REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Porton Down Scientists Under Extreme Pressure To Confirm Nerve Gas As Russian

POSTED BY: 1KIKI
UPDATED: Thursday, October 4, 2018 09:32
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Friday, March 30, 2018 5:47 PM

KPO

Anti-Russia before it was cool.


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
It is highly unlikely that a mass spectral library acquired on old Soviet instruments would be useful in a modern lab.


Uh huh. I smell bullshit. First of all, where's this link stating that the West has published the mass spectral libraries of the Novichoks?

Quote:


Oh, you mean that the people who were burned in the Trades Union building in Odessa, and the clashes that preceded them, were fanatstical?


Sig, just to remind you, we're arguing over who started a war, and I've just argued it was the little green men storming police stations in April 2014. Why respond with an incident that A) The Kiev government had no role in and B) happened in May 2014?

Quote:

That neo-Nazis were not incorporated into government security forces, as announced by the Kiev government?

Here's the full list of the provisional government, please point out the "Neo-nazis" in the "government security forces". - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Yatsenyuk_government

Name them please.

Quote:


That people pulled off buses and beaten up by neo-Nazis didn't happen?


Was this off the RT propaganda video you shared at the time? And what has it got to do with your claim that Kiev started the war?

Quote:

the Kiev regime didn't make an abortive attempt to outlaw the Russian language?

Lol. I don't think even RT claimed that. And even this false claim is not evidence that Kiev started the war.

Quote:


What are you saying, KPO? That all of these internationally well-documented events were somehow fake?




Fake. Propaganda-hyped. Irrelevant.

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Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
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Sunday, April 1, 2018 1:34 PM

KPO

Anti-Russia before it was cool.


Bump

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Sunday, April 1, 2018 1:57 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
It is highly unlikely that a mass spectral library acquired on old Soviet instruments would be useful in a modern lab.

Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Uh huh. I smell bullshit.

It IS true that a mass spectrum from an old Soviet instrument wouldn't give equivalent results. The technique is very technology-sensitive - from how you introduce the item in question at the start of the analysis, to detection at the end - type of ionization, mass-separation technology, detector type.
Quote:

First of all, where's this link stating that the West has published the mass spectral libraries of the Novichoks?
it was just a wikilink away - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novichok_agent#cite_note-spectroscopynow
-20170101-13
Hosseini SE, Saeidian H, Amozadeh A, Naseri MT, Babri M (5 October 2016). "Fragmentation pathways and structural characterization of organophosphorus compounds related to the Chemical Weapons Convention by electron ionization and electrospray ionization tandem mass spectrometry". Rapid




So anyway ... anyone up for a rational, fact-based, and civil discussion about the topic?

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Sunday, April 1, 2018 2:09 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
It is highly unlikely that a mass spectral library acquired on old Soviet instruments would be useful in a modern lab.


Uh huh. I smell bullshit. First of all, where's this link stating that the West has published the mass spectral libraries of the Novichoks?

Quote:


Oh, you mean that the people who were burned in the Trades Union building in Odessa, and the clashes that preceded them, were fanatstical?


Sig, just to remind you, we're arguing over who started a war, and I've just argued it was the little green men storming police stations in April 2014. Why respond with an incident that A) The Kiev government had no role in and B) happened in May 2014?

Quote:

That neo-Nazis were not incorporated into government security forces, as announced by the Kiev government?

Here's the full list of the provisional government, please point out the "Neo-nazis" in the "government security forces". - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Yatsenyuk_government

Name them please.

Quote:


That people pulled off buses and beaten up by neo-Nazis didn't happen?


Was this off the RT propaganda video you shared at the time? And what has it got to do with your claim that Kiev started the war?

Quote:

the Kiev regime didn't make an abortive attempt to outlaw the Russian language?

Lol. I don't think even RT claimed that. And even this false claim is not evidence that Kiev started the war.

Quote:


What are you saying, KPO? That all of these internationally well-documented events were somehow fake?




Fake. Propaganda-hyped. Irrelevant.

-------------------------------------------------------

"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."

Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Syrian regime collusion with ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521





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Sunday, April 1, 2018 2:23 PM

KPO

Anti-Russia before it was cool.


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Quote:

First of all, where's this link stating that the West has published the mass spectral libraries of the Novichoks?
it was just a wikilink away - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novichok_agent#cite_note-spectroscopynow
-20170101-13
Hosseini SE, Saeidian H, Amozadeh A, Naseri MT, Babri M (5 October 2016). "Fragmentation pathways and structural characterization of organophosphorus compounds related to the Chemical Weapons Convention by electron ionization and electrospray ionization tandem mass spectrometry". Rapid


Thanks kiki!

From the article:
Quote:

The Iranian researchers synthesised five ‘Novichok’ agents, along with four deuterated analogues. They were all O-alkyl N-[bis(dimethylamino)methylidene]-P-methylphosphonamidate compounds (i.e. molecules with the typical nerve agent phosphorus group coupled to N,N,N’N’-tetramethylguanidine). The O-alkyl group was varied, with the methoxy, ethoxy, isopropoxy, phenoxy, and 2,6-dimethylphenoxy derivatives being prepared. The syntheses were carried out on a micro-scale in order to minimize exposure.

...

The authors succeeded in synthesising and obtaining detailed mass spectral data on a series of unusual nerve agents. The data have been added to the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons’ Central Analytical Database (OCAD). It is important that such databases are as comprehensive as possible so that unusual chemical weapons can be unambiguously detected.


Over to you, Sig. Exactly what is your point about this international publishing of Novichok mass spectral data?

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"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."

Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Syrian regime collusion with ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521


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Sunday, April 1, 2018 2:32 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


From the actual wikipage previously linked
Quote:

In 2016, Iranian chemists synthesised five Novichok agents for analysis and produced detailed mass spectral data which was added to the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons Central Analytical Database.
Quote:

The Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons is an intergovernmental organisation and the implementing body for the Chemical Weapons Convention, which entered into force on 29 April 1997. Wikipedia Headquarters: The Hague, Netherlands
I think you'll agree that The Hague is in 'the West', so that, in sum, this information was published in the West.

Do you agree?

ETA: Government labs around the world could already have secretly synthesized, modified, and characterized various Novichoks, legitimizing their work by claiming it's in the service of finding antidotes. But that work wouldn't be openly published.




So anyway ... anyone up for a rational, fact-based, and civil discussion about the topic?

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Sunday, April 1, 2018 4:51 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

It is highly unlikely that a mass spectral library acquired on old Soviet instruments would be useful in a modern lab. - SIGNY
Uh huh. I smell bullshit. First of all, where's this link stating that the West has published the mass spectral libraries of the Novichoks?- KRAPO

The shit you're smelling must be your own. I subsequently posted a report of these chemicals having been SYNTHESIZED and ANALYZED by Iran, and REPORTED TO, AND IN THE WEST. Clearly, the ability to synthesize and identify these chemicals was not EXCLUSIVE to the Soviet Union.

Also, how were the victims treated? Did they use an antidote? If so, how did they know which one to use? If so, how did they even have the correct on at hand?

Obviously, you don't know anything about mass spectral analysis, and I'm sure not going to take the time to educate you.

Quote:

Oh, you mean that the people who were burned in the Trades Union building in Odessa, and the clashes that preceded them, were fantastical? - SIGNY
Sig, just to remind you, we're arguing over who started a war, and I've just argued it was the little green men storming police stations in April 2014. Why respond with an incident that A) The Kiev government had no role in and B) happened in May 2014? - KRAPO

This will take more time than I have to answer, especially if you insist on remaining in denial about the role of neo-Nazis on the Kiev regime. Maybe later.

Quote:

That neo-Nazis were not incorporated into government security forces, as announced by the Kiev government? SIGNY
Here's the full list of the provisional government, please point out the "Neo-nazis" in the "government security forces". - https://en.wikipedia.org - KRAPO

Are you saying that they would have CALLED themselves "neo-Nazis"? Again, this will take more time than I have right now, especially if you remain in denial about the role of neo-Nazis in the Kiev regime.

Quote:

That people pulled off buses and beaten up by neo-Nazis didn't happen?- SIGNY

Was this off the RT propaganda video you shared at the time? And what has it got to do with your claim that Kiev started the war?- KRAPO

Again, will take more time than I have, the video is evidence of what happened, and it was viewable in many places. Funny, how you believe s snippet of a vid if it tells you what you want to hear, then deny its validity if there's info that you don't want to know. But if you want to know who "started" the war, it was whoever paid the snipers to kill people in the Maidan, and that was neither Yanukovich nor the Russians.

Quote:

the Kiev regime didn't make an abortive attempt to outlaw the Russian language?- SIGNY
Lol. I don't think even RT claimed that. And even this false claim is not evidence that Kiev started the war.- KRAPO

Actually, we discussed it at the time, and IIRC YOUR response to that was that the proposal was abandoned, not that it never occurred. I dunno, maybe you did a memory wipe on yourself?

Quote:

What are you saying, KPO? That all of these internationally well-documented events were somehow fake?- SIGNY
- KRAPO



Yes, that what you're saying: You're in complete denial of things that were reported even in the BBC.


AND FINALLY - What ARE the differences between Kosovo and Crimea? You DO seem to be dodging that question!

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Sunday, April 1, 2018 6:00 PM

KPO

Anti-Russia before it was cool.


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

It is highly unlikely that a mass spectral library acquired on old Soviet instruments would be useful in a modern lab. - SIGNY
Uh huh. I smell bullshit. First of all, where's this link stating that the West has published the mass spectral libraries of the Novichoks?- KRAPO

The shit you're smelling must be your own. I subsequently posted a report of these chemicals having been SYNTHESIZED and ANALYZED by Iran


Hmm, don't you mean 1kiki posted this report?

-------------------------------------------------------

"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."

Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Syrian regime collusion with ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521


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Sunday, April 1, 2018 6:28 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

It is highly unlikely that a mass spectral library acquired on old Soviet instruments would be useful in a modern lab. - SIGNY

Uh huh. I smell bullshit. First of all, where's this link stating that the West has published the mass spectral libraries of the Novichoks?- KRAPO

The shit you're smelling must be your own. I subsequently posted a report of these chemicals having been SYNTHESIZED and ANALYZED by Iran- SIGNY

Hmm, don't you mean 1kiki posted this report?- KRAPO



No, this is what I posted on the topic, see previous page

Quote:

Novichok was originally developed in the USSR (Nukus Lab, today in Uzbekistan, site completely decommissioned according to the US-Uzbekistan agreement by 2002). One of its key developers, Vil Mirzayanov, defected to the United States in 1990s, its chemical formula and technology were openly published in a number of chemical journals outside Russia. Former top-ranking British foreign service officer Craig Murray specifically noted this point on March 17:

I have now been sent the vital information that in late 2016, Iranian scientists set out to study whether novichoks really could be produced from commercially available ingredients. Iran succeeded in synthesising a number of novichoks. Iran did this in full cooperation with the OPCW and immediately reported the results to the OPCW so they could be added to the chemical weapons database.




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Sunday, April 1, 2018 6:56 PM

THGRRI


This is very simple. The Russians did it.


T

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Sunday, April 1, 2018 7:18 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

This is I'm very simple. The Russians did it.- THUGR
Oh, and BTW- Heil Hitler!



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Monday, April 2, 2018 6:02 AM

KPO

Anti-Russia before it was cool.


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
No, this is what I posted on the topic, see previous page


Ah, very good, I missed that earlier.

So, what's your point exactly? Iran synthesised micro quantities of Novichok compounds and shared the mass spectral data with the OPCW. Kiki seems to be adding that this data was then published in the West.

So thanks to this data, any Western country should be able to identify Novichoks when they've been used?

That's great. Thanks Iran. But what's your point?

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"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."

Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Syrian regime collusion with ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521


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Monday, April 2, 2018 6:33 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
So, what's your point exactly? Iran synthesised micro quantities of Novichok compounds and shared the mass spectral data with the OPCW. Kiki seems to be adding that this data was then published in the West.

So thanks to this data, any Western country should be able to identify Novichoks when they've been used?

That's great. Thanks Iran. But what's your point?

Hmmm ... what COULD the point be .... maybe it's that they synthesized actual Novichoks. That once you work out the synthesis steps - helpfully documented by Russia in their theoretical speculation - if you can synthesize small quantities, you can synthesize large quantities. And that if you can synthesize Novichoks in large quantities, you are then also rendered capable of deploying them.

And that means that 'the west' officially and publicly now has the capability of using Novichoks.

And that means that reports that said Novichoks were exclusive to Russia were - wrong. Or perhaps lies.




So anyway ... anyone up for a rational, fact-based, and civil discussion about the topic?

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Monday, April 2, 2018 8:27 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Also, if it's that crazy-toxic, you only need micro amounts. Even if you're stuck with working with low-yield bench-level amounts (as opposed to pilot plant and production amounts) you could probably scrape enough together to kill someone.

The OTHER thing I find puzzling is the constantly-changing story about WHERE these people were poisoned.

It was on a park bench!
No, it was vehicle air vents!
No, it was at their front door!

I think I've heard five or six versions about that, each one sounding very definitive. By the third time around, I figure they're just making it up as they go along.

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Monday, April 2, 2018 10:32 PM

THGRRI


Yeah OK good. Except Russia did it.


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Tuesday, April 3, 2018 1:34 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


What a sad little nazi.
Heil Hitler!



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Tuesday, April 3, 2018 10:56 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


So, back to the original topic:

It seems to me that most of what the UK government alleges simply isn't born out by evidence. Not only are "Novichoks" NOT an exclusive product of the former Soviet Union, but I still fail to see Russia's interest in stirring up a hornet's next by poisoning a has-been spy.

People have advanced theories of

To show us that Russia has Novichok poisons but ... didn't we assume that already?
To sow disunity in the west but ... hasn't the opposite occurred?
By mistake but ... wouldn't Russia have predicted this response based on the past several YEARS of coordinated sanctions and diplomat-expulsions?

Also, the information coming out (for example, the multiple alleged locations of the poisoning) is contradictory, and Britain is STILL not following the investigative norms of the international organization which controls and monitors chemical weapons OPCW

This poisoning fits into the deep state's anti-Russian narrative quite nicely. It COULD HAVE been a very adroit head-fake by Russia, but could have equally been a false flag engineered by the UK, USA, or any of the other western states which have an interest in whipping up anti-Russian hysteria.

BTW, I'm just going to leave this hint here that there is a very interesting train of questions that nobody has yet picked up on, and the letter of the topic begins with "i".

If it's still relevant, I'll post in in a few months.

Just saying.

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Tuesday, April 3, 2018 12:54 PM

KPO

Anti-Russia before it was cool.


Quote:

Originally posted by 1KIKI:
Hmmm ... what COULD the point be .... maybe it's that they synthesized actual Novichoks. That once you work out the synthesis steps - helpfully documented by Russia in their theoretical speculation - if you can synthesize small quantities, you can synthesize large quantities. And that if you can synthesize Novichoks in large quantities, you are then also rendered capable of deploying them.


You two are very silly women. THIS is your whole point? That other countries are theoretically capable of making Novichoks? Didn't we establish this at the very beginning? Yes, here's me early in the thread:

Quote:

KPO: Russia is the only country that has had a Novichok program that we know about, but there could, in theory, be others. Yes, I don't think anyone has made a secret of that.

KPO: Yawn. Already addressed this. Yes, theoretically another country could've developed its own Novichok program...



And yet you two are finding new ways to hammer the same tired point. "Other countries are also capable of making Novichoks!" Well, duh. If the Soviet Union could do it in the 1980s, just about any country is technically capable of doing it today.

But that doesn't mean that they have. And it certainly doesn't mean that they would USE THEM - on British soil - on an old Russian spy who worked for Britain.

You two are showing yet again that all you can do is regurgitate propaganda talking points. When someone deviates from your script - like actually agreeing with one of your points - you just repeat your arguments again and again anyway.

You are throwing arguments at strawmen.

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"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."

Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Syrian regime collusion with ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521


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Tuesday, April 3, 2018 1:03 PM

THGRRI


Again comrade sig. Russia did it. You've posted nothing as far as evidence goes that shows they didn't.


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Tuesday, April 3, 2018 2:45 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Hmmm ... what COULD the point be .... maybe it's that they synthesized actual Novichoks. That once you work out the synthesis steps - helpfully documented by Russia in their theoretical speculation - if you can synthesize small quantities, you can synthesize large quantities. And that if you can synthesize Novichoks in large quantities, you are then also rendered capable of deploying them.- KIKI

You two are very silly women. THIS is your whole point? That other countries are theoretically capable of making Novichoks? Didn't we establish this at the very beginning? Yes, here's me early in the thread:

Quote:

KPO: Russia is the only country that has had a Novichok program that we know about, but there could, in theory, be others. Yes, I don't think anyone has made a secret of that.

KPO: Yawn. Already addressed this. Yes, theoretically another country could've developed its own Novichok program... - KRAPO



And yet you two are finding new ways to hammer the same tired point. "Other countries are also capable of making Novichoks!" Well, duh. If the Soviet Union could do it in the 1980s, just about any country is technically capable of doing it today.

Not just "technically capable" but actually has synthesized them.

Quote:

But that doesn't mean that they have.
Well, yes, it means that at least one actually has
Quote:

And it certainly doesn't mean that they would USE THEM - on British soil - on an old Russian spy who worked for Britain.
So we come back to cui bono? [WHO BENEFITS?]

In any crime, there has to be means, motive, and opportunity.

We've established that the "means" is well within many 'state actor' capability. Even Porton Down lab agrees with that concept.

Quote:

Scientists from Porton Down have not been able to establish where the novichok nerve agent used to poison Sergei and Yulia Skripal was made. Gary Aitkenhead, chief executive of the Defence Science and Technology Laboratory (DSTL) at Porton Down, told Sky News they were not yet able to prove it was made in Russia.

He said: "We were able to identify it as novichok, to identify that it was military-grade nerve agent. We have not identified the precise source, but we have provided the scientific info to Government ... It is our job to provide the scientific evidence of what this particular nerve agent is, we identified that it is from this particular family and that it is a military grade, but it is not our job to say where it was manufactured. ... However, he confirmed the substance required "extremely sophisticated methods to create, something only in the capabilities of a state actor".



As far as "opportunity", Skripal and his daughter weren't being guarded, so this is where narrowing down WHERE the poison was applied makes a difference: only some people might have had the "opportunity" to bring the poison to the inside of their front door or to their car vents, for example, but a park bench is much more open. This is why government confusion/ misdirection on this topic is important to the investigation.

And then there is "motive". You have not been able to establish a reasonable motive for the Russian government to poison Skripal.

I'm not saying that a western government did the poisoning. Although some western nations would have motives in that direction, you're correct in saying that there's no evidence proving beyond a reasonable doubt that that's what happened.

OTOH, there's NO EVIDENCE POINTING TO RUSSIA EITHER which proves beyond a reasonable doubt that RUSSIA was the 'state actor' involved, and some evidence (not only lack of motive, but - one would think - very strong disincentives) against this kind of action.

So, there we are.

I think you should withhold judgment until definitive evidence is brought forward. That may mean that this evidence will NEVER be forthcoming, and it may be yet a case that is never resolved. But so far, all you're going on is hype and hysteria (and bad hype at that, given how many changes and equivocations the UK govt has issued).

*****

As far as I'm concerned, this is a dead issue until more evidence (You DO know the difference between evidence and accusation, correct?) is brought forward.

BTW, I'm still saying that you're missing an important question.

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Tuesday, April 3, 2018 3:08 PM

THGRRI


27 countries pledge to kick out Russian diplomats over poisoning of ex-spy


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Tuesday, April 3, 2018 5:14 PM

KPO

Anti-Russia before it was cool.


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:
But that doesn't mean that they have.
Well, yes, it means that at least one actually has


Ha, well I somehow doubt you are trying to cast suspicion for this crime on Iran. Unfortunately for you Sig, if you want to implicate the UK or the US or Israel, then you ARE talking about 'theoretical' Novichok programs.

Quote:

You have not been able to establish a reasonable motive for the Russian government to poison Skripal.

No motive for Russia doing this. Sig, you just embarrass yourself when you say things like this.



Sig trying to see how the USA or NATO is to blame for something:




Sig trying to see how Russia is to blame for something:



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"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."

Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
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Tuesday, April 3, 2018 11:39 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Back to cartoons again, KRAPO?

You still haven't come up with a relevant motivation for Russia to piss off the west. GSTRING thinks this was to (somehow) "destabilize" the west, altho the exact opposite seems to have occurred, and you seem to think that - despite years of sanctions and diplomat face-slapping- that Putin somehow made a mistake and couldn't predict the west's reaction.

That's pretty thin stuff, wouldn't you say? I don't care how many cartoons you post, all it does is emphasize that you don't have a realistic scenario to propose.

Like I said: Until more EVIDENCE comes forward (And no, that doesn't include your constant propagandizing) this is a closed topic, as far as I'm concerned.

And BTW, you're STILL missing an interesting question!


-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

America is an oligarchy
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Wednesday, April 4, 2018 2:00 PM

KPO

Anti-Russia before it was cool.


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Back to cartoons again, KPO?


They're my primary tool for laughing at you.

Quote:

Until more EVIDENCE comes forward (And no, that doesn't include your constant propagandizing)

Accuse me of what I've just accused you of, that's original.

Quote:

And BTW, you're STILL missing an interesting question!

There's plenty of interesting questions about this case. I'm not sure what kind of reasoned discussion one can have with someone whose whole approach is to defend Russia at all costs.

-------------------------------------------------------

"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."

Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Syrian regime collusion with ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521


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Wednesday, April 4, 2018 2:13 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Back to cartoons again, KPO?- SIGNY
They're my primary tool for laughing at you. -KRAPO

I guess that's what you do when you have nothing intelligent to say. I've seen it a lot from GOPers when they were defending GWB. It's revealing that you- a supposedly well-educated, intelligent, tolerant person of the liberal persuasion- would use cartoons as the tool of last resort, just like the reichwing does.

Quote:

Until more EVIDENCE comes forward (And no, that doesn't include your constant propagandizing)- SIGNY
Accuse me of what I've just accused you of, that's original.- KRAPO


Hey, I'm not the one pushing a conclusion based on equivocal evidence, like you are.

Quote:

And BTW, you're STILL missing an interesting question!SIGNY
There's plenty of interesting questions about this case. I'm not sure what kind of reasoned discussion one can have with someone whose whole approach is to defend Russia at all costs.- KRAPO

Who said it was a "defense" of Russia? Maybe it points TOWARDS Russia.

BTW what ARE the differences between Kosovo and Crimea? You can't seem to come up with any, just like you can't seem to come up with a rational motive for why Russia would - apparently- deliberately piss off the west.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

America is an oligarchy
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Thursday, April 5, 2018 12:54 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"Ha, well I somehow doubt you are trying to cast suspicion for this crime on Iran. Unfortunately for you Sig, if you want to implicate the UK or the US or Israel, then you ARE talking about 'theoretical' Novichok programs."

You seem to be confused between actual ability to synthesize Novichoks - which can be done in a small space with proper equipment; and 'programs' - which you seem to think require massive buildings with hundreds of people. The 'program' is the effort to work out the whats and hows. But once you have that, you don't need the 'program' to synthesize Novichoks, just the recipe, the ingredients, and the cookware, so to speak.





So anyway ... anyone up for a rational, fact-based, and civil discussion about the topic?

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Thursday, April 5, 2018 2:49 PM

KPO

Anti-Russia before it was cool.


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I've seen it a lot from GOPers when they were defending GWB. It's revealing that you- a supposedly well-educated, intelligent, tolerant person of the liberal persuasion- would use cartoons as the tool of last resort, just like the reichwing does.


You got me, closet Neocon here. Damn, busted by my use of memes!

Quote:


BTW what ARE the differences between Kosovo and Crimea?


You want to bring that up after you ran from the last thread? Wow, you have a short memory.

-------------------------------------------------------

"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."

Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Syrian regime collusion with ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521


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Thursday, April 5, 2018 2:56 PM

KPO

Anti-Russia before it was cool.


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
"Ha, well I somehow doubt you are trying to cast suspicion for this crime on Iran. Unfortunately for you Sig, if you want to implicate the UK or the US or Israel, then you ARE talking about 'theoretical' Novichok programs."

You seem to be confused between actual ability to synthesize Novichoks - which can be done in a small space with proper equipment; and 'programs' - which you seem to think require massive buildings with hundreds of people. The 'program' is the effort to work out the whats and hows. But once you have that, you don't need the 'program' to synthesize Novichoks, just the recipe, the ingredients, and the cookware, so to speak.


All of this rambling seems to be you taking issue with my use of the word 'program'. Like making, storing and weaponising Novichok compounds is so trivial that a couple of dudes in a government lab could do it one afternoon, and that would be the extent of the 'program'.

Well, you don't know what you're talking about. But thanks for weighing in.

-------------------------------------------------------

"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."

Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Syrian regime collusion with ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521


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Thursday, April 5, 2018 5:06 PM

CAPTAINCRUNCH

... stay crunchy...


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I've seen it a lot from GOPers when they were defending GWB. It's revealing that you- a supposedly well-educated, intelligent, tolerant person of the liberal persuasion- would use cartoons as the tool of last resort, just like the reichwing does.


You got me, closet Neocon here. Damn, busted by my use of memes!

Quote:


BTW what ARE the differences between Kosovo and Crimea?


You want to bring that up after you ran from the last thread? Wow, you have a short memory.

-------------------------------------------------------

"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."

Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Syrian regime collusion with ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521




It’s almost as if her/their main purpose is to agitate, lay down a searchable text trail of contrariness.

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Friday, April 6, 2018 1:14 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

I've seen it a lot from GOPers when they were defending GWB. It's revealing that you- a supposedly well-educated, intelligent, tolerant person of the liberal persuasion- would use cartoons as the tool of last resort, just like the reichwing does. - SIGNY

You got me, closet Neocon here. Damn, busted by my use of memes!- KPO

I'm glad you finally recognized that anyone who is constantly jonesing for war - like you do- is, by definition, a neocon.


Quote:

BTW what ARE the differences between Kosovo and Crimea? - SIGNY

You want to bring that up after you ran from the last thread? Wow, you have a short memory.- KRAPO

I don't recall ever "running" from any thread. I DID say that I'd have to get back to some posts later, because .... you might have noticed ... I'm not posting as much as I used to. Right now, I'm just really busy. So link that thread, or remind me three weeks from now, or so. Maybe I'll have more time then.


Quote:

It’s almost as if her/their main purpose is to agitate, lay down a searchable text trail of contrariness.- GSTRING
Huh?

-----------
Pity would be no more,
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America is an oligarchy
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Saturday, April 7, 2018 8:52 AM

KPO

Anti-Russia before it was cool.


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I'm glad you finally recognized that anyone who is constantly jonesing for war - like you do- is, by definition, a neocon.


What if I just cheerlead for Putin's wars, is that ok?

Quote:

I'm not posting as much as I used to. Right now, I'm just really busy.

Yeah, but this is also, famously, what you say when you get cornered in an argument. Like earlier in this thread when I challenged you on your assertions that Kiev started the war in Donbas:

SIGNY: "This will take more time than I have to answer..."
SIGNY: "Again, this will take more time than I have right now..."
SIGNY: "Again, will take more time than I have..."

The thing is, after running from these questions that you can't answer, you'll be back on these boards in a few months making the same bullshit claims.

Quote:

So link that thread

Yes, a case in point: http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=60199&p=2

You asked me then what were the differences between Kosovo and Crimea. My answer:

Quote:

In Kosovo we have:

1. Systematic war crimes - massacres, ethnic cleansing, etc
2. Carried out by government forces
3. Confirmed by UN reports, ICC rulings, etc.

In Crimea we have:

1. No war crimes committed by the Ukrainian government, ever. But some hype, manufactured scare stories and propaganda
2. Spread by Russia
3. Believed by idiots.



You weren't able to respond to this at all, and kiki tried to by doctoring my words and linking things that didn't say what she claimed, and then finally pivoting to the Iraq war


-------------------------------------------------------

"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."

Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Syrian regime collusion with ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521


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Saturday, April 7, 2018 10:32 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Real success for Russia comes at the moment when the listener suspends disbelief sufficiently to start to consider whether all they know to be real is in fact a lie -- and that Russia might have a point. Russia's suggestions that the British government might have carried out the attack in its own city make a classic case study.

Trying to murder residents of your own country to make a political point is a nasty habit that Britain grew out of several hundred years ago. So, the idea that the UK might be to blame for an attack of this kind is one that could only come from Russia, where murder in the interests of the state or its ruling elite still lies comfortably in the mainstream of political practice.

Nevertheless, the fact that this suggestion is now repeated not only by Russian trolls (and ambassadors and ministers) but also by real UK citizens represents a significant achievement for Russian disinformation.

The answer, as always, is to take Russian bluster for what it is: a desperate attempt to shift the blame once the realization has set in, as it did in the case of MH17, that Russia has made a serious mistake and earned not just the disapproval but the disgust of the civilized world.

Russia will continue to throw up wild accusations, nonsensical conspiracy theories, insults, and threats. But for most intelligent adults in the rest of the world, a swift reality check will be all that is needed to press the mental mute button on Moscow.

www.cnn.com/2018/04/06/opinions/why-russia-laugh-world-giles-opinion-i
ntl/index.html


The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Saturday, April 7, 2018 1:13 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
"Ha, well I somehow doubt you are trying to cast suspicion for this crime on Iran. Unfortunately for you Sig, if you want to implicate the UK or the US or Israel, then you ARE talking about 'theoretical' Novichok programs."

You seem to be confused between actual ability to synthesize Novichoks - which can be done in a small space with proper equipment; and 'programs' - which you seem to think require massive buildings with hundreds of people. The 'program' is the effort to work out the whats and hows. But once you have that, you don't need the 'program' to synthesize Novichoks, just the recipe, the ingredients, and the cookware, so to speak.

Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
All of this rambling seems to be you taking issue with my use of the word 'program'. Like making, storing and weaponising Novichok compounds is so trivial that a couple of dudes in a government lab could do it one afternoon, and that would be the extent of the 'program'.

Well, you don't know what you're talking about. But thanks for weighing in.

Thanks for misrepresenting what I posted. Again.

I clearly made the distinction between a 'program', which is the effort to work out the what and how, which requires a lot of science, and trail and error; and (potentially) creating an arsenal - and the actual synthesis, once the what and how have been completed.

The actual synthesis is trivial, once you have worked out the process you need. And to carry out this particular poisoning (assuming Novichoks were used, and that's in doubt) you don't need to make entire arsenals. You only need to make a few milligrams. That's about the amount in roughly 10 grains of table salt. An isolation hood, a lab bench, the precursors, are all that's needed.

Even a couple of Iranian research scientists could make 5 different Novichoks on a lab bench.




So anyway ... anyone up for a rational, fact-based, and civil discussion about the topic?

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Saturday, April 7, 2018 3:01 PM

KPO

Anti-Russia before it was cool.


And what does that have to do with what I said, that UK or US or Israeli secret Novichok programs are theoretically possible but pure speculation?

It's one of your many lovable foibles, 1kik, that when you have nothing else you attempt to quibble over some technicality.

Are you attempting to argue that a country other than Russia could have poisoned the Skripals with a Novichok, but that doesn't mean that they had a Novichok 'program'?

-------------------------------------------------------

"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."

Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Syrian regime collusion with ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521


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Saturday, April 7, 2018 6:37 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Your speculation about western government Novichok PROGRAMS is not my speculation.

At this point, with the synthesis all worked out, nobody needs a PROGRAM to synthesize milligram quantities. The synthesis of milligram quantities is now perfectly within the grasp of any government, WITHOUT an extant PROGRAM. I don't know how I could be any more clear.

If you repeat this argument, you're either seriously idiotic, or a troll. I'm voting troll.


And thanks for lying about my posts.

AGAIN.




So anyway ... anyone up for a rational, fact-based, and civil discussion about the topic?

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Saturday, April 7, 2018 11:49 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Real success for Russia comes at the moment when the listener suspends disbelief sufficiently to start to consider whether all they know to be real is in fact a lie --
Yanno, SECOND, that is an EXCELLENT place to start any train of thought: with no preconceptions. But. moving on ...

Quote:

Trying to murder residents of your own country to make a political point is a nasty habit that Britain grew out of several hundred years ago.
When was that? Had the UK grown out of murdering is residents to make a political point during The Troubles?

Quote:

So, the idea that the UK might be to blame for an attack of this kind is one that could only come from Russia, where murder in the interests of the state or its ruling elite still lies comfortably in the mainstream of political practice.
Oh baloney. The United States and NATO quite comfortably kill their own civilians for political purposes. How about Operation Gladio?



Also, this poisoning fits very nicely into the NATO narrative, not so well into the Russian agenda. (At least, nobody here has been able to explain how this meets Russian objectives).

Quote:

Nevertheless, the fact that this suggestion is now repeated not only by Russian trolls (and ambassadors and ministers) but also by real UK citizens represents a significant achievement for Russian disinformation.
Or maybe people are just waking up to the idea that their beloved leaders do, in fact, engage in false flag operations?

Quote:

The answer, as always, is to take Russian bluster for what it is: a desperate attempt to shift the blame once the realization has set in, as it did in the case of MH17, that Russia has made a serious mistake and earned not just the disapproval but the disgust of the civilized world.
Yes, the Russians did attempt to shift blame and propose a number of alternate scenarios. But that is why you have to rely on EVIDENCE, not prejudice, belief, and hysteria to sort out the truth. That's all I've ever advocated for: Not being stampeded by government propounded hysteria, but slowing down, and withholding judgment until more EVIDENCE comes to light.

Quote:

Russia will continue to throw up wild accusations, nonsensical conspiracy theories, insults, and threats.
AS WILL THE USA.

Saddam's WMD anyone??

Quote:

But for most intelligent adults in the rest of the world, a swift reality check will be all that is needed to press the mental mute button on Moscow.
And that is why you should be insisting on EVIDENCE, not claims, accusations, counter-claims and hysteria.

How could you have worked you way thru the Iraq WMD blitzkrieg of misinformation? Whatever procedure would have worked for that should help you work your way through other misinformation, which- let's face it- comes from both sides.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

America is an oligarchy
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Sunday, April 8, 2018 7:32 AM

KPO

Anti-Russia before it was cool.


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Oh baloney. The United States and NATO quite comfortably kill their own civilians for political purposes. How about Operation Gladio?



Another classic Signy line: "The West does this (whatever Russia is being accused of) ALL THE TIME. See this alleged example from 50 years ago..."

-------------------------------------------------------

"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."

Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Syrian regime collusion with ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521


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Sunday, April 8, 2018 9:43 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Well, Operation Gladio went on for DECADES before anyone wised up to what was happening. I wonder what people will be saying in 40 years time about today? It's not like there haven't been suspicious deaths here since then.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

America is an oligarchy
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Sunday, April 8, 2018 1:15 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Well, Operation Gladio went on for DECADES before anyone wised up to what was happening. I wonder what people will be saying in 40 years time about today? It's not like there haven't been suspicious deaths here since then.

Operation Gladio was to kill Russians that conquer Europe. The Europeans were not about to tell the Russians ahead of time where the hidden arms caches were located in Belgium, Denmark, France, Netherlands, etc. That would completely ruin the surprise death of Russian invaders!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Sunday, April 8, 2018 6:54 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


If I bother, I may post this is a new thread.

But I read an interesting potential reason for all the un-evidenced anti-Russia hysteria, swiftly followed by un-meritted economic punishment. (And you'll notice none of this involves the UN because, frankly, that didn't work out so well for little bush. You actually have to bring evidence in front of that body to make your case.) And it's not to bring down the Russian economy as a whole. Nope. It's to dwindle the fortunes of the Russian oligarchs specifically, and create a fifth column against Putin.

That makes sense of the endless and really stupid and silly claims about RUSSIA ! that sound like kindergärtners making up ghost stories.


Oh, and another thing I've noticed in our 'free' press. Every time they refer to the Syrian government, they call it a 'regime'. There's no mention of the fact that Assad was democratically elected, before the US decided to topple yet another democratic government. Nor do the papers mention the fact that the UN body still recognizes the government as the legitimate representative of the country.

But hey, let's not call our media 'propagandists' for endlessly calling the elected Syrian government a regime, or for repeatedly somehow failing to notice the lack actual evidence for the many claims made about RUSSIA ! . Because calling our media propagandists would just be rude.




So anyway ... anyone up for a rational, fact-based, and civil discussion about the topic?

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Sunday, April 8, 2018 10:53 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


SECOND: I take it that you didn't even other to read the synopsis of the 1992 BBC documentary, which has not (yet) been scrubbed for political correctness like Wikipedia has?

Quote:

This BBC series is about a far-right secret army, operated by the CIA and MI6 through NATO, which killed hundreds of innocent Europeans and attempted to blame the deaths on Baader Meinhof, Red Brigades and other left wing groups.
Really SECOND, you are SUCH an ASSiduous researcher when it comes to Trump Trivia. I mean, you just can't get enough of it! But when it comes to learning something fundamental about how our government works, but which might be unpleasant, you wimp out?

You probably think that you're deeply cynical and wise to the evils of our government, but you're just a naive child.

The documentary is very slow, but if you want to race thru to the bombings etc conducted by Gladio, jump ahead to about 49 minutes.



-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

America is an oligarchy
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Saturday, May 12, 2018 2:46 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


http://www.atimes.com/article/russia-exposes-british-lies-skripal-trai
l-leads-us
/

he sensational case of the poisoning of the ex-MI6 agent and former Russian military intelligence colonel, Sergei Skripal on March 4 in Salisbury, UK, is becoming curiouser and curiouser. Moscow is strongly refuting British allegations of Russian involvement in the poisoning of Skripal. An engrossing plot in big-power politics is also unfolding. There is stuff here for a Le Carre novel.

Are we witnessing a replay of the false flag Gulf of Tonkin attack of August 1964, the imaginary “incident” concocted by the US military to provide legal and political justification for deploying American forces in South Vietnam and for commencing open warfare against North Vietnam?

To recap, Britain alleged a military grade nerve agent of a type known as Novichok was used in Salisbury. It was originally developed in the former Soviet Union, and, therefore, Moscow’s hand – possibly, even President Vladimir Putin’s hand – was “highly likely”.

Moscow has maintained, on the other hand, that it had destroyed all its chemical weapons and said the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) investigation verified this.

The British allegation quickly morphed into a large-scale expulsion of Russian diplomats (over 100 of them) by western capitals, under heavy pressure from Washington and London. The US alone expelled 60 Russian diplomats, while Britain expelled 23.

Britain is studiously ignoring the Russian requests for samples of the chemical agent used in the Salisbury attack and for giving consular access to the ex-spy’s daughter Yulia. Meanwhile, Britain instead approached the OPCW to investigate.

The OPCW has refused to confirm or deny the country of origin of the chemical agent used in the Salisbury attack.

There is egg on PM Theresa May’s face.

On April 18, Moscow disclosed that it has handed over to the OPCW alleged proof that the Novichok agent purportedly used in the Salisbury attack actually happens to be patented as a chemical weapon in 2015 in the US and produced in that country. (By the way, unlike Russia, the US is yet to destroy its chemical weapon stockpiles, as required under the Chemical Weapons Convention of 1997.)

Now, not only the British government but Washington too has some explaining to do. Participating in the BBC’s Hard Talk program this week with Stephen Sacker, Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov punched hard, saying “‘highly likely’ is a new invention of British diplomacy to describe why they punish people – because these people are ‘highly likely’ guilty. Like in ‘Alice in Wonderland’ by Lewis Carroll when he described a trial… and the King said: ‘Let’s ask the jury’ and the Queen shouted: ‘No jury! Sentence first! Verdict afterwards!’ That’s the logic of ‘highly likely.’”

Britain is steadily edging away from the Skripal case, hoping, perhaps, that the matter will die down. But will Moscow let Britain off the hook? The Russians also seem to be holding back on some explosive information pointing toward alleged complicity by the US in this affair.

Simply put, could the Salisbury attack have been an Anglo-American joint covert operation undertaken with the ulterior motive to ratchet up tensions between the West and Russia? Indeed, it meshed well with the Russia-collusion campaign against Trump.

The Washington Post reported on Monday that the former National Security Advisor HR McMaster might have hoodwinked President Donald Trump into approving the expulsion under the wrong notion that similar numbers of expulsions by European allies was in the pipeline. In the event though, the Europeans made only token expulsions.

Earlier, McMaster tried to stop Trump from congratulating Putin on his big victory in the Russian election on March 18 in a phone conversation (where they discussed a possible summit meeting in a near future).

If the Skripal incident was McMaster’s swan song, the indefatigable Russophobe probably hoped to kill two birds with one stone – push Russia’s relations with the West to a crisis point and second, scotch the prospects of an early US-Russia presidential summit.

How far all this is linked to Trump’s decision on March 22, finally, to sack McMaster as National Security Advisor is a moot question. By the standards of military people, McMaster has the reputation of being an “intellectual” but the man proved to be a Cold Warrior fit for a museum. The one-star general who was overlooked for promotion by the Pentagon was Trump’s default choice following the abrupt departure of Michael Flynn as National Security Advisor.

Michael Wolff narrates a hilarious episode in his book Fire and Fury that during the job interview for National Security Advisor, McMaster tried to impress Trump when he showed up wearing a uniform with his silver star and launched into a wide-ranging lecture on global strategy. Afterward, Trump reportedly remarked, “That guy bores the shit out of me.”






SECOND is a troll because it constantly misrepresents what people post, fails to address their actual positions, and resorts to personal attacks when its brain isn't working (which is most of the time).

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Saturday, May 12, 2018 8:40 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


The government silence is deafening.

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Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

America is an oligarchy
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Saturday, May 12, 2018 8:51 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Some say ....

SKIPAL'S CONNECTION TO THE STEELE DOSSIER

Quote:

Washington, D.C. – There are no coincidences when it comes to deep politics. Regardless of the propaganda operations undertaken to mask the truth, there is always much more taking place than the general public is allowed to see. Take for instance the case of poisoned Russian double agent Col Sergei Skripal.

The western public has been led by the mass media to believe that Skripal and his daughter were poisoned by Russia as payback for his betrayal of Russia. However, a close look at the facts brings about some astounding conclusions. The poisoning was likely carried out by western actors operating with an intention to either scare or kill Skripal after it was revealed that his handler was one Pablo Miller, an MI6 agent the UK claims is a diplomat, and who was also a colleague in both MI6 and Orbis Intelligence of Trump dossier author, Christopher Steele.

It is important to remember that Orbis Intelligence is Christopher Steele’s company that was paid by the Clinton campaign to create a dossier of opposition research that was used as a basis for FISA warrants on the Trump campaign. In fact, as the New Yorker reported, Steele’s position itself within MI6 likely involved direct contact with Skripal:

“Steele had spent more than twenty years in M.I.6, most of it focusing on Russia. For three years, in the nineties, he spied in Moscow under diplomatic cover. Between 2006 and 2009, he ran the service’s Russia desk, at its headquarters, in London. He was fluent in Russian and widely considered to be an expert on the country.”

Moon of Alabama reported that “Steele was an MI6 undercover agent in Moscow around the time when Skripal was recruited and handed over Russian secrets to the MI6. He also ran the MI6 Russia desk so anything about Skripal will have passed through him. It is very likely that they personally knew each other. Pablo Miller, who worked for Steele’s private company, lived in the same town as Skripal and they seem to have been friends since Miller had recruited him.”

Orbis Business Intelligence was co-founded by Steele and would employ Skripal’s handler, Pablo Miller, as soon as he left MI6.

Further indicative of something likely suspicious afoot, a D Notice, which effectively bans British media outlets and journalists from mentioning Pablo Miller, was put in place on the day of the Salisbury chemical attack.

Former British diplomat Craig Murray posted a screenshot of a tweet that he called a “vital confirmation from Channel 4 News (serial rebel Alex Thomson) of the D Notice in place on mention of Pablo Miller.”

Additionally, although declining to name him, almost certainly due to the D Notice, the British Telegraph reported on Pablo Miller doing “consultancy work” for Steele’s Orbis:

** A security consultant who has worked for the company that compiled the controversial dossier on Donald Trump was close to the Russian double agent poisoned last weekend, it has been claimed.

The consultant, who The Telegraph is declining to identify, lived close to Col Skripal and is understood to have known him for some time.

The Telegraph understands that Col Skripal moved to Salisbury in 2010 in a spy swap and became close to a security consultant employed by Christopher Steele, who compiled the Trump dossier.

The British security consultant, according to a LinkedIn social network account that was removed from the internet in the past few days, is also based in Salisbury.

On the same LinkedIn account, the man listed consultancy work with Orbis Business Intelligence, according to reports.**

Clearly, Miller or someone else attempted to cover up the connection to Steele by editing his LinkedIn profile. The man that the Telegraph declined to identify was later named by Meduza as Pablo Miller:

** Pablo Miller, who at the time was posing as Antonio Alvarez de Hidalgo and working in Britain’s embassy in Tallinn. Russia’s Federal Security Service says Miller was actually an undercover MI6 agent tasked with recruiting Russians.**

Although Orbis issued a weak denial of Skripal’s involvement in producing the dossier, Murray, the former UK ambassador to Uzbekistan, noted that it was “extremely probable” that Skripal’s work on the Trump/Russia dossier was related to the his poisoning:

** Back then I did not realise what I now know, that the person being protected was Pablo Miller, colleague in both MI6 then Orbis Intelligence of Christopher Steele, author of the fabrications of the Trump/Russia golden shower dossier. That the government’s very first act on the poisoning was to ban all media mention of Pablo Miller makes it extremely probable that this whole incident is related to the Trump dossier and that Skripal had worked on it, as I immediately suspected. The most probable cause is that Skripal – who you should remember had traded the names of Russian agents to Britain for cash – had worked on the dossier with Miller but was threatening to expose its lies for cash.” **

One thing is certain, if there is a connection between the dossier and Skripal, which seems extremely likely, tying up a potential loose end seems much more likely to be the reason for his poisoning than the widely reported story that Russia tried to kill him. The fact of the matter is that timing of the assassination attempt, being one week before the Russian presidential election and prior to the World Cup, seems to ring of a western intelligence operation meant to tie up a loose end and ratchet up the ongoing information/propaganda war against Russia.

Russia had Skripal imprisoned for 4 years and he lived in the UK for 8 years. This would seem to have allowed for much more studious timing if the Russians had wanted him dead. Are we to believe that the Russians would pick the worst possible time—or is there a more logical explanation?

The reality is that the Trump administration’s investigation into the use of the unverified dossier as a tool to weaponize the U.S. intelligence apparatus for political purposes—as parts were clearly used to gain FISA warrants to spy on the Trump campaign—is coming to the public forefront. As this information becomes more readily available there will be a much more in-depth investigation into the sources and methods used by Steele.

Make no mistake that contrary to the statement from Orbis, there is a great likelihood that Skripal was intimately involved as a source in the creation of the Trump/Russia dossier. There are clearly too many connections between Steele, Miller, and Skripal to simply be ignored or passed off as mere coincidence of circumstance.

https://asweetdoseofreality.com/2018/05/06/govt-forcing-media-to-suppr
ess-bombshell-skripal-case-details-effectively-changing-the-story
/

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

America is an oligarchy
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Saturday, May 12, 2018 12:02 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


The British government is making ever stranger claims about the poisoning.

They estimate that the Skripals were exposed to 100uL of liquid. That's a lot of volume! How do you get that volume to stick to a doorknob without running off? Unless you smear it on like peanut butter - but then, it's not a liquid. And you'd see that much peanut butter.




SECOND is a troll because it constantly misrepresents what people post, fails to address their actual positions, and resorts to personal attacks when its brain isn't working (which is most of the time).

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Saturday, May 12, 2018 5:03 PM

JJ


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
The British government is making ever stranger claims about the poisoning.

They estimate that the Skripals were exposed to 100uL of liquid. That's a lot of volume! How do you get that volume to stick to a doorknob without running off? Unless you smear it on like peanut butter - but then, it's not a liquid. And you'd see that much peanut butter.




SECOND is a troll because it constantly misrepresents what people post, fails to address their actual positions, and resorts to personal attacks when its brain isn't working (which is most of the time)….1kiki



Yeah, the Russians did it.

JJ



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Saturday, May 12, 2018 5:13 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.



The British government is making ever stranger claims about the poisoning.

They estimate that the Skripals were exposed to 100uL of liquid. That's a lot of volume! How do you get that volume to stick to a doorknob without running off? Unless you smear it on like peanut butter - but then, it's not a liquid. And you'd see that much peanut butter.




SECOND is a troll because it constantly misrepresents what people post, fails to address their actual positions, and resorts to personal attacks when its brain isn't working (which is most of the time).

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Saturday, May 12, 2018 5:22 PM

CAPTAINCRUNCH

... stay crunchy...


Quote:

Originally posted by JJ:
Yeah, the Russians did it.



They have the bigger motive and it's in their budget range (cheap). Yeah, money, logic and history says they surely did.

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Saturday, May 12, 2018 7:45 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"They have the bigger motive"

Such as?

"it's in their budget range"

Which means it's in everyone else's as as well. That's a serious logic-fail there, GEEBERS.

Skripal left the Main Foreign Intelligence Service in 1999 with a maximum 10-year ban on traveling abroad. He's been living in Britain since 2010. Anything he might have done or known vis-a-vis Russia is roughly 20 years old. That's just about prehistoric in intelligence terms, where timeliness is everything.

And, links for your claims.




SECOND is a troll because it constantly misrepresents what people post, fails to address their actual positions, and resorts to personal attacks when its brain isn't working (which is most of the time).

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Sunday, May 13, 2018 8:21 AM

CAPTAINCRUNCH

... stay crunchy...


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
"They have the bigger motive"

Such as?



He's a traitor to the Motherland

Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
"it's in their budget range"

Which means it's in everyone else's as as well. That's a serious logic-fail there, GEEBERS.



He's not a traitor to "everyone." That's an epic lack of logic, Kookie.

Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Skripal left the Main Foreign Intelligence Service in 1999 with a maximum 10-year ban on traveling abroad. He's been living in Britain since 2010. Anything he might have done or known vis-a-vis Russia is roughly 20 years old. That's just about prehistoric in intelligence terms, where timeliness is everything.

And, links for your claims.




Vengeance, retribution, payback, they don't have expiration dates. If Putin will have journalists killed, he'd send a message by having an old traitor killed too.

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