REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Transgender Kindergardener

POSTED BY: JEWELSTAITEFAN
UPDATED: Thursday, October 12, 2017 17:53
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 1156
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Sunday, September 24, 2017 3:37 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


In what world is this not a result of brainwashing?
What 4-year-old has a clue what their sexuality is, what their ordained gender is?
Is this purely a "nurture" derailment, or could it possibly be a "nature" or genetic issue?


http://www.theblaze.com/news/2017/08/23/kindergartner-revealed-as-tran
sgender-to-classmates-then-teacher-reads-transgender-books-to-class
/


While millions of Africans and Chinese die of starvation, once upon a time "Bad Hair Day" expressed the imbicilic attitudes of the overly sheltered. Now we have National Football League dishonoring the Nation they claim to be part of, and the concerns of Transgender 4 year olds. Somewhere, perspectives and perceptions are skewed.

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Sunday, September 24, 2017 6:30 PM

WISHIMAY

There will be fire and brimstone and Earth will be destroyed!... in several billion years!----------------------------------------- "Well, so long Earth. Thanks for the air... and what-not." -Philip J. Fry


"But American College of Pediatricians President Michelle Cretella disagreed, telling KTXL that “having an authority figure teach the myth that a child can be trapped in the wrong body will potentially lead to fear that they aren’t the sex their bodies clearly indicate.”


Like I've said a MILLION times, "clearly indicated gender" ISN'T.

I've read a hundred times about a "girl" who had undescended testicles, or a "boy" who gets a period. Girls with no vagina, boys with a penis that's closer to a clitoris. Not to even start on the hormone imbalances that can cause you to COMPLETELY CHANGE GENDER, or your body can not recognize the hormones you have. That is without looking at structure and function of brains in gender areas, which can be radically different. Then what about all those Olympic athletes they have to do DNA tests to find out what they should be classified as... Seriously, there are over thirty of these kinds of things.

Unless you have a secret DNA decoder ring no one knows about...IT IS NONE OF YOUR UNEDUCATED BUSINESS. It should be between the kid's doctor, than that kid's FAMILY.




.

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Sunday, September 24, 2017 6:45 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Wishimay:
"But American College of Pediatricians President Michelle Cretella disagreed, telling KTXL that “having an authority figure teach the myth that a child can be trapped in the wrong body will potentially lead to fear that they aren’t the sex their bodies clearly indicate.”


Like I've said a MILLION times, "clearly indicated gender" ISN'T.

I've read a hundred times about a "girl" who had undescended testicles, or a "boy" who gets a period. Girls with no vagina, boys with a penis that's closer to a clitoris. Not to even start on the hormone imbalances that can cause you to COMPLETELY CHANGE GENDER, or your body can not recognize the hormones you have. That is without looking at structure and function of brains in gender areas, which can be radically different. Then what about all those Olympic athletes they have to do DNA tests to find out what they should be classified as... Seriously, there are over thirty of these kinds of things.

Unless you have a secret DNA decoder ring no one knows about...IT IS NONE OF YOUR UNEDUCATED BUSINESS. It should be between the kid's doctor, than that kid's FAMILY.

Olympic Athletes are 4 years old?

4 year olds have menstrual periods?

If the gender is uncertain, why does it need to be changed? If the gender was not changed, why broadcast to all fhe other 4 year olds it was converted?

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Sunday, September 24, 2017 7:02 PM

WISHIMAY

There will be fire and brimstone and Earth will be destroyed!... in several billion years!----------------------------------------- "Well, so long Earth. Thanks for the air... and what-not." -Philip J. Fry


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Olympic Athletes are 4 years old?

4 year olds have menstrual periods?

If the gender is uncertain, why does it need to be changed? If the gender was not changed, why broadcast to all fhe other 4 year olds it was converted?



I'm trying to say that gender isn't a clear thing to see in MANY PEOPLE. Including athletes, and even in people that have periods. Or ejaculations, for that matter.

I do not know why the child is transitioning, I do not have access to the child's medical records. Maybe it was born with both genitals and they decided to wait to see what the child wanted. There is a good chance that is the child plays with dolls, likes pink, and tea parties, it identifies as a female. The parents are playing the odds that the child will be happier as what it is transitioning to. IF THEY ARE WRONG, IT CAN BE CHANGED BACK, in many cases...unless that have one of those disorders where the body does not recognize the hormone being produced.

Transitioning the child before it has massive amounts of gender specific hormones, allows it to develop the features of the gender it wants, easier.
Gender is in the BRAIN. The hormones for sex and sexual attraction can be different than the gender structure in the BRAIN.



AGAIN....What difference does it make TO YOUR LIFE??? You don't even have an elementary grade level grasp on the subject, maybe you better leave it up to better educated people???

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Monday, September 25, 2017 12:09 AM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Wishimay:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Olympic Athletes are 4 years old?

4 year olds have menstrual periods?

If the gender is uncertain, why does it need to be changed? If the gender was not changed, why broadcast to all fhe other 4 year olds it was converted?

I'm trying to say that gender isn't a clear thing to see in MANY PEOPLE. Including athletes, and even in people that have periods. Or ejaculations, for that matter.

4 year olds on your planet are different than 4 year olds in our world.

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Monday, September 25, 2017 1:02 AM

WISHIMAY

There will be fire and brimstone and Earth will be destroyed!... in several billion years!----------------------------------------- "Well, so long Earth. Thanks for the air... and what-not." -Philip J. Fry


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
4 year olds on your planet are different than 4 year olds in our world.



I know. My world has science, your world has baseless fear and bigotry.

I feel bad for the oddball 4 yr olds in your world that are forced to conform so you don't have to learn anything.


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Monday, September 25, 2017 1:39 AM

6STRINGJOKER


I feel bad for the "boy" who gets a period. I don't even want to know how that "worked".

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Monday, September 25, 2017 7:13 AM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by Wishimay:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Olympic Athletes are 4 years old?

4 year olds have menstrual periods?

If the gender is uncertain, why does it need to be changed? If the gender was not changed, why broadcast to all fhe other 4 year olds it was converted?

I'm trying to say that gender isn't a clear thing to see in MANY PEOPLE. Including athletes, and even in people that have periods. Or ejaculations, for that matter.

4 year olds on your planet are different than 4 year olds in our world.

Sure, 4 year olds having menstrual periods and ejaculations are based entirely upon the comprehension or delusion of the adults in their world.
Still a member of The Flat Earth Society there, SodomQueen?

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Monday, September 25, 2017 11:37 AM

WISHIMAY

There will be fire and brimstone and Earth will be destroyed!... in several billion years!----------------------------------------- "Well, so long Earth. Thanks for the air... and what-not." -Philip J. Fry


You are such a dumb ass. lol

I honestly haven't met any more messed up people than you and 6ix...

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Monday, September 25, 2017 12:48 PM

6STRINGJOKER


Awwwww....

Look at her JSF. She's projecting again.


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Monday, September 25, 2017 1:53 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


WISHY ....


There are children who're born with ambiguous genitals, and children who're born with ambiguous chromosomes, such as X0 (Tuner Syndrome), XXXX (triple, or rarely quadruple or pentuple X), (XXY, XXXY) Klinefelter Syndrome, XYY syndrome etc.
http://anthro.palomar.edu/abnormal/abnormal_5.htm

In such cases, doctors and parents often feel compelled to make a sex assignment at birth.

I don't know if the child in question is such a child. From the article, I doubt it.

IMHO, tho, I would leave sex assignment as late as possible in a child or young person's life, even if there are developmental or genetic abnormalities, at least until they have SOME idea of the social ramifications of being either sex. For a young child who has no secondary sex characteristics to speak of, dressing like a boy or a girl is enough for other children and even other adults to accept the child as the apparent sex. Performing surgery and injecting hormones into a young child, even if the child is obsessed with sexual identity, is showing very poor judgment IMHO. Children often grow out of their fixations with a particular gender, and reversing sex assignment isn't as easy as you make it sound. And although assigning a sex early is "easier", it is often a miataken assignment.

Our rigid division into "male" and "female" stereotypes is the real problem. When I was growing up, there were tomboys (girls who wore boys clothes and roughhoused) and there were sensitive boys (boys who liked to quietly play checkers and pretend-cook). Instead of pigeonholing children' bodies into these stereotypes and making them conform, can't we, as adults, be more open-minded? If there's a boy who wants to wear girl's clothes- so what? If there's a girl who wants to play rough, so what?

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

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Monday, September 25, 2017 4:32 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
WISHY ....


There are children who're born with ambiguous genitals, and children who're born with ambiguous chromosomes, such as X0 (Tuner Syndrome), XXXX (triple, or rarely quadruple or pentuple X), (XXY, XXXY) Klinefelter Syndrome, XYY syndrome etc.
http://anthro.palomar.edu/abnormal/abnormal_5.htm

In such cases, doctors and parents often feel compelled to make a sex assignment at birth.

I don't know if the child in question is such a child. From the article, I doubt it.

IMHO, tho, I would leave sex assignment as late as possible in a child or young person's life, even if there are developmental or genetic abnormalities, at least until they have SOME idea of the social ramifications of being either sex. For a young child who has no secondary sex characteristics to speak of, dressing like a boy or a girl is enough for other children and even other adults to accept the child as the apparent sex. Performing surgery and injecting hormones into a young child, even if the child is obsessed with sexual identity, is showing very poor judgment IMHO. Children often grow out of their fixations with a particular gender, and reversing sex assignment isn't as easy as you make it sound. And although assigning a sex early is "easier", it is often a miataken assignment.

Our rigid division into "male" and "female" stereotypes is the real problem. When I was growing up, there were tomboys (girls who wore boys clothes and roughhoused) and there were sensitive boys (boys who liked to quietly play checkers and pretend-cook). Instead of pigeonholing children' bodies into these stereotypes and making them conform, can't we, as adults, be more open-minded? If there's a boy who wants to wear girl's clothes- so what? If there's a girl who wants to play rough, so what?

Although not addressed to me, I welcome another voice of reason to the thread. Will it fall on SodomQueen's deaf ears?

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Monday, September 25, 2017 7:01 PM

6STRINGJOKER


LOL... I was waiting to see who made the first butt sex joke.

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Monday, September 25, 2017 11:42 PM

WISHIMAY

There will be fire and brimstone and Earth will be destroyed!... in several billion years!----------------------------------------- "Well, so long Earth. Thanks for the air... and what-not." -Philip J. Fry


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Will it fall on SodomQueen's deaf ears?






Here ya go, limpdick. This is an old-fashioned can, just like you...

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Monday, September 25, 2017 11:50 PM

WISHIMAY

There will be fire and brimstone and Earth will be destroyed!... in several billion years!----------------------------------------- "Well, so long Earth. Thanks for the air... and what-not." -Philip J. Fry


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:


In such cases, doctors and parents often feel compelled to make a sex assignment at birth.




HAVE YOU MET HUMANS? You really think they will change being stupid any time soon? I don't blame any parent who does what they feel is right in those circumstances.

And, yes, I know about all of those, and probably a few you don't. But one has to use small words with small minds... He doesn't have a single damn clue what you are talking about. Hell, he couldn't even understand I wasn't talking about 4 yr old Olympians with PMS

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Monday, September 25, 2017 11:54 PM

WISHIMAY

There will be fire and brimstone and Earth will be destroyed!... in several billion years!----------------------------------------- "Well, so long Earth. Thanks for the air... and what-not." -Philip J. Fry


Quote:

Originally posted by 6stringJoker:
. I don't even want to know



FINALLY, we get to the crux of the problem with you being oblivious. It's self-enforced!

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Monday, September 25, 2017 11:59 PM

6STRINGJOKER


Quote:

From the article: “These kids who had never struggled with their gender identity before are all of a sudden scared they could be turned into a boy”


Why? They would be able to take advantage of the Wage Gap when they grew up and exert their Patriarchy on the other half of the species.




What a brave child, and parents. I hope the kid knew what she was doing. She's in a for a lifetime of systemic abuse now that she wouldn't have received before the surgery.

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Tuesday, September 26, 2017 12:13 AM

6STRINGJOKER


Quote:

Originally posted by Wishimay:
Quote:

Originally posted by 6stringJoker:
. I don't even want to know



FINALLY, we get to the crux of the problem with you being oblivious. It's self-enforced!




LOL...

Wonder where Wishy learned to use the elipses (although she didn't actually use them).

I think you need to go watch some more Rachel Maddow or something. They're great at doing what you just tried to cleverly do there, but you did it wrong.

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Tuesday, September 26, 2017 12:40 AM

WISHIMAY

There will be fire and brimstone and Earth will be destroyed!... in several billion years!----------------------------------------- "Well, so long Earth. Thanks for the air... and what-not." -Philip J. Fry


It must be a Republican thing to blather on about sentence structure or formation when you've got nothing intelligent to say...

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Tuesday, September 26, 2017 12:54 AM

6STRINGJOKER


Hmmmmmmm....

Quote:

Originally posted by Wishimay:

And it's "deep-seated", genius


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Tuesday, September 26, 2017 1:58 PM

BYTEMITE


I was two when I began non-conforming. By the time I was five I wanted a hysterectomy, never wanted children, and never wanted to get married. At the time I had no idea what trans was, I just thought I was a tomboy. But I was definitely gender dysphoric.

The thing people need to realize is that any teenager who identifies trans below the age of 18 is taking puberty blockers or hormones, which is reversible: you just go off the blockers or the hormones, if you were taking estrogen, you have the fat deposits removed. You have to be careful about some of the steroids, sure, in the same way that college athletes have to be careful, but people are trying to figure out who they are and how to fix their lives, and there is always some amount of risk in that. Anyone younger who isn't a teenager and not going through puberty basically just changes their hair style and their clothing.

Absolutely no one thinks that a 4 year old having plastic surgery to reconstruct their plumbing is a good idea. This isn't anything anyone is talking about.

And no, it's not brainwashing. Again, I didn't even know what trans was. I just knew I was different from everyone else, growing up in Idaho, among the mormons, all the girls in kindergarten wearing their button up dresses and playing with dolls. I was different. I was bullied for it too, by the girls and the boys, they knew I was different too. I got called a butch lesbian once by a six year old, sneering in hate. You want to talk about brainwashing? A six year old hating what they don't understand. That's brainwashing.

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Tuesday, September 26, 2017 2:18 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Our rigid division into "male" and "female" stereotypes is the real problem. When I was growing up, there were tomboys (girls who wore boys clothes and roughhoused) and there were sensitive boys (boys who liked to quietly play checkers and pretend-cook). Instead of pigeonholing children' bodies into these stereotypes and making them conform, can't we, as adults, be more open-minded? If there's a boy who wants to wear girl's clothes- so what? If there's a girl who wants to play rough, so what?




Thanks sig. I agree with this - the problem is the strict gender roles. People should be what they want to be, it shouldn't be so life defining for anyone. There shouldn't be double standards, double standards are abhorrent to me. I support men getting fair treatment in custody cases, I support women getting equal treatment under the law if they break it, I support women working hard and getting into business and STEM fields and athletics, I support men as teachers and nurses, I support men and women choosing to be the best parent they can be, within the constraints that society imposes on them. It shouldn't ever matter what gender someone is in regards to what their choices are or whether they're respected.

I still want to be a guy, I still think I am one from a social aspect in a lot of ways, but as I grew older I realized there were a lot of things that changing my gender wouldn't actually change or fix for me. That isn't true for everyone who struggles with their gender identity, but it was for me.

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Tuesday, September 26, 2017 2:29 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Why? They would be able to take advantage of the Wage Gap when they grew up and exert their Patriarchy on the other half of the species.



You joke, but that's actually what Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminists (TERFs) argue: that mtf transgender women are evil predatory agents of the patriarchy, and that ftm transgender men are gender traitors.

(I think TERFs are a hate group)

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Tuesday, September 26, 2017 4:12 PM

6STRINGJOKER


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Quote:

Why? They would be able to take advantage of the Wage Gap when they grew up and exert their Patriarchy on the other half of the species.



You joke, but that's actually what Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminists argue: that mtf transgender women are evil predatory agents of the patriarchy, and that ftm transgender men are gender traitors.



Yeah... Of course I was joking, but as you said it is a legitimate belief held by radicals. I don't recall if I've ever personally heard one say it, but it doesn't surprise me in the least that it has been said.

I've seen a lot of transgender people who are not at all happy with the SJW/Feminist agenda today. For instance, the claim that gender is a social construct. That offends a lot of transgendered people who believe that their gender was based off of biology and by labeling gender as a social construct you are essentially saying that it's all in their heads.

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Tuesday, September 26, 2017 4:45 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

I've seen a lot of transgender people who are not at all happy with the SJW/Feminist agenda today. For instance, the claim that gender is a social construct. That offends a lot of transgendered people who believe that their gender was based off of biology and by labeling gender as a social construct you are essentially saying that it's all in their heads.


There's definitely a balance. I think there is a way to accommodate the needs and feelings of trans people, which I do believe is biologically based and nature side, and people who are non-conforming and rebelling against nurture side exacerbation of gender roles via social pressures. I think it's as simple as saying everyone should be free to identify and live as they like so long as they aren't harming anyone else. I think there's actually significant overlap between these groups, they have a lot more in common than they don't, and judging by my own journey, I think people go back and forth a bit between them.

I think ultimately not all trans people 100% adopt all the interests and mannerism of the complete opposite site of the aisle. It's a spectrum, there's a mix, and people aren't stereotypes, there are nuances. I'm not fond of overly girly stuff, but I still cook, because it's an adult skill that's useful. I think if we were to talk about it in these terms, then maybe transgender issues wouldn't seem so excluded from nonbinary issues.

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Tuesday, September 26, 2017 5:03 PM

WISHIMAY

There will be fire and brimstone and Earth will be destroyed!... in several billion years!----------------------------------------- "Well, so long Earth. Thanks for the air... and what-not." -Philip J. Fry


Quote:

Originally posted by 6stringJoker:


And it's "deep-seated", genius



I just thought he should know he can't use English properly and looks like a douche. The only thing I got wrong was not erasing a period. Looks like you are on yours, though.

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Tuesday, September 26, 2017 5:04 PM

6STRINGJOKER


I'm with anybody being able to do as they like if they aren't hurting anybody too. That being said, I'm not a fan of people trying to pass laws that can fine or even jail somebody who refuses to use the "proper" pronoun somebody wants to go by. Especially in the case of all of the weird pronouns like Zed and Zir or whatever they are. I view forcing everybody to have to use these pronouns by law as hurting them.

All I'm saying is, nobody should get butt hurt when other people refuse to buy into their delusions that they are a wolf or a dragon. People who do it and people who don't agree with it can just agree to not associate with each other. Aside from that, let the people LARP all they want.


EDIT: Obviously, that was a reply to you Byte. Wishy snuck in another dumb comment before I was able to post.

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Tuesday, September 26, 2017 7:11 PM

WISHIMAY

There will be fire and brimstone and Earth will be destroyed!... in several billion years!----------------------------------------- "Well, so long Earth. Thanks for the air... and what-not." -Philip J. Fry


Quote:

Originally posted by 6stringJoker:
I'm with anybody being able to do as they like if they aren't hurting anybody too. That being said, I'm not a fan of people trying to pass laws that can fine or even jail somebody who refuses to use the "proper" pronoun somebody wants to go by. Especially in the case of all of the weird pronouns like Zed and Zir or whatever they are. I view forcing everybody to have to use these pronouns by law as hurting them.




As usual, you don't understand anything. No one is making laws, but children in a school are a closed environment. You have a choice between the kids calling a girl who wants to be a boy "him" everyday, or having all the children intentionally calling "him" a her every day and all the ensuing daily fights that would result. It isn't really about what the child wants to be called but making it through the day, and if calling a her a "him" or a "zer" does that with minimal disruption, they should do that.
Getting an education shouldn't be traumatizing, no matter what the issue is. They are just kids.

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Tuesday, September 26, 2017 7:14 PM

WISHIMAY

There will be fire and brimstone and Earth will be destroyed!... in several billion years!----------------------------------------- "Well, so long Earth. Thanks for the air... and what-not." -Philip J. Fry



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Tuesday, September 26, 2017 8:22 PM

6STRINGJOKER


Quote:

Originally posted by Wishimay:


As usual, you don't understand anything. No one is making laws...



http://dailycaller.com/2017/08/25/california-could-start-jailing-peopl
e-who-dont-use-transgender-pronouns
/

Quote:

A bill that passed the California state senate and is now moving through the Assembly could threaten jail time for anyone who refuses to use a transgender person’s preferred pronoun.


http://dailycaller.com/2017/06/16/canada-passes-law-criminalizing-use-
of-wrong-gender-pronouns
/

Quote:

Canada passed a law Thursday making it illegal to use the wrong gender pronouns. Critics say that Canadians who do not subscribe to progressive gender theory could be accused of hate crimes, jailed, fined, and made to take anti-bias training.


http://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2017/july/california-proposes-jail-time
-for-using-the-wrong-pronoun-for-senior-transgenders


Quote:

California Proposes Jail Time for Using the Wrong Pronoun for Transgenders


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2016/05/17/yo
u-can-be-fined-for-not-calling-people-ze-or-hir-if-thats-the-pronoun-they-demand-that-you-use/?utm_term=.b24da9679159


Quote:


You can be fined for not calling people ‘ze’ or ‘hir,’ if that’s the pronoun they demand that you use




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Wednesday, September 27, 2017 12:05 AM

WISHIMAY

There will be fire and brimstone and Earth will be destroyed!... in several billion years!----------------------------------------- "Well, so long Earth. Thanks for the air... and what-not." -Philip J. Fry


Wow, you googled something. Hold on, I may faint.

Sounds like a bit of an overreach, but knowing how assholic people can be, maybe not. I'm sure many people would be willing to start a fight every time they had to deal with such different people. And they shouldn't have to pretend they are something they are not for people who can't learn or empathize.

Like it or not, trans, non-binary, LGBTQ... they aren't going to go away, and screaming "him" or "her" at someone who doesn't want to be called it isn't going to do the planet any favors. It's not like you scream "hey girl" and they are going to suddenly change their minds...

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Wednesday, September 27, 2017 12:14 AM

WISHIMAY

There will be fire and brimstone and Earth will be destroyed!... in several billion years!----------------------------------------- "Well, so long Earth. Thanks for the air... and what-not." -Philip J. Fry


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4922994/Murdered-trans-teen-ey
es-gouged-genitals-stabbed.html


Let's play a game of "Find the monster"

I'll give you a hint, it wasn't the trans kid.

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Wednesday, September 27, 2017 1:38 AM

6STRINGJOKER


Personally, I don't have any problems with transgender people. I think you'll see that I've never called them names or referred to them as the opposite sex they identify as.

When some college punk kid tries getting me fined or jailed because I won't call him or her Zir or Zed, I'm going to make their life miserable.

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Wednesday, September 27, 2017 4:54 PM

BYTEMITE


Well, I can't say I think making a law about it will de-escalate anything or make things any easier on the kids trying to find their identity.

You said you don't misgender Jack, so not sure you have anything to worry about, let alone that this is in a rare few states.

I also expect that in order for what they're proposing to work in *any sense whatsoever* that there would have to be a several months trend, where it would become clear that the behaviour was deliberate and meant to hurt, and thus likely cross over into legal definition of harassment territory. Sorta like when cyberbullies repeatedly tell someone to kill themselves, since long term misgendering can be correlated with suicidal tendencies.

I don't think it's going to be like "HEY, CALL ME A ZIR SHITLORD" and "no" and "AAAHH MICROAGGRESSION POLICE HELP" and police will be like "this is clearly a situation where we are required and care whatsoever." If anyone actually did do that, they'd probably get laughed at by the cops and nothing would happen.

Anyway. Meanwhile, here is a ridiculous story about someone dealing with intolerance the right (and funny) way.

https://np.reddit.com/r/legaladvice/comments/71f9b3/ive_been_walking_a
round_shirtless_and_the
/

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Wednesday, September 27, 2017 6:27 PM

6STRINGJOKER


Yeah. I don't misgender, so I'm not really worried about it. You're *probably* right that the cops would laugh about the Zir or Zed thing, but who knows... Maybe we all have to learn a list of 100 pronouns in our lifetime and remember what everyone wants to be called, or just stop talking to anybody at all in fear that we'll be thrown in jail for using the wrong one.


That being said, I still have a problem with anybody having to face jail time or a fine for what essentially boils down to "name calling."

If that's happening at work, there are HR departments to take care of those sorts of things, just like any other verbal "abuse" under the sun. We already know that it won't be tolerated at all in schools, and if it does anywhere that administration will be very quickly thrust under the microscope and receive the hate of the nation.

Really, outside of that, what's the big deal? People shit talk other people everyday for a million different reasons. I got picked on a lot when I was a kid for being small and having glasses and braces. Nobody made laws against that. Forgive me if I don't sympathize with people who I think are just going out of their way to be abused.

There are plenty of people in the real world who's company I don't or wouldn't enjoy. I do my best to avoid being around them whenever possible.

I think everybody just needs to grow up a little bit.




lol... I just read the story you posted. She gets it.

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Wednesday, September 27, 2017 7:31 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Really, outside of that, what's the big deal? People shit talk other people everyday for a million different reasons. I got picked on a lot when I was a kid for being small and having glasses and braces. Nobody made laws against that. Forgive me if I don't sympathize with people who I think are just going out of their way to be abused.



I'd say this is the difference of rights between children and adults. As an adult, repeatedly getting insulted or harrassed after you've asked someone to stop would actually be a legal thing, it would be criminal harrassment. A person can get a restraining order against them for that, and if they violate the restraining order, they'd go to jail. At work, harrassment would result in a warning, and if continued, a dismissal.

People can be inscrutable and really stubborn, to an alarming degree, in their quest to hurt people. I have no problem with the existence of restraining orders or HR departments to deal with people going out of their way to make life hard for another person.

But for some reason society seems to believe that kids should just put up with something an adult would not put up with. I guess because it builds character?

At least some states have started to make efforts against cyberbullying I guess.

Quote:


There are plenty of people in the real world who's company I don't or wouldn't enjoy. I do my best to avoid being around them whenever possible.



Sure. And anti-harrassment laws exist when people are so unstable they see your effort at avoiding them and still persist in finding ways to get to you.

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Saturday, October 7, 2017 12:35 AM

OONJERAH


"The 5-year-old student — born a male — was reintroduced to the class
as a girl one day earlier this summer, just a few days before the end
of school year, KTXL said. ...

"But American College of Pediatricians President Michelle Cretella
disagreed, telling KTXL that “having an authority figure teach the
myth that a child can be trapped in the wrong body will potentially
lead to fear that they aren’t the sex their bodies clearly indicate.

... "Indeed, Karen England with the Capitol Resource Institute told
KHTK the “kindergartners came home very confused, about whether or
not you can pick your gender, whether or not they really were a boy
or a girl.”

OK. I'm confused too. If I have a 5-yr-old boy, take him to a surgeon
& have him changed into a girl ... I cannot comprehend any reason
I would do it. To me, that's nuts! Let the child grow up & make his/her
own gender choice.

I read the article & here's a comment posted below it:
"To subject kids to the transgender lifestyle at that age is wrong.
For the most part, they haven’t even begun to explore their sexuality
much less achieve a working level of knowledge on the subject. Kids
at that age shouldn’t have to deal with deviations from heterosexuality.
They should be allowed to just be children. BTW check out the stats
on trans suicides. Also, there is a Transgender PhD in Canada who
has a strong warning against catering to this mental defect rather
treating it."


... oooOO}{OOooo ...

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Saturday, October 7, 2017 12:56 AM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Oonjerah:
"The 5-year-old student — born a male — was reintroduced to the class
as a girl one day earlier this summer, just a few days before the end
of school year, KTXL said. ...

"But American College of Pediatricians President Michelle Cretella
disagreed, telling KTXL that “having an authority figure teach the
myth that a child can be trapped in the wrong body will potentially
lead to fear that they aren’t the sex their bodies clearly indicate.

... "Indeed, Karen England with the Capitol Resource Institute told
KHTK the “kindergartners came home very confused, about whether or
not you can pick your gender, whether or not they really were a boy
or a girl.”

OK. I'm confused too. If I have a 5-yr-old boy, take him to a surgeon
& have him changed into a girl ... I cannot comprehend any reason
I would do it. To me, that's nuts! Let the child grow up & make his/her
own gender choice.

I read the article & here's a comment posted below it:
"To subject kids to the transgender lifestyle at that age is wrong.
For the most part, they haven’t even begun to explore their sexuality
much less achieve a working level of knowledge on the subject. Kids
at that age shouldn’t have to deal with deviations from heterosexuality.
They should be allowed to just be children. BTW check out the stats
on trans suicides. Also, there is a Transgender PhD in Canada who
has a strong warning against catering to this mental defect rather
treating it."


... oooOO}{OOooo ...

Hey, you just rephrased my question in the OP. Good on you.

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Tuesday, October 10, 2017 6:07 PM

BYTEMITE


Even the article, which has a pretty clear bias at the end, is clear that this child is simply changing clothes and hasn't had surgery.

Quote:

The 5-year-old student — born a male — was reintroduced to the class as a girl one day earlier this summer, just a few days before the end of school year, KTXL said. Parents told KHTK-TV the student also changed clothes at some point during class.


Because again, absolutely no one would do that or okay surgery on a five year old.

Also gender identity and sexuality are two entirely different things.

American College of Pediatricians is a political group, and they don't necessarily represent the entirety of the discourse, or the research, on the transgender question.

Gender dysphoria is often comorbid with depression and suicidal ideation. Sometimes transitioning helps, sometimes it doesn't. A statistic indicating that trans people who have transitioned are more likely than the general population to suicide doesn't really tell anyone much - because they're already more likely to suicide before transitioning as well. There are also statistics of transitioned people who self report doing and feeling better, and I find that data to be more useful.

Last thing I'll say here:

Quote:

“my daughter came home crying and shaking so afraid she could turn into a boy.”


Now imagine how trans identifying kids feel when they start to grow chest hair, or when they start to develop breasts and have their period. I should know. It's not very different from that.

That girl is cis-gendered. That is fine. She has a strong gender identity. Trans people feel the same way.

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Tuesday, October 10, 2017 6:26 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Even the article, which has a pretty clear bias at the end, is clear that this child is simply changing clothes and hasn't had surgery.
Quote:

The 5-year-old student — born a male — was reintroduced to the class as a girl one day earlier this summer, just a few days before the end of school year, KTXL said. Parents told KHTK-TV the student also changed clothes at some point during class.
Because again, absolutely no one would do that or okay surgery on a five year old.

Also gender identity and sexuality are two entirely different things.

American College of Pediatricians is a political group, and they don't necessarily represent the entirety of the discourse, or the research, on the transgender question.

Last thing I'll say here:
Quote:

“my daughter came home crying and shaking so afraid she could turn into a boy.”
Now imagine how trans identifying kids feel when they start to grow chest hair, or when they start to develop breasts and have their period. I should know. It's not very different from that.

That girl is cis-gendered. That is fine. She has a strong gender identity. Trans people feel the same way.

Thanks for the input.
So you feel this change is driven entirely by the 5 year old?

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Tuesday, October 10, 2017 6:36 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Thanks for the input.
So you feel this change is driven entirely by the 5 year old?



I don't know the five year old. But I do know that "trendy" parents who try to make their kids be trans tend to be both rare and fail miserably, as one might expect. It is impossible to force someone to embrace being contrary to their own nature for long term. Honestly, I think that's some Munchausen by Proxy bullshit, and I'll stand right beside the rest of you and denounce that if that was happening.

But I'll put this another way. I don't think this child would have proudly come out to the class as her new identity if she were being pressured into this by her parents, and I also don't think that the teacher would have been recommended these pro-trans books by an "anonymous" student if this wasn't legit.

Imagine if your parents had forced you to go to school dressed as a girl. You would have felt humiliated and violated, I imagine? You would have resented it and rebelled in whatever ways you could? You probably wouldn't have embraced it or drawn attention to yourself?

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Tuesday, October 10, 2017 8:05 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Quote:

Thanks for the input.
So you feel this change is driven entirely by the 5 year old?

I don't know the five year old. But I do know that "trendy" parents who try to make their kids be trans tend to be both rare and fail miserably, as one might expect. It is impossible to force someone to embrace being contrary to their own nature for long term. Honestly, I think that's some Munchausen by Proxy bullshit, and I'll stand right beside the rest of you and denounce that if that was happening.

But I'll put this another way. I don't think this child would have proudly come out to the class as her new identity if she were being pressured into this by her parents, and I also don't think that the teacher would have been recommended these pro-trans books by an "anonymous" student if this wasn't legit.

Imagine if your parents had forced you to go to school dressed as a girl. You would have felt humiliated and violated, I imagine? You would have resented it and rebelled in whatever ways you could? You probably wouldn't have embraced it or drawn attention to yourself?

At 5 years old?
I would have done whatever got me more candy and ice cream. Other than the whole girl germs issue. And as a kid I didn't wear shorts normally, so a kilt may have been requiring extra candy.

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Tuesday, October 10, 2017 9:56 PM

BYTEMITE


Maybe looking deeper into that feeling you had about girl germs a little closer and this might help improve our dialogue here - girls were something different, othered, and gross to you as a young boy. That's true with many other boys that age, because they have a gender identity, they know they are a boy. Since this feeling at that age that the other gender is gross is very common among children, I'm not sure most boys would okay with having to be a girl as you're saying here. I don't think for most people that a simple bribe of candy or ice cream would be enough. I think many of them feel other boys would be cruel to them, and they'd be worried about friendships and social acceptance.

Heck at six I was really bothered when someone called me a butch lesbian, like I said, and I didn't even know what that *was*. At five kids are more than capable of knowing whether they identify as a boy, a girl, or not, and they also know how other kids react to them.

You think you would have put up with other kids attacking you, spitting on you, mocking you, because you didn't dress or act like you're supposed to? Keep in mind, this is all stuff that happened to me.

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Wednesday, October 11, 2017 12:38 AM

OONJERAH



Theory: About 80% of people, be they adults or kids, react to one another
in a mostly accepting, inclusive way. Call 'em the Brown Monkies.

From 81 to 95%, there are those who are a bit different, but not enough
to offend/incite the majority. These are Gray Monkies.

From 96 to 100% are those who are overtly different. The Green Monkies ...
They tend to be considered odd ... too weird ... often offensively freaky
geeky.

From my point of view, it's only been in the last 50 years that the geeks
get some social acceptance. Think Mr. Spock, The Big Bang theory, & like
that. "someone who is interested in mathematics or science to the point
of having significantly diminished social skills".
"Plato is the first superstar geek in the Western world."


... oooOO}{OOooo ...

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Wednesday, October 11, 2017 10:54 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Even the article, which has a pretty clear bias at the end, is clear that this child is simply changing clothes and hasn't had surgery.

Quote:

The 5-year-old student — born a male — was reintroduced to the class as a girl one day earlier this summer, just a few days before the end of school year, KTXL said. Parents told KHTK-TV the student also changed clothes at some point during class.


Because again, absolutely no one would do that or okay surgery on a five year old.

Also gender identity and sexuality are two entirely different things.

American College of Pediatricians is a political group, and they don't necessarily represent the entirety of the discourse, or the research, on the transgender question.

Gender dysphoria is often comorbid with depression and suicidal ideation. Sometimes transitioning helps, sometimes it doesn't. A statistic indicating that trans people who have transitioned are more likely than the general population to suicide doesn't really tell anyone much - because they're already more likely to suicide before transitioning as well. There are also statistics of transitioned people who self report doing and feeling better, and I find that data to be more useful.

Last thing I'll say here:

Quote:

“my daughter came home crying and shaking so afraid she could turn into a boy.”


Now imagine how trans identifying kids feel when they start to grow chest hair, or when they start to develop breasts and have their period. I should know. It's not very different from that.

That girl is cis-gendered. That is fine. She has a strong gender identity. Trans people feel the same way.



Okay, that was a serious misunderstanding on my part. I thought that surgery and hormone treatment were part of the picture.

I guess I don't understand what all of the fuss is about. I was a tomboy growing up; I dressed in boys clothes and we (a few tomboy girls) used to roughhouse with the boys and get into all kinds of mischief. At the age of five, your child simply shows up with new clothes and a new name in a new school, then goes back to the old school in a year or two. Most kids are brainless enough at that age not to even remember who was who from kindergarten to second grade.

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Wednesday, October 11, 2017 11:21 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

I guess I don't understand what all of the fuss is about.


I feel the same way. There SHOULDN'T be a fuss about gender non-conforming. Kids should be allowed to figure out who they are, rather than told there's something inherently wrong with them when they're born with or develop something they can't change. Kids shouldn't bully other kids because they don't wear button up dresses to school, or be punished by adults and told that they need to try to be a lady just because they like climbing trees, when their own family members at a similar age are allowed. Same exact thing for kids who want to play with dolls, or wear dresses, or cook or sew.

WHY is this such a terrible thing to some people? Why do people react to this like the very idea is an offense to their own existence, or a threat to them? It's just kids being kids, people being people.

I'll grant you that maybe hearing all the times about transgender issues has gotten people to be annoyed or frustrated by it or feel imposed on, and I can get that. That's why I don't normally bring it up unless other people talk about it, and why I don't particularly give a damn about gender pronouns. I'll twinge a little uncomfortably when people call me a she, because in my experience, everything bad that has ever happened to me has been the result of being perceived as a she, but it's not like I'm going to get mad about it.

What I don't understand is the reaction that causes people to try to kill someone for nonconforming, or particularly nasty TERFs who tell people they should kill themselves.

Quote:

I was a tomboy growing up; I dressed in boys clothes and we (a few tomboy girls) used to roughhouse with the boys and get into all kinds of mischief.


See, at five I would have agreed with you that I was a tomboy, that's even how I self-identified because I didn't have the words or concepts for any of this. I was even still calling myself a tomboy up until a few years ago.

There was just a few key differences. The first was how I felt so much resentment about how differently I got treated from boys.

The second was feeling anxiety to the point of nausea at how everyone seemed to plan out my whole future for me. They told me that I would be a mother, that this was my only purpose in life, that I would somehow develop some nurturing instinct inherent in me out of nowhere, that I would eventually like babies and not see them as weird deformed tiny people resembling meatloaf, that I would somehow eventually become okay with the biological processes involved in child birth and child care, and random fluids dripping out of me for hormone reasons that I can't even control. It revolted me. It still does.

At the time, though my understanding of the other details didn't come until later, I was desperate to escape that fate and never have children - I hoped that I could by acting and dressing like a boy as much as I was allowed. By the time I was able to understand what a hysterectomy was, I wanted one, because then it could never happen.

Eventually I realized that this isn't actually something most other tomboys feel. Everyone always told me I was different in some way, I always felt it acutely growing up. Now I just have a word for what was different.

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Wednesday, October 11, 2017 12:53 PM

BYTEMITE


Also, Sorry JSF, I think my last response to you was worded more harshly than I intended. I edited out the parts that I think were maybe unintentionally offensive.

I think that the general population probably doesn't understand trans issues or trans people well, and so they maybe don't realize just how strongly affected some people might be, or how damaging it may be to force someone to act as something contrary to their self-identity. I was not accusing anyone of condoning anything.

I think that forcing someone to be something they aren't is a form of abuse, but because it's outside of the range of what most people experience, maybe it's harder to sympathize with the difficulty of it.

In the interest of explaining and exploring just why this is abuse, perhaps I will link you what I think of as the most extreme and abusive case of this. I think some of you are already familiar with this.

As a preliminary I will also say that this is by no means what dealing with transgender or cisgender issues should ever look like, and that this is awful. This was unethical, and I think everyone involved, the doctor, and the parents, deserve to be charged with some serious crimes. I question their motives, I question the value of the experiment. I question their politics. I question the politics of people who capitalized on this, who were left leaning feminists, and it is extremely unfortunate that we owe the concept of gender identity to this travesty. I think this was abuse.

http://articles.latimes.com/2004/may/13/local/me-reimer13

This person was a boy. He was forcibly altered to be a girl, and forced to live as a girl, despite not identifying as a girl. This caused him a lot of distress, he never felt like a girl and didn't want to do girl identifying things or behaviours. My understanding is he eventually committed suicide (though the article suggests this was for unrelated reasons).

I think this is an example of introducing severe gender dysphoria in someone who is cisgendered, by forcing them to be trans.

I think trans people forced to present as cisgendered, and cisgendered people forced to be trans, likely feel a very similar level of wrongness and pain.

I hope that maybe this helps people understand where I'm coming from, from an emotional standpoint on this issue.

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Wednesday, October 11, 2017 1:26 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

I guess I don't understand what all of the fuss is about.- SIGNY

I feel the same way. There SHOULDN'T be a fuss about gender non-conforming. Kids should be allowed to figure out who they are, rather than told there's something inherently wrong with them when they're born with or develop something they can't change. Kids shouldn't bully other kids because they don't wear button up dresses to school, or be punished by adults and told that they need to try to be a lady just because they like climbing trees, when their own family members at a similar age are allowed. Same exact thing for kids who want to play with dolls, or wear dresses, or cook or sew.

WHY is this such a terrible thing to some people? Why do people react to this like the very idea is an offense to their own existence, or a threat to them? It's just kids being kids, people being people.

I'll grant you that maybe hearing all the times about transgender issues has gotten people to be annoyed or frustrated by it or feel imposed on, and I can get that. That's why I don't normally bring it up unless other people talk about it, and why I don't particularly give a damn about gender pronouns. I'll twinge a little uncomfortably when people call me a she, because in my experience, everything bad that has ever happened to me has been the result of being perceived as a she, but it's not like I'm going to get mad about it.

What I don't understand is the reaction that causes people to try to kill someone for nonconforming, or particularly nasty TERFs who tell people they should kill themselves.- BYTE

FYI I had to look up TERF. Still not sure I understand what a TERF believes in.

Quote:

I was a tomboy growing up; I dressed in boys clothes and we (a few tomboy girls) used to roughhouse with the boys and get into all kinds of mischief.- SIGNY

See, at five I would have agreed with you that I was a tomboy, that's even how I self-identified because I didn't have the words or concepts for any of this. I was even still calling myself a tomboy up until a few years ago.

There was just a few key differences. The first was how I felt so much resentment about how differently I got treated from boys.

Even in early grade school, when they were teaching us grammar and the grammarians said that if you were referring to generic "people" you should use the pronoun "he", I thought That's not fair. I didn't feel a GREAT deal of resentment, but it irked me every time.

Quote:

The second was feeling anxiety to the point of nausea at how everyone seemed to plan out my whole future for me. They told me that I would be a mother, that this was my only purpose in life, that I would somehow develop some nurturing instinct inherent in me out of nowhere, that I would eventually like babies and not see them as weird deformed tiny people resembling meatloaf ...
hahahaha! Well, they do!

Quote:

... that I would somehow eventually become okay with the biological processes involved in child birth and child care, and random fluids dripping out of me for hormone reasons that I can't even control. It revolted me. It still does. - BYTE


I guess I had a very different upbringing. Our dad had three daughters, and while I can't say that he treated us "just like" he would have treated boys, he used to drill into our heads that we should get good grades so we could get scholarships so we could go to college and get degrees in something useful ("not like underwater basketweaving") so that we "wouldn't have to depend on any man". Our mom worked (resentfully as her energy ran down and her drinking zoomed up) as a full-time nurse. We were expected to mow the lawn and dig gardens and know how to change a tire as well as how to cook and clean and launder.

They never made a big deal about us getting married, never nagged us about having grandchildren for them. I didn't feel any special attraction towards having children, but since I ooohed and aaahed over kittens and puppies, that might have eventually xfered to human babies .... if I hadn't done so much babysitting in my teen years! In fact, because they were dealing with their own problems in our teen years (13-19) we were more-or-less left to raise ourselves, and our leaving the nest was a traumatic event that left us out of touch for a few more years. The only message we got about love and marriage is that we should "save ourselves for marriage". In many ways, I was pretty lucky because my upbringing was about as genderless as was possible back then.

Quote:

At the time, though my understanding of the other details didn't come until later, I was desperate to escape that fate and never have children - I hoped that I could by acting and dressing like a boy as much as I was allowed. By the time I was able to understand what a hysterectomy was, I wanted one, because then it could never happen.

Eventually I realized that this isn't actually something most other tomboys feel. Everyone always told me I was different in some way, I always felt it acutely growing up. Now I just have a word for what was different.



So, if I could parse this a little bit more... As I said, I was pretty lucky. Traditional female role and behavior wasn't forced on me.

But I saw myself as a girl who did boy-things, not as a boy. When I was really little, boys and girls were kind of the same. But at some point -maybe seven- I thought boys were big and stupid and loutish and smelly, and the LAST thing I wanted to do was pitch baseball cards against the school steps, or have to pee in a boys' bathroom. I also rather dimly realized at the time that I was luckier than some boys, because while I was allowed to dress like a boy and do boy-things, boys were not allowed to dress in girl clothes and do girl-things, and it seemed a bit unfair even to my young mind.

So I guess my question to you is: Are you rebelling against the female role? Or do you see yourself as a male? Or perhaps as an androgyne or genderless?

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

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Wednesday, October 11, 2017 2:09 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Even in early grade school, when they were teaching us grammar and the grammarians said that if you were referring to generic "people" you should use the pronoun "he", I thought That's not fair . I didn't feel a GREAT deal of resentment, but it irked me every time.


Oh yeah. I see the arguments against it and they, even though nowadays I really like "they," but yeah, nineties and earlier upbringing there was not a whole lot of books or video games marketed to girls that wasn't barbie. And you can guess how thrilled I was about Barbie. So all the books I read and games I played that I found interesting, they were all about Hims.

Quote:

They never made a big deal about us getting married, never nagged us about having grandchildren for them. I didn't feel any special attraction towards having children, but since I ooohed and aaahed over kittens and puppies, that might have eventually xfered to human babies .... if I hadn't done so much babysitting in my teen years! In fact, because they were dealing with their own problems in our teen years (13-19) we were more-or-less left to raise ourselves, and our leaving the nest was a traumatic event that left us out of touch for a few more years. The only message we got about love and marriage is that we should "save ourselves for marriage". In many ways, I was pretty lucky because my upbringing was about as genderless as was possible back then.


That sounds amazing, yes. Even the marriage thing was probably more practical than anything against women, because teen pregnancy usually does not result in financial success. I wish I could have learned more useful skills in repair and maintenance, and gone fishing with my grandfather.

Utah and Idaho are both very Mormon, which may be why my experience was so extreme. Everywhere I went, expectations slapped me in the face. My own family wasn't Mormon but, they also didn't really understand.

Quote:

But at some point -maybe seven- I thought boys were big and stupid and loutish and smelly, and the LAST thing I wanted to do was pitch baseball cards against the school steps, or have to pee in a boys' bathroom.


And here's the other difference, and the one that might be the most damning here: I was the opposite. I even got blackmailed for a while by someone I'd thought was a friend before all that because they caught me using the boys' bathroom stalls and that was a huge taboo in the area. I didn't like girls, the girly things they were interested in annoyed me and seemed pointless.

I was actually quite a shitty little misogynist in my own way, and that eventually came back to bite me.

Quote:

I also rather dimly realized at the time that I was luckier than some boys, because while I was allowed to dress like a boy and do boy-things, boys were not allowed to dress in girl clothes and do girl-things, and it seemed a bit unfair even to my young mind.


This is true. At the time I couldn't understand it - why would anyone want to do girl things? But I for sure had it better than anyone mtf, or even the boys who weren't seen as masculine enough. At least being a tomboy was somewhat tolerated, even if I was a lot more extreme in my views and behaviour than just a tomboy.

Quote:

So I guess my question to you is: Are you rebelling against the female role? Or do you see yourself as a male? Or perhaps as an androgyne or genderless?


As a kid, I saw myself as male, and wanted to be male, and it was a struggle against everyone trying to make me be female, and so that turned into rebelling against that role. In terms of how I act, what I aspire to and admire, I probably qualify as masculine. But over time, and I think this is unusual in my case, my urge to change myself lessened, and I realized that becoming male in more than just my outlook wouldn't really get rid of my problems, and would probably add a bunch too. So now I am in an in-between state, and so I'm probably best described as agender, not really one or the other anymore.


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Wednesday, October 11, 2017 2:26 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Thanks BYTE, I really appreciate the answers, I know you could just have told me to buzz off. They clear up some misunderstandings on my part.

Yanno, they say that as you get older, you get to be more and more like your "real" self, because all of those influences that loom so large when you're young get diminished/ scrambled with time. If you grew up in an extremely traditionalist household, I can see how that would definitely fuel rebellion ... you may be somewhat oppositional by nature anyway, and it wouldn't help if you had something to REALLY rebel against! So your life was oscillating after being given a big knock, but I hope it's settling into a more comfortable role.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

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