REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Congress cuts the heck out of NASA, where's Bush on Mars ?

POSTED BY: JAYNEZTOWN
UPDATED: Sunday, August 1, 2004 22:50
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Wednesday, July 21, 2004 5:09 AM

JAYNEZTOWN


Just thought some of you folks might have an interest in the real happenings in space. US House of Representatives panel has voted to cut the money given to fund space, environment and science programmes for next year. Just $372m was provided out of the $910m Mr Bush wanted for initial preparations for manned missions to the Moon and Mars

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20040720/pl_nm/congress_bu
dget_dc_2


House of Representatives subcommittee on Tuesday backed a $92.9 billion spending bill that cuts funding for President Bush's plan to send humans to Mars and trims money for science and environmental programs. Some people have commented that this looks a little ominous and answers the question of whether or not it was an election stunt




And finally folks they did all this on the 35th Aniversary that Apollo 11 went to the Moon, and had made some fantastic discoveries this time in july 35 years ago. It seems like an insult to Aldrin, Collins and Armstrong and all those brave men who have gone before.


They approved 1/3 of the Vision? Maybe that was just the 'scrap the shuttle by 2010' part
What's going on ?



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Wednesday, July 21, 2004 5:17 AM

GWYNETHH


The Shrub (small ornamental Bush) got what he wanted and the bigger Bush didn't have - being PERCEIVED as having "the vision thing". Don't need to really do anything, just say something. End of issue for him.

Are You Asking me to Dance?

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Wednesday, July 21, 2004 5:27 AM

DRAGONFLYDIRECTOR


Our Response - REGISTER AND VOTE BUSH OUT... please!

"Observe Analyze & Respond"
Motto of the A.P.E.s
Alliance Protean Engineers


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Wednesday, July 21, 2004 5:48 AM

GHOULMAN


All the NASA funding is now off to Utah and the new outer space authority - Space Command.

Here is a little article I found about this new US Department.
http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/space_command_00042
5.html


Note: Since the Bushies have unsigned the ABM Treaty with Russia there is NO impediment to putting weapons in space.

Conclusion? The White House is positioning itself to dominate the planet militarily. I can only speculate.

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Wednesday, July 21, 2004 5:51 AM

GWYNETHH


Quote:

Originally posted by DragonFlyDirector:
Our Response - REGISTER AND VOTE BUSH OUT... please!

"Observe Analyze & Respond"
Motto of the A.P.E.s
Alliance Protean Engineers




We didn't vote him in. He was SELECTED by the Supreme Court by the critical vote of 5 to 4.

Are You Asking me to Dance?

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Wednesday, July 21, 2004 6:51 AM

OPUS




At least three seperate media organizations have recounted the votes, Bush won no matter what.

But back to the subject at hand. Bush and the Congress, as well as NASA are doing what they've always done regardless of the political parties involved.
NASA over sells projects to get funding, Congress and the administration promises money, then ends up cutting the budget. NASA then reduces the size or reported capabilities of the project and extends the time frame to build it.
In the end if the project isn't canceled, it ends up costing 5 times as much to build, 4 times as long to build it, with a third of the capabilities that were promised.
The shuttle was originally sold as a space truck, we'd be launching one every week.
The space station was going to be this enormous structure with a crew of 8 or 9 with two of the crew dedicated to station up keep. The station was redesigned smaller and the crew complement dropped to 6, then 3 , now we're down to 2.
NASA should be shut down, everyone fired, all it's buildings, records and equipment destroyed and we should start from scratch. It is a hoplessly flawed entity.
This country needs a cabinet level position for Space Operations, and it needs to decide once and for all do we really want a manned space program, make it a national referendum, have the people vote yes or no. If no, then cancel it completely, if yes give it the realistic funding the it requires.

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Saturday, July 24, 2004 6:52 PM

PEACE


Quote:

Originally posted by Opus:


At least three seperate media organizations have recounted the votes, Bush won no matter what.

But back to the subject at hand. Bush and the Congress, as well as NASA are doing what they've always done regardless of the political parties involved.
NASA over sells projects to get funding, Congress and the administration promises money, then ends up cutting the budget. NASA then reduces the size or reported capabilities of the project and extends the time frame to build it.
In the end if the project isn't canceled, it ends up costing 5 times as much to build, 4 times as long to build it, with a third of the capabilities that were promised.
The shuttle was originally sold as a space truck, we'd be launching one every week.
The space station was going to be this enormous structure with a crew of 8 or 9 with two of the crew dedicated to station up keep. The station was redesigned smaller and the crew complement dropped to 6, then 3 , now we're down to 2.
NASA should be shut down, everyone fired, all it's buildings, records and equipment destroyed and we should start from scratch. It is a hoplessly flawed entity.
This country needs a cabinet level position for Space Operations, and it needs to decide once and for all do we really want a manned space program, make it a national referendum, have the people vote yes or no. If no, then cancel it completely, if yes give it the realistic funding the it requires.



NASA has a reservoir of talented people and know-how that should not be dismantled and cast aside. Moreover, NASA is not just manned space flight-- it is also aerospace research and unmanned missions, which, right now, are the gleaming bright spots of our space efforts (two operational Mars rovers and Cassini-- hard to beat that). That aside, your point that America's space efforts, esp. manned space missions, need direction, goals, and funding, is well taken. Since the end of the moon missions manned flight at NASA has been floundering, purposeless and without a sense of direction. Part of the problem is that, as noted by others, NASA's funding has always been a political football. In that respect, I think we agree-- come up with something sensible, comprehensive and attainable with manned flight, or get off the launch pad and let somebody else have a shot.

Oh, bugger! Now I have to wait for someone to wake up!

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Saturday, July 24, 2004 8:49 PM

OPUS


Quote:

Originally posted by Peace:
NASA has a reservoir of talented people and know-how that should not be dismantled and cast aside. Moreover, NASA is not just manned space flight-- it is also aerospace research and unmanned missions, which, right now, are the gleaming bright spots of our space efforts (two operational Mars rovers and Cassini-- hard to beat that). That aside, your point that America's space efforts, esp. manned space missions, need direction, goals, and funding, is well taken. Since the end of the moon missions manned flight at NASA has been floundering, purposeless and without a sense of direction. Part of the problem is that, as noted by others, NASA's funding has always been a political football. In that respect, I think we agree-- come up with something sensible, comprehensive and attainable with manned flight, or get off the launch pad and let somebody else have a shot.

Oh, bugger! Now I have to wait for someone to wake up!



I was going a little over the top obviously, but it has been an institution that has been run horribly all most from day one.
As for bad management a good book to read is Dragonfly, it shows how poorly things are run.
The unmanned program has suffered because of the shuttle and space station sucking up the money. Also the policy of better,faster,cheaper or was it quicker, faster , cheaper...whichever, it was still a disaster.
Believe it or not I am a big supporter of space, but I've seen too much garbage over the decades and to see it continue is pitiful.
The shuttle first launched the year I graduated highschool, and despite all the technical advances in computers and such the manned space program has remained virtually at a stand still.
Twenty plus years wasted, and from the latest vote on funding, the program will just continue limping along.

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Friday, July 30, 2004 7:50 PM

ELAKEN


I don't understand how the masses do not see the need for space exploration, how essential it is to humanity. Beyond the fact that is human nature to explore, and the technological advances that come with it, we need to explore in the hopes that we find a new place to live before we destroy our planet.

Suicide is the most sincere form of self-criticism - Heinlein

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Saturday, July 31, 2004 1:52 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Y'all need to follow up the X-prize competition and what's going on with SpaceShipOne.

If the Gov can't do it, then enterprising (pun intended) folks from the civvie sector are just damned well gonna have to do it for em.

Building your own spaceship is definately a browncoat thing to do... check it out.

http://www.scaled.com/projects/tierone/

And yes, they gave him astronaut wings, they had to!
Hahahahah

Score one for the independants!

-frem
diefuxdie

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Saturday, July 31, 2004 2:07 AM

POTHER


Quote:

Originally posted by elaken:
I don't understand how the masses do not see the need for space exploration, how essential it is to humanity. Beyond the fact that is human nature to explore, and the technological advances that come with it, we need to explore in the hopes that we find a new place to live before we destroy our planet.

Suicide is the most sincere form of self-criticism - Heinlein



Maslow's heirarchy of needs, with Alderfer's modifications...
...most of the "masses" are no where situated in life to care about such things or to explore beyond what they need for survival.

You're making me realize how high and mighty all of us are sitting in front of our computers. Perhaps we need to do a little less of this Internet thing and start doing a little more with the people whom we live with in our communities.

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Saturday, July 31, 2004 7:28 AM

ELAKEN


I understand Maslow's hierarchy, but not all people believe each step has to be done exclusively from each other. How about I amend the masses to the voting publc. If you are at a point in the hierarchy where you can vote, then surely you can think about the future also. Most people dont' care about the future if it is far enough away that it would not affect them or their grandchildren personally. And as for being high and mighty, I am like this anyways even away from the computer and in the community. It is just a trait I picked up from being smarter then most people *grin*. And I do more enough for my community, thank you.

Suicide is the most sincere form of self-criticism - Heinlein

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Saturday, July 31, 2004 11:02 AM

OPUS


Quote:

Originally posted by elaken:
I don't understand how the masses do not see the need for space exploration, how essential it is to humanity. Beyond the fact that is human nature to explore, and the technological advances that come with it, we need to explore in the hopes that we find a new place to live before we destroy our planet.



They will never be as enthused about it until they can benefit directly from it, not the trickle down benefits that we have now.
As it stands, how do you convince someone who is barely making ends meet to give a dam about some space telescope. Or two guys on a space station studying the effects of zero-g on spiders building a web.
They really do need to start coming up with more ways to make money from it directly.

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Sunday, August 1, 2004 1:32 AM

FREMDFIRMA


>>They really do need to start coming up with more ways to make money from it directly.<<

Yeah, bring me back some asteroid chunks fulla precious metal or something...

-frem
diefuxdie

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Sunday, August 1, 2004 10:55 AM

OPUS


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
>>They really do need to start coming up with more ways to make money from it directly.<<

Yeah, bring me back some asteroid chunks fulla precious metal or something...

-frem
diefuxdie



I like the mining asteroid thing, except, to make it financially worthwhile we have to be able to get to one and back quickly and inexpensively enough to make it worthwhile. At the rate our space program is going that'll be another 300 years or so.

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Sunday, August 1, 2004 3:24 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Not so - we have a practical ion engine, and it doesn't really take much thrust, especially if it's constant, to move a smallish object.

A remote drone a bit larger than DS1/DS2 could do it easily, and think of the research possibilities ?

Bring it to the space station and then ship it down on next supply run, it's easy, but no one thinks of it.

-frem
diefuxdie

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Sunday, August 1, 2004 6:18 PM

OPUS


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Not so - we have a practical ion engine, and it doesn't really take much thrust, especially if it's constant, to move a smallish object.

A remote drone a bit larger than DS1/DS2 could do it easily, and think of the research possibilities ?

Bring it to the space station and then ship it down on next supply run, it's easy, but no one thinks of it.

-frem
diefuxdie



The problem however, is long before the drone returns, the markets are going to know you're about to flood them with ore and the bottom will fall out of the market before you even get it back to the station.
The only way that could be made to work financially is when we're able to set it up and work it like a regular mine, with a constant flow of ore, a regular business. Not a one shot deal, or just a few ships every so often.
But at the moment we can't even get to orbit without expending a great deal of time, money and effort with virtually no tangible, real time, returns for the effort.
At the rate we're progressing we won't be able to do anything like that for several hundred years.

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Sunday, August 1, 2004 10:50 PM

JAYNEZTOWN


Quote:

Originally posted by elaken:
I don't understand how the masses do not see the need for space exploration, how essential it is to humanity. Beyond the fact that is human nature to explore, and the technological advances that come with it, we need to explore in the hopes that we find a new place to live before we destroy our planet.

Suicide is the most sincere form of self-criticism - Heinlein



yes good point, the goal isn't just going to space but the many other sciences that also follow and other benefits, weather satellites, militray benefits, better aerospace designs, network communications, study of biology in space, imporved materials...cut the developing sciences and you give yourself much trouble in the future.

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