 AM

VERASNEWOWNER

Hmmmm.

Ya wanna know what i first thought in the theatre...

That that wasnt Rivers rescue, it only dawned on me a few hours later that must be what it was meant to be.

Now, being an anti-spoiler type of guy, i didnt know how the movie would open and didnt know what would happen, so naturally, my unspoiled brain took over and it assumed that the Alliance had got River in the months between movie and series, and that this was a type of re-rescue thingy majigg.
However there was one flaw in my brains way of working, The Alliance know what simon looks like.

Now, it was only walking home that i figured out what Whedon must have done for the non-fans in the theatre, but its a small acceptable plot hole and discontinuity, i can just look past that and use the original explanation from Serenity (Pilot), afterall, its my choice what i accept and what i dont, but as said above, both explanations are exceptable.

Chris

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Tuesday, October 11, 2005 6:42 AM

SAGRILARUS

Are you people all insane? This is fiction! Whedon needed a dramatic introduction to three main characters for the film, and the escape scene provided him an avenue for all three. You can speculate about timelines, characters lying, and could-be situations all you like. It boils down to this -- the writing is not consistent.

That's ok! Good stories don't necessarily always add up the way the audience (or the writer) would like. If they do, it's super cool. But sometimes they don't, and that's ok. Joss painted himself into a bit of a corner in the original series, and you're looking at the footprints of him getting out.

Let us not become too heads-down on this thing.

Sag.

P.S. I think that was one of the best parts of the film. If you're going to rewrite, make it something really cool.

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Tuesday, October 11, 2005 10:21 AM

CYBERSNARK

Something else to keep in mind is that what a person does and feels can be very different.

People have noted how different "secret agent Simon Tam" is from the socially inept geek we see in the show. I think that's a big part of it, and that Joss is far too skilled and subtle a writer to just shoehorn a character-retcon into his continuity.

Simon obviously planned and prepared for River's escape (which he didn't for his Mud-buyer act on Higgin's Moon, so that's a factor), but planning and preparation only go so far.

What we saw was Simon cool, competent, and stone-faced. We don't know what he was thinking. It's likely that inside he was stuttering and sweating like a grade school kid called in front of the Principal. He was probably so concerned with posturing and looking grim and not breathing wrong or saying or doing anything that would give him away (and being petrified that he already had and that guards were gonna smash the door down any second) that he was completely zoning on most of what Matthias was saying.

The epiphany on Ariel could easily have been a "Why didn't I realize that!" moment.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Tuesday, October 11, 2005 10:45 AM

SAGRILARUS

Quote:
Joss is far too skilled and subtle a writer to just shoehorn a character-retcon into his continuity.

Joss shoehorned a character-retcon into his continuity.

Let's please keep a proper perspective on this thing.

Sag.

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Tuesday, October 11, 2005 10:57 AM

CHRISISALL

StakeTheLurk, you and Cybersnark explained things sufficently enough for me. Thanks guys, for making complete sense of the only question I had about the BDM's continuity.

(I wonder if Simon had to take a tranquilizer before going in to get River?)

Chrisisall, loving Serenity all the more

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