REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

The war on Iraq has made moral cowards of us all

POSTED BY: GHOULMAN
UPDATED: Saturday, April 29, 2023 14:51
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Thursday, December 2, 2004 7:45 AM

GHOULMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Hey, Ghoulman, what's going on over there? When did this happen? I've tried a lot of BBS's and I keep coming back to li'l old FFF 'cause the vast majority of people who post here, post regularly and respectfully. I can't find that anywhere else. The right-leaning posters here are by far the most articulate and consistently engaging right-leaning people I have ever encountered. What I like about you Ghoulman is that you don't argue your points. You don't get caught up in minutia. You keep your eye on the big picture. You simply state what you know to be true and stick to it.

There's an ill wind of relativism out there today. The fascist spirit wants everyone to believe that there is no way of knowing the truth, that all communication is propaganda. If that spirit were to prevail, then history would be irrelevant and George Orwell's prophecy would come true. Ghoulman, don't let the bastards grind you down. And don't take too much of the irrelevant flack you get here seriously.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.


Oh thanx HK, you are the best.

I try to read all your posts!

But I do have a job (my boss has gotten a little annoyed at the sound of me typing at 60 words a minute).

It's funny you call the "right wing" posters here respectful and yea, they can be polite (except for JasonZZZ... I think he has Tourettes Syndrome)... but they have a fundementalist zealotry that surpasses mere jingoism that only Islamic Terrorists could possibly feel comfortable with. What you may see as being polite with an opinion I see as clear immorality and, frankly, clever trolling.

They still insist Iraq had WMDs and harboured/dealed with Terrorists for Goddess sake!

I always win that arguement because I do just as you mention above... " ...don't argue your points. You don't get caught up in minutia. You keep your eye on the big picture. You simply state what you know to be true and stick to it."

But what do you do when your proven right (over and over... have I ever been wrong?) but they refuse to listen to reason? I keep posting facts that prove them wrong over and over and they just dig themselves deeper into thier little trenches.

How can you argue against such immovable bigotry? What they see as a legitimate opinion is hypocracy and racism. That is, the entire world knows the Iraq Invasion is a war crime. Any rationalization for it must be bigoted, hypocritical, and a pack of lies by it's very nature.

Doesn't take a scholar to figure that one out but I'm sure some troll will try to argue it.

Worse, the US media is evil (corporate takeover - complete). Watching Tucker Carlson attack Canadians on CNN showed clearly that the tactics you see on this BBS, attack the person, distract from the issues/facts, is the state of polemic discourse in America. In other countries such crap isn't allowed on playgrounds let alone TV. The USA is stuck at Iraq mentally and physically - they can't accept they are the "bad guys" so they must deny it as much as they can. Such national delusions aren't unknown, as I'm sure you understand.

How can you argue against fascism when the fascists run the media? Frell man, the right wingers insist the media is liberal and constantly attack the media as "anti-American". Right now the media is paralized in fear, a fear the US government pounds journalists with everyday (as the corproations who own the media do too, they don't want to see anti-Bush stories). This is America? It's fascist America. But you will not see those stories posted here unless I/you post 'em.

I'll be around but not as much.

I encourage you to stick to Iraq in your arguements. There is no way you can get people who are the living embodyment of Dennis Learys' "I'm and Asshole" song to change thier meat-murdering, child raping, God burning, Bush sucking, tiny, little, mushy, brains, simply because they are fundentalists as bad as Usama bin Laden ever was.

Cheers and By-by Ms. American Pie.

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Thursday, December 2, 2004 7:55 AM

GHOULMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Taken from the Lancet study:

Two-thirds of all violent deaths were reported in ... Falluja. If we exclude the Falluja data, the risk of death is 1•5-fold (1•1–2•3) higher after the invasion. We estimate that 98 000 more deaths than expected (8000–194 000) happened after the invasion outside of Falluja and far more if the outlier Falluja cluster is included.

Violent deaths were widespread, reported in 15 of 33 clusters, and were mainly attributed to coalition forces. Most individuals reportedly killed by coalition forces were women and children (and one old man, for a total of 54% non-combatant deaths - SEE BELOW Rue).

In the absence of any surveys, however, they have relied on Ministry of Health records. ... but because only a third of all deaths happen in hospitals, these data might not accurately represent trends. No surveys or census-based estimates of crude mortality have been undertaken in Iraq in more than a decade ...

When deaths occurred, the date, cause, and circumstances of violent deaths were recorded. When violent deaths were attributed to a faction in the conflict or to criminal forces, no further investigation into the death was made to respect the privacy of the family and for the safety of the interviewers.

Many of the Iraqis reportedly killed by US forces could have been combatants. * 28 of 61 killings (46%) attributed to US forces involved men age 15–60 years, 28 (46%) were children younger than 15 years, four (7%) were
women, and one was an elderly man. (54% were clearly non-combatants Rue) It is not clear if the greater number of male deaths was attributable to legitimate targeting ... or if this was because men are more often in public... For example, seven of 12 (58%) vehicle accident related fatalities involved men between 15 and 60 years of age.

* For this to be true, you have to accept the US concept that ANY male between 15 and 60, armed or not, IS a combatant.


Thanx RUE you are the best! Oh wait, HK might get jealous.

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Thursday, December 2, 2004 8:08 AM

GHOULMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Ghoul.

You can quote the Lancet study if you want. I have no problem with that. It is one of many estimates of casualties. The problem I have is when people categorize it as "100,000 civilians" or "100,000 women and children". As IBC's article states:
Quote:

(despite the Lancet website's front-page headline "100,000 excess civilian deaths after Iraq invasion", the authors clearly state that "many" of the dead in their sample may have been combatants [P.7]).


I just don't want you to be accused of 'spinning' the truth.


Geezer... you've asked me three times to find this link for you when, apparently, you have all the time in the world to do so yourself. Then, you refuse to accept the results of the only "on the ground" non-partizan casualty report to exist ... period.

Tell you what, in the future I won't bother.

There simply isn't a more accurate source for this information on the planet. And don't try to mess with the math as you attempted to do in another thread. I think I'll take the math from some of the worlds leading scientists over yours... thanks for playing.

Oh, and it isn't spin that shows the dead were mostly women and children, it's two different basic facts:

1. Most people killed in war are women and children. Always. That's one of the reasons war is bad.

2. When the US attacked there was no army to meet it, was there? So Geezer... who else could have died under the daily, constant, bombing?

Bombing that continues to this day.

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Thursday, December 2, 2004 8:26 AM

GHOULMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Daikath:
This does have something to do with the thread but not necisarily(sp?) with the immediate discussion.

It can't be denied that the media is bias, CNN only came out with the slitghest report of civilian casualties once the war was 'over'. This might not sound as too dramatic but just look at it and you can see the selfcensorship.

However my main point here is something else.

I do think it's possible that a 100,000 poeple were killed during and after the invasion of Iraq. But if Saddam and his sons and whomever after that was allowed to rule would (with about 95% certainty) have killed just as much poeple.

We all know the story of the young boy who's house got hit by a stray bomb and lost his limbs and family in the process. But then again if you look on the internet you can find videoclips of Saddams 'traitors' being executed by having explosives detonate in their anus.

My point is that if we didnt go into Iraq we would have allowed a whole lot of suffering and now we went into Iraq we caused a whole lot of suffering.

I hope I will never be in a position wherein I have to choose between either, but in the meantime I hope to see the true picture and pray for forgiveness if my inaction has caused suffering along the way.



May I blather a bit?

I think you've some good points but I think you're wrong about Saddam and what he is, how he operates, and what he means to the US.

I know this is what you have been taught; Saddam would have slaughtered thousands in a Nazi like tyranny...

... but it isn't true. Saddam ruled by fear, he only killed a few to punish. The Kurds he gassed (thank you D. Rumsfeld for the Sarin gas!) in 1985 was the only time he gassed civilians. There are a few other Iran/Iraq gas stories but it's difficult to separate military tactics from Saddam ordered murder. Since th eUS provided Saddam with illegal WMDs for that war it's hard to understand all the facts simply because US policy is to censor such information.

For example, how many people died in Iraq during the 90s? Certainly not the number the US media, and yourself, imply. Saddam didn't go around slaughtering people in the thousands.

BTW, the USA didn't invade Iraq because Saddam was killing people, so it's irrelevant to any arguement purporting the USA is justified in occupying Iraq let alone bombing 100,000 to death.

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Thursday, December 2, 2004 10:01 AM

DAIKATH


I do think Saddam is capable of doing it, and if no him then his sons certainly. Who will rape women on the street and if they or their men even make the slightest remark they would get killed.

If they would rule beside fear they would give themselfes the liberty to be really cruel too since they could.

My personal gues is that you see imperfections an other wrong issues in your nations attitude wich are there, but that doesnt make the other end of the spectrum right either. Of course I could be wrong, but I really suspect this being the case.

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Thursday, December 2, 2004 3:50 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


It amazed me how EASILY people were distracted from Afghanistan to Iraq after all the Prez-dent's hot air about bin 'Dead or Alive!' Laden. And as with the Afghanistan segue into Iraq (people led like sheep to the belief Afghanistan was 'over'), Iraq is being segued into Iran.

Why do the Iraq elections HAVE to take place so quickly? So the US can be told it is 'done' with Iraq, and be made to accept a new target. IMHO

Geezer, I would actually like to reply to your comments about the Lancet article. The problem with your post is that it takes selected phrases out of context. But the only way to respond is at length and in detail. I have not had the time, and probably will not in the next few months. So I will simply second Ghoulman's excellent summary: they are the experts, and their opinion and analysis is, in fact, much more credible than yours.

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Saturday, April 29, 2023 2:51 PM

JAYNEZTOWN


First a country made, people flee Europe arrive in a Free Untamed America where Native Americans already lived. They were subjects now and taxes, then rebeling against an Empire but old roads and old Greek franternity rituals and Freemasonry Pagan Masonic robes left behind, Royal family links, not all founding Fathers were Masons but there was some Masonry and Corruption from the Start. The Third party of the United States was an Anti-Mason party, slowly it opens up to Feminists, Catholics, Blacks, all other types slowly joining Sisterhoods and Brotherhoods a Civil War Comes and the Assassination of Abraham Lincoln, maybe the Fed was a big one “The creature from Jekyll island”....over time the militray and media machine truly changes, who knows how far the Neo-Marxist moved, Fascism, Communism all the same but they fool people get useful people, lure idiots with different stated goals but the goals one and the same?

I once considered myself somewhat Left-ish but once they started making excuses for the jihads and islamists I could never call myself Left leaning again.

Somewhere along the story they made America into the World Police Force...while other elites took the spoils of war.

Bush jnr was the start of a mess

the Middle East has never been the same

Suspected ISIS militants kill Kurdish fisherman
https://www.kurdistan24.net/en/story/31314-Suspected-ISIS-militants-ki
ll-Kurdish-fisherman


perhaps bitchute and rumble are also good places to watch documentary

a more modern untold history



video

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