REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

The Netherlands and Van Gogh's Death

POSTED BY: CONNORFLYNN
UPDATED: Monday, December 5, 2022 10:08
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Wednesday, November 10, 2004 6:10 AM

CONNORFLYNN


Hmmm.. This is how the Netherlands reacts to 1 death. Makes you wonder how they would react if 3000+ Dutch were killed?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3998347.stm


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Wednesday, November 10, 2004 6:48 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


But...But...the Dutch are peace-loving Europeans. They don't react like us violent, savage Americans. This must be a mistake.

What's next? European soldiers on a supposed "peacekeeping" mission in some African country destroying the air force of the legally constituted government and gunning down civilians in the street? Nah. Never happen. Not Europeans.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, November 10, 2004 6:58 AM

CONNORFLYNN


Comeon now.. Those rebels interrupted Tea time.

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Wednesday, November 10, 2004 7:19 AM

DAIKATH


I am dutch. It wasn't exactly the death of that one guy which sparked this all, it is the aculmination of all the social changes and perceptions within the last 4 years wich began after September the 11th. Besides all that this murder really made us feel hurt in our freedom of speech. Everyone who speaks against the extremistic muslims in my country now has to go in hiding. We used to see our Prime Minister and another Minister go to work on a bike! Now this....


Besides, that raid was against terrorists. There are also much more Muslims in my country (percentage wise) then in the US, so extreme right groups now get fueled much more hate because of recent events and their discomfort at the site of Mosques everywhere. (you can even graduate in highschool on the languages Turks and Arabic).

My country btw supported the war in Iraq politically (like we could support it millitarily...) and we have troops based in Al Mutanna.

And my country is a coffee country!

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Wednesday, November 10, 2004 1:11 PM

CONNORFLYNN


Amen to coffee:)

The Tea Time reference is to France:)

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Saturday, November 13, 2004 1:31 AM

DAIKATH


Also some fun facts.

The last murder for someone's basic democratic freedoms we had was Pim Fortuyn. He had a decent shot of becoming Prime Minister but then was killed days before the election (his party became the second largest (we have like 8)).

Pim Fortuyn was killed on May 6th, on May 5th we were liberated from the Nazis(and on May 5th Serenity will premiere here but thats another story).

There are 911 days between the murder of Pim Fortuyn and Theo van Gogh

Theo van Gogh was murdered on the second of November. We write it down differently but if you wrote it down on the american way the date would say 112, the dutch emerency phonenumber for police, firemen, ambulances.

Some coincidences which would make one wonder :).

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Saturday, November 20, 2004 1:50 AM

DAIKATH


Quote:

Originally posted by Connorflynn:
Hmmm.. This is how the Netherlands reacts to 1 death. Makes you wonder how they would react if 3000+ Dutch were killed?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3998347.stm




Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
But...But...the Dutch are peace-loving Europeans. They don't react like us violent, savage Americans. This must be a mistake.



At first I didn't think much of this, but now I have thought about it I must say that I am a tad offended to be honest.

The US never had any attacks on its home soil since the civil war (or at least not in a century) whilst there were two major world wars on european soil.

For example my father when he hears the testing of airsirens (or once when I was playing a videogame with certain sounds) is always remembered of a bombing on his home town when he was little. At the first run it didn't cause too many damage, but then they went back to help poeple and they went over it again. 200 poeple dead. They were not even german bombers but allied planes making a navigational mistake.

I can tell more stories about my family during that war. The reason I tell this is because after September 11th most Americans think they are the only ones who know what its like to be attacked and hurt. Whilst europeans might be more pacifistic because we might know the conaequences of war better.

I dont know if the war in Iraq was the good thing or not, but that attitude is somewhat offensive to me if Im being honest.

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Monday, November 22, 2004 3:34 AM

CONNORFLYNN


Actually, we've had a couple of attacks since the civil war..Pearl Harbor being one of the more famous ones. I believe it was one of the main reasons we jumped on board for WWII. Then there were the Trade Center attacks in the 90's on old Billary's watch.


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Tuesday, November 23, 2004 10:27 AM

DAIKATH


Pearl Harbor was in Hawaii, it is US soil but still not really close to the north american continent and the first WTC attack was there. But it didnt really effect the national mood.

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Tuesday, November 23, 2004 10:45 AM

CONNORFLYNN


Quote:

Originally posted by Daikath:
Quote:

Originally posted by Connorflynn:
Hmmm.. This is how the Netherlands reacts to 1 death. Makes you wonder how they would react if 3000+ Dutch were killed?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3998347.stm




Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
But...But...the Dutch are peace-loving Europeans. They don't react like us violent, savage Americans. This must be a mistake.



At first I didn't think much of this, but now I have thought about it I must say that I am a tad offended to be honest.

The US never had any attacks on its home soil since the civil war (or at least not in a century) whilst there were two major world wars on european soil.

For example my father when he hears the testing of airsirens (or once when I was playing a videogame with certain sounds) is always remembered of a bombing on his home town when he was little. At the first run it didn't cause too many damage, but then they went back to help poeple and they went over it again. 200 poeple dead. They were not even german bombers but allied planes making a navigational mistake.

I can tell more stories about my family during that war. The reason I tell this is because after September 11th most Americans think they are the only ones who know what its like to be attacked and hurt. Whilst europeans might be more pacifistic because we might know the conaequences of war better.

I dont know if the war in Iraq was the good thing or not, but that attitude is somewhat offensive to me if Im being honest.



I guess my point made previously is that attacks on our own soil have occurred. WWI and WWII affected the US nationally, because we lost tens of thousands of troops. Their deaths weren't insignificant nor were their experiences. Our troops were on European soil , experiencing the same situations that your relatives did. Letters were written home and many understood the consequences.

What I find maddening is that the US was labeled as "Over-reacting" to the 9/11 attacks. I wasn't attempting to specifically target the Netherlands, but I think it as a whole is a good example of the biased attitude of Europeans. 1 death of a movie maker initiated conflict in the Netherlands. My original question was "I wonder what would happen if 3000 deaths occurred over there?"

I'm still not exactly sure where you are coming from though with your last post. Forgive me if I'm misinterpretting your post.

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Friday, December 3, 2004 8:11 AM

DAIKATH


My main computer has its annual cripling virus again so I didnt really feel like replying sooner. Good thing we have email notification.

Like I said before, this isn't really about that one death. Two representitives of the poeple in our parlament now are not able to work as they normally would (Geert Wilders and Ayan Hirshi Ali, to my knowledge they have not gone back to work since the event), it is my impression that even with the 3000+ deaths in the Pentagon and WTC this has not happened in the US.

There were attacked on the US before, but Pearl Harbor didnt happen anywhere near the North American continent so poeple there still felt relativly save. Plus the nation recovered from the first WTC bombing and nobody really expected it again.

Yes, lots of US soldiers heroically lost their lifes fighting for a worthy cause on european soil and I am very grateful for their sacrifice (Canada actually liberated my country, but without the US troops in other territories Canada would not have been able to liberate mine). But it is still different to read letters of your loved ones about the horrors and experiencing them for yourself.

I am not trying to diminish the effect of WWII on the US national mood and habits, they are definatly there. But they were there without them themselfes at home feeling danger or vunerable.

For example I myself know about the things in my family, but I dont truly know their sacrifices and fear during that time. I have seen pictures of mass graves with so many bodys you can't make out a single body part, however I have not seen them for real so I still sleep fine at night.

It effects national mood more when everyone feels the shame of working with the nazis, failing to save a couple of jews in your home and all the other pains and losses involving you directly. WWII definatly has effected the US and am happy to see them police the world, but it still isn't the same thing from experiencing those things yourself.

I didn't go into detail here, but I still do not know if the war in Iraq was the right thing to do or not. The execution was wrong, but that doesn't change the moral decision that needed to be made before it. However what offended me was that europeans are portrayed here as hypocrites while we might in general be more pacifistic because we know the consequences of war better, a couple attacks dont make a war.

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Friday, December 3, 2004 8:50 AM

MANIACNUMBERONE


connorflyn wrote - "What I find maddening is that the US was labeled as "Over-reacting" to the 9/11 attacks."

I'm afraid I've got to agree with daikath on this one. The US did indeed react poorly to 9/11, connorflyn. Let's not mistake over-reacting with reacting poorly. It's perfectly reasonable for people to be angry and go to war when they're attacked. Like Mal said to Saffron, Somebody tries to kill you, you kill 'em right back. But shouldn't that attack have a focus that makes sense? Shouldn't the US have gone into afghanistan or saudi arabia or egypt in response?

Anyway, I looked for the bias in Europeans that you said you saw, but I couldn't find it. Please explain further. How is it a bias when someone reacts to killing negatively? Do you expect nederlanders to be happy when someone dies? Do you expect them to be happy if 3,000 people die?

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Friday, December 3, 2004 10:40 AM

CONNORFLYNN


Quote:

Originally posted by ManiacNumberOne:
connorflyn wrote - "What I find maddening is that the US was labeled as "Over-reacting" to the 9/11 attacks."

I'm afraid I've got to agree with daikath on this one. The US did indeed react poorly to 9/11, connorflyn. Let's not mistake over-reacting with reacting poorly. It's perfectly reasonable for people to be angry and go to war when they're attacked. Like Mal said to Saffron, Somebody tries to kill you, you kill 'em right back. But shouldn't that attack have a focus that makes sense? Shouldn't the US have gone into afghanistan or saudi arabia or egypt in response?

Anyway, I looked for the bias in Europeans that you said you saw, but I couldn't find it. Please explain further. How is it a bias when someone reacts to killing negatively? Do you expect nederlanders to be happy when someone dies? Do you expect them to be happy if 3,000 people die?



I think you misunderstood my post. Iraq in my opinion doesn't play a part in the 9/11 response. I have visited numerous boards over the last few years where European folks felt we over reacted to 9/11 when we went into Afghanistan and many Americans reactions to Islam in general after the 3000 deaths. That was what my comment was in regards to and the hypocrisy of it all. Here we had one death and it initiataed conflict.

As for Iraq, well.. personally the more I research and the more I get down to the nitty gritty of it all (the devil really is in the details), the Bush administration made a huge miscalculation in underestimating the intelligence of the average Joe in the US and perhaps the world. Iraq was always a target (right or wrong), they just had to figure out a way to sell it to the world and the US population. Unfortunately, instead of using the truth as a motivator, they created a pretty substantial fabrication of evidence to try and sell the war, while those of us were still reeling from the aftershock of 9/11. I have to admit I fell for it originally. As time goes on though..it becomes more and more evident. Personally, I understand the world's opinion of Bush and his administration in regards to Iraq.

I do think the world and Iraqis are safer without Saddam in power, but there were other ways to get folks on board, rather then through lies. Now we can only hope that the world decides to offer aid to clean up the mess. Not so much to help America (though it would be nice for a change to have someone offering us aid), but to help Iraq get re-established in the world and renew peace in the region if possible.

We've already started forming groups to protest any military action against Iran, where I live. It's time to put the brakes on, and review our priorities and foreign policy.

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Saturday, December 4, 2004 9:19 AM

DAIKATH


It had one death wich made one feel vunerable if we said what we wanted. Like I said two poeple are not able to do their normal jobs as representatives of the poeple and have recieved death threats.

That is something different then it just being one death, one death of a public figure everone expected to live for another 20 years or so gone in an instant because of what he said. This would of course make everyone feel mortal and coupled with the fact that if you go out in public like him you can recieve similair death threats..

Thát initiated the conflict, not just one death.



Im sorry to drag this along, but I just wanted to make that clear.

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Monday, December 5, 2022 10:08 AM

JAYNEZTOWN

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