REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Grammar Rocks

POSTED BY: MAUGWAI
UPDATED: Friday, October 29, 2004 15:32
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Thursday, October 28, 2004 3:18 PM

RUXTON


Grounded:

Happens.

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Thursday, October 28, 2004 5:05 PM

SHINY


Quote:

Originally posted by meleaux:
Also a local pronunciation of ASK- as AXE. "she axed me to go with her" It makes me literally cringe.



Count me in as a cringer. My cable company (Comcast) keeps running these ads where the family pronounces picture as PITCHER.

Jayne, your mouth is talkin. Might want to look into that.

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Thursday, October 28, 2004 5:17 PM

GOJIRO


Quote:

Originally posted by Ruxton:
Gojiro,

Thanks for the regional clarification on Eye-ther vs. EE-ther.

BTW, three references tell me you are wrong about "Joss's" and I was right with "Joss' "

But I have some doubts. Can you name your reference? Mine are two "collegiate" dictionaries and a style manual. The problem seems to be with three "s's" in line.


.........Ruxton



Happy to oblige! My reference is the venerable and widely used Chicago Manual of Style (CMS), page 200, section 6.24 (to be precise).

It lists examples, one of which is "Ross's land" -- which is as close as you can get. There are exceptions to this rule, notably Greek names ("Euripides' plays") and religious figures ("Jesus' disciples" or "Moses' people"). While some have elevated Joss to godlike status, I doubt the populace at large would agree, and therefore the possessive form of his name should be spelled "Joss's".

Garner's A Dictionary of Modern American Usage also agrees with CMS. See page 509 of ADMAU.

That said, almost EVERYONE gets this wrong, so what makes the "rule"? I choose to go by the book, but others believe popular usage should dictate what's right. Personally, that's smacks of anarchy to me. But that's just me.

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Thursday, October 28, 2004 7:50 PM

RUXTON


gojiro,

Thanks much. The only example I could find was in the "U.S. Gov't Printing Office Style Manual," which had "hostess' " as the only word with two final s's. Yours is the only example I've seen with two at the end of someone's name.

Unfortunately, style books tend to follow common usage, and thereby screw up the formalities of language along the way, all to the detriment of organized society and, as you suggested, plunge mightily toward anarchy. I don't like 'em.

Sadly, I have no access to your noted references. I am truly at the corner of No and Where, and all things come here by truck, when I choose to buy. But I'll keep an eye out for ADMAU.

Kwaheri

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Thursday, October 28, 2004 9:11 PM

OBSESSED


1) Capitalization
2) Run-on sentences
3) "I axed him a question." (Not unless you were interrogating him with a hatchet, you didn't.)
4) I don't mind the occasional spelling mistake on difficult words, but some of the things I see misspelled are just frightening. Genious, seperate, differant, becouse, etc.
5) The misuse of the word "literally" just irritates the hell out of me. "Firefly was so good, I was literally blown away." If you write this, you should either way less than 1/2 a pound, play with explosives, have trigger-happy friends, or have watched firefly in a hurricane. Otherwise, you were not "literally" blown away. (Although maybe you should be.....)
6) OK, this last one is a little different. Does anybody have a definitive spelling for goram, gorram, gorramn, gorran, whatever the hell it is? I keep seeing different spellings, and there must be someone out there with scripts to look at. If anyone knows, please post (with good grammar.)


Book: I'd forgotten - you're moonlighting as a criminal mastermind now.
Simon: No, but I'm thinking about growing a big black mustache. I'm a traditionalist.

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Thursday, October 28, 2004 9:37 PM

BARNEYT


Quote:

Originally posted by obsessed:
...4) I don't mind the occasional spelling mistake on difficult words, but some of the things I see misspelled are just frightening. Genious, seperate, differant, becouse, etc.




I'm the same on spelling mistakes, although anyone who misspells 'separate' gets my sympathy because it's one of those words that I have never been able to spell correctly without stopping and carefully going over it in my mind...


Has anyone ever noticed that, if you're stuck with the spelling of a word, the more you look at it the more wrong it looks, even if you do have the correct spelling... It really doesn't help!


---
"I think the right place to start is to say, fair is fair. This is who we are. These are our numbers." Mr Willis of Ohio - The West Wing

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Thursday, October 28, 2004 11:06 PM

OBSESSED


OK, I forgot, one thing. Is there someone, who can guess, what it is, or, do I have to, spell it out?

Book: I'd forgotten - you're moonlighting as a criminal mastermind now.
Simon: No, but I'm thinking about growing a big black mustache. I'm a traditionalist.

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Thursday, October 28, 2004 11:57 PM

GROUNDED


Could it, have something, to do with, misuse of, a particular, item of, punctuation?

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Friday, October 29, 2004 12:39 AM

BARNEYT


Quote:

Originally posted by Grounded:
Could it, have something, to do with, misuse of, a particular, item of, punctuation?



Guily as charged on this one!

I've been on my best behaviour while writing posts to this thread, but I do have a tendency to write entire e-mails (and large tracts of essays until someone proof reads them for me!) without the end of a sentence in sight!


Although to be fair (to me), it's not so much that I misuse commas, just that I overuse them...


---
"I think the right place to start is to say, fair is fair. This is who we are. These are our numbers." Mr Willis of Ohio - The West Wing

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Friday, October 29, 2004 4:07 AM

MELEAUX


Oh, I thought of another one. "impacted". To say I was impacted by the t.v. show FF. To be impacted means you were going at a great speed and were impacted into that brick wall. The t.v. show may have had an impact on you but you were not impacted by it. Teeth can be impacted, and I'm told bowels can be impacted....ew.

She understands, she doesn't comprehend

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Friday, October 29, 2004 4:32 AM

GOJIRO


Ruxton, if you can get only one book on English usage, get the Chicago Manual of Style. It's the standard reference for the publishing industry, and most other style guides borrow from it. Only American newspapers go by a different set of rules, and those are set forth in the AP Style Guide.

ADMAU is a fantastic second reference, and I highly recommend it, but if you only can get one, CMS is the more complete of the two.

-------
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Friday, October 29, 2004 4:37 AM

UNCHARTEDOUTLAW


Someone could be impacted by a show if they were sitting under a poorly-mounted TV.

Anyway...here it is, the last school day before Halloween and everyone in the English department has chosen to dress as different literary terms. I (dressed as a lumberjack) am a tall tale. ;)

-Taylor

The Uncharted Outlaw!
"I brought you some supper, but if you'd prefer a lecture, I've a few very catchy ones prepped...sin and hellfire... one has lepers."
See my Firefly Store: http://www.cafepress.com/NorCalRiviera

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Friday, October 29, 2004 4:54 AM

RHYMEPHILE


Those apostrophes at the end of "s" or "ss" or even "z" words bug me. Why? Because as it was mentioned, there are different rules for them. I recall the big to-do when "Bridget Jones's Diary" came out and everyone was complaining that the apostrophes were used incorrectly in the film's title. Perhaps I'm a traditionalist, because I prefer just the single apostrophe rather than the "s's". I think it simply looks better.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"My office! Burgled! Plundered! Purloined! Ha ha ha...loins."

-- Phil Sebben, Harvey Birdman: Attorney at Law

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Friday, October 29, 2004 5:06 AM

GOJIRO


Actually, the traditional way of punctuating sibilants is the manner set forth in CMS, which is why Bridget Jones's Diary was correctly punctuated.

You would be a revolutionary for favoring the alternate way, I guess -- not a traditionalist.

It actually makes sense, though, when you examine the rules. "Joss's" means "belonging to Joss." The hanging apostrophe indicates joint ownership, e.g. "The deputies' guns where still in their holsters."

The only thing that doesn't make sense to me is why they make exceptions for Jesus, Moses, and Greek names. That just muddies the waters, and leads to discussions such as this one.

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Friday, October 29, 2004 7:40 AM

ANKHAGOGO


Quote:

Originally posted by Shiny:
Quote:

Originally posted by meleaux:
Also a local pronunciation of ASK- as AXE. "she axed me to go with her" It makes me literally cringe.


Count me in as a cringer. My cable company (Comcast) keeps running these ads where the family pronounces picture as PITCHER.



Oh,how I HATE that "axe" thing!!
Here's a few that makes me just freak out -
"ret" instead of "red". There is no T in the word red!!
"cent", as in "I have fifeteen cent".
Sorry, I'm not as touchy about "pitcher", mainly because that's a very common pronunciation of the word "picture" around here, so it really doesn't even register when I hear it.

There is also this habit people having of using one word when they mean another, apparently thinking the two are synonyms.
And heck,even the freakin' thesaruses are really bad about this.
I looked up "respect" (as a verb), and among other things,it had "revere"and "admire" listed.
Ok, "respect" and "revere" are NOT the same thing AT ALL.
"Respect" and "admire" aren't the same thing, either!You don't even have to respect someone to admire them, so how can they be the same?

Makes. Me. Crazy.

There's some crap puncutation for ya.

Audie Murphy could have had Sylvester Stallone for breakfast.

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Friday, October 29, 2004 9:30 AM

ANKHAGOGO


Yeah, and I just realized most of my gripes are semantic, and not grammatic. Perhaps I should start a semantic thread.

Audie Murphy could have had Sylvester Stallone for breakfast.

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Friday, October 29, 2004 9:43 AM

MANIACNUMBERONE


Sorry for my slow reply, Ruxton. Regarding your malformed sentence...

"I had an argument with a fellow (male) editor some years back, concerning the use of the term "late.""

Should prolly be...

Some years back, I had an argument with a fellow (male) editor concerning the use of the term "late."

I didn't want to make you mad or nuthin.
I just thought it was funny.

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Friday, October 29, 2004 10:38 AM

ASTRIANA


The Gregg Reference Manual, Ninth Edition (Page 168, Sections 630-631) has the following to say about the use of apostrophes showing possession for words ending in "s" or the "s" sound.

Quote:

630
a.
To form the possessive of a singular noun not ending in an s sound, add an apostrophe plus s.
my lawyer's advice
a child's game
Gloria's career
Mr. and Mrs. Goodwin's party
Alzheimer's disease
Down's syndrome

b. When a singular noun ends in a silent s, add an apostrophe plus s.
Illinois's highways
Arkansas's mountains
the corps's leadership
Des Moines's mayor

631 To form the possessive of a singular noun that ends in an s sound, be guided by the way you pronounce the word.

a. If a new syllable is formed in the pronunciation of the possessive, add an apostrophe plus s.
your boss's approval
the witness's reply
Congress's attention
Dallas's business district
Mr. and Mrs. Morris's plane tickets
Phoenix's suburbs
Ms. Lopez's application
Mr. Marsh's office
my coach's training regimen

b. If the addition of an extra syllable would make a word ending in an s hard to pronounce, add the apostrophe only.
Mrs. Phillips' request
Mr. Hastings' proposal
the Burroughs' condominium
Los Angeles' freeways
New Orleans' restaurants
Jesus' parables
Moses' flight from Egypt
for goodness' sake (see Section 646)
Achilles' heel
But: Achilles tendon

Note: Individual differences in pronunciation will affect the way some of these possessives are written. For example, if you pronounce the possessive form of Perkins as two syllables, you will write Mr. Perkins' kindness; if you pronounce the possessive of Perkins as three syllables, you will write Mr. Perkins's kindness. The important thing is to listen to your own pronunciation. When you hear yourself pronounce the possessive of boss as two syllables (boss's) and the possessive of witness as three syllables (witness's), you will not be tempted to write your boss' approval or the witness' reply. Naturally, tradition should take precedence over your ear. For example, an ambassador to Great Britain is appointed to the Court of St. James's (not, as you might expect, Court of St. James).

c. When forming the possessive of any noun ending in s (for example, Mr. Hodges), always place the apostrophe at the end of the original word, never within it.
Mr. Hodges' message (Not: Mr. Hodge's message)



~Astriana~
~Mostly-Invisible Long-Winded Goddess of Inter-Board Communication and Diplomacy a/k/a El Jefe Magnifico's Mistress... of Communications and Harems~

...I'm still free,
You can't take the sky from me.

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Friday, October 29, 2004 10:54 AM

GOJIRO


This is just the kind of anarchy to which I was previously referring. According to the note at the end, these rules are arbitrary, and depend on how you pronounce the word in question. This is especially troublesome given it's a manual for typists, who may not know how the person whose notes they're typing up would pronounce it.

That's why I prefer the CMS/ADMAU ruling. It says that the extra s sound doesn't have to be pronounced when spoken, but should be there when written. So it would be written always "Mr. Perkins's house," but when pronounced would simply sound like "Mr. Perkins house."

Even so, by Gregg, it would still be spelled "Joss's."

Whoa, did I just beat that to death? With a dead horse? Sorry. I guess this falls into the classification of Dave's Pet Peeve.

I shall speak no more on this forever. Well, at least in this thread.

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Friday, October 29, 2004 11:20 AM

ASTRIANA


*Laughing out loud and spelling it!*

Yeah, you're right. By Gregg's definition, it'd still be "Joss's."

~Astriana~
~Mostly-Invisible Long-Winded Goddess of Inter-Board Communication and Diplomacy a/k/a El Jefe Magnifico's Mistress... of Communications and Harems~

...I'm still free,
You can't take the sky from me.

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Friday, October 29, 2004 12:07 PM

RUXTON


ManiacNumberOne
Thanks. Reads better.

However, that said, I think my original method is part of my style, and thereby probably acceptable. In fact, I might have left out the comma, as though I had said, "I had an argument with a fellow yesterday concerning...." "I had an argument with a fellow editor some years back concerning...." Would that clarify it?

This use (as I originally wrote it) might be important depending on what came just before, such as a discussion of arguments, resulting in my wanting to start my statement with a declaration of having had an argument, rather than setting the time period first.

I confess I tend to write sentences backward, on occasion. And with phrases in unexpected places I write them. [Now that's just wrong.] Seems to be my style.

---------------------
You other guys: Okay already. It's Joss's. I were wrong.
--------------------

What I hate, new topic, is the use of the exclamation point at the end of a long sentence!

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Friday, October 29, 2004 3:32 PM

ZENCAT


It was Grounded who said "Personally I don't use & but if you find it easier then why not?" not me. I don't use & in place of "and".

Just for the record.

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