REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

A thread for Democrats Only

POSTED BY: THGRRI
UPDATED: Friday, November 17, 2017 11:08
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VIEWED: 2670
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Friday, November 10, 2017 8:51 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

I am an independent myself- THUGR


BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Then what the hell are you doing in this thread? It's for DEMOCRATS, remember?

Now, since I happen to be one, I guess I can tell you to get the hell out?



-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

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Friday, November 10, 2017 8:54 PM

THGRRI



Quote:

Originally posted by THGRRI:


If you meet the requirements ( slightly to the right, middle and liberal ) and you have an interest in starting a discussion say so.



Look at my first post Jack, and please try and remember, I started the thread with this very post. I fit the bill. I meet the requirements to post here. Read moron read before you speak. Wow you kiki and SIG are the dumbest of the dumb.









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Friday, November 10, 2017 9:02 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


How about editing the title, then?

By the way, your "requirements" are self-contradictory. How can anyone be a slightly to the right and liberal?

Or maybe what you meant was: Slightly to the right, middle, OR liberal. THAT would make more sense! Anyway, it's not the same as your title, so change one or the other.


-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

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Friday, November 10, 2017 9:19 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
How about editing the title, then?

By the way, your "requirements" are self-contradictory. How can anyone be a slightly to the right and liberal?

Or maybe what you meant was: Slightly to the right, middle, OR liberal. THAT would make more sense! Anyway, it's not the same as your title, so change one or the other.



Why, I'm registered as a democrat in my state. It allows me more options.

kiki, you and Jack remind me of the movie scene where someone is hang off a cliff and are clawing at the edge to climb back up. I realized the moment you fell on both this and the zero hedge back and forth. Both times was with my first post. You were and are to dumb to know it.







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Friday, November 10, 2017 9:22 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Why, I'm registered as a democrat in my state.
Then why did you say you were an independent?

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

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Friday, November 10, 2017 9:26 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:



Why, I'm registered as a democrat in my state.

Then why did you say you were an independent?



Because I am a recovering democrat. That means I vote for the best candidate not along party lines. I am, the sensible middle. A keeper of the gate against lunacy. Your kind of lunacy.







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Friday, November 10, 2017 9:31 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Why, I'm registered as a democrat in my state. - THUGR

Then why did you say you were an independent?- SIGNY

Because I am a recovering democrat. That means I vote for the best candidate not along party lines.- TYHUGR



Well, I'm a recovering Democrat too! I too fight against lunacy! It seems we have a lot in common!

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

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Friday, November 10, 2017 9:41 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


I post wherever I want. I don't recognize your BS little club here, especially when the goalposts are so easy to move.

I implore you to continue to personally attack me. It's just another great way to show everybody else the flaws in your character.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Saturday, November 11, 2017 4:50 AM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

I am an independent myself- THUGR


BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Then what the hell are you doing in this thread? It's for DEMOCRATS, remember?

Now, since I happen to be one, I guess I can tell you to get the hell out?

The thread title currently is, and has been since the first post "A thread for Democrats only"

How dumb must one be to think that somebody INDEPENDENT of Democrat, Republican, Socialist, Communist is also one of those?
Not that I believe T is independent, but his statement is a logic failure.

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Saturday, November 11, 2017 6:32 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:

Well, I'm a recovering Democrat too! I too fight against lunacy! It seems we have a lot in common!

Does the "fight against lunacy" mean action in the real world, beyond fireflyfans.net? You don't appear to be a Patrick Henry, "Give me liberty or give me death" type nor a "The pen is mightier than the sword" type. How does a Russian troll (that is the nicest interpretation of what you do here at ff.net) "fight against lunacy" when you are not posting at ff.net?

The Trolley Problem will tell you nothing useful about morality
www.currentaffairs.org/2017/11/the-trolley-problem-will-tell-you-nothi
ng-useful-about-morality


But actually, once you get away from the world of ludicrous extremes in which every choice leads to bloodshed, large numbers of moral questions are incredibly easy. The hard thing is not “figuring out what the right thing to do is” but “mustering the courage and selflessness to actually do it.” In real life, the main moral problem is that the world has a lot of suffering and hardship in it, and most of us are doing very little to stop it. If we must put everything in terms of trolleys, the closer parallel would be: a trolley is bearing down on five people, and someone says to you “If you give me your money, I can save them.” You immediately get quite uncomfortable because you wanted to buy something, and come up with a sheepish rationalization like “Uh, well, I can’t just go around giving money to anybody who asks me, it’s not sustainable.” (Then everyone dies.)



The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Saturday, November 11, 2017 8:55 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


BIG SPOILER ALERT FOR THE GOOD PLACE!!!

I prefer the comedy of the trolley dilemma solution on the Good Place.




A.K.A. Second is not nearly as deep as he would have you believe him to be.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Saturday, November 11, 2017 9:03 AM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

Why, I'm registered as a democrat in my state. - THUGR

Then why did you say you were an independent?- SIGNY

Because I am a recovering democrat. That means I vote for the best candidate not along party lines.- TYHUGR



Well, I'm a recovering Democrat too! I too fight against lunacy! It seems we have a lot in common!












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Saturday, November 11, 2017 9:26 AM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by second:
Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:

Well, I'm a recovering Democrat too! I too fight against lunacy! It seems we have a lot in common!

Does the "fight against lunacy" mean action in the real world, beyond fireflyfans.net? You don't appear to be a Patrick Henry, "Give me liberty or give me death" type nor a "The pen is mightier than the sword" type. How does a Russian troll (that is the nicest interpretation of what you do here at ff.net) "fight against lunacy" when you are not posting at ff.net?

The Trolley Problem will tell you nothing useful about morality
www.currentaffairs.org/2017/11/the-trolley-problem-will-tell-you-nothi
ng-useful-about-morality


But actually, once you get away from the world of ludicrous extremes in which every choice leads to bloodshed, large numbers of moral questions are incredibly easy. The hard thing is not “figuring out what the right thing to do is” but “mustering the courage and selflessness to actually do it.” In real life, the main moral problem is that the world has a lot of suffering and hardship in it, and most of us are doing very little to stop it. If we must put everything in terms of trolleys, the closer parallel would be: a trolley is bearing down on five people, and someone says to you “If you give me your money, I can save them.” You immediately get quite uncomfortable because you wanted to buy something, and come up with a sheepish rationalization like “Uh, well, I can’t just go around giving money to anybody who asks me, it’s not sustainable.” (Then everyone dies.)



I think there is a lot to be said SECOND for what you post. We are as a society 7.5 billion. That would include a lot of bad folk. And a lot where nature nurture would turn people desperate. However, much of the good goes unnoticed and unreported. That is truly something we can thank the media for fueling. They appeal to our worst nature because we are drawn in so easily to the negative. It's were the money is for them, so to speak.

I'll quote something you said here. You telling SIG that what she does in these threads is toll and worse, while you intimate that a troll here would be a troll in the real world. My opinion when I see you asking her how she helps the cause of good outside these threads. I think we both know she doesn't, and we both know she'll lie and make something up.



"How does a Russian troll (that is the nicest interpretation of what you do here at ff.net) "fight against lunacy" when you are not posting at ff.net?" SECOND







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Saturday, November 11, 2017 9:34 AM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
BIG SPOILER ALERT FOR THE GOOD PLACE!!!

I prefer the comedy of the trolley dilemma solution on the Good Place.

A.K.A. Second is not nearly as deep as he would have you believe him to be.

Do Right, Be Right. :)



His posts suggests he is a thinker Jack. Just as yours suggest you are sick and not.

Excuse me for leaving your cartoon illustration massacre of people video out of my response to you. It's just I don't post videos of that nature. Full disclosure, I didn't bother to watch it either. SECONDS however was very interesting.







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Saturday, November 11, 2017 2:08 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.



-THUGR

Yep, a troll paid by the gif.

I'll see you one and raise you one




-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

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Saturday, November 11, 2017 2:43 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:

Yep, a troll paid by the gif.

I'll see you one and raise you one




Here's a message from SECOND to you sig.

"A Russian troll (that is the nicest interpretation of what you do here at ff.net)" SECOND







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Saturday, November 11, 2017 6:46 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Hey there comrade troll SECOND !

How's the trolling lately? Got any more ad hominems to post?




HAS IT NOT OCCURRED TO YOU BY NOW THAT IF YOU HAVE TO RESORT TO LOGICAL FALLACIES AND TROLLING YOUR SO-CALLED ARGUMENTS ARE LIES?

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Sunday, November 12, 2017 9:46 AM

THGRRI


Kiki you're less than a bug in these threads. Or perhaps that's all you are. Whenever you offer your opinion on something it gets swatted down for being nonsense. Must be frustrating for you.






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Sunday, November 12, 2017 5:24 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Still being paid by the gif, comrade troll THUGR?

What's the matter- words failing you, again?

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

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Sunday, November 12, 2017 9:15 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by THGRRI:
Quote:

Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
BIG SPOILER ALERT FOR THE GOOD PLACE!!!

I prefer the comedy of the trolley dilemma solution on the Good Place.

A.K.A. Second is not nearly as deep as he would have you believe him to be.

Do Right, Be Right. :)



His posts suggests he is a thinker Jack. Just as yours suggest you are sick and not.

Excuse me for leaving your cartoon illustration massacre of people video out of my response to you. It's just I don't post videos of that nature. Full disclosure, I didn't bother to watch it either. SECONDS however was very interesting.




The point was that he's not a thinker, and citing Foot's Trolley Dilemma online today when The Good Place just discussed it in great length a few weeks ago is not any evidence that he is since any Google search will show you that it has been talked about very much by the ignorant masses lately.

Sorry not sorry for offending your delicate sensibilities, snowflake. That came from a sitcom with a PG13 rating, so it must be pretty tough for somebody like you to function in today's society.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Monday, November 13, 2017 12:01 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Still being paid by the gif, comrade troll THUGR?

What's the matter- words failing you, again?




You and kiki are just to stupid. I'll show you why.

So, according to you and kiki now I'm a Russian troll. OK, I believe Russia is full of nothing but losers. It's nothing more than a gas station for Europeans run by a bunch of drunks and criminals.

I think Putins hates gays because he is one. And sooner rather than later Trump will be gone and Putins will get his. Right up the ass.

What do you think of Russia sig, kiki? Our actual Russian trolls. What do you think about Russia?









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Monday, November 13, 2017 12:35 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Still being paid by the gif, comrade troll THUGR?
What's the matter- words failing you, again?

You and kiki are just to stupid. I'll show you why.
So, according to you and kiki now I'm a Russian troll. OK, I believe Russia is full of nothing but losers. It's nothing more than a gas station for Europeans run by a bunch of drunks and criminals.
I think Putins hates gays because he is one. And sooner rather than later Trump will be gone and Putins will get his. Right up the ass.
What do you think of Russia sig, kiki? Our actual Russian trolls. What do you think about Russia?- THUGR



I think you think far too much about Russia, and have invested far too much hate and bile towards Putin because you're Russian.


Personally, I mostly don't care about what goes on in Russia except as it relates to us Americans. And since I think that nearly all of our worst problems (debt, climate change, wealth inequality, corruption, overextended imperial ambitions, corrosion of civil liberties, monopolism etc.) are self-inflicted and have nothing much to do with Russia, I don't think much about Russia.



What I have observed it that - after the USA militarily surrounded Russia; attempted to destroy it with a combination of sanctions, oil price war, and an attack on the ruble; illegally knocked over a series of governments in the Middle east and fomented "color revolutions" elsewhere; and withdrawn from missile treaties; and in addition ...

Attempted to open up another front by "pivoting east" to China ...

1) Russia has gone on a war footing, and
2) Russia and China have been thrown into each other's arms.

Like I said: self-created problems.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

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Monday, November 13, 2017 12:44 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

Still being paid by the gif, comrade troll THUGR?
What's the matter- words failing you, again?

You and kiki are just to stupid. I'll show you why.
So, according to you and kiki now I'm a Russian troll. OK, I believe Russia is full of nothing but losers. It's nothing more than a gas station for Europeans run by a bunch of drunks and criminals.
I think Putins hates gays because he is one. And sooner rather than later Trump will be gone and Putins will get his. Right up the ass.
What do you think of Russia sig, kiki? Our actual Russian trolls. What do you think about Russia?- THUGR




What I have observed it that - after the USA militarily surrounded Russia; attempted to destroy it with a combination of sanctions, oil price war, and an attack on the ruble; illegally knocked over a series of governments in the Middle east and fomented "color revolutions" elsewhere; and withdrawn from missile treaties; and in addition ...

Attempted to open up another front by "pivoting east" to China ...

1) Russia has gone on a war footing, and
2) Russia and China have been thrown into each other's arms.

Like I said: self-created problems.

I think you think far too much about Russia, and have invested far too much hate and bile towards Putin because you're Russian.


Personally, I mostly don't care about what goes on in Russia except as it relates to us Americans. And since I think that nearly all of our worst problems (debt, climate change, wealth inequality, corruption, overextended imperial ambitions, corrosion of civil liberties, monopolism etc.) are self-inflicted and have nothing much to do with Russia, I don't think much about Russia.



Just making a point sig. Normally I wouldn't post so negatively about the people of a particular country. In this case I did it to prove my point.

Over the last couple of years you have had many opportunities to suggest Russia is wrong about this or that. Not once have you done anything but defend it. You say you only care about Russia as it applies to us Americans. Well, over the years you've taken their side on everything. As you do here again. All the while attacking every aspect of democracy.

Whenever you are confronted directly, first you defend Russia and blame America. Then you deflect. Just as you have done here. Fallacy of relative privation sig. Why would we talk about Russia when the rest of the world is so fucked up. All this is right out of Putins' playbook. My point is made comrade.







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Monday, November 13, 2017 4:33 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Still being paid by the gif, comrade troll THUGR?
What's the matter- words failing you, again?- SIGNY

You and kiki are just to stupid. I'll show you why.
So, according to you and kiki now I'm a Russian troll. OK, I believe Russia is full of nothing but losers. It's nothing more than a gas station for Europeans run by a bunch of drunks and criminals.
I think Putins hates gays because he is one. And sooner rather than later Trump will be gone and Putins will get his. Right up the ass.
What do you think of Russia sig, kiki? Our actual Russian trolls. What do you think about Russia?- THUGR

I DON"'T THINK MUCH ABOUT RUSSIA.

What I have observed it that - after the USA militarily surrounded Russia; attempted to destroy it with a combination of sanctions, oil price war, and an attack on the ruble; illegally knocked over a series of governments in the Middle east and fomented "color revolutions" elsewhere; and withdrawn from missile treaties; and in addition ...

Attempted to open up another front by "pivoting east" to China ...

1) Russia has gone on a war footing, and
2) Russia and China have been thrown into each other's arms.

Like I said: self-created problems.

I think you think far too much about Russia, and have invested far too much hate and bile towards Putin because you're Russian.


Personally, I mostly don't care about what goes on in Russia except as it relates to us Americans. And since I think that nearly all of our worst problems (debt, climate change, wealth inequality, corruption, overextended imperial ambitions, corrosion of civil liberties, monopolism etc.) are self-inflicted and have nothing much to do with Russia, I don't think much about Russia.- SIGNY

Just making a point sig. Normally I wouldn't post so negatively about the people of a particular country. In this case I did it to prove my point. - THUGR

Your "point" being that you're obsessed about Russia, because that's ALL you post about! Seriously! Don't you have anything ELSE to post about?

Quote:

Over the last couple of years you have had many opportunities to suggest Russia is wrong about this or that. -THUGR
Over the years I have had many opportunities to suggest that CHINA is wrong about this or that. Or Brazil. Or South Africa, or Kenya, or Afghanistan, because I find those nations head-bangingly backwards and corrupt ...much more so than Russia. But I haven't said anything about them EITHER, BECAUSE IT'S NOT MY BUSINESS TO BE THE MORALITY POLICE OF THE WORLD

Quote:

Not once have you done anything but defend it. You say you only care about Russia as it applies to us Americans. Well, over the years you've taken their side on everything.
My god, you have got this Russia-thing under your skin, don't you?

Personally, I find Russia's actions to be mostly explicable based on Russia's interests. Their deals and partnerships with Turkey, KSA, and India are perplexing because the current leadership of those nations are unreliable backstabbers.

I question China's HUGE debt expansion, and I'm more worried about THEM wanting to become the world's new hegemon than Russia. The contention over the S China see seems irresolvable, and I think China is overstepping its maritime rights egregiously. I think the current and previous leaders of Venezuela have made fatal errors in what their did with their oil money. I would like to see the Taliban, ISIS, and al Qaeda blown off the face of the earth. I wish India would get its shit together instead of floundering as a mass of miserable humanity. Robert Mugabe is an asshole. In a world of corrupt leaders, Africa suffers from some of the worst corruption in the world. Duterte is an odd duck!


I have all kinds of opinions on a lot of other nations WHICH I DON'T BRING HERE BECAUSE I'M NOT THE POLICEMAN OF THE WORLD.



Do you know what they say about behavior? You can't control anyone else's behavior, you can only control your own. Following that advice, I think we should focus on OUR behavior and OUR policies and OUR responses, and not constantly trying to control everyone else. How can I possibly make this any clearer?

You're just a fucking asshole, THUGR. You treat other nations WHICH ARE DIFFERENT THAN OURS just the way you treat people here WHO ARE DIFFERENT THAN YOU: YOU CAN'T STAND IT, and seek to browbeat, troll, and punish everyone who disagrees with you. So, let me repeat: You're just a fucking asshole.

Quote:

As you do here again. All the while attacking every aspect of democracy. - THUGR
Oh bullshit.

Find me ONE post where I attacked our democracy.

But remember, democracy is not neo-colonialism, corporatocracy, oligarchy, or world hegemony, as you seem to think.

The rest of your post is just more balh-blah-blah.



-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

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Monday, November 13, 2017 5:52 PM

THGRRI


No sense responding to your last very long post sig. You made sure my signature appears at the end of your post. That statement says it all. I own you.






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Monday, November 13, 2017 5:58 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.







HAS IT NOT OCCURRED TO YOU BY NOW THAT IF YOU HAVE TO RESORT TO LOGICAL FALLACIES AND TROLLING YOUR SO-CALLED ARGUMENTS ARE LIES?

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Monday, November 13, 2017 6:08 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

No sense responding to your last very long post sig.
Once again, words failed him.

You're a known liar and troll who can't back up anything that he says with anything like the truth. Every time you get your ass handed to you, you shit a gif and bail from the thread.






-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

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Wednesday, November 15, 2017 11:54 AM

THGRRI



"I think you think far too much about Russia, and have invested far too much hate and bile towards Putin because you're Russian." sig








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Thursday, November 16, 2017 10:46 AM

THGRRI



Kiki you're less than a bug in these threads. Or perhaps that's all you are. Whenever you offer your opinion on something it gets swatted down for being nonsense. Must be frustrating for you.










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Thursday, November 16, 2017 11:31 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


And there is THUGR, shitting gifs again.

Dood, all you're doing is expressing your "feelings". One of these days, you'll understand that "feeling" and "thinking" are two different things, and you'll bring some actual... yanno... thought to the board instead of gifs.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

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Thursday, November 16, 2017 12:29 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
And there is THUGR, shitting gifs again.

Dood, all you're doing is expressing your "feelings". One of these days, you'll understand that "feeling" and "thinking" are two different things, and you'll bring some actual... yanno... thought to the board instead of gifs.



Sig you live in a world of denial. You refuse to acknowledge this because it is an unacceptable truth for you. You refuse to even allow this truth into your consciousness. Aside from like minded trolls who post here the rest of us are fully aware of this.

For years you have had your clock cleaned time and time again by those debating issues with you. You've been caught in lie after lie, and yet you continue to post the fallacies' of others from whatever source is available. Your reputation here is that of someone who constantly delivers unsound arguments based on deceptive information.

You lose comrade. You lose by the fact that your participation in these threads is considered by others to be trolling.







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Thursday, November 16, 2017 12:37 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

No sense responding to your last very long post sig.- THUGR
Once again, words failed him.

You're a known liar and troll who can't back up anything that he says with anything like the truth. Every time you get your ass handed to you, you shit a gif and bail from the thread.





-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

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Thursday, November 16, 2017 12:51 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

No sense responding to your last very long post sig.- THUGR
Once again, words failed him.

You're a known liar and troll who can't back up anything that he says with anything like the truth. Every time you get your ass handed to you, you shit a gif and bail from the thread.



OK, because you are regurgitating what you post I'll post this one more time.

Sig you live in a world of denial. You refuse to acknowledge this because it is an unacceptable truth for you. You refuse to even allow this truth into your consciousness. Aside from like minded trolls who post here the rest of us are fully aware of this.

For years you have had your clock cleaned time and time again by those debating issues with you. You've been caught in lie after lie, and yet you continue to post the fallacies' of others from whatever source is available. Your reputation here is that of someone who constantly delivers unsound arguments based on deceptive information.

You lose comrade. You lose by the fact that your participation in these threads is considered by others to be trolling.







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Friday, November 17, 2017 11:08 AM

THGRRI


'Don't spew that stuff on me!': Shouting match erupts in Senate over GOP tax plan

A shouting match erupted in the Senate Finance hearing over the Republican tax overhaul, with Ohio Democrat Sherrod Brown and Utah Republican Orrin Hatch arguing Thursday night over who benefits from the GOP plan.

At the heart of the argument is new analysis by congressional number crunchers that finds the plan cuts taxes at first but by 2027 actually raises taxes for anyone making less than $75,000.
"When the Republicans are in power, the first thing they want to do is give tax cuts to the rich. That's just what's — it's in their DNA," Brown said.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/dont-spew-that-stuff-on-me-sho
uting-match-erupts-in-senate-over-gop-tax-plan/ar-BBF4Udd?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartanntp







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