GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Chrisisall, come save me! Let's talk Plot Holes.

POSTED BY: MIMA
UPDATED: Wednesday, October 5, 2005 06:14
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 5397
PAGE 1 of 1

Saturday, October 1, 2005 6:17 AM

MIMA


Disclaimer: I loved the movie. Not feeling happy fan feelings, as i'm in heavy grief over wash, but the following pesky details keep coming around in my mind because i'm detailed oriented, and not without a brain even this deep in fandom. These are not in any order of irritation or chronology.

DUH! spoilers! I mean, the movie's out people, don't come to these boards if you haven't seen it by now. it's OUT, it's all fair game.

1. The sound in space- already heard people moaning about it. I'll take care of this one:
it was upper atmo of a planet.

2. Another I already heard and disagreed with is the operative shooting mal in the back. it was obviously some sort of electricity stun gun, not a bullet gun.

3. why didn't they just broadcast the found miranda recording from miranda?

4. when they landed on mr. universe's planet (sorry didn't catch the name), the ship was TOAST. even with a beautifully equipped facility undamaged by the vengeful alliance, i'm thinking the reaver's ship was blocking them, and there was no planetside way to get those boosters reattached.

5. the operative's cracked back. ummm, maybe his guys had a super duper medical lab on the ship they landed with? mal said something to the effect that the operative helped with the healing of his crew at the end, but a cracked back, especially with mal's lack of finesse? and the operative had body armor on? relatively stiff?

6. would a True Believer, as inara put it, really go so far as to help them? i believed the sort of lame deus ex machina "free from kill" but to then actually stay and help patch them, and possibly the ship?

7. on miranda, why didn't someone stay with serenity.

8. on miranda, why didn't they slap their helmets back on as soon as they id'd the possibility of poison.

9. zoe's questioning of mal after the mule chase.
i was like "whaaaaat?"

10. when serenity came to rest at mr. universe's hangar, she was cockeyed and pointing up, with a small clearance between the cockpit and the hangar roof. when the reavers came in after them, they sat down right in front of them right? (a little foggy on the action sequence there) but still, the cockpit was waaaay up there. how did the reaver harpoons come *down* through the cockpit to get wash? if they were firing harpoons to anchor the ship, they would have targeted the belly that was showing like a dying creature. the reavers had already been set up to avoid distance kills. i don't think they would have decimated the cockpit like that in the understanding there would be key people there they would probably want revenge on.

11. despite everything about the craziness of the reavers, they supposedly still have the ability to reason and plan, focus and perform. they even coordinate a rough defense of "their" space, with security lights and such.

12. the operative would not leave mr. universe alive. he would not have been able to live long enough for that message.

13. mr. universe clearly lived on some sort of a compound, richly equipped. where are all the people? why was the compound intact after the operative left it? as in, at haven, everything was destroyed.

14. why did river walk into the same bar as mal when they seemed to be taking their leave at the ship? where was simon?

15. did mal really leave all his money in the bar? i thought it was just their payment, but then they were demanding more, and it seemed they would only have done that if they were in a position to get it right then.

16. what was jayne's intent when he went into the area with river? where were her handcuffs?

17. how was the operative able to control his little escape pod with enough accuracy to get back to mr. universe's home. and enter so easily/sneakily into an unknown building. seems even if he managed to land nearby, he would have walked up to an entrance of some sort. it would have taken considerable time to discover the tried and true "heating duct" entrance.

18. i'm assuming the memory that river says "isn't hers" was the lady in the recording. why does hearing it suddenly cure her? it was only one piece of a complex torture the alliance put her through.

19. why was the original doctor in charge of river's "treatment" in charge of some sort of archives? even if it was that facilities archives, why would he be on the first line of confrontation? and why did the operative kill him? that was a little co-inkydink.

20. what the FUCK is joss going to do to balance the crew now that the 2 characters who supplied gentle reason are gone? kaylee's emotional naivite toward people in no way compensates for book and wash's level headedness and humorous diffusion. inara? she's a straight man, not so much on the humor. {i know i know, this isn't so much as a plot hole as a future sequel line. sorry, just had a little fit as i'm working myself up about the movie.}

21. (from my husband) why was there no scene of emotional impact from the crew over wash's death? at the time of the crisis, ok. but i saw the same level of sadness at wash's funeral as i saw at Tracey's. Zoe being stoic in front of others, even at wash's funeral, i can understand. "we're very private people." she wouldn't share that level of emotion with any of them except maybe mal. i wanted even a one second scene of her devastation alone in her bunk, or in her bunk in mal's arms. but everyone else (except maybe jayne) should have been WRECKED at the triple burial. i feel betrayed at their bittersweet smiles.

22. another one i took care of for my husband: inara got her weapon from her convenient trunk left behind. (and i loved the detail of her without all her personal supplies looking unmakeup'ed at the end.)

23. why didn't the collision with the reaver shuttle after the catching of the mule damage the ship more? why didn't the mother ship go after them? they NEVER let prey escape.

24. another one i've heard people moaning over is the disconnect of backstory over simon. i'm fine with it. he didn't really know what they did to her.

25. mr. universe was supposed to be a secret? mal is thinking the operative would not be able to find him? he's so paranoid his only contact is a robot, and he just tells them where to find him over space transmission? he would have told them where to go to upload the recording to him. it would NOT have to have been done from his pad.

i think i'm out for the moment. other's will help. i'm looking for explanations from fans, not feeling any righteousness about it (ok except maybe for the funeral scene).

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, October 1, 2005 8:44 AM

BROWNCOATMONK


3. They said they didn't have enough 'something' (don't recall the exage verbage) to broadcast it from there and more importantly Mr. Universe had enough power to broadcast to everywhere in the system at the same time.

4. That was no small facility and apparently ships are made very interchangable/juryriggable/adaptable (think of the ~7+ year old fleet of the Reavers--the things still fly and those guys don't look like the most facidious of engineers).

5. I thought he dislocated both shoulders (and probably tore the rotator cuffs) of the operative. It fits visually and practically (too hard to put one shoulder back if both are out no matter how tough you are).

6. True believer in the better world for humanity. Well that video was the very evidence that he was actually working against that better world while Malcolm and crew were doing the right thing.

8. The poison had been diluted/absorbed/disappated from the city's vents (and not being continually produced and added) by the time they arrived.

9. Moral questioning after near death experience. Not unheard off.

10. Did seem a little strange to me too.

11. I'm thinking that was more of an ad-hoc inspection. These people are beyond normal levels of craziness--they are essentially alien at this point.

12. I disagree here. He just doesn't think anything of Mr. Universe. Stabs him a is done with him. Same M.O. as earlier with the laboratory researcher.

15. After all that violence the twins probably felt that they'll work on getting that 15% another time. By volume that wasn't all of the money they got earlier.

20. Damn good question.

21. They were already experiencing serious levels of shock and fatigue after seeing women and children killed (and Book) because of them. In addition to nearly getting blasted by both the Reaver fleet and the Alliance fleet. Probably not getting much sleep for the previous few days also. That will dull your emotional response for sure.

23. No, they always chase. The chasers got killed. The others were um 'busy.'

25. I wondered about that too.






Browncoat Monk

Ain't no place I can be since I found Serenity...

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, October 1, 2005 10:00 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

The biggest plot hole of the movie is indeed in regards to the message that they want Mr. Universe to upload to the 'verse.

You see, they are in live, real-time communication with Mr. Universe. They see him on the screen in Serenity. They talk to him. How hard is it to play the clip for him, have him tape it, and then disseminate it through the system? Why, when they are already chatting live, do they need to physically deliver the tape?

It's purely so that the trap of the Operative can be sprung, and the counter-trap of the Reavers can be sprung, and a healthy confrontation can ensue.

One other thing that bothered me...

They mount this big gun on Serenity. Then they fly into Reaver territory for the first time. You can see on the external shot that there is a space-suit outside the ship. Someone is manning the gun.

Then they switch to an interior shot. Everyone is looking out at the Reavers surrounding them, looking tense and afraid. But... Everyone who could possibly be manning that gun is in the cockpit.

Oops. :-)

Still, a great film, in my opinion.

--Anthony



"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, October 1, 2005 12:07 PM

CITIZEN


Quote:

DUH! spoilers! I mean, the movie's out people, don't come to these boards if you haven't seen it by now. it's OUT, it's all fair game.

Word of caution, its out in America, not the rest of the world...



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you Beeeer Milkshakes!
Zen Buddhist to the Hotdog Vendor:
"Make me one with everything."

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, October 2, 2005 3:44 PM

BROWNCOATMONK


The gun was manned with a dead corpse in a suit. As the form is seen hanging half off as if he was lifeless. When they come back through it looks like Jayne was in that same hanging over orientation right before he engages.


Browncoat Monk

Ain't no place I can be since I found Serenity...

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, October 2, 2005 8:18 PM

FWIVOT


The biggest thing that had me scratching my head was why the operative called in every ship he could to handle one little firefly class ship that has no weapons. It just really seemed like a HUGE plot hammer so they could get the cool scenes with the reaver ships attacking.

Also, space is three dimensional. There should be no reason why they would have to fly through all the reaver ships to get to Miranda. Just fly around them, or above them, or below them. It might take a little more time, but considering the alternative, ANY captain would've done it.

..Kevin

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, October 3, 2005 12:28 AM

REGRESSION


Speaking of continuity, there is another goof.

When Book gets shot, and dies/is dying, he reaches up and places his bloodied left hand on Mal's cheek. Book's hand falls off, and then there is a shot of Mal. Face ALL CLEAN. Hmm. Maybe the blood was dry.
Nope. Next shot we see Mal talking to The Operative, with a blood stain on his cheek.

Heehee..

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, October 3, 2005 12:46 AM

RELFEXIVE


Quote:

Originally posted by fwivot:
Also, space is three dimensional. There should be no reason why they would have to fly through all the reaver ships to get to Miranda. Just fly around them, or above them, or below them. It might take a little more time, but considering the alternative, ANY captain would've done it.



If they flew around, it could take too long. Also, any Reaver ship that spotted them would immediately know they were lunch instead of friends. So going through the middle in disguise is both quicker and less dangerous... kinda. Heh.



"My God - you're like a trained ape. Without the training."
"Come a day there won't be room for naughty men like us to slip about at all..."
I know the secret.
http://www.theshadowdepository.co.uk/index.htm

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, October 3, 2005 1:32 AM

DONCOAT


I have the book "Serenity: The Official Visual Companion", which includes the shooting script (almost exactly the same as the final edit). It answers many of these questions.

Here are a few that others haven't covered (warning: I don't have my copy here right now, so this is from memory)...

2. Yes, a stun gun. We see the Operative take it from one of the spaceship crewmen just before he skips out in his escape pod.

5. The script states that we hear the Operative's arms breaking. I like the dislocated shoulder idea, though.

7. Well, there was this little problem of the Reavers attacking.

8. Kinda late at that point. It would have been smarter to stay suited up until they eliminated various other possibilites, such as a disease, but hey, the BDH's aren't always the brightest of bulbs. And they hadn't found any bodies yet.

10. The script describes the Reaver ships as being airborne and outside the hangar at that stage. I won't speculate on the Reavers' motivations.

11. The Reavers are ultra-aggressive, but not totally insane.

14. No answer in the script. Speculation: Simon was negotiating with some spaceship captain for passage; River wandered off in her usual spooky way and was psychically drawn to her friends.

15. I interpret this as the 25% they'd previously agreed on. The demand for 40% would be along the lines of, "Fork over another 15% if you ever want us to give you another job." Serenity wasn't all that far away.

16. Jayne was going to "take her for a ride", but exactly what he had in mind is never stated explicitly. Knowing Jayne...
As to the handcuffs, the script includes an extra scene that didn't make the final edit. River climbs to the top of the storeroom, tears a wire cage loose from the light, and uses it to pick the lock. This occurs just before Jayne comes in, which is why she's up there at that time. Maybe we'll see that on the Director's Cut DVD.

18. That's one I'd like to know too. I'm going to speculate and say that it didn't entirely "cure" her (after all, she's still psychic) but that it lightened her burden a lot, which gave her the feeling of being "all right". By the way, the memory wasn't that of the woman in the holo, since she was killed by Reavers not-soon-enough after the end of the recording. Presumably the information about Miranda was retrieved and known to one of the Parliament big shots that came to see River.

19. Facility's records. Think of the medical records in a doctor's office. And he was killed because he knew too much, same as the way the blue hands guys killed everybody on Ariel who came into contact with River.

20. Good question. For a moment I thought Mal was going to invite the Operative to join the crew. Silly me.

21. I think we may see some repercussions in a sequel. The VC book has a caption on a picture of Tudyk that states he could return in a sequel. No other cast member is so described, and it's not a misdirection since the book includes the whole script. I'm thinking flashback scenes, unless the whole sequel is a prequel.

22. Interestingly, VC includes a production photo of Inara shooting an actual bow and arrow, rather than the high-tech crossbow thingy. The latter was inserted in CGI post-production. Not sure why, but it's kind of interesting.

24. The bigger issue to me is that I'd always thought Simon had hired somebody to get River out, not that he'd gone in himself. He wasn't that sort of swashbuckler back then. OTOH, he's always been willing to do anything for River.

25. Mr. U was already in the Operative's hands at the time of that wave. He was saying whatever the Operative wanted him to.

I'm going to add one issue of my own, though, which has no answer in the script. It was at least a year, probably more llike 18 months, from the time that Simon broke River out until she was outed in the bar on Beaumonde. So what was the Operative doing all that time? How could it have taken so long for him to track her down? I can speculate: maybe he tried to trace Simon through his contacts (the people who got him into the facility), but ran into a dead end. Maybe the Operative wasn't called in right away, until the earlier attempts failed (we have to assume that the first Alliance agent failed to communicate anything about Mal and Serenity). Maybe they had to wait until River was exposed to the subliminal message, and she never was in all that time (huh? doesn't Serenity pick up wave broadcasts for entertainment?). Still, it was a delay they would hardly have been willing to tolerate, given the stakes.


NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, October 3, 2005 1:40 AM

DONCOAT


Oh, one other thing concerning the grieving. There's a very subtle scene near the end, when Zoe tells Mal the ship is greenlighted to fly. The entire discussion that follows is (on the surface) about Serenity. But it's also equally applicable to Zoe herself. For example, when Mal asks Zoe if she will fly, Zoe answers that she'll hold together. That wasn't just about Serenity.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, October 3, 2005 2:33 AM

TOMANTA


Quote:

Originally posted by DonCoat:
I'm going to add one issue of my own, though, which has no answer in the script. It was at least a year, probably more llike 18 months, from the time that Simon broke River out until she was outed in the bar on Beaumonde. So what was the Operative doing all that time? How could it have taken so long for him to track her down? I can speculate: maybe he tried to trace Simon through his contacts (the people who got him into the facility), but ran into a dead end. Maybe the Operative wasn't called in right away, until the earlier attempts failed (we have to assume that the first Alliance agent failed to communicate anything about Mal and Serenity). Maybe they had to wait until River was exposed to the subliminal message, and she never was in all that time (huh? doesn't Serenity pick up wave broadcasts for entertainment?). Still, it was a delay they would hardly have been willing to tolerate, given the stakes.




The above:
The Operative wasn't assigned the task of hunting Simon/River until recently... it's covered in the comics. The subliminal message had only been playing for a few weeks. And while Serenity probably does pick up entertainment feeds when they are able, Simon and River doesn't seem like an avid TV watcher to me :).

Also, I believe it's only been 8 months, not 18, since Serenity took the pair in.

4. The ship's repair would have taken time, and they had the Alliance help out a little.

8. Any sort of virus or disease would have died off with the population. They were in open air the entire time (until the rescue ship, which was open); any type of gas would have dissipated into the atmosphere.

13. Mr. Universe gets the short end of the stick in the movie. The novelization gives a cool explanation, however: he convinced the planetary computers that terraforming didn't hold and it was evacuated.

15. That was just Fanty & Mingo's 25%, and they took off with it (you can see this in the background if you look for it).

20. We'll have to wait to find out :).

25. During Mal's "I aim to misbehave" speech, Zoe points out that the Alliance probably knows about Mr. Universe. M.U. doesn't seem to be overly paranoid about the crew, and at that point the Alliance is already there.

My question is what the hell they would have done if the Alliance WASN'T there... they would have still had a fleet of pissed off reavers after them.

"Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government."

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, October 3, 2005 3:08 AM

THIEFJEHAT


24. I had wondered about this issue with Simon since I saw a pre-screening in June. After a lot of research into it, I and others determined that Simon never actually detailed how River was freed from the acadamy. In the pilot episode he describes how he came into contact with an underground movement. They tell him they can help break River out. He spends his small fortune and with their help, frees her. Although it seems that the TV show didn't intend for Simon to be directly involved in the retrieval operation, it doesn't directly contridict it either. After watching the film I assumed that the folks working in the Osiris underground were the ones that piloted the escape craft.

Another Simon issue was in regards to his willingness to slug Mal after the robbery almost went south. Simon was much more timid in the TV show, where did this agression come from? My explaination for that was 1. Concern for River and 2. He's been living as a pirate for months now. That'll change any man.



Do not fear me. Ours is a peaceful race, and we must live in harmony.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, October 3, 2005 12:15 PM

JACQUI


Quote:

Originally posted by DonCoat:
22. Interestingly, VC includes a production photo of Inara shooting an actual bow and arrow, rather than the high-tech crossbow thingy. The latter was inserted in CGI post-production. Not sure why, but it's kind of interesting.



The answer's also in the VC. It's in the scenes that were cut. In the earlier Companion house scenes, it shows Inara teaching the girls archery and, later, in the scene where Inara opens her trunk and looks through it, it also shows the bow and arrow.

The fact that they cut all the scenes that introduced the bow and arrow meant that they thought it might be too confusing for the audience to suddenly have Inara shooting one.

I'm not sure why, because having her shoot a high tech crossbow wasn't jarring at all in that respect (!). We still didn't get to see that she was trained in using it.

It still looked nifty. So it's all good.

And as for the Simon/escape thing. In the episode 'Serenity', Simon clearly states that his contacts would smuggle River out of the Academy in the cryo box and meet him at Persephone. In the story he told the crew, he had no part in the actual rescue. He also told them that he had absolutely no idea as to the things they'd done to her.

Joss has since claimed that Simon originally lied to the crew. He wasn't at a point where he trusted them yet. So... he lied. About that, and about being told basically *everything* that had been done to her, including knowing the safety word.

*~*~*
"Your toes are in the sand."
"And your head's up your..."
"Hey!"

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, October 3, 2005 12:25 PM

DONCOAT


Quote:

I believe it's only been 8 months, not 18, since Serenity took the pair in.
Well, I don't claim to be an expert, but I thought the movie took place (will take place?) 8 months after the series ends (with Objects In Space). That's why I suggested 12-18 months from "Serenity" to "Serenity" .

Quote:

My question is what the hell they would have done if the Alliance WASN'T there... they would have still had a fleet of pissed off reavers after them.
It looked to me as though Mal deliberately attacked the Reavers by nailing them with the cannon -- the idea being to draw the rest of the flotilla after them. Er... but maybe you meant they couldn't be sure there was a whole fleet of Alliance warships on hand. I guess I don't have an answer for that. Maybe Mal was practising Book's admonition to Believe?

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, October 3, 2005 3:29 PM

CHRISISALL


3) they obviously would have if they could have, but they couldn't because....they couldn't.
10) They fired as they were approaching to land; they might have also spotted Wash as an easy mark visually through the window, or using heat detection. (?)

Still too shocked to think it all through clearly Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, October 3, 2005 6:33 PM

TIGER


double post, sorry - see below

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, October 3, 2005 6:33 PM

TIGER


Quote:

3. why didn't they just broadcast the found miranda recording from miranda?
One of the crew says outright they need Mr. Universe to do it. Why didn't they play it for Mr. U from the ship and let him record it? What do you do with a CD if you don't have a CD player? I don't think they had the equipment.

Quote:

4. when they landed on mr. universe's planet the ship was TOAST. there was no planetside way to get those boosters reattached.
I think we were supposed to assume the Alliance won the air battle, then helped the crew fix her up. I'm sure they have lots of cool repair-type stuff.

Quote:

5. the operative's cracked back. ummm...
I'm pretty sure it was his shoulders, both dislocated. I've had that happen - OUCH.

Quote:

6. would a True Believer, as inara put it, really go so far as to help them?
I guess so, because he did. :-) Really, it could have gone either way, I think.

Quote:

7. on miranda, why didn't someone stay with serenity.
I think it was purely so the audience could see everyone's reaction to the Pax message. Not a big hole, something easily forgiven.

Quote:

10.how did the reaver harpoons come *down* through the cockpit to get wash?
I didn't seem that cockeyed to me and it didn't look too near the ceiling, plus the reaver ship was still in the air. Have to get some still shots to be sure though.

Quote:

11. despite everything about the craziness of the reavers, they supposedly still have the ability to reason and plan
Ever know a regular steroid user? They can drive a car, make dinner etc., but boy if you push the wrong button you'd have an easier time convincing a grizzly he doesn't want to eat you. I think of the reavers as people on a REALLY REALLY bad roid rage.

Quote:

18. i'm assuming the memory that river says "isn't hers" was the lady in the recording. why does hearing it suddenly cure her?
I think the Miranda memory was the dam in the river of her stability, and getting the info out, seeing it for real herself broke the dam, and allowed the flow of reason to begin again.

Quote:

23.why didn't the mother ship go after them? they NEVER let prey escape.
Who says they never let prey escape? Maybe they had all the fresh meat they wanted back in town......

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, October 3, 2005 7:25 PM

SNEAKER98


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
One other thing that bothered me...

They mount this big gun on Serenity. Then they fly into Reaver territory for the first time. You can see on the external shot that there is a space-suit outside the ship. Someone is manning the gun.

Then they switch to an interior shot. Everyone is looking out at the Reavers surrounding them, looking tense and afraid. But... Everyone who could possibly be manning that gun is in the cockpit.


I can field that one. In the Visual Guide, it says the figure manning the gun is a corpse in a space suit. I suspect they did it so that the Reavers wouldn't realize something was different when a man was on top at the gun when they were coming back.

I figure Mal thought they could only use that trick once.

"I do the job... and then I get paid. Go run your little world."
-Malcolm Reynolds

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, October 3, 2005 8:05 PM

BROWNCOATISH


Hello, my first post, so please be kind...This is a fun thread, and I can't resist!

As a huge sci-fi fan I was surprised at just how tight Joss Whedon made this extremely intricate story. Most of the "holes" raised in this thread have been well answered, but a few comments:

On why the Operative helped the crew at the end:

NOT cheesy! The whole movie led up to him behaving this way.

I think the Operative thought of himself as a pure Samurai. He was unwaveringly loyal to his soveriegn (the alliance) and repeatedly mentioned that his purpose, or job, was everything to him. He had no name, no rank, no place in fair society, only purpose. A VERY samurai perspective. He also seemed legitimately affected and insulted when Mal called him an "assassin", as a Samurai surely would.

And, of course, he was a flawless martial arts killer who quoted Sun Tzu, encouraged his victims to fall on their swords, and was as polite as he was ruthless.

In my view, very Samurai indeed.

The climax of the film has Mal demonstrate for the Operative, the barbarous, unforgivable actions of his sovereign and he loses faith with them. Without a soveriegn, a Samurai cannot exist (he can go Ronin, but that's usually taboo).

For these reasons one of the best plot elements of the movie, and for me one of the most unexpected, is the operative ordering is men to stand down, speaking for our heroes to the parliament and seeing to their (extensive) repairs.

He's honor bound. Mal didn't kill him, and Mal was right on the issue they warred over. Honor was due.

When Mal warns the operative that he will kill him if he ever sees him again, the response is:

"You won't. There's nothing left to see."

That's a Samurai admitting he's dishonored himself by serving a lie. In his eyes, because he no longer had purpose, he no longer exists. And, in all likelihood, he will soon commit ritual suicide because he has no other honorable recourse.

A "good" death, to use his words.



...

Of course, that's just me taliking.

;)

...

Now, as to why the crew couldn't have beamed Mr. Univers the film for broadcast... there you got me.

Maybe a rebroadcast signal cw\ould be technologically interpreted as a fake, maybe they didn't trust Mr. Universe to do it outside their direct scrutiny, maybe the nebula presented some kind of freakish interference?

I don't have a good answer for that one...

_____

Finally, on Wash getting nailed... I don't think he's killed by a harpoon, I think he's killed by a "claw". We see many Reaver ships with crab-like claws that they use (for some mysterious reason) to rend ships into pieces. If that's what hit him, the angle would make more sense. The Reaver "claw ship" could be perched on top of the bridge reaching/slashing down and in.

The spear that shoots at and misses Mal and Zoe just afterwards looks like an altogether different thing. Whatever hit Was was thick, more than a foot in diameter.

____

As to why no one stayed on Serenity... it was swarming with Reavers and wasn't safe. The entire crew had a better chance in the permanent structure outside..

It's not like Serenity was going any place without Atmo engines.

:)


And, my last comment...

___

When Wash died, I was stunned, and a bit panicked, That dread and fear bred a tension to the final minutes of the movie I haven't felt since I was a child and didn't know any better.

If Joss was prepared to kill Wash... who woudln't he kill? My heart was pounding, and frankly, I thought Simon was a goner. To kill Wash was a painful thing to do, but it was the right thing to do for the story because it made the ending an unforgettable, entirely unsafe experience.

I mean, seriously, what Firefly Fan can ever forget the moment when Wash dies, or his final words?

...and for those of you with "Return of Spock", "Wash can be cloned" fantasies, that's not Joss Whedon's way. Wash is dead. Those he left behind will have to adapt.

...but he might be in a flashback.

:)

Anyway, great thread, this is a great crowd, thanks for letting me share. If not for this site and certain browncoatish friends of mine, I would never have been exposed to this story, bought the DVD, or experienced such a wonderul movie as thoroughly as I did.

- Browncoatish

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, October 3, 2005 8:08 PM

MEIMEI9


Does any know the answer to this question? Right before the heist, Simon injects something into Mal's arm. Any idea what that was?

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, October 3, 2005 10:04 PM

INLOVEWITHMAL


When Mal first bumps into Simon after yelling at Kaylee about crashing he says "Guess I need to get innocked 'fore we hit plenetside" so i figure it's a simple protective injection against strange diseases.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, October 3, 2005 10:30 PM

THECRAZYIVAN


13. mr. universe clearly lived on some sort of a compound, richly equipped. where are all the people? why was the compound intact after the operative left it? as in, at haven, everything was destroyed.

The novelization of the movie answers that...

Mr. Universe told the planet in an official Alliance message (cuz hes an uber hacker...so he can do that) that they were un-terraforming...so they evacuated with everythings still intact. My Universe swooped down and obtained the planet. That cloud covering it keeps any suspicious people away...since it was officially de-terraformed and no longer was habitable.

Just read the book..lol

~~~~~~~~~~
"There is a sense that this is still not over. It's hard to put a finger on what's so special about this project and about this group of people, but it's just one of those things you have to trust in, and relish. I am very, very proud."
---Jewel Staite on "Firefly" and "Serenity" in "Finding Serenity" (essay collection by Jane Espenson)

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 1:29 AM

DONCOAT


Oops, I see I misinterpreted question 7, about leaving someone aboard Serenity. I read it as applying to their final landing on Mr.U's planetoid, but it was actually about the visit to Miranda. (I'm not the only one to make the slip, it seems! Welcome from another recent delurkee, Browncoatish.)

I agree that was probably for dramatic reasons. Of course, it's not the first time they've left the ship unguarded on potentially unfriendly territory (see "Heart of Gold"). Presumably they locked the door this time, at least!

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 2:47 AM

TOMANTA


Quote:

Originally posted by DonCoat:
Quote:

I believe it's only been 8 months, not 18, since Serenity took the pair in.
Well, I don't claim to be an expert, but I thought the movie took place (will take place?) 8 months after the series ends (with Objects In Space). That's why I suggested 12-18 months from "Serenity" to "Serenity" .

Quote:

My question is what the hell they would have done if the Alliance WASN'T there... they would have still had a fleet of pissed off reavers after them.
It looked to me as though Mal deliberately attacked the Reavers by nailing them with the cannon -- the idea being to draw the rest of the flotilla after them. Er... but maybe you meant they couldn't be sure there was a whole fleet of Alliance warships on hand. I guess I don't have an answer for that. Maybe Mal was practising Book's admonition to Believe?



There is a line in the movie (after the incident at the maidenhead) where Mal says they've been on the ship for 8 months. (I think the timeline doesn't quite match up right, myself, and we had been told that the film was 6 months or so after the series ends. Somewhere someone is wrong, but I'd say the script is the one to go with).

As for the PO'd reaver fleet: I know the how and why that the movie showed. I know Mal thought there was a fleet of alliance warships at MU's place. I was just wondering what Mal would have done if he was WRONG :). Then again, Serenity seemed to be faster than the other ships (After all, none of the reavers caught up with them on the way to MU's place. The space battle slowed Serenity down some), they could have probably made it to MU's place and transmitted the signal before they got eaten alive. I'm sure MU would have appreciated that.

"Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government."

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 4:11 AM

TOMMYGUN


Quote:

Originally posted by mima:
9. zoe's questioning of mal after the mule chase.
i was like "whaaaaat?"


Which part? If you mean her talking about how Mal shot the guy, etc., I think that was simply explaining to the non-Browncoat audience. It explains that reavers are awful, that Mal was actually *helping* the guy by shooting him, etc.

If you mean about Mal kicking the guy off the mule in the first place, I don't really know, but probably the same reason, just more explanation. If you mean something entirely different, sorry.

Quote:


12. the operative would not leave mr. universe alive. he would not have been able to live long enough for that message.


Agreed. He should take his own life for a mistake like that (uh, by his code, not mine...).

Quote:


17. how was the operative able to control his little escape pod with enough accuracy to get back to mr. universe's home. and enter so easily/sneakily into an unknown building.


Unknown?! He was just there like 20 min. ago killing Mr. Universe! (Am I misunderstanding?)

Quote:


21. (from my husband) why was there no scene of emotional impact from the crew over wash's death?


Easy, because THEY'RE NOT REALLY DEAD! *keeps repeating over and over again to himself* Seriously though, it could be something tricky that will be explained in the sequel, but that's the topic of another thread. That kinda bothered me too though.

"Well...here I am...."

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 4:49 AM

CARMENCITA


Great thread. Most people already responded how I would to the questions about plot holes. Forgive the repetition, but I wanted to respond to all the original ones with my own words.

3: (Why didn't they just broadcast the feed to Mr. Universe from Miranda?) Remember when Mr. Universe says the ion cloud would play "merry hob" with their radar, I wonder if that would affect any recorded transmission, even if they were able to communicate person-to-person. And yeah, Serenity didn't look like it had that little disc player thing. I mean, it would have probably been in the cockpit, no? I never saw anything like it. Remember, the Firefly is old, way older than the catastrophe on Miranda.

4:(How did Serenity get off Mr. Universe's planet after it was all torn to bits?) Some of the Alliance ships are HUGE facilities, anyone remember the vertical green and black one from the series? That was like a whole small moon. I would not be surprised if they had enough stuff to refit the ship. Getting to it would have been hard. They may have used some gigantic mega-power crane to rip off the top of the facility to get to the ship and be able to pick it up.

5: This has already been covered but yeah, I thought the Op's arms were dislocated below the shoulderblades,although apparently they were broken, and Mal did this so that the Op wouldn't be able to reach anything and would have trouble getting up before watching the entire holocast.

6: The person who typed up the comparison of the Operative to a samurai answered this question beautifully, so I feel no need to add.

7: On Miranda, I think no one stayed with Serenity because they really didn't know what to expect on the planet and I think they were all scared as hell and wanted to stick together. Usually Wash stays with the ship but it seemed like he was tracking the beacon, maybe the others couldn't do it so well?

8: (Why didn't they put on their space helmets after the thought someone might have been killed by poison): I think when they found the first corpse and were talking about poison they didn't mean in the air, but something ingested. Also they had a lot of little scanners to test and see if the planet was free from toxins, radioactivity et cetera. Who is to say it couldn't scan for other dangers in the air as well?

9: (Zoe questioning Mal after the mule chase) I think she was reminded of so many others in their platoon who were killed who they would have never left. Remember, she never questions Mal unless she thinks something is really out of place. Also, Mal is a lot darker at the start of the movie (and why wouldn't he be, look what happened to them in the comics) and I think Zoe is trying to make sure he is making balanced decisions.

10: (Serenity facing a way that would seem difficult for the Reavers to shoot harpoons at, etc) This one, like many, I think is a valid question but I would have to watch the scene again frame by frame to be certain.

11: (About the Reavers still being able to reason a bit) Admittedly, I thought some of them were really just looking like orc zombies, although they were still scary because of their uncontrollable rage. They only seem to use reason occassionally when they are not in contact with other people, and I think Reavers probably kill each other very,very often. But when it's a mass attack you get a feeding frenzy,and all reason goes flying out the window.

12: (The Operative wouldn't leave Mr. Uni alive) Well, I think he was a little distracted, Mal was starting to actually get to him and make him angry. Also, I think he thought if by some chance the sword hadn't instantly killed him, that the Alliance people he left behind to destroy communications would have finished him off had Mr. Universe regained consciousness. They were not very thorough. After all,they didn't even touch the LoveBot.

13: (Where were all the people on Mr.Universe's planet) Again, the novelization covers this, but... from the movie we can tell that Mr Universe is a hermit who much prefers reading and sending and playing with the signal to being with others. His Lov Bot is evidence of his lack of desire to socialize with actual humans. He pirated his own planet and I'm sure everything was automated. He probably even had his food and supplies delivered through something you could pre-program for a destination... like the trash receptacles in the episode "Trash" from Firefly. He could be completely autonomous.

14: (Why did River go into the same bar as the crew?) I really don't know, except that she was drawn to the crew, or maybe there was a trail of signals on the screens leading to the bar, other little things in code to entice her to watch the Fruity Oaty Bar commerical. I'm really pulling this outta my ass, but there could be a lot of better explanations. It's still a really good question.

15: (Did Mal really leave his money in the bar?) If you watch the movie again after Mal has toed the bag over to Fanty and Mingo there is a verbal exchange and Mal says, "You gotta sweet take kissing your foot..." So his money is probably back on Serenity, and all that was in the bag was for the twins... again the originally agreed upon 25%. The twins eventually were scared shitless by River's crazy martial antics and preferred to escape sooner with the money they had rather than risk denting Fanty's prettier face.

16: (Jayne's intent when he went into River's holding chamber and the handcuffs) Obviously, Jayne had no good intentions. He could have been talking true about the shuttle ride, that he was just going to dump her somewhere... or he could have been preparing to kill her. As for the handcuffs, in the previous scene between Simon and River, there is at least one moment where the camera goes to her wrists and you can see and hear her twisting them, arranging them (ie. probably preparing to remove them somehow). She's a genius and very bendy with small wrist, so I'm sure they didn't offer her a challenge for long.

17: (How was the operative able to control his escape pod and how did he know how to get inside Mr Universe's place) Pods can go short distances only, but could probably be programmed a bit. The planet was super-close to his location. As for entering the facility... he had already done so to kill Mr. Universe, so he knew exactly how to get in and probably the layout of the entire place.

18: (The memory that River says "isn't hers" was the lady in the recording so why does hearing it suddenly cure her?) River picked up the memory from the 'key memebers of parliament', she actually refers to them when she's talking to Simon in the holding chamber. She talks about how the doctor (whose sin was pride) "Showed her off like a dog" to the parliament made up of "Old men covered in blood, never touched them but their drowning in it". She's saying that even though the government's higher ups delegated what happened on Miranda (as well as the cover up)so they weren't involved directly, the blood is still on their hands. And the Miranda thing was part of what was driving her mad and so at that moment after she threw up, now that she felt the word might get out, that the people who died had been heard by someone finally... she felt a lot better. I for one still think she's still crazy. Although the Reavers won't kirk her out so much because people know who they are,and the government cannot easily deny their existence now.

19: (About why the Operative killed the doc and how he was connected to the archives) Already been touched upon, but basically, the doctor was one of the few who knew about the experiments and he needed to have access to the archives to record and review data and River's progress (deterioration) He knew too much. The Operative didn't know what the secret was, therefore, he couldn't be sure that the doctor didn't know it. Better safe than sorry.

20: (How is Joss going to balance the crew with Wash and Book gone?) I have no idea. But he will find a way to do something. I really can't see Serenity being complete without them, but I love them movie and the series and so will be happy just to have a sequel and be excited to see what Joss cooks up.

21: (Why did we see no emotional impact from the crew about the deaths) Well, from Book's death the emotional impact led Mal to go on a crazy suicide mission to try to get to Miranda. It led him to believe in something. And I think the crew wouldn't have followed, except they were impacted by Book's death as well. And I think they were all in shock when they crash landed on Mr.Universe's planet. I think the funeral was more emotional than Tracey's. Kaylee was weeping something fierce and River was falling apart. Zoe had gone back to soldier mode. Also, the funeral happened several days after they and their ship had been patched up. At least! So I am sure there was a lot of mourning and interraction that wasn't shown on screen. And it would have been meaningful to us fans, but not so much to the average viewer.

22: (Why didn't the collision with the reaver shuttle after the catching of the mule damage the ship more? Why didn't the mother ship go after them? They NEVER let prey escape.) Only the top of the reaver shuttle/ship hit Serenity, it scraped off a bit and sent it hard in, Mal had to jump up to avoid it. I don't think the hit was that severe, especially since Serenity was a lot bigger than the Reaver vehicle. And remember, Reavers get bored easily. They ended up giving up on trying to get the people in the vault.... there is a news wave in the Maidenhead that says that the only people to survive the attack had locked themselves in the vault.. The reavers were occupied raping and cutting to death an entire village of inhabitants. They lost interest in chasing Mal and crew.

24: (About Simon and the backstory of how he helped River): It doesn't actually directly contradict even what Simon said in "Firefly". He said the people got her out and put her in cryo... well the tool they used to get her out was Simon. Also, Simon could have glossed over the details of his involvement to protect River. He had just met the crew.... but this has been covered.

25: (Mr. Universe was supposed to be a secret?) When Mal says, "They're not gonna see this coming" He is talking about getting the entire fleet of Reavers to come chase him and bringing down their mad wrath on the Alliance ships.

This is an excellent thread and I love that you guys are still fans but can thoughtfully critique the movie. Some have accused Browncoats of getting mad at anyone who doesn't love the movie and think it's flawless. I know that isn't true, just because some elements of the film are shaky doesn't mean we didn't enjoy it, or that it is of a higher caliber than most sci fi in recent years... higher caliber than almost all the movies this year.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 6:36 AM

DONCOAT


Couple further thoughts about...

22. The mule wasn't damaged worse because it and Serenity were going the same direction. Serenity was just going somewhat faster. It would have been impossible to do the maneuver if the mule had been closing on Serenity; that's why Wash told Zoe to swing around.

Why didn't the Reavers follow? Here's my speculation: only that one shuttle full of Reavers ever saw the BDHs. With their blood up, they just took off after the mule, and never communicated to the rest of the raiding party. Then, the collision with Serenity caused the shuttle to crash, killing the remaining Reavers in that group or at least knocking out their comm and transport. The rest of them went on with their merry raping-to-death spree, never realizing that part of their number was missing until Serenity was well away (if ever).

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 7:05 AM

SAINTPROVERBIUS


Quote:

Originally posted by Browncoatish:
NOT cheesy! The whole movie led up to him behaving this way.

I think the Operative thought of himself as a pure Samurai. He was unwaveringly loyal to his soveriegn (the alliance) and repeatedly mentioned that his purpose, or job, was everything to him. He had no name, no rank, no place in fair society, only purpose. A VERY samurai perspective. He also seemed legitimately affected and insulted when Mal called him an "assassin", as a Samurai surely would.



I think more to the point is that he's an idealist. The Alliance isn't the ideal, it's the world without sin thing. The Alliance is just who he thinks can bring that world without sin forth.

He said to Mal that they were both monsters and had no place in the world without sin he was working towards. Mal not only showed him that the Alliance had tried to make a world without sin and it resulted in suicidal apathy as well as psychotic Reavers who are monsters well beyond what Mal and the Operative do. The Alliance just covered it all up and even the Operative didn't seem to know what happenned on Miranda. When confronted with such, any illusion he might have had about the Alliance being the hope for such an ideal was probably cracked if not completely shattered.

I never really questionned why he had a change of heart after finding out what the Alliance did at Miranda. It just made sense that he would given his ideal and what the Alliance did.


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 7:22 AM

WEICHI


Browncoatish - really nice first post. I totally agree - "There is nothing left to see", the operative is totally heading for the ritual suicide thing.

As for the "why didn't they just fax it" to Mr. Universe, well, others have pointed out they may not have had the tech - but also maybe the full on holagram would have had necessary veritas to not be blown off as a fake.

Most importantly, however, the Alliance was there, just faxing it would not have worked. Now as to why it was not tried, technology cooperating, Mal is paranoid enough to want to deliver it personal, and they were not far, and they sure did not want to stay where they were anyway.

See how I'm not punching him, I think I've grown!

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 8:19 AM

RHUTTNER


Quote:

Originally posted by Tomanta:

There is a line in the movie (after the incident at the maidenhead) where Mal says they've been on the ship for 8 months. (I think the timeline doesn't quite match up right, myself, and we had been told that the film was 6 months or so after the series ends. Somewhere someone is wrong, but I'd say the script is the one to go with).




Did you mean the script is the one to go with being wrong or right?

You are right that there is a line that says the movie takes place 8 months after the episode Serenity. If the movie takes place 6 months after OiS, then the entire series takes place in only 2 months. This is hard to believe, especially since half a year takes place between OMR and Trash.

Even if months and years have a different meaning, its still hard to accept.

I think the 6 months later is wrong. Its more believable to think that the movie takes place 2 months after OiS than 6.

I'm not sure where the 6 months came from, but the novel supports it.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 8:40 AM

DUG


My take on 11. (Reaver insanity. if you don't want to scroll up and see what 11 was.)

The recording said that in a percentage of the population, the opposite from what killed the rest of the population took place. She goes on to talk about rage, but think about what killed the people of Miranda: It was more than passivity. It was complete apathy and like of drive to even eat.

Reavers aren't just mindless zombies bitten by rage-inbfected monkeys. The Reavers still remember being nice cuddly people, but can't stop their own rage inspired actions, so they hate themselves as much as others. That begins to explain the self mutilation. I also see the Reavers as not only consumed by rage but consumed by uncontrollable OCD. Unlike the Mirandans who couldn't do anything, they literally cannot stop doing things. They decorate their ships; they tinker with them even when they become unsafe; they mutilate themselves out of unbearable self hatred and they make really creative weapons. They're intelligent, controlled insanity with a death wish that is just a little smaller than their wish to kill.

To sum it up; I don't see the Reavers as uncontrolled insanity. They're way scarier than that.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 9:08 AM

BLACKOUTNIGHTS


Yeah, the message thing bothered me too until I got to thinking about it. With Mr. Universe already in the hands of the Operative, no way does that message get out to the rest of the galaxy if it's taped and then rebroadcast. The only way is to get the Operative away from Mr. Universe. And Mal knows the Operative is there, so he isn't going to send the message until the coast is clear.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 9:31 AM

DRROB


Minor annoyances:

1. River goes back outside to get the med kit, close the door and save the day. And YET: no one uses the med kit. They all lay there, gasping for breath and gripping weapons... in fact they "lay down" that's just not cool. Jayne and Zoe are wounded, but are still ambulatory enough to keep pointing guns here and there. Simon is gut shot, and I'll allow the fact that he's not a 'tough guy' like Jayne and Zoe. Zoe has patched a bullet hole or two, as has Jayne. Kaylee is paralyzed and dying (that's why we got the med kit right?) Simon even says WHAT TO DO for Kaylee before he passes out... and what the heck is Inara doing during all this? Thats' a 'plot hole' that seems unforgivable in the 'love saves all/leave no one behind' message. I understand killing Wash to make us beleive everyone is now in danger (except Mal really) I thought for SURE Kaylee was gonna die.

2. Reavers have guns/darts etc right up until River goes outside. No one shoots at her.

3. Timeline for Simon?River: face it a lot of folks seeing the film never saw Firefly.. 'retelling' her escape is no big deal. Simon and Mal have traded fists before. The Safety word? A Plot Device, a small deus ex machina (otherwise he could have used it in OIS) again, a benefit for folks who never saw Firefly.

4. Jayne goes to kill River? Um RIVER CAN KILL HIM WITH HER BRAIN. Remember? That's one... well I didn't like that one at ALL. Maybe River 'makes' Jayne open the door--that would be better than Jayne forgetting he's afraid of the 90 pound girl that can kick his ass, or read his mind and KNOW what he's about to do.

5. The total lack of "hands of blue" guys... they never caught up with the crew in the show, Jubal Early wasn't one of them, The Operative is supposed to be worse than both. To a point, he is. But he's not inside your head making your brains explode scary. Unless the hands of blue guys did in the contacts the Operative couldn't reach. Even if it was just 'for the fans' if the "Director/Doctor" in the first part of the film done in by the Operative was wearing blue gloves you'd 'get' that bluegloves/blue sun were done trying to clean up the mess.

6. Where's the GORRAM song?

I still liked the movie a lot, in some ways I wish I hadn't seen the series first--it would have changed my expectations greatly.






"Guess you broke into the wrong rec room."

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 9:55 AM

BROWNCOATMONK


What's is this talk about firing a crossbow? I watched Inara carry a long package that easily would've held an unstrung bow. And she is clearly firing a bow and NOT a crossbow. If you mean the difference between a simple bow versus a compound bow (i.e. has pullies or something otherwise to reduce the amount of force needed to draw back the bow) then that would only be relevant to scenes that have been cut that may have shown conflicting bows (unknown to me maybe they don't at this point in my view). I have used all manner of archaic missile weapons and what *I* saw her use in the battle with the Reavers was most certainly a bow and NOT a crossbow.


Browncoat Monk

Ain't no place I can be since I found Serenity...

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 10:02 AM

BROWNCOATMONK


Quote:

5. The total lack of "hands of blue" guys...


They were explained away rather poorly in the comic book. I mean the comic was pretty weak in that regard--they have them trapped in the garbage compartment while floating in space, but they don't space them?!? Does Book 'kill' them? The crew gets away and no mention of what they did--which would've been to KILL THEM by spacing them--just ask the captain his opinion! I do think the Operative is just as scary as he is meant to be--calm confident capable cold-blooded zealotry is pretty scary when you think about.


Browncoat Monk

Ain't no place I can be since I found Serenity...

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 10:13 AM

MEIMEI9


Shiny!! Thanks InlovewithMal... I missed that

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 2:36 PM

MIMA


You guys are the best. thank you for your thoughtful and intelligent replies. I went insane not being able to get on the boards the last 3 days so i've been talking along the same lines over at browncoats. here's somethings i've picked up that are either new, or in disagreement to what you all have said.

3. the lack of broadcast from miranda- my favorite explanation is the ion cloud. forgot about that.

5. people keep saying the operative had dislocated shoulders. he clearly went utterly whole body limp, and was having trouble breathing/swallowing. i'm thinking back, but the alliance alpha ship would heal him, so i'm okay with that.

6. love the samurai description. it still just seems too much of a turn around/deus ex machina. but i'm gettin okay with it.

7. i had forgotten they all left the ship in HoG, thanks. and reavers were not on planet.

9. i was referring to the fact that she doesn't question mal like that. but someone pointed out how she waited until they were alone, which i liked.

10. i'll have to freeze frame that when i get the dvd. and btw joss is all "no directors cut. the movie is it" which i think sucks the big tuna.

11. reaver society is being made clear to me.

14. someone told me river walks in to get her cut of the job, as she was a full participant in this one. they said it was in the book.

16. jayne still thought she was in handcuffs, and someone says he's drunk ( he is pictured taking a swig of courage).

17. sorry this is still a plot hole for me. the little shuttle would have landed somewhere (CRASH) and he would have walked to a door, SEEN the reavers, and had to come in an alternative way. him knowing the facility layout down to the duct work is just OTT.

19. people are saying it's not because he knew too much, but that he clearly says in the film it was because he endangered the alliance through his hubris. the operative finds his negligence utterly unacceptable.

21. didn't see kaylee sobbing. didn't see river crying. and in the VC it says the rocket explodes into beautiful fireworks. was robbed of that moment too. joss knows grief. joss put the funeral in there to acknowledge the grief. of all the other "plot holes" i'm picking on, none of them are essential to losing enjoyment of the show, except for this emotional inconsistency. saying the new non-fans didn't need to see it is false too. he made wash just as beloved in the previous hour and half as he was to us. non fans were just as appalled as us, because everyone knows the one-buddy-dies rule.

22. there's clearly scenes where the original bow and arrow aren't cgi'd to match the close up scenes of her compound crossbow.

a new one: how did untechnical mal know how to upload the file (not just play it, but upload it to play all) at MU's backup machine. someone told me he took av club in high school. :P loved it.

another new one, and this relates to the above complaint about how no one went to help river.
kaylee had rigged the doors to fail to open again once they closed. they also had virtually no ammo left. the big plot hole others pointed out is how do the blast doors open on river's hero moment as she stands majestically (deservedly so) among piles of bodies? she isn't close enough to fuss with the wires... my idea was the alliance busting through the back wall actually broadcast an override all doors command from their ship.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 2:46 PM

MIMA


Quote:

Originally posted by DrRob:
Minor annoyances:

1. River goes back outside to get the med kit, close the door and save the day. And YET: no one uses the med kit.



the med kit is outside, with the reavers. the doors were rigged to lock by kaylee.

Quote:

2. Reavers have guns/darts etc right up until River goes outside. No one shoots at her.


they ran out? just like zoe and jayne.


Quote:

4. Jayne goes to kill River?


well i wasn't surprised he went, just that he thought he could get away with it. someone tells me he's drunk, and remember, he's thinking she's in handcuffs.

Quote:

5. The total lack of "hands of blue" guys...


joss is under no obligation to use all of the many plot arcs he didn't get to in the series. mal to book: sometime you have to tell me about... book to mal: no i don't

Quote:

6. Where's the GORRAM song?


it killed me that you said this. after all joss did to get it added for us. it was at the end of the credits, and specifically added just about a month before release due to fan requests. copyright wise, it wasn't the exact song, but it was the melody, in instrumental twangy guitar.




NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 5:56 PM

GREYRAVEN37


Nobody has mentioned it(probably because its not really a plot hole), but what do you all make of Mal getting impaled on the Operative's sword and being able to continue fighting (and living)?

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 7:12 PM

STAKETHELURK


Lots of neat stuff here. I think I’ll pick out what I want to talk about, though it’s mostly already been covered:

“Why didn’t they just send the message to Mr. Universe?”
They don’t send the message because they know the Alliance is there. And Mr. Universe (who is shown to be on Mal’s side later with the lovebot recording) never even asks them to send it to him--so the crew doesn’t have to come up with some awkward explanation for why they can’t send it, just to keep the Operative from knowing they’re onto his trap. And that’s why they then get the Reavers to chase after them, because they know the Operative will be there (and by this point it makes sense for him to be going for the overkill, calling in every ship in the quadrant--Mal’s slipped past him too many times).

“Why does the Operative change his mind so quickly?”
Well, others have gone into his honor code above, but they haven’t talked about his self loathing. “I’m a monster” he says to Mal, “I know what I do is evil, but it is necessary.” He is probably more tainted than the people he hunts, but the only thing that justifies his actions is his belief in this great ideal. He performed great evil in the name of a “better world,” and the evidence on the recording invalidates everything he’s done. It destroys the careful moral structure that allows him to commit evil in the name of good. He now sees that all the moral sacrifices he made were for nothing. So, not only would he feel it the honorable thing to help Mal, he’d be deeply traumatized and f**king pissed off at the Parliament for lying to him, for letting him become this monster in the name of a lie. And that seems plausible to me.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 9:36 PM

LIMINALOSITY


Hey all, I admit to being a serious lurker, been visiting this site since somewhere around last Christmas. I haven't signed up till now, but this pirate ship really is something worth boarding. So, ahem, this is my first post though I've had a Blue Sun t shirt for months. Thanks for letting me read over your shoulders.

Plot hole disection is always so much fun...thanks, MIMA for coming up with some beauts. Also thanks for mentioning that Joss made a special effort to pop in the song at the end of the credits, I was glad to hear the song, and it's heartwarming that he put it in at the last minute for the fanatics.

#3 re: broadcasting from Serenity...isn't there a possibility that the Alliance would have intercepted the signal and shot it down? Seems like that's what Mr. U is about: circumventing the powers that be, who'd have cut out controls over any broadcast.

#12 re: the snugglebott...maybe Mr. Universe programmed her beforehand to play the message in the event of his death, knowing that Mal might come? I don't know, that was an eye roller for me, a little more rabbit out of the hat than Joss usually goes for in a device.

#14 re: River in the Maidenhead - how about that girl! Didn't she kick some serious, doing her own stunts? That was some kinda beautiful fight scene! She's psychic, that's why she was there, she can smell it when her people are in Dutch, or about to be.

#16 re: the memory that cures River...I thought Carmencita had some very good things to say about this. I think the viral/reavers horror story was a big knot of ugly jamming her synapses; she didn't have room to be a normal human until she could get this nightmare out into the light. I doubt she'd be totally "cured", but she would at least gain a little space to work on other things. I thought having her barf was a nice touch. I also loved it when she gave Simon her patented 'are you nuts' look when he asked her 'are you Miranda' (sorry, not an exact quote, don't have the book, or the DVD yet).

#20 re: how can the crew be whole without Wash & Book...if there's more, Joss will create another configuration of fabulous characters that we'll love (and the other characters will love), just as much in different ways. I-Ching! Gestalt-heit!

#21 re: no reaction shot from the crew to Wash's death...I think it would have reduced the tension, and made for cheesy closure, and it seemed like Joss was all about the tension around Wash's death (crap! he -staked- Wash, a fate reserved for vampires and other unredeemables!). Plus, there was the funeral, which I thought was more than enough, except I liked Zoe's gorgeous dress and I wondered if she had worn it before on some happier occasion.

Thanks Browncoatish for some really fine musings on the subject of the Operative and samurai culture, and on Wash's death.

Thanks Dug for an interesting take on reaver motivations









NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 9:42 PM

GIANTEVILHEAD


Quote:

Originally posted by GreyRaven37:
Nobody has mentioned it(probably because its not really a plot hole), but what do you all make of Mal getting impaled on the Operative's sword and being able to continue fighting (and living)?


He's just one tough SOB, he managed to fixed the ship in "Out of Gas" with a gunshot wound while suffocating and freezing to death.

"I swallowed a bug." -River Tam

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, October 5, 2005 1:13 AM

TOMMYGUN


Quote:

Originally posted by mima:
9. i was referring to the fact that she doesn't question mal like that. but someone pointed out how she waited until they were alone, which i liked.


Okay, yeah. Same answer as I gave above--it was simply explaining to the non-browncoats, even if it was out-of-character. You'd think there would have been a better way of doing it, though.

Quote:


22. there's clearly scenes where the original bow and arrow aren't cgi'd to match the close up scenes of her compound crossbow.


Yep, I just saw it again last night and really looked. I had already noticed that in some screenshots vs. trailer, but now I saw that it's actually in the movie. The far-away shots show the standard bow, as you said.

Quote:


a new one: how did untechnical mal know how to upload the file (not just play it, but upload it to play all) at MU's backup machine. someone told me he took av club in high school. :P loved it.


That bothered me, too. "Hit a bunch of keys and it'll magically broadcast to everyone!" Right. Oh well.

Watching it again I paid closer attention to things, and right after Miranda, while on the ship before they go to see M.U.:

Simon: "Do we have a plan?"
Mal: "Mr. Universe. We haven't the equipment to broadwave this code, but he can put it on every screen for thirty worlds. He's pretty damn close, too."

(copied from the novel, but I think it's word-for-word from the movie) So that confirms what others have said about why they didn't transmit it to M.U. You'd think it would have been way easier to just get the holo-player from Miranda and use that...*shrug* In any case, as said above, the fact that M.U. didn't suggest this to them may have non-verbally told the crew that the Alliance was there, and it was a trap. So transmitting it wouldn't have done any good. Thus, they knew they *had* to physically go there and do it themselves, etc. etc. This also explains why Mal got the Reavers to follow--he wasn't *guessing* it was a trap, he knew it.

Okay, so the BIG reason I came back to post was about the Wash death angle-of-Serenity question. First viewing I thought it was slanted as well, so this time I looked closely. They crash land and slide sort of diagonally...at the very end they fall into that "hole" at the end of the hanger, and the ship SPINS. At its final resting place, it's in the hole (so not close to the ceiling at all), and it's facing DIRECTLY "BACKWARDS." So that's not a plot hole at all, the Reavers could easily shoot through the cockpit.



"Well...here I am...."

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, October 5, 2005 4:16 AM

DONCOAT


Quote:

Originally posted by mima:
Quote:

Originally posted by DrRob:
Minor annoyances:

1. River goes back outside to get the med kit, close the door and save the day. And YET: no one uses the med kit.



the med kit is outside, with the reavers. the doors were rigged to lock by kaylee.


Actually, no. River tosses it through the opening just before she closes the doors.

I'm going to speculate that not very much time has elapsed from that point until the doors open again. River took out the Reavers in just a few seconds. It seems longer to us because we cut away to the simultaneous action between Mal and the O.

Thus there really hasn't been enough time for anybody to get over the shock of River's charge and get to work with the medical bag.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, October 5, 2005 5:12 AM

GORRAMINDEPENDENT


I imagine that since it was on the edge of Reaver infested space, the Operative would've wanted all of the back-up he could call up "just in case." The thing I didn't get is why Mr. Universe has his planet so close to that dust cloud that borders on Reaver-infested space!

”Well, Jayne ain’t a girl. If she starts in on that girl’s name thing, I’ll show her good and all I got man parts.”

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, October 5, 2005 6:14 AM

DRROB


Ok shoot me I didn't stay for the last minute or two of credits so I didn't hear the song.

Re: the med bag--here's a chance to show Jayne/Zoe/Ilana working together to save Simon and Kaylee... instead at the end it all wraps up and Mr. Bad guy has everyone patched up.

Hmmmm.

Still, nothing bothered me so much as having Jayne go to kill/space/etc. River. It sort of makes sense if you haven't SEEN the tv show but if you have, that's not something Jayne would do ie "I can kill you with my brain."

Jayne drunk? It takes more than a couple swigs off a sake' bottle to make Jayne forget what a threat River is.



"Guess you broke into the wrong rec room."

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

YOUR OPTIONS

NEW POSTS TODAY

USERPOST DATE

OTHER TOPICS

DISCUSSIONS
76th Independent Battalion Part 48
Sat, December 7, 2019 10:48 - 1930 posts
Death of a legend
Wed, December 4, 2019 23:08 - 6 posts
Anyone gotten to the end of season 3 of The Expanse?
Wed, December 4, 2019 12:40 - 13 posts
The Mandalorian
Tue, November 26, 2019 22:54 - 2 posts
What chu talkin' 'bout, Nathan? A fan film? Oh, ok. Lets hope it goes somewhere...
Tue, November 19, 2019 10:45 - 11 posts
Christina in Tin Star? also Lethal Weapon discussion because I like threadjacking my own threads
Mon, November 18, 2019 04:05 - 12 posts
Patton's wife
Mon, November 18, 2019 03:38 - 18 posts
The NEW newb Welcome Mat thread...
Mon, November 18, 2019 03:27 - 167 posts
O.M.G. These guys! Take a listen. lol.
Mon, November 18, 2019 03:23 - 9 posts
Random roles; AV Club interview with Morena
Mon, November 18, 2019 03:22 - 7 posts
Seamus Kennedys Tribute to the Armed Forces, Cheers!
Mon, November 11, 2019 22:11 - 1 posts
Wash is gonna be on the Rookie next week with our Captain.
Sun, November 10, 2019 23:18 - 1 posts

FFF.NET SOCIAL