Discussion for the subject: What happened to my show, 'cause Serenity wasn't it?! by chrisisall

In my opinion Serenity stayed true to the fans. There wasn't a moment where I thought it didn't feel like a true Firefly movie. Hell it was better than any singel Firefly episode! Just awsome!

Startrek movies never were that great in my opinion.

"I am a leaf in the wind." :knife: Big Damn Fansite - Where the Browncoats gather. http://www.freewebs.com/bigdamnfansite

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Tuesday, October 04, 2005 5:58 PM

well it makes sense that there would be differences #1 Firefly wasn't entirely Joss' vision, it was a Big Damn compromise with Fox... Joss said many times that he wanted Mal to be angrier and more bitter.

#2 Firefly was a TV show and they thought they would have 22 episodes to slowly enjoy the characters, their relationships and developing and revealing elements about things

Select to view spoiler:

things like where Reavers really came from

with Serenity we are dealing with a movie, where we don't have the luxury of wasting any time... characters have to be sketched out quickly so that we can get to the story. But at least the characters and the story can be what Joss intended, without anyone trying to tell him what he should or should not do.

I think the comic book was supposed to bridge the gap, explain changes that had happened on board... at least it did for me. But personally I don't have any problems with the movie as compared to the TV show.... I would like to have 22 episodes per year, instead of one two hour movie every 3 years.... but there is nothing we can do about that.

Heck, I'll just be happy to have more comic books.

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Tuesday, October 04, 2005 5:58 PM

MACBAKER

Quote:
Originally posted by Rakarr: In my opinion Serenity stayed true to the fans. There wasn't a moment where I thought it didn't feel like a true Firefly movie. Hell it was better than any single Firefly episode! Just awesome!

Agreed! Sometimes it wasn't fun, and certain scenes broke my heart, but no doubt about it, IT WAS FIREFLY! Yes, it had more anguish than any episode of the show, but it also had far more at stake and far more excitement than the series ever did!

Select to view spoiler:

I'll continue to morn the dead, but I still have to smile cuz in the end, Mal's ship Serenity is "Still Flying!"

I'd given some thought to movin' off the edge -- not an ideal location -- thinkin' a place in the middle.

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Tuesday, October 04, 2005 6:29 PM

I have seen the movie 3 times. And each time I walk away amazed at new layers I hadn't seen before.

It is easy to see shortcomings of too many crowd-pleasing compromises, or not enough. But each time I see the movie again, I see something grander than theatrics. Serenity has a story to tell, and at heart, it doesn't much matter if the crowd is pleased or not. And the story is this: each character, even the Alliance, is more complicated and flawed than what we saw in Firefly.

No, it wasn't Out of Gas or Objects in Space, or even Jaynestown. Firefly had the luxury of intimacy. We miss that in Serenity--there simply wasn't enough time. But what Serenity offers is perspective, the bigger picture. We pull away from the beauty of each tree to look at the majesty of the forest, if you will.

For me, it took repeated viewings to shift gears. I was confused and disappointed too the first time around. My initial reaction was, I hate to say it but Constantine was a better movie. By the 3rd time, I saw what Orson Scott Card and the New York Times/New York Magazine saw. Serenity has a depth and complexity that rivals the best plays out there.

Perhaps Joss' mistake was he is too intelligent and ambitious for his own good. It is hard for an average person like myself to get it the first time around.

Can't Take My Gorram Sky :tongue:

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Tuesday, October 04, 2005 6:34 PM

MacBaker,

Can you edit your post to hide the spoilers, please? Thanks.

Can't Take My Gorram Sky :tongue:

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Tuesday, October 04, 2005 8:19 PM

R1Z

Free associating here--

Didn't plan to, but that's how this post is turning out.

I'm just back from my third viewing, and I'm still conflicted. There are a few plot glitches I'm working through. If Serenity is 5 years past Firefly, why does Mal talk about the 8 months Simon and River have been on board? Did they get off for 4 years?

I was in shock after you-know-what in the first viewing, but I'm coming to grips with it. I suppose we can still explore the plot threads that would seem to be ended.

It stands to reason that Mal would be grimmer when dealing with system-wide injustice, as opposed to a threat to just his little crew.

I think what I miss is slipping back into the Firefly 'verse I know, kind of like coming home from the office and taking off the shiny shoes that hurt and slipping into the ratty old sneakers that are only good for painting the garage in. Serenity is shiny and slick and it's not HOME yet.

I get all misty at one point in the movie--did anyone else notice that they used the spacesuits from the tv series? Jayne in yellow and Mal and Zoe in military surplus. It's the only thing I've noticed brought forward from the series.

And I HATE Mal's black suspenders, and he's not wearing the tan-mit-brown-stripe pants that I always assumed were leftover from his uniforms.

Maybe eventually, Serenity will feel like home, too, but not yet.

Thomas Wolfe said it: You can't go home again. I'm afraid he's right. I wish he wasn't.

To enjoy the flavor of life, take big bites. Moderation is for monks. --Robt. Heinlein

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Tuesday, October 04, 2005 8:46 PM

HKCAVALIER

Aw, Chris...unfortunately, I think I'm the guy you wanna hear from. I've been sitting on posting this because I had a very negative experience with the BDM and I'm too down-hearted about it to get in a fight with anyone over it. By the same token, I can't seem to contribute to any of the other threads until I get all this off my chest. I don't think I have ever been so disappointed in a movie. I'm by no means saying that this is the worst movie I've ever seen. It's a good movie. But I had really high hopes. Higher hopes than I would ever allow myself if I didn't have 14 near perfect to utterly perfect episodes of Firefly to fuel them. So the ratio of hopes to actual outcome is greater than any other movie I can think of. Ouch.

(Warning: this is absolutely the longest post I’ve ever written--and I’ve written some long posts! Sorry in advance. This is prolly the hardest post I’ve ever written as well. I’m very disappointed on a lot of levels. Part of me hopes I’m alone in that, but part of me hopes I’m not. I’ve been visiting this site since before the show even got cancelled. I consider a lot of people here friends--as far as this awkward, flimsy internet intimacy can foster such. I’m not looking for a fight; not calling anybody out. I need to put my thoughts together and share my sadness and frustration with people who’ve been where I've been. I know a lot of you loved the movie and I’m glad. I’m overjoyed, really. I didn’t hate it. It was good seeing everybody again; good to get at least one more episode of the best t.v. show ever. I liked how Mal turned the tables on the Operative. In time, I think I’ll come not to mind the movie quite as much as I do right now. Even so, I don’t think it’ll ever climb above “least favorite episode” status. Be warned, once I get rolling there are constant spoilers, and I don’t soft peddle. But first, a little aesthetics. :biggrin: )

Up to now I’ve thought the two main forces in popular art were plot and character; stories were either plot driven or character driven. There are other less reputable forces that get involved, of course; nowadays, there’s “effects driven,” and sex and/or violence will keep plenty of people entertained in spite of the most incoherent plots and non-existent characterization.

I’ve been thinking about how these different drives engage us emotionally. The plot driven story engages us on a direct, visceral level with the circumstances. There’s a certain impersonal quality; we watch a gun fight, for instance, and imagine what it would be like to be in a gun fight. We’re not thinking about what would motivate us as individuals to get in a gun fight, we’re not thinking about how our gun fighting would affect the people we love, we’re just in it and that’s enough. We don’t think about the characters overmuch; hopefully they’re generic enough not to interfere with our fantasy. Our emotions are personal and primal. Most genre fiction is plot driven (genre driven?) in this way. Most "event movies" for that matter.

A character driven story is very different, primarily on an emotional level. Compelling characters bring us into the story on their terms. We’re not watching “a gun fight” we’re watching the Alliance mole panic and shoot Kaylee in the gut. We’re not thinking, “Youch, that musta hurt!” so much as we’re thinking, “Simon wouldn’t really let Kaylee die, he’s bluffing!” In a character driven story, the stakes for each character take center stage. Our emotions project forward and look backward constantly, looking to consequence and motive. We compare the characters’ reactions to what we imagine we would do under the same circumstances. The characters are not merely vehicles for our vicarious enjoyment, but guides and even fellow participants.

In Firefly, character always trumped plot, even when the plot was at its most intense, we never forgot what it meant for the people involved. But in Serenity there's a thing that trumps character.

Serenity has clarified a third force that’s flown just under my radar for a long while which, in the works of Joss Whedon in particular, can overwhelm these two forces completely: fandom. Before Joss, fan driven art in my mind was largely the province of, well, fans (I can think of other fan driven art, much of super hero comix for example, but nobody engages the “fan drive” as quickly or as expertly as Joss Whedon). Fan fiction is not so much about compelling plot or coherent characters; it’s about putting already beloved characters, about whom we need no further information, in situations which will be uniquely harrowing or gratifying to fans. To non-fans of Firefly, a story about Jayne and Kaylee having sex would be pretty meaningless, but to the fan it can be anything from sublime to obscene, if not both--anything but meaningless. It’s hard to imagine a plot which a Jayne/Kaylee liaison would serve, and in the light of day, it ain’t exactly in character, but fans eat this stuff up nonetheless.

As I think about it, really, most popular television gets this way eventually, but then we call it “jumping the shark.” To a hardcore fan of “Fonzie” jumping the shark had intrinsic value, “Whoa, man! The Fonz just jumped a shark! I knew the Fonz was cool, but I didn’t know he was that cool!” We tend to see it as a result of the writers running out of fresh material, but I think it may be more a matter of the writers bowing to the fan drive and giving the people what they want.

I’ve never been fond of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and now I know why. Buffy is fan fiction. If you don’t love Buffy, the stories are pretty arbitrary and often silly. The grounded realities of characters, even the coherent metaphysics of the universe they inhabit, take a back seat to the gratification of seeing Buffy & co. in amazing situations. Buffy is a quip-fest; it’s just so cool to see our favorite characters say the coolest things. The fight choreography is totally silly, but it doesn’t matter, because the action in fan fiction is mainly symbolic--something cool for our heroes to be doing; like the splash page of a classic comic book where the hero and the villain collide with explosive force. The subsequent pages of “pow” and “krrrrunch,” the exchange of identifying banter have no bearing on the inevitable victory for the hero.

Until, of course, that becomes too predictable and the professional makers of fan fiction have to shake things up and kill a beloved character to reboot the fan drive. Superman has to die, Buffy has to die. The circumstances can be trumped up as you please, doesn’t matter, the fans will eat it up. At this level, fans don’t so much love the characters, as they love that they love the characters. It’s gratifying in a paradoxical way that they grieve as if the character were a real friend they’ve lost. Their awe for the artist is only increased by this rare feat of creative prowess.

The closest thing to a fan driven episode of Firefly was Trash which was largely an excuse to see Saffron again. Never mind that none of the crew would have gone along with Saffron’s plan after what they’d all been through at her hands, seeing Mal and Saffron reunited is more important; coherent character and continuity are often the first casualties of the fan drive. I know, it all turned out to be a double cross; but why Saffron would have believed that these people whom she nearly, so coldly, vaporized would ever trust her again I cannot fathom (yes, many people who think they’re very clever are actually deeply stupid, particularly about the cleverness of others--the episode cleverly escapes jumped shark status, but it made me wary).

(**Last chance to get out of here, if you don't want to read the big damn spoilers**)

For me, Serenity represents the Buffy-fication of Firefly. Still has a diverting plot, still pleases the vast majority of Firefly fans who also adore Buffy, but character driven sci-fi it ain’t. The opening scene with Simon is an exemplum. Forget about the fact that Simon is given info he never had until Ariel, the problem with the scene is his kick-ass portrayal of an Alliance Officer. Acting is pretty hard for non-actors and acting undercover when your life is on the line staggeringly so. But here’s Simon all steely-eyed and balls-to-the-wall cool fooling the feds. Remember Jaynestown? Remember when Mal asked him to pretend to be a buyer, as in the totally unsmooth “I’m a buyer” line? In Firefly, Simon’s steeliness developed slowly, painfully, realistically over many episodes, but he never became a good liar--just look at every dumb thing he ever told Kaylee. The Simon in the Alliance uniform is smoooooooth, and the Simon of Firefly is anything but smooth. As fan-fiction though, Simon’s impersonation is awesome--Go Simon!

Simon’s whole trajectory in the movie is fan driven. After Objects in Space, he and his sister are fully members of the crew. It makes sense that his sister would be involved with missions, helping her crew to survive. Simon would have known and accepted this. But whoa, when Simon clocked the captain, boyeeeee! After 14 episodes of Mal being so hard on our beloved Simon, Simon gets a little of his own back. In your face, Malcolm Reynolds! Senseless pandering. Gee, I sure wish Simon would tell Kaylee how he really feels--wish granted! Well, gee, then how ‘bout they have sex? Granted as well! Never mind that there was plenty of evidence that Simon disapproved of Kaylee, was deeply classist and repressed; in fan fiction every character is as cool as they wanna be.

The sense of family and intimacy between all nine characters which was painstakingly developed episode by episode in Firefly is dumped in favor of cheap thrills, constant banter and superfluous exposition. Whatever coherence as a family or a crew which these people in the movie have is granted them by the fans. It’s just not there otherwise. Zoe would never have questioned Mal’s shooting that man when the reavers attacked. Blink and you'll miss the bottle pass--and only a fan would make anything of it. Mal wouldn’t have had to do half the yelling he did in this movie with the crew he built over the course of the series. Remember, War Stories? Every last one of these people would die for him.

If Joss wanted to spend so much of the opening 20 minutes of the movie on exposition, why didn’t he give us any exposition showing what kind of a cohesive amazing family the crew of Serenity is? The loss of the heat shield [?] would have been a perfect opportunity to show how the crew works together under stress. Instead, we get Kaylee dithering around the engine room like a transplanted Willow. What happened to my Firefly?

Joss didn’t get to tell the story the way he wanted, the way he needed to tell it. He needed the years of slow development to realize this stuff--sometimes it’s just too soon to tell a really big story. I think he got panicky and went with what he knew. And what he knows better than anything else is Buffy. So we get the quip-a-minute structure. Characters reduced to charming two dimensional versions of themselves; Kaylee reduced to a series of sex jokes; since nobody trusts Mal, Jayne looking better than ever; Zoe being stoical and taciturn even when her reason for living has been pole-axed by fate--Baby? What baby?; Inara wearing an evening gown to go planet-side on the home world of the reavers. We get those “They Live!” style fights between the Operative and Mal. We even get what I’ve realized is for me the definitive Buffy scene thrown in: you know the scene, it’s really between Buffy and some guy, but the entire rest of the cast is just hanging around in the background for no known reason. Pure fan physics. Fans want to see all their favorite characters as much as possible, they love seeing their reaction shots and hearing their clever asides, so Joss puts the whole gang on screen. And since most of them are teenagers (or thereabouts) and most of what they do is “hang” anyway, it flies. So why didn’t anyone stay on Serenity when they got to Miranda? Fan physics, Buffy-fication. So they’d all be in on the big scene and we wouldn’t miss anybody.

The Firefly I remember had quiet parts, lots of negative space, strange interludes. The silence of space was a big part of that. The folkie guitar riffs were part of that. Characters doing and saying little unexpected “out of character” things was part of that--“He’s my hewo.” Heck, now, the entire character arcs of Book and Wash are part of the lost quiet that made Firefly what it was.

And Book’s and Wash’s deaths were just plain mishandled. Neither death was of great consequence--except to fans, of course. Neither man was killed deliberately or specifically. Neither man’s death was a necessary means to the ends of their killers who killed them anonymously. Book’s survival alone wouldn’t have granted Mal a place to hide; Wash’s death was purely random, could have been anyone (again, only meaningful as a way to shake up genre-cynical hardcore fans).

Book’s death has a motivational consequence for Mal, at least; but Wash’s death is virtually without consequence. I’m sorry, a couple tired double entendres from Zoe don’t cut it for me. On another thread someone suggested a brief scene of Zoe crying in Mal’s arms. That’s the kind of scene we might have gotten near the end of an episode of Firefly--quiet, unexpected, slightly out of character, but so meaningful.

Serenity has no time for that kind of thing. If Joss had killed Wash off in the first episode of the new series, say, he could have really made it count over the course of the pursuing episodes. This way, it’s just a sucker punch to his adoring fans. Within the world of the movie, neither death amounts to much in terms of the surviving characters. (I want to make myself clear: I don’t object to the deaths themselves. After all, Wash’s death has been foreshadowed from the beginning of the series in the opening credits--“Take me out to the black/tell them I ain’t comin’ back”--but Joss just threw these guys away. If we don’t get a sequel, everybody dies anyway. It’s just gratuitous. Random death in a narrative only has meaning in its affect upon the living and without a sequel, there will be no affect.)

What’s most galling to me is that it never should have been this way. If Joss had been able to tell his story as it was meant to be told, over the course of several seasons of television, these deaths would have been rich with meaning; the quip-a-minute structure of the movie could have slowed to a manageable four or five an hour. Plot holes and silly expediencies like Simon’s super spy act could have been avoided. It’s all got me worried about Joss for the first time. What really went wrong? It’s got me wondering if he’s got any friends he can trust to show his scripts to that don’t worship all things Whedonesque. He’s obviously a big old genius and such folk can feel pretty alone when it’s all said and done, even without being a card carrying existentialist like Joss here is. Killing off the Good Father and the Loyal and Loving Husband in one sitting? Is that any way to end a series (‘cause if we don’t get a sequel, that’s how it’s gonna be)? Does that seem right to you?

The supreme irony in all of this is that three years ago the Fox network thought they were getting “Buffy in Space” and now, with Serenity, Joss has finally delivered.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Tuesday, October 04, 2005 8:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by embers: well it makes sense that there would be differences #1 Firefly wasn't entirely Joss' vision, it was a Big Damn compromise with Fox... Joss said many times that he wanted Mal to be angrier and more bitter.

#2 Firefly was a TV show and they thought they would have 22 episodes to slowly enjoy the characters, their relationships and developing and revealing elements about things
Select to view spoiler:
things like where Reavers really came from

with Serenity we are dealing with a movie, where we don't have the luxury of wasting any time... characters have to be sketched out quickly so that we can get to the story. But at least the characters and the story can be what Joss intended, without anyone trying to tell him what he should or should not do.

I think the comic book was supposed to bridge the gap, explain changes that had happened on board... at least it did for me. But personally I don't have any problems with the movie as compared to the TV show.... I would like to have 22 episodes per year, instead of one two hour movie every 3 years.... but there is nothing we can do about that.

Heck, I'll just be happy to have more comic books.

It was 14 episodes I believe. I can't remember the last show I saw that had more than 14 episodes to it in a single season. So yeah pretty sure it's 14...

"I am a leaf in the wind." :knife: Big Damn Fansite - Where the Browncoats gather. http://www.freewebs.com/bigdamnfansite

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Tuesday, October 04, 2005 9:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Rakarr: So yeah pretty sure it's 14...

yes obviously I was talking about what it should have been which is 22 episodes and what I would want if I was given my preference: 22 episodes a year.

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Tuesday, October 04, 2005 9:10 PM

I don't understand what you mean it "should have been" 22 episodes? The season was going to be 22 episodes long? Or you just wish it was? or what? No way it was going to be 22 episodes and I highly doubt any show will have a 22 episode season. Atleast not any time soon.

"I am a leaf in the wind." :knife: Big Damn Fansite - Where the Browncoats gather. http://www.freewebs.com/bigdamnfansite

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Tuesday, October 04, 2005 9:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by R1Z: If Serenity is 5 years past Firefly, why does Mal talk about the 8 months Simon and River have been on board? Did they get off for 4 years? --Robt. Heinlein

no no, the movie takes place 5-6 MONTHS after the ending of Firefly... not years, months.

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Tuesday, October 04, 2005 9:18 PM

yeah, they all do... Buffy always (well, not the first season) had 22 episodes per year Angel always had 22 episodes per year... Enterprise got cut to only 18 but they had been more

I understood that that was standard for most shows in the USA...at least most network shows.

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Tuesday, October 04, 2005 9:26 PM

22 being the standard? Hmmm.... I believe 13 or 14 is the standard. That's what its been for most shows recently that I watch. Like The Shield, Stargate, Battlestar Galactica, Lost was around 14 eps, Prison Break's first season isn't over yet but seems to be comeing really close to an end, Law & Order I believe... I'm pretty sure the standard is about 14 episodes for a season. I think Firefly was going to be just a 14 episode season cause they only produced 14 episodes.

"I am a leaf in the wind." :knife: Big Damn Fansite - Where the Browncoats gather. http://www.freewebs.com/bigdamnfansite

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Tuesday, October 04, 2005 9:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier: Select to view spoiler:
Neither man was killed deliberately or specifically. Neither man’s death was a necessary means to the ends of their killers who killed them anonymously. Book’s survival alone wouldn’t have granted Mal a place to hide; Wash’s death was purely random, could have been anyone (again, only meaningful as a way to shake up genre-cynical hardcore fans).

Book’s death has a motivational consequence for Mal, at least; but Wash’s death is virtually without consequence. I’m sorry, a couple tired double entendres from Zoe don’t cut it for me. On another thread someone suggested a brief scene of Zoe crying in Mal’s arms. That’s the kind of scene we might have gotten near the end of an episode of Firefly--quiet, unexpected, slightly out of character, but so meaningful.

you complain that 'Serenity' was written to please the fans, but in fact you are complaining that it didn't suit YOUR needs..... you wanted movie deaths with meaning, and speeches, and time to mourn... but in RL death is senseless, random, and sudden... and I think Joss is a fan of the RL arbitary death.

And Zoe would NEVER have cried in Mal's arms, she never did during war and there is no way their formal relationship (she always calls him 'Sir') would allow her to do it... ever

Select to view spoiler:

She could have cried in Wash's arms, that is part of the reason her repression of all emotion is so emotional...IMO

it is very true that we had quiet time, down time on Firefly, but that is the thing about TV...you have unlimited time to take your time to tell a story, that will never ever happen in a movie. Movies have to keep to the point. well, at least action movies do.

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Tuesday, October 04, 2005 9:30 PM

oh Rakaar, you are comparing cable station's original programming (which is always done on the cheap, w/fewer episodes per season) I had noticed that w/HBO & Showtime too, they ran VERY short seasons.... BUT with a network show... Firefly would have been like Angel & Buffy and Friends and West Wing and Law & Order and Desperate Housewives and Lost and and and it would have had 22

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Tuesday, October 04, 2005 9:39 PM

If it were to have 22 episodes, then why doesn't it on the DVD Set? Or why haven't those episodes been made?

There isn't need to argue over this. there isn't 22 episodes. Just 14. What could of been doesn't matter. What matters is what can be.

"I am a leaf in the wind." :knife: Big Damn Fansite - Where the Browncoats gather. http://www.freewebs.com/bigdamnfansite

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Tuesday, October 04, 2005 9:54 PM

R1Z

Quote:
If it were to have 22 episodes, then why doesn't it on the DVD Set? Or why haven't those episodes been made?

Because the show was cancelled mid-season. The Christmas party became the "wrap" party.

To enjoy the flavor of life, take big bites. Moderation is for monks. --Robt. Heinlein

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Tuesday, October 04, 2005 11:54 PM

Rakarr,

Network TV usually has 22 episodes per season. When new series are produced, they usually order about half a season's worth to start, like 10 or 11. In Firefly's case, they ordered 11, then 3 more (probably the 3 that weren't aired). So Firefly the complete series is really half a season's worth...and people can't help but wonder what Joss could have done with a full season's worth to tell the story. That's all. No need to get into a wad over it.

Can't Take My Gorram Sky :tongue:

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Wednesday, October 05, 2005 12:36 AM

EMMA

HKCavalier, I enjoyed the film but I wouldn't have done if I hadn't have been a fan. I think the nature of Serenity is different to the nature of Firefly but not because of the reasons you stated. I think it is an extremely violent film and what Joss would have done on television if he could have gotten away with it. I for one am glad he didn't because I wouldn't have enjoyed it.

I do agree with you about fan-led art though. Buffy and Angel are pure fan-fiction, a soap opera of the nth degree but I love it because of that. Joss writes a fantastic story because it is a fully rounded soap opera and he gives the fans what they want, and then takes it away from them. This is where I disagree with you though, it is the taking away which makes him so popular.

Select to view spoiler:

Tara's relationship with Willow was wonderful, but better because Tara died. Angel and Buffy were fantastic when they finally got together but better when he turned into Angelus

Serenity is good because it will have 1 or 2 sequels and there will be consequences

Select to view spoiler:

Simon and Kaylee will fail, Inara and Mal will struggle, eventually get together and then fail, Zoe will breakdown - I imagine a mental killing spree. Joss is fantastic but increasingly predictable. There will never be a happy relationship and people always go mad after death of loved ones. The sex-bot made me cringe because it is obviously a plot device and was stolen from Buffy, granted he was plagiarising himself but still!

If there aren't sequels then these consequences won't take place and there I can see your point. Especially with

Select to view spoiler:

Wash's death

. We shall see though.

I liked your exposition and found it inciteful and intelligent. It is more articulate than many of the negative responses I have seen which concentrate on 'oh now, how could he do that'. These things happen, but debating the reasons they are written and who for, now that is interesting.

Personally, I enjoyed the film but I enjoyed it because of all of the 'fan-led' elements, not the 'cinematic-led' elements. But then, I am a Buffy and Angel addict for exactly the same reasons.

extremely dimensionally transcendental

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Wednesday, October 05, 2005 1:44 AM

DUCESTECUM

TO HKCavilier:

Your insight regarding Serenity is totally remarkable and as far as I am concerned right on the money. Someone needs to send Joss a copy. I thought it was extremely thought-provoking and intelligent, so much so that I printed it for a fellow Browncoat here at work. I'm just jealous that I couldn't have said it myself.

"And that's not incense!"

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Wednesday, October 05, 2005 1:54 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier: In Firefly, character always trumped plot,... But in Serenity there's a thing that trumps character... character driven sci-fi it ain’t.

Very insightful analysis. I agree--partially. As someone else pointed out, the sex-bot was an obvious wink to Buffy fans. As you pointed out, Zoe or anyone else wouldn't have questioned Mal the way they did. I agree that Buffy was mostly fan pleasing and "jumping the shark," as you say. I think Angel was less so, and by Firefly, Joss had enough confidence and clout to move past fan-tweaking and tell an independently creative story.

Then Firefly got cancelled (that's what you get for moving past fandom). He gets one last shot at resurrecting Firefly. The pressure is enormous. I can't blame him for returning to what he knows works--pleasing the fans. There are deeply compelling pragmatic issues here. Maybe he didn't panic. Maybe it was a deliberate move to produce what he knows sells.

I don't think Joss sold out entirely though. That's where the layers come in. He did develop character. Just one--Mal's. If you look past the gratuitous fan throwaways, you see that the whole movie is about Mal. Struggling with his loneliness. Unleashing his bitterness. Finding his faith again. That, in the end, was what this whole story is about.

The way I see it, the fan tickles were just a disguise to sell his character-driven drama to a sci-fi action crowd. Maybe that was the mistake. It was too character driven for the action crowd, and too action driven for the character crowd. Most people seem to be able to see only one layer at a time. Those who see the wrong layer hate it, and those who find the right layer for them love it--that is why the disparate reviews. But I understand why he did it, and I applaud him for being ingenious enough to find a way to squeeze 2 movies onto the same screen.

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I’m sorry, a couple tired double entendres from Zoe don’t cut it for me. On another thread someone suggested a brief scene of Zoe crying in Mal’s arms.

This is where the fan-fic upsets me most. Instead of River-turned-Buffy at the end, I wanted to see Zoe in that room. I think that would have been more in character for a hardened war veteran who just lost the love of her life.

Chrisisall and HKC, watch the movie again. For me at least, I saw a completely different movie the second time around.

Can't Take My Gorram Sky :tongue:

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Wednesday, October 05, 2005 2:56 AM

MITHEL

Unfortunately Serenity was not "Firefly". Good movie, maybe a great movie (at least for some of the fans - but I find it hard to believe a non-fan would think of it as anything more than passing entertainment) but Firefly the series was special.

Never liked Buffy or Angel, but with Firefly it seemed that Joss Whedon showed incredible talent. I'm not sure what went wrong with Serenity but I think it was Joss!

I do also agree that Serenity gets better on repeat viewings. I'm not happy with how Serenity was made but I do hope for more of the Firefly 'verse.

Maybe some of us were holding Joss to too high of a standard by expecting more of Firefly? Maybe Joss let the "BDM" go to his head? Maybe the real Joss (of Buffy) was revealed?

We all love to hate Fox for killing the best series I've ever seen. But it may have been Fox toning down the "darker" side of Joss that actually made Firefly fantastic.

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Wednesday, October 05, 2005 3:08 AM

EMMA

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Originally posted by Mithel: We all love to hate Fox for killing the best series I've ever seen. But it may have been Fox toning down the "darker" side of Joss that actually made Firefly fantastic.

You are a brave person for saying so but you might have a point there.

extremely dimensionally transcendental

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Wednesday, October 05, 2005 3:16 AM

SAFEAT2ND

HKCAVALIER, Ummm....wow.

You put in words what I think a lot of others have tried AND you did it with being abrasive or confrontational. WELL DONE!

Joss himself said it was the hardest thing he's had to do, write this script. And I think you are bang on the money when you said he reverted back to what he knew. Hell, we've all done that under pressure. And here's an added wrinkle, when was the last time a studio stayed hands off a project and let director do things his own way?

I don't believe for a moment that Serenity was Joss's true vision. Plus, the arguement that Firefly wasn't what Joss had envisioned has me thinking then, that Fox tempered his vision and inadvertently make a good show but were too stupid to realize it. And that's the show I loved.

So HK, I'm with you. I don't hate it, but I don't love it either.

Safeat2nd, Chief Handyman of Destiny

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Wednesday, October 05, 2005 4:29 AM

ROCKETJOCK

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier: For me, Serenity represents the Buffy-fication of Firefly. Still has a diverting plot, still pleases the vast majority of Firefly fans who also adore Buffy, but character driven sci-fi it ain’t. The opening scene with Simon is an exemplum. Forget about the fact that Simon is given info he never had until Ariel, the problem with the scene is his kick-ass portrayal of an Alliance Officer. Acting is pretty hard for non-actors and acting undercover when your life is on the line staggeringly so. But here’s Simon all steely-eyed and balls-to-the-wall cool fooling the feds. Remember Jaynestown? Remember when Mal asked him to pretend to be a buyer, as in the totally unsmooth “I’m a buyer” line? In Firefly, Simon’s steeliness developed slowly, painfully, realistically over many episodes, but he never became a good liar--just look at every dumb thing he ever told Kaylee. The Simon in the Alliance uniform is smoooooooth, and the Simon of Firefly is anything but smooth. As fan-fiction though, Simon’s impersonation is awesome--Go Simon!

Nitpick time. Okay, Simon is informed of the goal of River's treatment -- but not the specifics. The administrator refers to "Stripping" the subject's brain, but Simon needed medical specifics. That's what he was after on Ariel.

Speaking of Ariel, check out Simon's performance there. Within the hospital, he is smooth, professional, and calm -- a good actor. Simon is nervous as "the buyer" because he's out of his element -- but disguise him as an authority figure in a "civilized" context, and he's able to handle it--it's familar turf.

And as to why Simon didn't tell the rest of the crew that River had been trained/tortured to be a human killing machine, it's probably because he didn't want them to toss her off the freaking ship! His goal, as the movie pointed out, was to keep River safe.

And by the time he clocks Mal, he's had a lot more time on the frontier. He's become more confident in his new role.

IMHO.

"She's tore up plenty. But she'll fly true." -- Zoë Washburn

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Wednesday, October 05, 2005 4:31 AM