GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

can someone tell me Why?? (Major spoilers)

POSTED BY: BRITCHICK
UPDATED: Friday, October 7, 2005 08:34
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Thursday, October 6, 2005 10:05 AM

BRITCHICK


So,the BDM opens tomorrow in the UK, and my local cinema (Staines) is showing it a day early.

I book my tickets, drag along my husband, watch a great movie.

Select to view spoiler:


Book dies.

Bit of a gasp, but I can see the point.

but

Select to view spoiler:


Wash dying?

Why? Why? Why? What was the point of that?

I embarrassed myself by blubbing my eyes out. All through the closing credits, out of the cinema, across the car park, and into my car.



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Thursday, October 6, 2005 10:12 AM

GREENFAERIE


Why?

Some say no reason at all. Some say to make the moment so much more dangerous, knowing that the same thing might happen to someone else. Some say, well, cuz sh!t happens, and Joss will break your heart like that.

I blubbered slightly too. But it's still the best movie EVER.


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Thursday, October 6, 2005 10:16 AM

NINGJING


Britchick, this has been discussed in several other threads, which I suggest you take a look at. Others have done a much better job than I can describing rationales for that plot turn.

Personally, I was heartbroken. He wasn't just any character, to me he was the character. I'm no less saddened upon reflection, but I realize now that I feel differently about the movie than I would have if it hadn't happened. It turned an enjoyable, safe episode into a compelling, intense, uneasy movie--all of a sudden I was worrying who might go next. No one was safe anymore, and the way the script played out, several more characters potentially could have gone, too--Jayne and Simon were shot, Zoe was slashed across the back, Kaylee took those darts in the neck, and River was dragged into the middle of the Reavers as the door shut. I wasn't sure any one of them was going to survive.

That tension and uncertainty engaged me, and it never would have happened if Wash hadn't died so unexpectedly, shockingly, and brutally.

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Thursday, October 6, 2005 10:23 AM

SPOOKYJESUS


At the Dublin preview Christopher Buchanan said that in the earlier drafts everyone lived.

Availability of the actors (who were the last to sign on) I think changed things around in the first instance -

But far more importantly the events of the movie take a toll on the characters - things happen - things happen that matter.

But ultimatly - why?

To make you cry? - "I am a leaf on the wind" Ha Ha Ha THUNK! - you can't tell me you didn't think that maybe everyone was up for the chop - when Zoe gets slashed open, when Simon and Kaylee get shot, when Inara get hoped on, you're not thinking "they'll be fine in a minute, they'll get out" - you're thinking "Fuck! - who's next?"

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Thursday, October 6, 2005 10:31 AM

BRITCHICK


Ninjing, SJ

You're both right. Yes, I did wonder whether others were going to die.

I've found the thread with all the explanations in... http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=13372

...and it helped.

I still don't like it, but reading the thread helped.

*suppresses sob*




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Thursday, October 6, 2005 10:34 AM

WASHBURNE


Joss said it himself in an interview.

Not an exact quote mind you but basically: When you go from the little screen to the big screen things have to get bigger. More risky more dangerous. The movie is an event and it has to change thier lives. It can't just be another chapter in a story.

While

Select to view spoiler:


losing Wash to the Reavers

may be heart wrenching and goes against everything you want cause you love the character, you have to realize that the story wouldn't have as much impact without that event.

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Thursday, October 6, 2005 11:38 AM

JASONZZZ



Here's a particular good set of discussions too...
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=13444#186501


Quote:

Originally posted by britchick:
Ninjing, SJ

You're both right. Yes, I did wonder whether others were going to die.

I've found the thread with all the explanations in... http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=13372

...and it helped.

I still don't like it, but reading the thread helped.

*suppresses sob*




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Thursday, October 6, 2005 11:52 AM

KINGPAUSE


But come on, admit it. After Wash, you knew that all bets were off, and your heart was absolutely pounding because you knew that at any moment, Joss could pull something like that out again without blinking an eye. You gasped when Zoe got slashed. You jumped out of your seat when Kaylee got stuck in the neck. If your theater was anything like mine, you SCREAMED when Simon got it in the stomach. The whole last act of the movie is carried by the genuine sense of peril created by Wash's death. Imagine how much less exciting it would have been if you knew, even deep down, that this was gonna be one of those everything's-gonna-work-out-fine movies. And imagine how much less actual relief and release you would feel at the end, in those final brilliant shots of Serenity sailing through the storm and out of atmo.

That's why Wash died. He died for us.

But really, why anything? It's a story, and stuff happens in stories. If stuff didn't happen, it wouldn't be a story, it would just be a bunch of people's heads bobbing up and down.

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Thursday, October 6, 2005 11:54 AM

ENGINEANGEL


Quote:


You're both right. Yes, I did wonder whether others were going to die.
I've found the thread with all the explanations in... http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=13372
...and it helped.
I still don't like it, but reading the thread helped.


i am sooo glad that the thread "It CAN'T be true *major movie spoilers*" was helpful to you and other people. You see, I am the one who started that thread. I was going to tell everyone my thoughts again on this thread, but if you would like to know them and other people's go to http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=13372.

I will say one thing though. So many people are saying that Wash's death made them afraid for the rest of the characters. Well, for me, it didn't. I was afraid that someone might get seriously maimed, but i would have been afraid of that even if Wash hadn't died. For me, I was pretty sure that they wouldn't be able to kill anyone else off if they wanted to make a good sequel. And killing any beloved and cheerished character off just for an emotional response and to make people scared is not a good thing to do in any case. is this just me?



River: There's too much snow on top. It's going to cave in. His brain is in grave danger.
Zoe: River, honey, he's putting the hair away now.
River: It doesn't matter. It'll still be there. Waiting...

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Thursday, October 6, 2005 12:53 PM

FIREFLYFAN278


You cried? It didn't really make me sad. It really did make me mad. I've never like movies

Select to view spoiler:


where major characters die

.


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Thursday, October 6, 2005 12:59 PM

EBMFAN101


Quote:

Originally posted by NingJing:
Britchick, this has been discussed in several other threads, which I suggest you take a look at. Others have done a much better job than I can describing rationales for that plot turn.

Personally, I was heartbroken. He wasn't just any character, to me he was the character. I'm no less saddened upon reflection, but I realize now that I feel differently about the movie than I would have if it hadn't happened. It turned an enjoyable, safe episode into a compelling, intense, uneasy movie--all of a sudden I was worrying who might go next. No one was safe anymore, and the way the script played out, several more characters potentially could have gone, too--Jayne and Simon were shot, Zoe was slashed across the back, Kaylee took those darts in the neck, and River was dragged into the middle of the Reavers as the door shut. I wasn't sure any one of them was going to survive.

That tension and uncertainty engaged me, and it never would have happened if Wash hadn't died so unexpectedly, shockingly, and brutally.



I could not agree with you more! It was an amazing movie. Move over speilberg and Lucas because Joss Whedon has just stolen your fire

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Thursday, October 6, 2005 1:04 PM

FIREFLYFAN278


You really have flown to close to the sun. The movie was o.k.. The music was weak. Spielberg? Not even close. Closer to a TV movie than a classic cinema piece. Maybe in a few more movies.

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Thursday, October 6, 2005 1:47 PM

CHARLIETHEBLOODY


I'm not sure how I feel about wash's death, I just saw the film tonight and I'm still kind of in shock. it did seem after wash that everyone was being killed off one by one but I don't think I really believed they would die, didn't have 'the danger' it felt a bit forced and generally during a film if you're aware of that sort of thing it aint doing its job properly.

and I didn't cry when book died, but he was hardly in it, which was a shame cos his death didn't really seem to mean anything, it didn't give proper dues to the character he was in the series.

aww but why wash? I think I took him for granted before and now how can the universe continue without him? (ok maybe a little melodramatic, but why wash?)

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Thursday, October 6, 2005 2:08 PM

MOHRSTOUTBEARD


Quote:

Originally posted by fireflyfan278:
You really have flown to close to the sun. The movie was o.k.. The music was weak. Spielberg? Not even close. Closer to a TV movie than a classic cinema piece. Maybe in a few more movies.



Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

As for Spielberg: while still a great director, he has rather lost it with his last few outings as far as I'm concerned. He just can't let a story be. . .he's got to drag it out twenty minutes past a lot of people's point of caring just so the tale can end on a happy note. He definitely doesn't seem like the same Spielberg who would leave the Ark of the Covenant in a government warehouse forever, or have the shark get Robert Shaw, or let Richard Dreyfuss leave his family for the mystery of an alien mothership. . .

------------------
"Remember, there's a big difference between kneeling down and bending over."

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Thursday, October 6, 2005 3:53 PM

ENGINEANGEL


Quote:


and I didn't cry when book died, but he was hardly in it, which was a shame cos his death didn't really seem to mean anything,


oh, but it did mean something and something big. Without his last words, Mal would never have gone to such great lengths to get to Miranda (desecrating his ship) and might not have even gone to MIranda. Book's death meant soooo much and i think more people would be talking about it, if Wash hadn't been killed so horribly and suddenly.

River: There's too much snow on top. It's going to cave in. His brain is in grave danger.
Zoe: River, honey, he's putting the hair away now.
River: It doesn't matter. It'll still be there. Waiting...

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Thursday, October 6, 2005 5:13 PM

THEPYRO


Alright guys, i found this site a couple days ago and so many times i've already heard "oh its ok that Book dies, but Wash, now him i dont understand" Guys i can see, especially since i've read this and other treads, how and why they both died, but if anyone has seen Firefly and not just Serenity you'll feel more for Book. Book is freakim awesome guys, and i wanted so much to see more charater development on his part. :( oh well. But please have some respect.

"The bible is a mite fuzzy on the subject of knee caps."

"There is a "special level of hell" reserved for child molestors, and people who talk in the theater."

"You don't fix faith, it fixs you."

:D :D

The Pyro - 53r3n1ty's /\w350m3! F1r3fly t00!

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Thursday, October 6, 2005 6:02 PM

ENGINEANGEL


Quote:


Alright guys, i found this site a couple days ago and so many times i've already heard "oh its ok that Book dies, but Wash, now him i dont understand" Guys i can see, especially since i've read this and other treads, how and why they both died, but if anyone has seen Firefly and not just Serenity you'll feel more for Book. Book is freakim awesome guys, and i wanted so much to see more charater development on his part. :( oh well. But please have some respect.



so did i The Pyro. so did i. but i don't think that this is the last time we'll have heard from book. Joss must have something up his sleeve. Even he can't leave a big juicy secret out in the middle of things and not eventually make with the telling. Although it is true that it would have been much better to have had book tell it or not tell it or whatever in his own time. i am sorry for your loss. And I wasn't saying that book wasn't awesome or anything like that. He was ...



River: There's too much snow on top. It's going to cave in. His brain is in grave danger.
Zoe: River, honey, he's putting the hair away now.
River: It doesn't matter. It'll still be there. Waiting...

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Thursday, October 6, 2005 6:29 PM

THEPYRO


Engineangel - I know, I trust Joss enough, i got so excited at the part of Serenity when book and mal are talking and mal says something to the effect of "i still dont know how you know all this sheperd" and book say "There was a time when i wasn't a sheperd." i was like yes yes yes, no no no...:( lol. Come on Joss im trusting you, MORE BOOK, MORE OF EVERYTHING AND ANYHTING, JUST MORE MORE MORE MORE! :)

The Pyro - 53r3n1ty's /\w350m3 ; F1r3fly t00!

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Thursday, October 6, 2005 7:01 PM

LORDCHUTULU


at the risk of raising the wrath of the entire crowd... i'm going to say that i hope this is the end of firefly. my three fav characters were kaylee, book, and wash. now i'm down 2 outa' 3. i understand that wacking wash puts the audience back on edge. i too wondered if the whole gorram crew was gonna get taken down. but in the end, it just wouldn't be the same for me w/o wash and book. i think jos killed them mostly b/c he was used to the supernatural element in buffy and was overlooking the fact that in this world, there is no spell that can resurect fallen heros. i want book's story too. fantastic film... and i can't wait for all the dvd extras. but for me it was the whole story, not just wash, that got spiked.

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Thursday, October 6, 2005 7:11 PM

THEPYRO


I love Wash....hes just straight up awesome, in firefly when he does his dino thing, SWEET, but you can't name a show, especially one like this on one charater, i want more cause its awesome. However i can see your reasoning, even if i dont agree with you.....just b/c wash and book are dead, doesn't mean they can't be a part of the story anymore....and i mean w/o "resurection" stuff....Joss is an excellent dude, and if he so chooses not to do any more with Book and Wash (which idoubt, if more Serenity/Firefly is to come) then so be it, i wont like it but i trust Joss that it'll be great.

The Pyro - 53r3n1ty's /\w350m3 ; F1r3fly t00!

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Thursday, October 6, 2005 9:28 PM

RIGHTEOUS9



Wash's death was not for nothing. It wasn't gratuitous. At least, it was significant to me.

There's a certain dishonesty in saying that if you do the right thing and you take a risk, everything is going to come out roses. This crew agreed to put themselves and each other(their family)in jeapordy for a cause they all believed in. Wash agreed too. That's a genuine sacrifice.

Reality is bittersweet. In order to feel a certain 'serenity' if you will...a certain calmness of spirit on the other side of the storm, this crew decided not to run...not to just keep themselves safe. Such bravery is bravery because the risks are real, and because such actions are rarely rewarded.

If their risks had brought only pay-off for nothing lost, I think it would have been cheap. Instead we lost two very dear personalities, for the sake of this movie's integrity.

The void hurts, and I don't know what Mr. Whedon will do now to fill it, but Wash and Book didn't die for mere shock value, or for just a cheap tug at the heart strings of the fans. Their death's were earned, and the remaining crew paid dearly for this remarkable moment of transcendence from mere survivalism to heroism.

The costs are high for such a thing, but that doesn't make them not worth paying.

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Thursday, October 6, 2005 10:23 PM

THECRAZYIVAN


so....much....shock....

i saw it back in June so i had to keep this spoilery sadness for that long!!!! FROM MY BROWNCOAT FRIENDS WHO COULDNT MAKE IT!

O man, as the time was nearing...i got all choked up and my friend looked at me and was like "dude whats wrong?" I just pointed to the screen. Sure enough...the usual laugh at his "leaf on the wind" bit then nothing but deep breaths and "NOOOOO!"s...

~~~~~~~~~~
"There is a sense that this is still not over. It's hard to put a finger on what's so special about this project and about this group of people, but it's just one of those things you have to trust in, and relish. I am very, very proud."
---Jewel Staite on "Firefly" and "Serenity" in "Finding Serenity" (essay collection by Jane Espenson)

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Friday, October 7, 2005 8:34 AM

CHARLIETHEBLOODY


yeah, I've been thinking about it pretty much non stop since last night, and I think I worded it badly when I said book's death was meaningless, I understand that it meant they had no 'haven' and pushed mal into doing what he wouldn't have, but I still don't think it was given enough weight. I'm sad that I didn't feel sadder...

ooh but I came across a bit in the magazine today where ron glass says:
"...I look forward to whatever the future holds as far as my involvement in this world holds. Joss has assured me that in his creative mind, Book is a part of his universe. Joss maintains that it is his goal to keep those 9 characters in place."

here's a thought: river becomes a witch, possibly a lesbian along the way, starts raisin' the dead, mayhem mayhem mayhem, gets addicted, quits, but only after we get our lovely cast back (with no side effects), hooray...

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