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Chemical weapons: Are we detecting a pattern yet?

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Monday, September 24, 2018 10:57
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Monday, April 16, 2018 3:52 PM

CAPTAINCRUNCH

... stay crunchy...


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
The Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons said that a team of nine inspectors arrived in Damascus on Saturday, after it was invited by Syria and Russia to investigate the apparent chemical attack just over a week ago on on Douma, a suburb of Damascus that has been held by rebels.



So Douma is where the Rebels are and where the chemical attack happened... It's like a puzzle with 2 pieces. Let's see if you can put them together.

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Monday, April 16, 2018 4:16 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"and where the chemical attack happened" and where no 'rebels' were reported killed. Let's not forget that.

Maybe YOU can put the facts together.




So anyway ... anyone up for a rational, fact-based, and civil discussion about the topic?

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Monday, April 16, 2018 6:15 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
"But ISIS are just as bad as the Syrian government."

Is that your defense, lol. Yeah, we're already bombing ISIS, moonbeam.

Or are you suggesting that, although the Syrian regime has carried out over two dozen other chemical attacks, it may not have carried out this one?

That's a pretty laughable position...

How Many Chemical Attacks Have Been Documented In Syria? - https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2018/04/16/how-many-chemica
l-attacks-have-been-documented-in-syria-infographic
/ While Human Rights Watch has reported 85 chemical attacks in Syria since 2013 ...
By some accounts then, 58 attacks haven't been attributed to anybody.

So, let's go over your childish notions. The Syrian government is winning the war. It has absolutely no reason to carry out a chemical attack. Furthermore, that attack seemed to get a lot of civilians, but no rebels - not only not furthering a military goal already in sight, but creating internal and external problems for the government.
Meanwhile, the 'rebels', already widely known for gross atrocities on civilians (beheading people with dull knives, burning girls alive in cages, etc) and known by the US State Department to use crude chemical weapons like chlorine and Sarin, are supposed to be innocent of targeting civilians (in an attack that magically spared their comrades).

Do you really think that makes sense?




So anyway ... anyone up for a rational, fact-based, and civil discussion about the topic?

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Monday, April 16, 2018 8:09 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


International weapons inspectors say Syria and Russia have blocked them from entering the site of a chemical attack in Douma. But CBS News' Seth Doane got inside the city on Monday, and spoke with victims of the attack.


The inspectors, from the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons, arrived in Syria on Saturday with the urgent goal of investigating the site of the April 7 attack in the Damascus suburb of Douma, which killed dozens.

But 48 hours later the inspectors were prevented from reaching the site, which Syrian and Russian forces have captured from rebels.

The inspectors, who wanted to take samples and interview people, “are currently being prevented from doing so by the regime and the Russians,” Prime Minister Theresa May of Britain said in Parliament.

Russia — which has questioned whether the Douma attack even happened — ridiculed the Western accusation, asserting that the United Nations had exercised its authority to delay the inspectors for security reasons.

The United Nations disputed the Russian explanation, saying it had no security issues and wanted the inspectors to reach the site quickly.

When, or even whether, the inspectors would be allowed unfettered access to the site remained unclear Monday night, despite Russian and Syrian promises of cooperation.

Senior Russian diplomats said it was the United Nations, not Syria or Russia, that had prevented inspectors from entering Douma. “The problem was the absence of the U.N. secretariat security department’s approval for O.P.C.W. experts to visit Douma,” Sergei A. Ryabkov, deputy foreign minister of Russia, told reporters, according to the news agency Interfax.

But a spokesman for the United Nations, Stéphane Dujarric, said the United Nations had given the inspectors “all the necessary clearances.”

www.nytimes.com/2018/04/16/world/middleeast/syria-douma-chemical-attac
k.html


The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Monday, April 16, 2018 9:37 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

Originally posted by second:
International weapons inspectors Theresa May says Syria and Russia have blocked them from entering the site of a chemical attack in Douma.

Neither your video nor your link say the INSPECTORS are being quoted. In fact, what's being echoed are the claims of POLITICIANS. In contrast, what the OPCW said was this:
Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
The Director-General of the OPCW, Ahmet Üzümcü, told representatives Monday that team members have met with Syrian officials in Damascus.
"The Syrian and Russian officials who participated in the preparatory meetings in Damascus have informed the [Fact-Finding Mission] Team that there were still pending security issues to be worked out before any deployment could take place," Üzümcü said.






So anyway ... anyone up for a rational, fact-based, and civil discussion about the topic?

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Monday, April 16, 2018 11:38 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Quote:

Originally posted by second:
International weapons inspectors Theresa May says Syria and Russia have blocked them from entering the site of a chemical attack in Douma.

Neither your video nor your link say the INSPECTORS are being quoted. In fact, what's being echoed are the claims of POLITICIANS. In contrast, what the OPCW said was this:
Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
The Director-General of the OPCW, Ahmet Üzümcü, told representatives Monday that team members have met with Syrian officials in Damascus.
"The Syrian and Russian officials who participated in the preparatory meetings in Damascus have informed the [Fact-Finding Mission] Team that there were still pending security issues to be worked out before any deployment could take place," Üzümcü said.



You give worthless answers, 1kiki. You didn't understand that video, did you? A CBS reporter sneaked in without Russian permission, looked around the building where he was told people were poisoned, looked at some photos of dead people, looked at a hole in the top floor with a steel cylinder laying partially in that hole, looked at a bucket full of home-made hand grenades, came back out, and there is no pending security issue except in the imagination of the Russians. Before you give another worthless answer, there are NO pending security issues - the Russians are lying. The reporter walked all over the place. The inspectors could do the same, despite what Russians say, but only if inspectors could sneak in the same way the reporter did. Except there will be nothing to find because the chlorine gas has evaporated. The next step is to autopsy the dead. If the bodies have been buried for two weeks, rather than refrigerated, there won't be anything to find because their lungs will have decomposed. Then the Russians will smirk and say, "You can't prove anything." Mission Accomplished.

www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/tp172-c1.pdf

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Tuesday, April 17, 2018 1:10 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


So instead of 'believing' Theresa May in her pronouncement, you 'believe' a reporter who examined perhaps 400 square feet.

Jihadists have been entrenched there for a long time. Can YOU say for certain there are no booby traps, no IEDs, no left-over jihadists waiting for one last shot (literally) at paradise?




So anyway ... anyone up for a rational, fact-based, and civil discussion about the topic?

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Tuesday, April 17, 2018 7:58 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

only if inspectors could sneak in the same way the reporter did. Except there will be nothing to find because the chlorine gas has evaporated.- SECONDRATE
AH, the joys of being a chemist.

SECONDRATE, have you ever done laundry? Probably not: You depend on your female wetbacks for that. (I would expand that to: Have you ever done anything useful or productive in your life? Probably not: You're feeling too sorry for yourself to bestir yourself in that direction. But, I digress...)

Have you ever used bleach? Have you ever dripped some on your jeans? Have you ever found a whitened spot where the bleach dripped?

Hmm... The active ingredient in bleach is the active ingredient in chlorine gas: chlorine is a powerful oxidizer, and it attacks reactive molecules first - the kind that make up dyes and natural colors. Chlorine (gas or liquid) bleaches whatever it comes in contact with, so even if the gas disappears, the bleaching stays behind.

So, to make the point absolutely clear so that even the densest can't escape it: Chlorine gas leaves a signature bleaching that can't be reversed.

The Magic Eightball says TRY AGAIN.





-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

America is an oligarchy
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Tuesday, April 17, 2018 8:14 AM

CAPTAINCRUNCH

... stay crunchy...


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
The Syrian government is winning the war.



For the last 7 years they've been "winning."

Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki: Furthermore, that attack seemed to get a lot of civilians, but no rebels - not only not furthering a military goal already in sight, but creating internal and external problems for the government.


You can't seriously be looking for common sense or logic in what drives the Medusa that is the Middle East, can you?

So, how would one go about counting Rebel dead anyway? From Assad's pov the number has to be zero or else he admits to using chemical weapons. From the Rebels pov would they want to claim any? Who would count that and confirm it? Perhaps you have evidence of "only civilians dead."

And what's with bringing back years old, 'made the headlines in the US" ISIL terrorist acts? Is that the new line to win over US "news" consumers? I thought Trump said we were done with them anyway, threat over? And finally: is cutting someone's head off with a dull knife somehow worse than using a sharp one? What's up with you and Siggy specifically repeating that odd descriptor?

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Tuesday, April 17, 2018 8:17 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

only if inspectors could sneak in the same way the reporter did. Except there will be nothing to find because the chlorine gas has evaporated.- SECONDRATE
AH, the joys of being a chemist.

SECONDRATE, have you ever done laundry? Probably not: You depend on your female wetbacks for that. (I would expand that to: Have you ever done anything useful or productive in your life? Probably not: You're feeling too sorry for yourself to bestir yourself in that direction. But, I digress...)

Have you ever used bleach? Have you ever dripped some on your jeans? Have you ever found a whitened spot where the bleach dripped?

Hmm... The active ingredient in bleach is the active ingredient in chlorine gas: chlorine is a powerful oxidizer, and it attacks reactive molecules first - the kind that make up dyes and natural colors. Chlorine (gas or liquid) bleaches whatever it comes in contact with, so even if the gas disappears, the bleaching stays behind.

So, to make the point absolutely clear so that even the densest can't escape it: Chlorine gas leaves a signature bleaching that can't be reversed.

The Magic Eightball says TRY AGAIN.

Syria drops one chlorine cylinder, estimated cost $100, and the Trump fires back:

66 Raytheon Tomahawk cruise missiles, estimated cost of $1.4 million each.

19 Lockheed Martin (LMT) Joint Air-to-Surface Standoff Missiles Extended Range, or JASSM-ER, estimated cost of $1.4 million each.

www.cnbc.com/2018/04/16/syria-airstrikes-cost-to-us-taxpayers.html

Trump owns an unknown number of shares in Raytheon and Lockheed Martin. Last week, when Trump first heard about a so-called "chemical attack" in Syria, he was ready to go raise his stock prices because that is who he is. And the Russians shot down 71 cruise missiles, which contradicts what the Pentagon said about all cruise missiles hitting the targets. It is the fog of war.
www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/14/russia-claims-syria-air-defences
-shot-down-majority-missiles


The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Tuesday, April 17, 2018 9:20 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


SECOND, AS USUAL YOU VEER OFF YOUR ORIGINAL POINT WHEN IT BECOMES TOO HOT FOR YOU, AND POST YET ANOTHER WORTHLESS PIECE OF TRIPE.

HERE IS THE LESS-FILTERED ACCOUNT OF A REPORTER WHO WENT, UNACCOMPANIED, TO THE SITE OF THE SUPPOSED ATTACK

Quote:

The search for truth in the rubble of Douma – and one doctor’s doubts over the chemical attack

... At the same time, inspectors from the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) are currently blocked from coming here to the site of the alleged gas attack themselves, ostensibly because they lacked the correct UN permits.

Before we go any further, readers should be aware that this is not the only story in Douma. There are the many people I talked to amid the ruins of the town who said they had “never believed in” gas stories – which were usually put about, they claimed, by the armed Islamist groups. These particular jihadis survived under a blizzard of shellfire by living in other’s people’s homes and in vast, wide tunnels with underground roads carved through the living rock by prisoners with pick-axes on three levels beneath the town. I walked through three of them yesterday, vast corridors of living rock which still contained Russian – yes, Russian – rockets and burned-out cars.

So the story of Douma is thus not just a story of gas – or no gas, as the case may be. It’s about thousands of people who did not opt for evacuation from Douma on buses that left last week, alongside the gunmen with whom they had to live like troglodytes for months in order to survive. I walked across this town quite freely yesterday without soldier, policeman or minder to haunt my footsteps, just two Syrian friends, a camera and a notebook. I sometimes had to clamber across 20-foot-high ramparts, up and down almost sheer walls of earth. Happy to see foreigners among them, happier still that the siege is finally over, they are mostly smiling; those whose faces you can see, of course, because a surprising number of Douma’s women wear full-length black hijab.

I first drove into Douma as part of an escorted convoy of journalists. But once a boring general had announced outside a wrecked council house “I have no information” – that most helpful rubbish-dump of Arab officialdom – I just walked away. Several other reporters, mostly Syrian, did the same. Even a group of Russian journalists – all in military attire – drifted off.

It was a short walk to Dr Rahaibani. From the door of his subterranean clinic – “Point 200”, it is called, in the weird geology of this partly-underground city – is a corridor leading downhill where he showed me his lowly hospital and the few beds where a small girl was crying as nurses treated a cut above her eye.

“I was with my family in the basement of my home three hundred metres from here on the night but all the doctors know what happened. There was a lot of shelling [by government forces] and aircraft were always over Douma at night – but on this night, there was wind and huge dust clouds began to come into the basements and cellars where people lived. People began to arrive here suffering from hypoxia, oxygen loss. Then someone at the door, a “White Helmet”, shouted “Gas!”, and a panic began. People started throwing water over each other. Yes, the video was filmed here, it is genuine, but what you see are people suffering from hypoxia – not gas poisoning.”

Oddly, after chatting to more than 20 people, I couldn’t find one who showed the slightest interest in Douma’s role in bringing about the Western air attacks. Two actually told me they didn’t know about the connection.

But it was a strange world I walked into. Two men, Hussam and Nazir Abu Aishe, said they were unaware how many people had been killed in Douma, although the latter admitted he had a cousin “executed by Jaish el-Islam [the Army of Islam] for allegedly being “close to the regime”. They shrugged when I asked about the 43 people said to have died in the infamous Douma attack.

The White Helmets – the medical first responders already legendary in the West but with some interesting corners to their own story – played a familiar role during the battles. They are partly funded by the Foreign Office and most of the local offices were staffed by Douma men. I found their wrecked offices not far from Dr Rahaibani’s clinic. A gas mask had been left outside a food container with one eye-piece pierced and a pile of dirty military camouflage uniforms lay inside one room. Planted, I asked myself? I doubt it. The place was heaped with capsules, broken medical equipment and files, bedding and mattresses.

Of course we must hear their side of the story, but it will not happen here: a woman told us that every member of the White Helmets in Douma abandoned their main headquarters and chose to take the government-organised and Russian-protected buses to the rebel province of Idlib with the armed groups when the final truce was agreed.

MORE AT https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/syria-chemical-attack-gas-douma-r
obert-fisk-ghouta-damascus-a8307726.html




-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

America is an oligarchy
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Tuesday, April 17, 2018 9:52 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
SECOND, AS USUAL YOU VEER OFF YOUR ORIGINAL POINT WHEN IT BECOMES TOO HOT FOR YOU, AND POST YET ANOTHER WORTHLESS PIECE OF TRIPE.

HERE IS THE LESS-FILTERED ACCOUNT OF A REPORTER WHO WENT, UNACCOMPANIED, TO THE SITE OF THE SUPPOSED ATTACK.

Signym, the point in the article you quote is that there was no chlorine. Your Trump doesn't care if there was chlorine or not. My point is that all sides are lying about everything. The Russians said they would destroy the ships and planes that fired on Syria. That didn't happen. Seventy one cruise missiles were shot down. That didn't happen. The Russians say that there is too much danger for the inspectors to inspect for chemical weapons today. That isn't true because a CBS reporter already looked around. Trump's ambassador to the U.N. said there would be more sanctions on Russia. That didn't happen. Are we detecting a pattern yet?
www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/4/16/17242484/nikki-haley-trump-r
ussia-sanctions-syria


Trump has financial ties which might explain his decision to bomb Syria, but his finances are so incoherent that no one knows why he does anything. And then there is Trump's constant lying about why he does what he does. Are we detecting a pattern yet?
www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/4/16/17238058/syria-bombing-trump
-business-interests


The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Tuesday, April 17, 2018 12:08 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Did SECOND say something on-topic?

I have no idea, I scrolled right past it's post.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

America is an oligarchy
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Tuesday, April 17, 2018 1:28 PM

KPO

Anti-Russia before it was cool.


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
HERE IS THE LESS-FILTERED ACCOUNT OF A REPORTER WHO WENT, UNACCOMPANIED, TO THE SITE OF THE SUPPOSED ATTACK



Knew it would be Robert Fisk before I even saw it

For those of you who don't know, Fisk is a British journalist and infamous shill for the Assad regime. If you're wondering why this guy has been given access to the site and other journalists have not (and you should be) then this is your answer. Every atrocity pro-Assad journalists are escorted in and shown around by their Syrian government minders. As long as they stick to the Syrian government narrative in their reporting, they get this privileged access to sites of international news interest.



-------------------------------------------------------

"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."

Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Syrian regime collusion with ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521


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Tuesday, April 17, 2018 2:05 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
SECOND, AS USUAL YOU VEER OFF YOUR ORIGINAL POINT WHEN IT BECOMES TOO HOT FOR YOU, AND POST YET ANOTHER WORTHLESS PIECE OF TRIPE.

HERE IS THE LESS-FILTERED ACCOUNT OF A REPORTER WHO WENT, UNACCOMPANIED, TO THE SITE OF THE SUPPOSED ATTACK

Signym, if you are not already being paid to post for Russia, you should be. Contact Putin and ask for your much deserved back pay.

Russia’s top diplomats have time and again assured American, Arab, and European policymakers that they are not wedded to President Bashar al-Assad.

But Russian President Vladimir Putin is showing just how far he’ll go to keep Assad — Moscow’s key surviving Arab ally — in power.

Saving Assad from meeting the same fate as other regional despots like Libya’s Muammar al-Qaddafi and Egyptian leader Hosni Mubarak is emerging as a key facet of Russia’s Middle East strategy.

By propping up one of the region’s most vilified leaders, Moscow is sending a powerful message about its willingness to act aggressively in a region where many of America’s closest allies are feeling insecure — and questioning Washington’s commitment to have their backs in the future.

http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/10/07/putins-russia-is-wedded-to-bashar-
al-assad-syria-moscow
/

Russia's support for Mr Assad has less to do with Syria per se, than with the West. The Kremlin watched the Arab Spring in horror, seeing uprisings against authoritarian leaders as American conspiracies. While Mr Putin harbors no particular personal affection for Mr Assad, the Syrian leader has become a symbol of resisting "colour revolutions" and attempts at "regime change". Having backed Mr Assad thus far, allowing him to fall now would mean that Mr Putin is "retreating under American pressure, which is the one thing he cannot do," argues Georgy Mirsky of Moscow's Higher School of Economics. The latest gambit in Syria has also helped Mr Putin deflect attention from the unwon war in Ukraine and bring Russia back into the company of world powers—Mr Obama met Mr Putin at the UN General Assembly for the first time in two years. Mr Putin's message, both to the domestic audience and to the non-Western world, is that Russia remains indispensable to solving global problems, whether the West likes it or not.

In keeping with his style, Mr Putin has opted to play hardball in Syria. Rather than contributing to the war's resolution, Russia's presence will likely deepen the conflict. While America has softened its stance on the need for Mr Assad's immediate exit, his presence presents an intractable obstacle to any cooperation between Russia's ad-hoc coalition (which so far includes Iran, Iraq and Syria) and America's. Yet with air defence assets already on the ground, the Kremlin can impose a no-fly zone for NATO forces; on Wednesday it declared a de facto one, though coalition countries said they were continuing to fly missions, raising the prospect of potentially disastrous accidents. So far, Russian officials emphasize that ground operations are not up for discussion. Support among the Russian population for intervention in Syria remains low, and the spectre of the Soviet Union's decade long war in Afghanistan still looms. Yet so too does the risk of mission creep. The more chips Mr Putin places on Syria, the harder it will be for him to fold.

www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2015/09/economist-explains-
22


The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Tuesday, April 17, 2018 5:19 PM

KPO

Anti-Russia before it was cool.


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
By some accounts then, 58 attacks haven't been attributed to anybody.


Err, your own link says:

"The information, based on data from seven sources, shows that the Syrian government is responsible for the majority of 85 confirmed chemical weapon attacks."

HRW have recorded a greater number of confirmed chemical attacks than the UN, but their conclusions are the same. They can't always ascribe blame, but when they can, it's almost always Assad (3 cases out of the 85 are blamed on ISIS, and another 1 was probably ISIS - all in Aleppo province in 2016).

Quote:

So, let's go over your childish notions.

Let's stick with yours for a little while longer. Your theory about the Douma chemical attack is that the rebels attacked their own territory as a "false flag" so that Assad would get the blame. But we've established now (via your link and mine) that Assad has carried out dozens of chemical attacks - so why frame him for something he does regularly anyway? And even if Assad has been framed, doesn't he deserve retribution for all those chemical attacks he has been found guilty of?

Like I say, "Oh, but maybe he's not guilty of this chemical attack" is a pretty funny line of defense.

Quote:

The Syrian government is winning the war. It has absolutely no reason to carry out a chemical attack.



Let me quote this thread from 2017, after the Khan Shaykhun sarin attack, where you and your buddies argue that Assad had "no reason" to carry out a chemical attack: http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=61551&p=2

Signy (quoting one of her blogs): "Assad’s military has gained a decisive advantage over the rebels... The savvy Assad would know that a chemical weapon attack now would likely result in U.S. retaliation..."

6String: "The real question is, why would Assad have gassed his citizens? What was there to gain from doing so? He had nothing to gain and everything to lose."

kiki: "There is ZERO reason for him to have done it."

Of course, about a week or so later, the OPCW concluded their investigation and reported that Assad did indeed do it.

Quote:


Do you really think that makes sense?


Once we dispel the "Why would cuddly Uncle Assad use chemical weapons against his own people?" line of thinking, and accept that he is using chemical weapons, again and again, we can start to have an intelligent conversation about WHY he's doing it.

Here's a good article addressing that very question:

https://www.usnews.com/opinion/world-report/articles/2017-04-10/why-di
d-syrias-bashar-assad-use-chemical-weapons




-------------------------------------------------------

"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."

Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Syrian regime collusion with ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521


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Tuesday, April 17, 2018 6:06 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:

Here's a good article addressing that very question:

https://www.usnews.com/opinion/world-report/articles/2017-04-10/why-di
d-syrias-bashar-assad-use-chemical-weapons




That's some mighty fine speculation.

I hear there's some WMDs in Iraq. They're buried under the rubble of the Saddam statues the people tumbled to the ground.



It should be noted that the line right under this article reads as follows:

Quote:

Brian Michael Jenkins, Opinion Contributor


Emphasis on the "Opinion" part.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Tuesday, April 17, 2018 6:34 PM

KPO

Anti-Russia before it was cool.


Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
I hear there's some WMDs in Iraq.


Did you miss the part where the UN blamed the Assad regime for 27 chemical attacks? Is the UN part of the conspiracy? The OPCW and HRW (whom kiki is citing)? Amnesty International?

Quote:


Emphasis on the "Opinion" part.


I'd say the article falls more accurately under "analysis" - http://thespeaker.co/difference-news-opinion-analysis/

But you're right, there's a lot of "speculation" involved in analysing the strategy of a mass-murderer.

-------------------------------------------------------

"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."

Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Syrian regime collusion with ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521


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Tuesday, April 17, 2018 7:53 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

HRW have recorded a greater number of confirmed chemical attacks
HRW "reported" on a massacre in Benghazi under Qaddafi which never occurred. It was full of horrifying vignettes, like the six-year old girl who was on a second-story balcony when a tank veered too close, clipped the support post, and caused the little girl to tumble down onto the street where she was crushed under the tank tread. Stories of civilians being "massacred" en masse. Too bad it was false.

Quote:

[Gaddafi’s] forces certainly harmed innocents while defeating rebels in urban areas, as U.S. forces have done in Iraq and Afghanistan. And he did threaten "no mercy" in Benghazi, but Gadhafi directed this threat only at rebels to persuade them to flee. Despite ubiquitous cellphone cameras, there are no images of genocidal violence, a claim that smacks of rebel propaganda.
https://foreignpolicy.com/2011/04/07/was-there-going-to-be-a-benghazi-
massacre
/

The discrepancy between what HRW reported and the real truth behind was, for me, shocking. I'll give you another example: Amy Goodman's "Democracy Now" reporting ONLY from the "rebel" side in Libya. Didn't the reporters realize that they were embedded with a bunch of jihadists? I can give you other examples of the bias that they demonstrate, but I'll save if for another day. But I now disbelieve ANYthing that the supposedly neutral "human rights" organizations "report".

Back to HRW: It allies itself with rendition and "regime change" policies of the Obama administration, no matter WHICH human rights were being violated.
Quote:

So why has Human Rights Watch (HRW)—despite proclaiming itself “one of the world’s leading independent organizations” on human rights—so consistently paralleled U.S. positions and policies? This affinity for the U.S. government agenda is not limited to Latin America. In the summer of 2013, for example, when the prospect of a unilateral U.S. missile strike on Syria— a clear violation of the UN Charter—loomed large, HRW’s executive director Kenneth Roth speculated as to whether a simply “symbolic” bombing would be sufficient. “If Obama decides to strike Syria, will he settle for symbolism or do something that will help protect civilians?” he asked on Twitter. Executive director of MIT’s Center for International Studies John Tirman swiftly denounced the tweet as “possibly the most ignorant and irresponsible statement ever by a major human-rights advocate.”

HRW’s accommodation to U.S. policy has also extended to renditions—the illegal practice of kidnapping and transporting suspects around the planet to be interrogated and often tortured in allied countries. In early 2009, when it was reported that the newly elected Obama administration was leaving this program intact, HRW’s then Washington advocacy director Tom Malinowski argued that “under limited circumstances, there is a legitimate place” for renditions, and encouraged patience: “they want to design a system that doesn’t result in people being sent to foreign dungeons to be tortured,” he said, “but designing that system is going to take some time.”


https://nacla.org/article/hypocrisy-human-rights-watch

One of the reasons for the huge policy crossover between neocons and HRW is the revolving door between them, and international corporations.

Quote:

Malinowski’s background is but one example of a larger scenario. HRW’s institutional culture is shaped by its leadership’s intimate links to various arms of the U.S. government.

In her HRW biography, the vice chair of HRW’s board of directors, Susan Manilow, describes herself as “a longtime friend to Bill Clinton,” and helped manage his campaign finances. (HRW once signed a letter to Clinton advocating the prosecution of Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic for war crimes; HRW made no case for holding Clinton accountable for NATO’s civilian-killing bombings despite concluding that they constituted “violations of international humanitarian law.”)

Bruce Rabb, also on Human Rights Watch’s Board of Directors, advertises in his biography that he “served as staff assistant to President Richard Nixon” from 1969-70—the period in which that administration secretly and illegally carpet bombed Cambodia and Laos.

The advisory committee for HRW’s Americas Division has even boasted the presence of a former Central Intelligence Agency official, Miguel Díaz. According to his State Department biography, Díaz served as a CIA analyst and also provided “oversight of U.S. intelligence activities in Latin America” for the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence. As of 2012, Díaz focused, as he once did for the CIA, on Central America for the State Department’s DRL—the same bureau now to be supervised by Malinowski.

Other HRW associates have similarly questionable backgrounds: Myles Frechette, currently an advisory committee member for the Americas Division, served as Assistant U.S. Trade Representative for Latin America and the Caribbean from 1990-93, and then became U.S. Ambassador to Colombia from 1994-97. Frechette subsequently worked as the executive director of a “nonprofit” group called the North American-Peruvian Business Council, and championed the interests of his funders in front of Congress. His organization received financing from companies such as Newmont Mining, Barrick Gold, Caterpillar, Continental Airlines, J.P. Morgan, ExxonMobil, Patton Boggs, and Texaco.

Michael Shifter, who also currently serves on HRW’s Americas advisory committee, directed the Latin America and Caribbean program for the National Endowment for Democracy (NED)[funded by Soros] a quasi-governmental entity whose former acting president Allen Weinstein told The Washington Post in 1991 that “a lot of what we do today was done covertly 25 years ago by the CIA.” Shifter, as current president of a policy center called the Inter-American Dialogue, oversees $4 million a year in programming, financed in part through donations from the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID), the embassies of Canada, Germany, Guatemala, Mexico and Spain, and corporations such as Chevron, ExxonMobil, J.P. Morgan, Microsoft, Coca-Cola, Boeing, and Western Union.

To be sure, not all of the organization’s leadership has been so involved in dubious political activities. Many HRW board members are simply investment bankers, like board co-chairs Joel Motley of Public Capital Advisors, LLC, and Hassan Elmasry, of Independent Franchise Partners, LLP. HRW Vice Chair John Studzinski is a senior managing director at The Blackstone Group, a private equity firm founded by Peter G. Peterson, the billionaire who has passionately sought to eviscerate Social Security and Medicare. And although Julien J. Studley, the Vice Chair of the Americas advisory committee, once served in the U.S. Army’s psychological warfare unit, he is now just another wealthy real-estate tycoon in New York.

That HRW’s advocacy reflects its institutional makeup is unremarkable.



https://nacla.org/article/hypocrisy-human-rights-watch

MOST of these organizations reflect neocon policies, are funded by corporations and people like George Soros. Here's another hint: The NED does NOT promote democracy, and
USAID is NOT an aid organization.

Time for you to stop being so naive.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

America is an oligarchy
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Wednesday, April 18, 2018 12:05 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
I hear there's some WMDs in Iraq.


Did you miss the part where the UN blamed the Assad regime for 27 chemical attacks? Is the UN part of the conspiracy? The OPCW and HRW (whom kiki is citing)? Amnesty International?



I don't trust what our own government has to say about things that happen within our own borders. I give whatever the UN has to say about anything 50/50 at best.

I'm not saying it didn't happen. I'm just saying that there is no reason for me to believe one way or the other. There's certainly not enough reason for me to believe that we should be involved at all.

We've got no business over there or anywhere else. None. I'd say the same thing if I believed 100% that any of this were true.

Quote:


Emphasis on the "Opinion" part.


I'd say the article falls more accurately under "analysis" - http://thespeaker.co/difference-news-opinion-analysis/

But you're right, there's a lot of "speculation" involved in analysing the strategy of a mass-murderer.



"You'd say", huh? You're entitled to your own opinion as well.

I just noticed I missed the byline underneath the sub-title of the article you linked where the author calls himself a "Opinion Contributor".

That's twice in the same article that he uses that title (or usnews.com uses it for him).

Those two words have the highest probability of anything on that web page given that they are 100% true. I actually applaud their honesty about that. The state of affairs in our own country might be a lot better if the talking heads at the 24 hour news networks on both sides had those words tattooed on their foreheads backwards as a constant reminder that this is all they are while they're riling everyone up and pocketing their millions of dollars per year they're being paid to do it.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Wednesday, April 18, 2018 8:36 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Senators leave classified briefing on Trump's Syria policy 'very unnerved'
www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/senators-leave-classified-briefing-on-
trumps-syria-policy-very-unnerved/ar-AAvZEig?ocid=spartandhp


Lawmakers emerged from a classified administration briefing expressing concern about administration policy on Syria and the legal justification for last week's military strikes against the regime of Bashar al-Assad.

"I am very unnerved by what I'm hearing and seeing," said Sen. Lindsey Graham, a South Carolina Republican, who said the briefing on the strikes made him more worried, not less. The administration is "going down a dangerous path", without offering details. . . .

Trump Administration officials briefing the lawmakers restated their argument that Article 2 of the Constitution, which makes the president commander of the armed forces. But many lawmakers feel the President needs congressional approval and used the hearing to argue for passage of a new Authorization of Military Force.

Rep. John Garamendi, a California Republican, argued that Article 2 is too broad, and he was concerned it could be used for additional action in other regions, saying to reporters, "that justification allows the President to wage war anywhere, anytime, anyplace he might want to, by simply saying it's in the national security interests."

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Wednesday, April 18, 2018 9:10 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


Quote:

Rep. John Garamendi, a California Republican, argued that Article 2 is too broad, and he was concerned it could be used for additional action in other regions, saying to reporters, "that justification allows the President to wage war anywhere, anytime, anyplace he might want to, by simply saying it's in the national security interests."


"Could be used"?????

Maybe it's time something is finally done about this, huh?

For those with short attention spans, Trump will be the third President in a row to abuse Article 2. Why is congress so worthless?



Instead of blaming this on Republicans running the entire show again, why don't we add this to the list of things that Democrats should do something about the next time they're in control of things?

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Wednesday, April 18, 2018 10:57 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

For those with short attention spans a delusional case of partisanship, Trump will be the third President in a row ... ONE OF WHOM WAS A DEMOCRAT ... to abuse Article 2.
Just to be pellucidly clear.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

America is an oligarchy
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Wednesday, April 18, 2018 11:17 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

For those with short attention spans a delusional case of partisanship, Trump will be the third President in a row ... ONE OF WHOM WAS A DEMOCRAT ... to abuse Article 2.
Just to be pellucidly clear.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

America is an oligarchy
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876



One of whom was a Democrat who won the Nobel Peace Prize during a two year time period where the Democrats had a majority in both the House and Senate, yet there was still nothing done to rein in Presidential abuse of Article 2 that has been a constant for almost all of my adult life now.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Wednesday, April 18, 2018 12:43 PM

CAPTAINCRUNCH

... stay crunchy...


https://ahvalnews.com/syria/trumps-bombing-campaign-syria-exactly-what
-putin-and-assad-wanted


Trump’s Bombing Campaign In Syria Is Exactly What Putin And Assad Wanted
By James Miller

The world looked on in horror nearly this month as videos emerged from the Damascus suburb of Douma showing what many experts suspected was yet another chemical weapons attack against civilians. As many as 70 people may have been killed in this latest incident , though questions remain because Russia has blocked experts from The Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) from entering the site for more than three days, creating a fear of a cover up.

In response, on Friday, April 13, the people of Damascus frantically reported what sounded like “World War III”. The United States, France, and Britain launched 105 cruise missiles at three locations reportedly linked to the Syrian government’s production of chemical weapons. Two locations just west of Homs - the Him Shinshar chemical weapons storage site and bunker - and one location in the heart of Damascus - the Barzeh weapons research facility - were flattened by the coalition in response to the latest chemical weapons attack launched by the Assad regime.

But while alarmists and propagandists across the globe warned that such a bold move could turn the new cold war between Russia and the west into a hot one, the reality is that these strikes were extremely limited. Worse yet, the largest effect they will have is to strengthen the rhetorical position of the Russian and Syrian regime, without having any noticeable negative impact on their operational capabilities.

To see this dynamic we need only compare the pictures of the aftermath to the reports from the Syrian regime’s media. Lieutenant General Kenneth f. McKenzie, the director of the Pentagon’s Joint Staff, said that “by hitting Barzah, we have hit the heart of the Syrian chemical weapons programme", and General Joseph E. Dunford Jr., the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said that the Homs strikes destroyed “the primary location of Syrian sarin and precursor production equipment”, as well as “both a chemical weapons storage facility and an important command post”. The pictures released by the U.S. military, however, show that the strikes have eliminated perhaps half a dozen buildings between the three sites that were struck.

Therefore, the real message being sent - again - by U.S. President Donald Trump and the rest of the West is that the world does not care about the Syrian regime’s daily air and artillery strikes against the people of Syria. The world is not concerned that Russia has greatly intensified that violence with the addition of its sophisticated aircraft and private military contractors. The world is not responding to the Iranian takeover of a foreign nation nor its supporting role in the torture and detention of citizens there. The only thing that matters is that no chemical weapons are used in these processes, and if chemical weapons are used, then only sites pertaining to chemical weapons will be destroyed.

On the other hand, the U.S.-led strikes help bolster a major talking point in Russian, Syrian, and Iranian propaganda - that the United States is a meddling foreign empire, and an adversary to those nations which do not subscribe to its worldviews. Russian President Vladimir Putin, Syrian President Bashar Assad, and the hardliners in Iran all maintain their power by pushing a consistent narrative - that despite the best intentions of their own countries and governments, the United States is an ideological, economic, and sometimes military aggressor and an existential threat to the people of Russia, Syria, Iran and elsewhere. In the days before and after these air strikes, the domestic media in all of these countries, particularly state-controlled propaganda outlets, cited the airstrikes as proof of this theory. These strikes, therefore, politically strengthened these regimes without militarily weakening them.

In the weeks before this new use of chemical weapons, regular incidents of horror should have reminded the world that Assad’s Syria is a rogue state, a nation that refuses to conform to international law while it conducts heinous atrocities against its own people, but also against anyone who tries to stop it.

The first example is Douma itself, the site of the latest chemical weapons attack. After years of heavy warfare, the Syrian regime negotiated a plan with the various rebel groups that held that territory that would see the forced relocation of fighters and civilians in exchange for a ceasefire. During the negotiations, food and supplies to Douma were cut, and the Syrian and Russian regimes relentlessly bombed and shelled the neighbourhood day and night. The prize for those who bent a knee to Assad was a long bus ride to Idlib province, in northern Syria, a place with a different culture than Damascus and a territory that is still under heavy attack. When negotiations fell apart in the middle of the evacuation on April 5, the prize for those who stayed was a chemical weapons attack that occurred two days later.

Despite the fact that forced relocation is defined by the Geneva Convention as a form of genocide or ethnic cleansing, the disinterested world treated such a deal as a major humanitarian breakthrough and only paid attention when the videos of choking children emerged.

The affected Syrians, both those who stayed and those who fled to Idlib, have been scarred and broken. They have received the message. The Syrian regime has been rewarded - they now have nearly full control over Douma, and they only had to give up six or seven chemical weapons research and storage buildings to get it, a very good trade.

The brutal, unscrupulous, and genocidal nature of the Assad government is always shocking but should not come as a surprise anymore.

In the weeks before the Douma chemical weapons attack, a new report unveiled by the family of journalist Marie Colvin provides evidence that the reporter was murdered by the Syria regime in February 2012. Colvin snuck into the besieged Baba Amr neighbourhood of Homs to bare witness to the Syrian regime’s atrocities. Despite the fact that Assad had agreed to withdraw all soldiers from Syrian cities just days prior to the start of the shelling of Homs, Colvin’s reporting showed the world that the Syrian government was as deceitful as it was homicidal. The new report claims that Colvin was stalked and her location deliberately shelled by the regime.

The world should have known then that Assad would stop at nothing to maintain control. It should have been clear then that a policy needed to be put in place to not only isolate the regime but to stop the bloodshed. There was no policy then, and there does not appear to be one now.

All Trump’s new bombing campaign has done is cement the bloody status quo.

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Wednesday, April 18, 2018 2:08 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


Yup. It shouldn't have been done.

To be fair, if it wasn't done, the Left would have found a reason to attack Trump for standing back and doing nothing as well.


I'm pretty pissed they did it, seeing as how it was a lose-lose situation for him either way.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Thursday, April 19, 2018 8:30 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


SIX- I was disappointed with the missile launches too. But as I thought about it, I came to the idea that Trump's arms were being twisted, not only by the deep state in the USA but also by the deep state in the UK and France, and that he chose the least bad option.

The President isn't an all-powerful position, or at least it wasn't designed that way. There are political exigencies that he (or she) has to respond to. Even FDR, patron saint of Democrats, lost a few bruising battles in Congress and the Supreme Court and took some actions - like using troops to break a coal strike during WWII and using patriotism as the excuse ...

Quote:

I have placed authority for the resumption of coal mining in the hands of a civilian, the Secretary of the Interior. If it becomes necessary to protect any miner who seeks patriotically to go back and work, then that miner must have and his family must have -- and will have -- complete and adequate protection. If it becomes necessary to have troops at the mine mouths or in coal towns for the protection of working miners and their families, those troops will be doing police duty for the sake of the nation as a whole ... Tonight, in the fact of a crisis of serious proportions in the coal industry, I say again that the spirit or this nation is good. I know that the American people will not tolerate any threat offered to their Government by anyone. I believe the coal miners will not continue the strike against their (the) Government. I believe that the coal miners (themselves) as Americans will not fail to heed the clear call to duty. Like all other good Americans, they will march shoulder to shoulder with their armed forces to victory.
http://docs.fdrlibrary.marist.edu/050243.html

Given everything, this may have been the best that Trump could do.

******

Did anyone notice that even tho so-called Chemical Weapons facilities were bombed, no clouds of toxic gases were released? It seems to me that if these facilities were in any way involved the production and storage of chemical weapons ... weapons of the quantity that could be used in a chemical attack .... you would have seen SOME toxic releases.

Here's an example of what you MIGHT have seen: Do you recall the crash of an El Al (Israeli) airline into a Dutch tenement?

It was a very weired investigation: Much like 9-11, videotaped evidence was deleted, as were investigators notes and interviews. The cargo manifest was secret. But victims at the crash site complained for YEARS that they got sick from the crash; it wasn't until about eight years later that a whistleblower leaked a photocopy of the manifest, which showed that three of four Sarin precursors were loaded on that plane bound for Israel. This crash and investigation did several things:

It revealed Israel's CHEMICAL WEAPONS PROGRAM.

It showed how far the Dutch government was willing to keep its collusion with Israel secret, shredding the interviews and confiscating reporters records, even allowing their own beloved Queen Beatrix to wander among the fire hoses and runoff to demonstrate that the site was "safe"

It showed that even the heat and flames of a fiery crash can't destroy chemical weapons precursors from affecting the nearby neighborhood.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

America is an oligarchy
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Thursday, April 19, 2018 9:12 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
SIX- I was disappointed with the missile launches too. But as I thought about it, I came to the idea that Trump's arms were being twisted, not only by the deep state in the USA but also by the deep state in the UK and France, and that he chose the least bad option.

Signym, you are a liar. Trump had decided immediately that it was a Chemical Attack. Nobody twisted his arm, there wasn't time, to force Trump to come to that conclusion.
www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/Timeline-of-Syrian-Chemical-Weapons-Act
ivity


Donald J. Trump @realDonaldTrump

Many dead, including women and children, in mindless CHEMICAL attack in Syria. Area of atrocity is in lockdown and encircled by Syrian Army, making it completely inaccessible to outside world. President Putin, Russia and Iran are responsible for backing Animal Assad. Big price...
6:00 AM - 8 Apr 2018
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/982966315467116544

....to pay. Open area immediately for medical help and verification. Another humanitarian disaster for no reason whatsoever. SICK!
6:04 AM - 8 Apr 2018
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/982967389028569088

If President Obama had crossed his stated Red Line In The Sand, the Syrian disaster would have ended long ago! Animal Assad would have been history!
6:12 AM - 8 Apr 2018
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/982969547283161090

Russia vows to shoot down any and all missiles fired at Syria. Get ready Russia, because they will be coming, nice and new and “smart!” You shouldn’t be partners with a Gas Killing Animal who kills his people and enjoys it!
3:57 AM - 11 Apr 2018
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/984022625440747520

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Thursday, April 19, 2018 10:14 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Did SECOND post something? I wouldn't know, I scrolled past it, because SECOND's posts are ALWAYS twisted by hate and bias.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

America is an oligarchy
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Thursday, April 19, 2018 11:07 AM

CAPTAINCRUNCH

... stay crunchy...


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Did SECOND post something? I wouldn't know, I scrolled past it, because SECOND's posts are ALWAYS twisted by hate and bias.



Yep - he posted a bunch of Trump's tweets, which you are right, are ALWAYS twisted by hate and bias.

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Thursday, April 19, 2018 2:39 PM

KPO

Anti-Russia before it was cool.


Quote:

I just noticed I missed the byline underneath the sub-title of the article you linked where the author calls himself a "Opinion Contributor".

Sure, but I think you miss the point of me posting that article. Kiki asked why Assad would be gassing his own people. Any answer to that is going to be 'opinion', I think you'll find. I answered with an article giving one theory, I can think of a few more.

The point is there are explanations for it, that make some sense. Much more sense than the rebels gassing themselves* dozens of times to 'frame Assad', and the UN, OPCW etc. going along with it.

*Yes, kiki, rebels have been victims of these attacks as well as civilians - check your own HRW link

-------------------------------------------------------

"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."

Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Syrian regime collusion with ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521


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Thursday, April 19, 2018 10:53 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Oh yeah, HRW... the one that so dishonestly claimed "massacre" in Libya.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

America is an oligarchy
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Friday, April 20, 2018 10:15 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


This post is called: "Are we detecting a pattern yet?" by Signym. Signym, I think I see a pattern that was laid out in a spreadsheet ( https://goo.gl/KdBpxQ ):

Lawmakers who supported the Syrian airstrikes are all Republican. There was one dingbat Democrat, Conor Lamb from Pennsylvania, whose position was unclear. Trump was very clear when he said he was motivated to authorize last Friday’s military action by the “evil and despicable” chemical attack launched by the government in the town of Douma a week earlier. He spoke of “mothers and fathers, infants and children thrashing in pain and gasping for air” and called Syrian leader Bashar al-Assad a “monster.” Trump did not wait for the inspectors to report what they found in Syria. As of today there is still no report.

https://thinkprogress.org/members-of-congress-support-ban-syrian-refug
ees-and-april-2018-airstrikes-39b84eca2cd2
/

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Friday, April 20, 2018 11:00 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:

I just noticed I missed the byline underneath the sub-title of the article you linked where the author calls himself a "Opinion Contributor".

Sure, but I think you miss the point of me posting that article. Kiki asked why Assad would be gassing his own people. Any answer to that is going to be 'opinion', I think you'll find. I answered with an article giving one theory, I can think of a few more.

The point is there are explanations for it, that make some sense. Much more sense than the rebels gassing themselves* dozens of times to 'frame Assad', and the UN, OPCW etc. going along with it.



Well, sure. Any answer to the entire situation is going to be opinion and speculation because none of us know what happened, let alone the true motivations behind it.

I understand the point of why you posted the article. It is because you've already made up your mind that Assad did it. Like it or not, at this point that is only an opinion. And, judging by the current Administration's actions, it's one that Trump believes to be true as well, or at least he's doing a fine job in maintaining the status quo that I thought I was voting against.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Saturday, April 21, 2018 6:31 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

*Yes, kiki, rebels have been victims of these attacks as well as civilians - check your own HRW link
But many, many times, the rebels are NOT victims of chemicals attacks. They seem to be uniquely spared. What do you make of those instances?



your argument is a logical fallacy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasty_generalization
Hasty generalization
Hasty generalization is an informal fallacy of faulty generalization by reaching an inductive generalization based on insufficient evidence—essentially making a rushed conclusion without considering all of the variables. In statistics, it may involve basing broad conclusions regarding the statistics of a survey from a small sample group that fails to sufficiently represent an entire population.




So anyway ... anyone up for a rational, fact-based, and civil discussion about the topic?

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Sunday, April 22, 2018 7:15 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-04-21/germanys-largest-public-tv-n
ews-broadcaster-syria-chemical-attack-most-likely





So anyway ... anyone up for a rational, fact-based, and civil discussion about the topic?

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Sunday, April 22, 2018 9:05 PM

JJ

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Sunday, April 22, 2018 9:31 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Do you dispute any of the specifics in the story?

Or are you completely fused to propagandist statements?




So anyway ... anyone up for a rational, fact-based, and civil discussion about the topic?

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Sunday, April 22, 2018 10:53 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-04-22/beware-white-helmets-bearing
-news





So anyway ... anyone up for a rational, fact-based, and civil discussion about the topic?

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Sunday, April 22, 2018 11:18 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.



https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-04-21/opcw-chemical-inspection-tea
m-reaches-douma-after-issuing-statement-negating-russia


In an official statement posted to its website, the OPCW confirmed the following:


https://www.opcw.org/news/article/opcw-fact-finding-mission-team-visit
s-douma-syria/?utm_source=hootsuite

The Fact-Finding Mission (FFM) team of the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) visited one of the sites in Douma, Syrian Arab Republic today to collect samples for analysis in connection with allegations of chemical weapons use on 7 April 2018. The OPCW will evaluate the situation and consider future steps including another possible visit to Douma.

...
However, in spite of multiple international headlines, Western leaders, and journalists who reside far outside of Syria claiming a chemical cover-up conspiracy in the making, the OPCW in official statements confirmed that they were prevented from visiting Douma not by Syrian or Russian authorities, but by United Nations Department of Safety and Security (UNDSS), which has the final say over OPCW movements within Syria.

On Wednesday (April 18) the Director General of the OPCW Ahmet Üzümcü, issued a statement which proved the "Syria/Russia hiding evidence" theory false:


https://www.opcw.org/news/article/media-alert-update-on-the-deployment
-of-the-opcw-fact-finding-mission-to-douma-syria
/
On 16 April, we received confirmation from the National Authority of the Syrian Arab Republic that, under agreements reached to allow the evacuation of the population in Ghouta, the Syrian military were unable to enter Douma. The security for the sites where the FFM plans to deploy was under the control of the Russian Military Police. The United Nations Department of Safety and Security (UNDSS) has made the necessary arrangements with the Syrian authorities to escort the team to a certain point and then for the escort to be taken over by the Russian Military Police. However, the UNDSS preferred to first conduct a reconnaissance visit to the sites, which took place yesterday. FFM team members did not participate in this visit.

On arrival at Site 1, a large crowd gathered and the advice provided by the UNDSS was that the reconnaissance team should withdraw. At Site 2, the team came under small arms fire and an explosive was detonated. The reconnaissance team returned to Damascus.
Though the OPCW statement further acknowledged the area to be a "highly volatile environment" fraught with "security risks" - a number of journalists actually made it into Douma early in the week prior to the OPCW team's arrival.

Some among this early group of journalists which gained entry to the site, such as the UK Independent's Robert Fisk and One America News Network's Pearson Sharp found no evidence that a chemical attack took place in Douma, contrary to what's been widely reported in international media.




So anyway ... anyone up for a rational, fact-based, and civil discussion about the topic?

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Saturday, May 12, 2018 3:09 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


May 4, 2018 / 1:18

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-mideast-crisis-syria-chemicalweapons
/chemical-weapons-inspectors-back-from-syrias-douma-source-idUKKBN1I51JG


Chemical weapons inspectors back from Syria's Douma - source
Anthony Deutsch


AMSTERDAM (Reuters) - Chemical weapons inspectors have returned from a mission to the Syrian town of Douma, where they took samples and interviewed witnesses to determine whether banned munitions were used in an attack last month, a diplomatic source said on Friday.

A team of experts from the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons returned to the Netherlands on Thursday night after going to Damascus on April 14, the source said on condition of anonymity.

The suspected chemical attack prompted missile strikes by the United States, France and Britain on April 13 against several alleged chemical weapons facilities in Syria.

The OPCW is investigating the deaths of dozens of people in Douma, an enclave in Ghouta on the oustskrts of the Syrian capital, on April 7.

The United States and its allies say they were caused by chemical weapons, possibly a nerve agent, used by forces of the Russian-back government of President Bashar al-Assad.

Inspectors visited two sites of alleged attacks and took samples, which will be split at their laboratory in the Netherlands before being forwarded to affiliated national labs for testing. Test results are typically returned within three to four weeks. The OPCW will not assign blame.

The inspectors were also expected to have taken samples from canisters found at the scene that are believed to have contained toxic agents dropped from airplanes or helicopters.

Britain, the United States, France, Germany and others, said in a statement that all material gathered so far supported their theory that chemical weapons were used in Douma. Oddly enough, they all concluded that chemical weapons were used before testing was completed.

The information gathered to date is “unassailable,” they said at the time. Medical NGOs having found traces of chemical agents and authenticated photo and video evidence reinforces the theory of gas intoxication by hundreds of victims. It's unclear who to attribute the second sentence to. But it appears to be made without evidence, since testing isn't completed.

The World Health Organization has also expressed concern “at reports from its partners of patients exhibiting signs and symptoms consistent with exposure to toxic chemicals.” There's no indication who uttered this fraction of a sentence. But digging through google, the quote was found in a joint statement issued by Joint Statement by Australia, Bulgaria, Canada, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, France, Germany, Iceland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, the Netherlands, Poland, Slovakia, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America. In it these countries claimed to be speaking for WHO, without link or reference to WHO's actual statements. https://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/en/country-files/syria/events/article/s
yria-opcw-joint-statement-26-04-18







SECOND is a troll because it constantly misrepresents what people post, fails to address their actual positions, and resorts to personal attacks when its brain isn't working (which is most of the time).

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Saturday, July 7, 2018 1:56 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


The OPCW did NOT find nerve agents or mustard gas in Douma. It found chlorinated organic materials of currently unknown significance.

The rumors coming out of Douma that there was some kind of nerve agent attack - rumors which were widely disseminated by the msm as fact - were used at the time as an excuse to attack Syrian forces and escalate both the overall conflict and Israel's number of active attacks on Syria.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=61551
Trump launches missiles against Syria

This report, which came out Friday exonerates Assad from traditional chemical attacks and was NOT picked up by the latimes cnn, nytimes, wapo, fox, or the bbc. A Reuters article “Chemical weapons agency finds 'chlorinated' chemicals in Syria's Douma” did not at all mention the absence of traditional chemical weapons like Sarin, VX, or mustard gas.

NOR WAS THIS REPORT PICKED UP ON SATURDAY, when there was plenty of time for 'news' services to fit it into their reporting.

The link to the OPCW report, that exonerates Assad from the use of traditional chemical weapons at Douma, is below.

https://www.opcw.org/news/article/opcw-issues-fact-finding-mission-rep
orts-on-chemical-weapons-use-allegations-in-douma-syria-in-2018-and-in-al-hamadaniya-and-karm-al-tarrab-in-2016
/ Friday, 06 July 2018





SECOND is a troll because it constantly misrepresents what people post, fails to address their actual positions, and resorts to personal attacks when its brain isn't working (which is most of the time).

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Saturday, July 7, 2018 3:32 PM

JJ


Chemical weapons: Are we detecting a pattern yet?

Yep, the russians did it.

T


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Saturday, July 7, 2018 3:51 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.




Quote:

"No Nerve Agents" In Douma: OPCW Report Demolishes White House Sarin Narrative
Profile picture for user Tyler Durden


A preliminary report published Friday by the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) found no traces of any nerve agent at the site of a suspected chemical attack in the Syrian city of Douma. The OPCW report states this unambiguously as follows:

"No organophosphorous nerve agents or their degradation products were detected in the environmental samples or in the plasma samples taken from alleged casualties."

Compare the newly published official OPCW findings with the 5-page White House assessment released on April 13th, just days after the alleged attack. Now contradicted by the new OPCW findings, the White House asserted that sarin was used at Douma,

A significant body of information points to the regime using chlorine in its bombardment of Duma, while some additional information points to the regime also using the nerve agent sarin.

Yes, a real headline: CNN screenshot of coverage of the alleged chemical attack in April 2018 which we discussed here.



Firebrand British MP George Galloway responded as follows moments after the OPCW's findings were made public:

Was that, was that the news? What about Douma? The chemical weapons attack? The nerve agent bombs that rained down on Douma that took us to the brink of World War 3?

The OPCW have just reported, well two hours ago... There was no nerve gas attack on Douma. There was no nerve agent deployed on Douma. We were taken to World War 3’s brink on a crock. A crock of vile propaganda.


Ring any bells? No Nerve Agents, Concludes OPCW Report

The April 7th alleged chemical attack, widely blamed by Western countries and the media on Assad's forces, resulted in massive US-led retaliatory airstrikes mostly concentrated on suspected chemical production facilities in Damascus.

Though at the time both UN and OPCW officials urged caution in the rush to blame "animal Assad" for "using nerve agents" as many world headlines breathlessly concluded a mere moments after videos purporting to show scores of chemical attack victims first surfaced (and though CW experts themselves warned that not a single neutral observer was on the ground to verify such claims when it happened), the latest OPCW report flatly contradicts the narrative that quickly solidified in the mainstream.

MORE AT https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-07-07/no-nerve-agents-douma-opcw-r
eport-demolishes-white-house-sarin-narrative


Here is the OPCW article linked by Zerohedge. I've provided the item for those who're too stupid or too lazy to follow a simple link

Quote:

OPCW Issues Fact-Finding Mission Reports on Chemical Weapons Use Allegations in Douma, Syria in 2018 and in Al-Hamadaniya and Karm Al-Tarrab in 2016
Friday, 06 July 2018

.... The results show that no organophosphorous nerve agents or their degradation products were detected in the environmental samples or in the plasma samples taken from alleged casualties. Along with explosive residues, various chlorinated organic chemicals were found in samples from two sites, for which there is full chain of custody. Work by the team to establish the significance of these results is on-going. The FFM team will continue its work to draw final conclusions.

The Fact-Finding Mission also issued a report on 2 July 2018 addressing allegations of chemical weapons use in Al-Hamadaniya, Syria on 30 October 2016, and Karm al-Tarrab, Syria on 13 November 2016. On the basis of the information received and analysed, the prevailing narrative of the interviews, and the results of the laboratory analyses, the FFM cannot confidently determine whether or not a specific chemical was used as a weapon in the incidents that took place in the neighbourhood of Al-Hamadaniyah and in the area of Karm al-Tarrab. The FFM noted that the persons affected in the reported incidents may, in some instances, have been exposed to some type of non-persistent, irritating substance.


https://www.opcw.org/news/article/opcw-issues-fact-finding-mission-rep
orts-on-chemical-weapons-use-allegations-in-douma-syria-in-2018-and-in-al-hamadaniya-and-karm-al-tarrab-in-2016
/


-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

As long as you insist that everything is the Republicans'/ Democrats' fault, then you fail to grasp the REAL problem with American politics.

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Sunday, July 8, 2018 3:20 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


There's ONE pattern that I'm detecting: THUGR is an idiot.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

As long as you insist that everything is the Republicans'/ Democrats' fault, then you fail to grasp the REAL problem with American politics.

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Sunday, July 8, 2018 7:11 AM

CAPTAINCRUNCH

... stay crunchy...


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
There's ONE pattern that I'm detecting: THUGR is an idiot.



I noticed:
1. That's an obvious fake CNN screen shot
2. SIGHEIL is ramping up her chaos propaganda machine largely by just reposting ZeroSludge here.

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Sunday, July 8, 2018 8:01 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.



Quote:

Originally posted by captaincrunch:
I noticed:
1. That's an obvious fake CNN screen shot

Where is it? Or do you mean this:

?
Quote:


2. SIGHEIL is ramping up her chaos propaganda machine largely by just reposting ZeroSludge here.

And the source of the report itself - the OPCW.




SECOND is a troll because it constantly misrepresents what people post, fails to address their actual positions, and resorts to personal attacks when its brain isn't working (which is most of the time).


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Sunday, July 8, 2018 8:14 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Meanwhile, let's review how wrong you and your 'sources' were:

Quote:

Originally posted by captaincrunch:
Yes, Russia is that stupid. Too often people look for or assume that behind such things there's some Deep Logic or Great Cunning, when it's more likely a Confederacy of Dunces at work.

Quote:

Originally posted by captaincrunch:
I really need to get into the AltMedia biz - since everything can be explained pretty convincingly as a "false flag" you don't have to have studied journalism, or care about professional integrity, which makes the business model pretty bullet proof. Plus, we've seen that many people never seem to get passed their child mind fear of there being a Boogey Man under their bed or a Balrog in the wood pile, or a pedophile in the pizza shop, so sowing doubt and fear is so very easy. < / truthy snark >

Quote:

Originally posted by captaincrunch:
The "Syrian Rebels" have according to Russia and her defenders, gassed themselves how many times, because why? So they can have the US/UK/France drop a few bombs on... chemical weapons plants? And they based this most recent self-gassing on an event that happened a year ago, when they gassed themselves which produced... a limp wristed slap on an abandoned air field. Makes zero sense.

Quote:

Originally posted by captaincrunch:
So Douma is where the Rebels are and where the chemical attack happened... It's like a puzzle with 2 pieces. Let's see if you can put them together.

Quote:

Originally posted by captaincrunch:
For the last 7 years they've been "winning."
You can't seriously be looking for common sense or logic in what drives the Medusa that is the Middle East, can you?
So, how would one go about counting Rebel dead anyway? From Assad's pov the number has to be zero or else he admits to using chemical weapons. From the Rebels pov would they want to claim any? Who would count that and confirm it? Perhaps you have evidence of "only civilians dead."
And what's with bringing back years old, 'made the headlines in the US" ISIL terrorist acts? Is that the new line to win over US "news" consumers? I thought Trump said we were done with them anyway, threat over? And finally: is cutting someone's head off with a dull knife somehow worse than using a sharp one? What's up with you and Siggy specifically repeating that odd descriptor?

Quote:

Originally posted by captaincrunch:
https://ahvalnews.com/syria/trumps-bombing-campaign-syria-exactly-what
-putin-and-assad-wanted

Trump’s Bombing Campaign In Syria Is Exactly What Putin And Assad Wanted
By James Miller
The world looked on in horror nearly this month as videos emerged from the Damascus suburb of Douma showing what many experts suspected was yet another chemical weapons attack against civilians. As many as 70 people may have been killed in this latest incident , though questions remain because Russia has blocked experts from The Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) from entering the site for more than three days, creating a fear of a cover up.






SECOND is a troll because it constantly misrepresents what people post, fails to address their actual positions, and resorts to personal attacks when its brain isn't working (which is most of the time).

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Sunday, July 8, 2018 8:38 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


SECOND, KPO - care to chime in? CC and THUGGER have already taken their trollish best shots. Yanno, when you can't dispute the facts, be an asshole.




SECOND is a troll because it constantly misrepresents what people post, fails to address their actual positions, and resorts to personal attacks when its brain isn't working (which is most of the time).

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Friday, July 20, 2018 8:45 AM

THG


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:

SECOND, KPO - care to chime in? CC and THUGGER have already taken their trollish best shots. Yanno, when you can't dispute the facts, be an asshole.



Well golly gee. Looks like we, SECOND, KPO, G and I were right.The Russians did it.


Police ID'd Russians for Skripal poisonings: British media

http://www.cbc.ca/news/thenational/national-today-newsletter-uk-poison
ing-russia-novichock-1.4752296


T



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