REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Barack Obama calls Trumpcare ‘massive transfer of wealth’ from poor to rich

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Thursday, July 27, 2017 10:48
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Sunday, June 25, 2017 10:41 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Uh huh.

Do you see that trend under Obama (2008-2016) when wealth was redistributed back downwards?



Yeah, me neither.
What a hypocrite.

Here's another curious observation: Do you that that BIG transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich under Clinton, when most working people thought they were doing pretty well?

In reality, the trend does seem to stay pretty much the same, whether there's Dems or Repubs in the WH or Congress.

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Sunday, June 25, 2017 11:12 PM

RIVERLOVE


It's called "trickle up" economics. The "poor" will soon be transferring all their massive wealth to the "rich". AMSCOT and The Money Store have offered to assist the "poor" with this enormous task by giving them free penny wrappers and quaaludes.

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Monday, June 26, 2017 12:41 AM

6STRINGJOKER


I guess Barack Obama didn't get the memo that his opinion doesn't matter anymore.

Hillary finally took the hint and we don't have to hear from the Clintons anymore. Barry should follow suit.

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Monday, June 26, 2017 3:12 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


I have two questions:

1- Where did you get that chart?

2- Did you actually get any of that money Obama mentioned?

3- Do you think that Trump is going to keep his word about, well, any of his campaign promises?

Hey wait, that's three! Sorry, I lied, but you should be use to that by now.


SGG


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Uh huh.

Do you see that trend under Obama (2008-2016) when wealth was redistributed back downwards?



Yeah, me neither.
What a hypocrite.

Here's another curious observation: Do you that that BIG transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich under Clinton, when most working people thought they were doing pretty well?

In reality, the trend does seem to stay pretty much the same, whether there's Dems or Repubs in the WH or Congress.


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Monday, June 26, 2017 6:38 AM

REAVERFAN


Obama is 100% right, once again.

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Monday, June 26, 2017 7:10 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Lol that Siggy defends Trump even when he's slashing taxes for the rich and stripping coverage away from millions of ordinary/poor people.

This is the woman who says everything she does politically is for "ordinary working people". Way to talk about other people being hypocrites Siggy

-------------------------------------------------------

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Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
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Monday, June 26, 2017 11:31 AM

6STRINGJOKER


I'm not even talking about the subject of Trumpcare vs Obamacare.

Never before in history did the ex-president have a big fucking mouth like Obama. It's time for him to shut it and go away.

Audacity indeed.

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Monday, June 26, 2017 5:32 PM

REAVERFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by 6stringJoker:
I'm not even talking about the subject of Trumpcare vs Obamacare.

Never before in history did the ex-president have a big fucking mouth like Obama. It's time for him to shut it and go away.

Audacity indeed.

You've got to be kidding. Talk about selective memory.

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Monday, June 26, 2017 6:00 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

I have two questions:

1- Where did you get that chart?

Mother Jones website, I forget the article, but if you want to see the link to the picture just right-click on the image, then "copy" to any text editor and it will show you the source (Mother Jones).

Quote:

2- Did you actually get any of that money Obama mentioned?
What money was that?

Quote:

3- Do you think that Trump is going to keep his word about, well, any of his campaign promises?
No, not really. I think I've made that point a couple of dozen times by now. Seriously, don't you ever learn?

I defined "intelligence" as "the ability to learn". It seems that NONE of you can get off your one-track thoughts.

Quote:

TRUMP ISN'T KEEPING HIS PROMISES!
Yeah, so? Did I ever say that he would, or could? Or that I even agreed with most of them?

Quote:

TRUMP IS A RUSSIAN STOOGE
What idiocy! Making nice with Russia was a campaign promise, not some sort of nefarious secret plan that was sprung on people after the election.

Try some new objections for a change, for god's sake.

Quote:

Hey wait, that's three! Sorry, I lied, but you should be use to that by now
From you? Yes, I am!



-----------

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake

THUGR, JONESING FOR WWIII
All those guns 1kiki, are pointed towards your beloved Russia. All those cyber capabilities, pointed right at Russia. Thanks Putin, and get ready to duck.
I'll accept your apology any time, THUGR. But I know you're not man enough to give me one


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Monday, June 26, 2017 8:15 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by reaverfan:
Quote:

Originally posted by 6stringJoker:
I'm not even talking about the subject of Trumpcare vs Obamacare.

Never before in history did the ex-president have a big fucking mouth like Obama. It's time for him to shut it and go away.

Audacity indeed.

You've got to be kidding. Talk about selective memory.


Are you able to clarify or specify a former President who bad-mouthed a sitting President?
It has been a very long time since that has happened, other than Clinton and Obama.

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Monday, June 26, 2017 8:57 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

I have two questions:

1- Where did you get that chart?

Mother Jones website, I forget the article, but if you want to see the link to the picture just right-click on the image, then "copy" to any text editor and it will show you the source (Mother Jones).

There are ten more charts in the article "11 Charts That Show Income Inequality Isn’t Getting Better Anytime Soon"
www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/12/america-income-inequality-wealth-
net-worth-charts
/

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Monday, June 26, 2017 9:46 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

Are you able to clarify or specify a former President who bad-mouthed a sitting President?
It has been a very long time since that has happened, other than Clinton and Obama.

Bush gave a brief assessment of Trump’s inaugural: “That was some weird shit.”
www.snopes.com/2017/03/31/bush-trumps-inauguration-weird-sht/

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Monday, June 26, 2017 9:56 PM

6STRINGJOKER


Quote:

Originally posted by second:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

Are you able to clarify or specify a former President who bad-mouthed a sitting President?
It has been a very long time since that has happened, other than Clinton and Obama.

Bush gave a brief assessment of Trump’s inaugural: “That was some weird shit.”
www.snopes.com/2017/03/31/bush-trumps-inauguration-weird-sht/



Quote:

According to reports, three unnamed witnesses heard Bush refer to the 45th president's inauguration using the phrase.


In other words, no.

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Monday, June 26, 2017 10:14 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by 6stringJoker:
Quote:

Originally posted by second:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

Are you able to clarify or specify a former President who bad-mouthed a sitting President?
It has been a very long time since that has happened, other than Clinton and Obama.

Bush gave a brief assessment of Trump’s inaugural: “That was some weird shit.”
www.snopes.com/2017/03/31/bush-trumps-inauguration-weird-sht/



Quote:

According to reports, three unnamed witnesses heard Bush refer to the 45th president's inauguration using the phrase.


In other words, no.

In other words, yes, Bush did badmouth Trump. Furthermore, the publication that Obama was getting his information is available to you:
www.cbo.gov/publication/52849

The Congressional Budget Office's scorecard of the bill has been released to help clarify the waters that GOP allies are so diligently muddying. That report is crystal clear: Between now and 2026, the GOP Senate health-care plan would carve out “a reduction of $772 billion in federal outlays for Medicaid.”

Recall, if you will, that “a reduction in federal outlays” is fed-speak for “a cut.” Obama is correct about Trumpcare being a massive transfer of wealth.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Monday, June 26, 2017 10:16 PM

6STRINGJOKER


Quote:

Originally posted by second:
In other words, yes, Bush did badmouth Trump.



Says who?

Three anonymous sources made up by a left wing "journalist" on Snopes.

In other words, no.


Quote:

Originally posted by second:
Recall, if you will, that “a reduction in federal outlays” is fed-speak for “a cut.” Obama is correct about Trumpcare being a massive transfer of wealth.



A "cut" of deficit spending. Recall, if you will, that deficit spending means spending money today that will have to be paid back by the future generations.

The money to cover Obamacare doesn't exist and needs to be "printed". I couldn't expect somebody to understand this concept when they revere Obama so much after he doubled the national deficit in 8 years.



How much money is being saved by cutting funding for healthcare that is being transferred to the wealthy?

Let me do the math here...


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Monday, June 26, 2017 10:47 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by 6stringJoker:

A "cut" of deficit spending. Recall, if you will, that deficit spending means spending money today that will have to be paid back by the future generations.

The money to cover Obamacare doesn't exist and needs to be "printed". I couldn't expect somebody to understand this concept when they revere Obama so much after he doubled the national deficit in 8 years.

Hey genius. You're thinking of the Federal Reserve printing money, but tax money is not being printed, but is "extracted" from the wealthy to pay for Medicaid. I'm sitting on top of billions in natural gas reserves, waiting for the right time to release it from the ground and convert it into dollars. The Federal government will take their cut. There is no printing, there is nothing imaginary about that wealth in the ground waiting to be extracted and taxed to pay for Medicaid. The thing that Trumpcare is deciding is what percent of the money from the natural gas will be used to pay for Medicaid.

For another example there is Disney, where the money is extracted when Star Wars and Marvel Comic movies are made. Those movies are really going to happen and it has nothing to do with the Federal Reserve printing money. Star Wars is even a better way than natural gas to make money because you don't burn movies to release CO2. Disney will be paying taxes to support Medicaid. If Trumpcare passed, Disney will be paying less taxes, which means more for the wealthy and less money to pay for poor people's Medicaid.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Monday, June 26, 2017 11:43 PM

6STRINGJOKER


Hey genius. I don't care what the money is being spent on or where they say they are getting it. When we are spending 1 Trillion more per year than we are making as a nation, that money is being printed.


And instead of the millions we thought you were talking about, you got billions, huh?

Yep. Best be getting to building yourself some walls. The poor people are getting poorer, and there are a lot of guns floating around out there. I don't envy your shoes.

We aren't this desperate here in the states yet, but look what happened in Pakistan.

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/06/25/534282047/at-least-1
23-people-killed-after-oil-truck-catches-fire-in-pakistan


How much money could possibly have been in that overturned tanker?

How much money do you think they thought they were going to carry away in pots and pans?

I wouldn't go around telling people you got billions of dollars of oil that you're sitting on.

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Tuesday, June 27, 2017 12:02 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by 6stringJoker:
Hey genius. I don't care what the money is being spent on or where they say they are getting it. When we are spending 1 Trillion more per year than we are making as a nation, that money is being printed.

You have an incorrect understanding of how rich people make their money and are taxed. I have another example which you will misunderstand.

Last week John Kopchick donated $10.5 million to the University of Texas MD Anderson Cancer Center, his alma mater. He identified a compound that inhibits the human growth hormone that can lead to a condition called acromegaly, more commonly known as gigantism. The drug is now marketed by Pfizer under the name Somavert. If you divide the number of hours he worked on Somavert by his net worth, he was paid about a million dollars per hour. Pfizer is doing even better than Kopchick at extracting large amounts of money from sick people, completely out of proportion to the actual work done. Trumpcare will decide how much Kopchick and Pfizer will pay in taxes to support Medicaid. Kopchick and Pfizer are extracting money from sick people. There is no magic here and no money being mysteriously printed at the Federal Reserve to cover what these sick people around the world are paying Kopchick. Trumpcare, if it passes, means that none of that money, zero, nada, will be specifically taxed to pay for Medicaid. That is very good for rich Kopchick and very bad for poor Medicaid.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Tuesday, June 27, 2017 1:20 AM

6STRINGJOKER


I get exactly what you're trying to say. I don't need any more of your examples that all say the same thing over and over.

What I am telling you is that it's all moot where the actual legitimate money comes from and where it goes when we are printing over a Trillion Dollars a year since the Obama administration.

We are dangerously close to the point that entirety of taxes generated on a yearly basis is paying for nothing more than the interest on the debts we owe.

When any politician tells you that any taxes collected are paying for anything other than the interest on these debts, they being disingenuous at best. This is a plan that was designed to fail, and the breaking point is very soon.


http://www.cnsnews.com/commentary/terence-p-jeffrey/44-percent-hike-ta
xes-covers-obama-era-debt



Article written on September 28, 2016

Quote:

This fiscal year ends Friday. The current law funding the federal government expires that day.

And that means Obama and the Republican Congress will be making another deal — to spend your money and borrow from your children.






And just for shits and giggs, here's another article explaining why comparing our deficit to the GDP is pure bullshit, and when it's compared to tax revenue we're the third worst in the world behind Japan and Greece.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffreydorfman/2014/07/12/forget-debt-as-
a-percent-of-gdp-its-really-much-worse/#19b4bcbb53ba


It also mentions that although they don't include Social Security liabilities in their numbers, they conveniently include the Social Security taxes we pay.

So when you equate the TRUTH into that statistic, the situation is even more dire.

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Tuesday, June 27, 2017 6:55 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by 6stringJoker:

I get exactly what you're trying to say. I don't need any more of your examples that all say the same thing over and over.

You are repeating the libertarian perspective of Mr. Jeffrey “taxation is theft” Dorfman.

I’m sorry to say that Dorfman is confusing you. Listen to a rich guy who wants Obamacare dead for more truthful reasons: Texas-based donor Doug Deason won’t pay the politicians until they "Get Obamacare repealed and replaced, get tax reform passed," Mr. Deason said in a pointed message to GOP leaders. "You control the Senate. You control the House. You have the presidency. There's no reason you can't get this done. Get it done and we'll open it back up."
www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/2017/0626/GOP-donors-close-checkbooks-u
rging-stronger-action-on-health-care-reform


Deason wants more money for himself. He is not worried about the size of the National Debt and interest. If you pay attention to only what the rich want, you will understand why Obamacare must die. There are many phony baloney explanations of why Obamacare must die. You should ignore those. Reality is Deason and what his kind want. Please show you’re smarter than Deason. Don't give him a tax cut, don't give him more money by killing Obamacare.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Tuesday, June 27, 2017 7:31 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Please show you’re smarter than Deason. Don't give him a tax cut, don't give him more money by killing Obamacare.
Is Mr Deason in the healthcare sector? Probably not. Because once the Senate version came out and it appeared that Obamacare would continue to be the law of the land, healthcare stocks went up.

The biggest backers of Obamacare are hospital corporations. That should tell you something.

-----------

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake

THUGR, JONESING FOR WWIII
All those guns 1kiki, are pointed towards your beloved Russia. All those cyber capabilities, pointed right at Russia. Thanks Putin, and get ready to duck.
I'll accept your apology any time, THUGR. But I know you're not man enough to give me one


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Tuesday, June 27, 2017 8:45 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

Please show you’re smarter than Deason. Don't give him a tax cut, don't give him more money by killing Obamacare.
Is Mr Deason in the healthcare sector? Probably not. Because once the Senate version came out and it appeared that Obamacare would continue to be the law of the land, healthcare stocks went up.

The biggest backers of Obamacare are hospital corporations. That should tell you something.

We got the insurance option in Obamacare because Joe Lieberman, the 60th vote in the Senate, wanted to protect Connecticut headquartered insurance companies. Trumpcare will be even better for insurance companies.
www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/prescriptions/2009/10/did_lie
berman_just_kill_the_public_option.html


When Trumpcare replaces Obamacare, premiums will increase. The insurance companies are run and owned by the top 1% and they make more money, so they will love Trumpcare even more than Obamacare:

www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2017/06/heres-the-tldr-version-of-the-r
epublican-health-care-bill
/


If the top 1% want a change in any laws (such as kill Obamacare) you will get screwed since you are not one of them. The 1% will tell you the change will be better for you, but you will certainly be misled and only find out the truth when it is too late.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Tuesday, June 27, 2017 10:28 AM

6STRINGJOKER


Quote:

Originally posted by second:
Quote:

Originally posted by 6stringJoker:

I get exactly what you're trying to say. I don't need any more of your examples that all say the same thing over and over.

You are repeating the libertarian perspective of Mr. Jeffrey “taxation is theft” Dorfman.

I’m sorry to say that Dorfman is confusing you. Listen to a rich guy who wants Obamacare dead for more truthful reasons: Texas-based donor Doug Deason won’t pay the politicians until they "Get Obamacare repealed and replaced, get tax reform passed," Mr. Deason said in a pointed message to GOP leaders. "You control the Senate. You control the House. You have the presidency. There's no reason you can't get this done. Get it done and we'll open it back up."
www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/2017/0626/GOP-donors-close-checkbooks-u
rging-stronger-action-on-health-care-reform


Deason wants more money for himself. He is not worried about the size of the National Debt and interest. If you pay attention to only what the rich want, you will understand why Obamacare must die. There are many phony baloney explanations of why Obamacare must die. You should ignore those. Reality is Deason and what his kind want. Please show you’re smarter than Deason. Don't give him a tax cut, don't give him more money by killing Obamacare.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly



I'm not repeating anything. I don't know who Jeffrey Dorfman is.

Taxation is theft, that is true, but the much larger theft is quantitative easing, which we've discussed in here before.

Obamacare is theft. Trumpcare will likely be theft.

Insurance companies need to disappear.

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Tuesday, June 27, 2017 11:38 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by 6stringJoker:

Taxation is theft, that is true, but the much larger theft is quantitative easing, which we've discussed in here before.

Obamacare is theft. Trumpcare will likely be theft.

Insurance companies need to disappear.

I have no hope in you. That "taxation is theft" notion of yours and the libertarians works to my advantage. I'd prefer to not pay sales tax, income tax, gasoline tax and property tax. But then again my money is highly portable and I could vacation in Canada for years while I watch the news of the "no tax" U.S.A. drifting downward to the poorly governed level of Mexico or the Philippines or Venezuela.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Tuesday, June 27, 2017 11:39 AM

6STRINGJOKER


Quote:

Originally posted by second:
Quote:

Originally posted by 6stringJoker:

Taxation is theft, that is true, but the much larger theft is quantitative easing, which we've discussed in here before.

Obamacare is theft. Trumpcare will likely be theft.

Insurance companies need to disappear.

I have no hope in you. That "taxation is theft" notion of yours and the libertarians works to my advantage. I'd prefer to not pay sales tax, income tax, gasoline tax and property tax. But then again my money is highly portable and I could vacation in Canada for years while I watch the news of the U.S.A. drifting downward to the poorly governed level of Mexico or the Philippines or Venezuela.



Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.


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Tuesday, June 27, 2017 11:45 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by 6stringJoker:

Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

I go back and forth to all those places all the time. Meanwhile you are trapped in your house. When was the last time you got two states away from home? Too much? One state away from home? When did you last get across the county line?

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Tuesday, June 27, 2017 12:03 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by 6stringJoker:

Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

Republican politicians believe that government should tax people less. The Senate bill would eliminate the 3.8 percent tax on investment income for those making over $250,000. Republican politicians believe that open-ended entitlements should be cut. The Senate health care plan would throw 15 million people off Medicaid, according to the Congressional Budget Office. (This is the program that covers nearly 40 percent of America’s children.)

Is there a vision of society underlying those choices? Not really. Most political parties define their vision of the role of government around their vision of the sort of country they would like to create. The current Republican Party has iron, dogmatic rules about the role of government, but no vision about America.

Because Republicans have no governing vision, they can’t really replace the Obama vision with some alternative. They just accept the basic structure of Obamacare and cut it back some.

Because Republicans have no governing vision, they can’t argue for their plans. Health and Human Services Secretary Tom Price came to the Aspen Ideas Festival to make the case for the G.O.P. approach. It’s not that he had bad arguments; he had no arguments, no vision for the sort of health care system these bills would usher in. He filled his time by rising to a level of vapid generality that was utterly detached from the choices in the actual legislation.

Because Republicans have no national vision, they seem largely uninterested in the actual effects their legislation would have on the country at large. This Senate bill would be completely unworkable because anybody with half a brain would get insurance only when they got sick.

Worse, this bill takes all of the devastating trends afflicting the middle and working classes — all the instability, all the struggle and pain — and it makes them worse. As the C.B.O. indicated, the Senate plan would throw 22 million people off the insurance roles. It would send them to private insurance plans that they could not afford to buy. Under the Senate bill, deductibles for poor families would be more than half of their annual income. The plans are so incompetently and cruelly designed that as the C.B.O. put it, “few low-income people would purchase any plan.”

This is not a conservative vision of American society. It’s a vision rendered cruel by its obliviousness. I have been trying to think about the underlying mentality that now governs the Republican political class. The best I can do is the atomistic mentality described by Alexis de Tocqueville long ago:

“They owe nothing to any man, they expect nothing from any man; they acquire the habit of always considering themselves as standing alone, and they are apt to imagine that their whole destiny is in their own hands. Thus not only does democracy make every man forget his ancestors, but it hides his descendants and separates his contemporaries from him; it throws him back forever upon himself alone and threatens in the end to confine him entirely within the solitude of his own heart.”

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Tuesday, June 27, 2017 1:01 PM

6STRINGJOKER


I'm not even arguing for Trump care. I told you that we need to get rid of insurance companies all together. I don't think we really have much to argue about on this topic really, except for the fact that you seem to like Obamacare as it is since it doesn't effect you and your billions much.

I'm not sure how we got off on this tangent, but you always do this so I'm not surprised.

My argument is that Barack Obama needs to STFU and go away, and that no ex-president has talked shit about the sitting president before. You brought up a snopes article with more "anonymous sources"... yanno.... like the ones that CNN is getting in hot water now for citing all the time.


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Tuesday, June 27, 2017 2:54 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


SIX, I'd like to expand your point, but in another direction. Taxation is theft" is just a bastardized version of the more fundamental Property is theft". The point of that, of course is that once I acquire something and claim it as my own (and a society its laws and enforcers allow me to do that) then I have prevented someone else from using the same goods.

One of the problems that I have with libertarians is that they reduce everything to property relationships and sales in a marketplace, to the point where they think of themselves as "owning" themselves and "owning" their ideas; it's very individualistic and atomized and it it no way reflects how humans actually behave. Nor does it allow other resource relationships, such as "the commons". Just wanted to point that out.

SECOND, your argument is too simplistic. You ASSUME that more taxes on the wealthy = good, and less taxes on the wealthy = bad. But that assumes that the government is going to redistribute downwards in some beneficent way, and not just redistribute among the wealthy or put towards some heinous goal.

-----------

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake

THUGR, JONESING FOR WWIII
All those guns 1kiki, are pointed towards your beloved Russia. All those cyber capabilities, pointed right at Russia. Thanks Putin, and get ready to duck.
I'll accept your apology any time, THUGR. But I know you're not man enough to give me one


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Tuesday, June 27, 2017 6:06 PM

6STRINGJOKER


Quote:

Originally posted by G:
Until we can get rid of Insurance companies we'll have TrumpSteaksCare = second wins, we loose. Do you blame second of Trump?

And what's with your new obsession with Obama talking too much? I haven't seen him say anything since Trump got in office. What are you watching?



I don't blame second at all. I don't blame Trump any more than I blame Obama.


As for your second question, did you bother reading the thread title? This is at least the third time Barry has had something to say about what Trump is doing.

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Tuesday, June 27, 2017 6:15 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Good !


I want my money back. Even though I'm not rich, I still want my fair share.

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Tuesday, June 27, 2017 9:49 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:

SECOND, your argument is too simplistic. You ASSUME that more taxes on the wealthy = good, and less taxes on the wealthy = bad. But that assumes that the government is going to redistribute downwards in some beneficent way, and not just redistribute among the wealthy or put towards some heinous goal.

Obviously my arguments are simplistic. You think I'm seeking feedback at fireflyfans for my next book on the philosophy of Capitalism? Here is another factoid that I can't be bothered to turn into a complete argument: "Warren Buffett says 'the real problem' with the US economy is people like him."
www.cnbc.com/2017/06/27/warren-buffett-says-the-problem-with-the-econo
my-is-people-like-him.html


With a net worth of more than $75 billion, Buffett is currently the second richest man alive, according to Forbes.

"The real problem, in my view, is — this has been — the prosperity has been unbelievable for the extremely rich people," says Buffett on PBS Newshour.

"If you go to 1982, when Forbes put on their first 400 list, those people had a total of $93 billion. They now have $2.4 trillion, a multiple of 25 for one," he says. "This has been a prosperity that's been disproportionately rewarding to the people on top."

If you place enormous wealth into the control of a small and unwise group that has no accountability to anyone but themselves (unlike state and federal governments that can be in theory changed) then kill Obamacare so that enormous wealth will increase at 3.5% faster than it would have if Obamacare was not cut, the USA will get the poor results for the lower 80% of the population that 6StringJoker and Signym dislike.

If the middle class wants to give the wealthy a tax break, go ahead and do it. The wealthy won't thank you and won't show their appreciation by looking after your health care needs, at least not unless you pay them.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Tuesday, June 27, 2017 11:45 PM

6STRINGJOKER


Quote:

Originally posted by G:
Quote:

Originally posted by 6stringJoker:

As for your second question, did you bother reading the thread title? This is at least the third time Barry has had something to say about what Trump is doing.



Yes, I thought you were quoting Fox like a good little stooge.

Pls post links for all of these Obama talking tirades you keep mentioning or you're a lying sh*t - easy.

==============================



Obama after the Paris Accords withdrawl: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2017/06/01/obamas
-harsh-words-for-trump-after-paris-withdrawal/?utm_term=.fd326e39ec1d


Quote:

But even in the absence of American leadership; even as this Administration joins a small handful of nations that reject the future; I’m confident that our states, cities, and businesses will step up and do even more to lead the way, and help protect for future generations the one planet we’ve got.


"Trump keeps proving he's unfit to be president": http://www.bbc.com/news/av/election-us-2016-36958307/obama-trump-keeps
-proving-he-s-unfit-to-be-president


See video for quotes.

"Meanness at the Core": http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/politics/ct-obama-slams
-trump-gop-health-care-20170622-story.html


Quote:

The plan is "not a health care bill," Obama declared in a 939-word message to his nearly 53 million followers on Facebook. "It's a massive transfer of wealth from middle-class and poor families to the richest people in America."


Never before have we seen this from an ex-president.

I believe you when you say you're unaware of this happening. Here's your proof, from various sources, not fox news, and from the mouth of Obama himself.

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Wednesday, June 28, 2017 3:31 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


Yeah, I wonder about that. Since the transfer of power (I couldn't finish saying that with a straight face), I haven't heard much from Obama, even when Fuck-Face
accused him of wiretapping his humble abode.

Must be all those "dog-whistles" these guys hear, it's got them trained so well that they hear things no one else does. Oh well. Actually I would advise Obama, just let it be. "You'll see" I'll tell him, just don't say anything, it'll all be over soon.

Orange will Mos Def be the new black.


SGG


Quote:

Originally posted by reaverfan:
Quote:

Originally posted by 6stringJoker:
I'm not even talking about the subject of Trumpcare vs Obamacare.

Never before in history did the ex-president have a big fucking mouth like Obama. It's time for him to shut it and go away.

Audacity indeed.

You've got to be kidding. Talk about selective memory.


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Wednesday, June 28, 2017 3:40 AM

6STRINGJOKER


Quote:

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Yeah, I wonder about that. Since the transfer of power (I couldn't finish saying that with a straight face), I haven't heard much from Obama, even when Fuck-Face
accused him of wiretapping his humble abode.

Must be all those "dog-whistles" these guys hear, it's got them trained so well that they hear things no one else does. Oh well. Actually I would advise Obama, just let it be. "You'll see" I'll tell him, just don't say anything, it'll all be over soon.

Orange will Mos Def be the new black.



Obama after the Paris Accords withdrawl: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2017/06/01/obamas
-harsh-words-for-trump-after-paris-withdrawal/?utm_term=.fd326e39ec1d


Quote:

But even in the absence of American leadership; even as this Administration joins a small handful of nations that reject the future; I’m confident that our states, cities, and businesses will step up and do even more to lead the way, and help protect for future generations the one planet we’ve got.


"Trump keeps proving he's unfit to be president": http://www.bbc.com/news/av/election-us-2016-36958307/obama-trump-keeps
-proving-he-s-unfit-to-be-president


See video for quotes.

"Meanness at the Core": http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/politics/ct-obama-slams
-trump-gop-health-care-20170622-story.html


Quote:

The plan is "not a health care bill," Obama declared in a 939-word message to his nearly 53 million followers on Facebook. "It's a massive transfer of wealth from middle-class and poor families to the richest people in America."


Never before have we seen this from an ex-president.

I believe you when you say you're unaware of this happening. Here's your proof, from various sources, not fox news, and from the mouth of Obama himself.

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Wednesday, June 28, 2017 7:53 AM

REAVERFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by 6stringJoker:

Never before have we seen this from an ex-president.

LOL!

You're completely delusional. I'm afraid your damage is permanent.

'There have been exceptions to the veneer of politeness we expect of former presidents. For example, when Teddy Roosevelt was disappointed that his handpicked successor, William Howard Taft, was abandoning TR’s pioneering progressivism, he attacked him as a “fathead,” a “puzzle wit” (apparently, an insult 100 years ago) and having “brains less than a guinea pig.”'

'George W. Bush, who for eight years refused to comment on the Obama presidency, has taken the lead. Bush took issue with Trump’s immigration policy, his name calling, and his characterization of the media as the “enemy of the people.”

“I consider the media to be indispensible to democracy,” Bush said. “We need an independent media to hold people like me accountable.”'

http://www.newsweek.com/former-presidents-should-lead-criticism-trump-
590829


Of course, it is ironic that Bush would talk about media holding him accountable when it absolutely didn't.

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Wednesday, June 28, 2017 8:08 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by 6stringJoker:

Never before have we seen this from an ex-president.

I believe you when you say you're unaware of this happening. Here's your proof, from various sources, not fox news, and from the mouth of Obama himself.

Trump is intolerant of criticism, as are Republicans intolerant of criticism of Trump. Mitch McConnell told Trump to stay out of health care negotiations in the Senate, but Trump couldn’t help himself. After Sen. Dean Heller of Nevada announced that he would vote against Trumpcare for much the same reasons given by Obama, Trump gave the OK to a Super PAC to run attack ads against Heller.

Over the weekend, Mr. McConnell made clear his unhappiness to the White House after a “super PAC” aligned with Mr. Trump started an ad campaign against Senator Dean Heller, Republican of Nevada, after he said last week that he opposed the health care bill.

The majority leader — already rankled by Mr. Trump’s tweets goading him to change Senate rules to scuttle Democratic filibusters — called the White House chief of staff, Reince Priebus, to complain that the attacks were “beyond stupid,” according to two Republicans with knowledge of the tense exchange.

….The move against Mr. Heller had the blessing of the White House, according to an official with America First, because Mr. Trump’s allies were furious that the senator would side with Nevada’s governor, Brian Sandoval, a Republican who accepted the Medicaid expansion under the health law and opposes the Republican overhaul, in criticizing the bill.
www.nytimes.com/2017/06/27/us/health-care-bill-trump-pence.html

And GOP President Herbert Hoover spent 31 years calling Democrat President FDR a traitor in public. FDR was dead for 20 of those year, but that didn't stop Hoover from complaining. Hoover's final complaint was his magnum opus Freedom Betrayed, against (you guessed it) FDR.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_Hoover#Opposition_to_Roosevelt

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Wednesday, June 28, 2017 9:48 AM

REAVERFAN


You are aware, are you not, that if this healthcare bill goes through, you'll be fucked really hard?

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Wednesday, June 28, 2017 10:36 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Obviously my arguments are simplistic. You think I'm seeking feedback at fireflyfans for my next book on the philosophy of Capitalism? - SECOND
Which is why I don't pay too much attention to your posts. First of all, you misunderstood my post. I wasn't describing capitalism, I was describing GOVERNMENT, and what it does - or doesn't do- with tax revenues.

Again, you ASSUME that all of your proposed increased revenue will be going to something "fair" or "beneficial" to the people at large. But, since you can see that about half of our government expenditures are siphoned off into the military maybe your assumption is wrong. Maybe our government is as much of "the problem" as it is of "the solution".

And even if the government were to do something broadly useful with the increased tax revenues, there's no guarantee that it would continue to do so - just look at the UK government and how it's made a hash of their healthcare system and is busy now paying interest to private banks for terrible loans that it took out in order to "privatize" itself: it has turned into nothing so much as an armed revenue-stream for banks.

I agree that business is NOT in the business of serving "the people"; it only serves the interests of business owners (and only the short-term interests at that, since the wealthy seem remarkably unable to understand that their prosperity ultimately depends on being in a prosperous economy). So if there is any entity at all that MIGHT serve the common good, it would be government.

However, simply by looking at fascist governments of the past and our modern-day oligarchy, we can say that simply being "government" is no guarantee of serving the needs of the people either, therefore I would say that being "government" is a necessary BUT NOT SUFFICIENT qualification for placing our taxes in its hands. There has to be another process on top of that: a very durable feedback loop that we can count on to guide government ... and democracy isn't it, either, because clearly it has been bypassed by the wealthy.

Quote:

"The real problem, in my view, is — this has been — the prosperity has been unbelievable for the extremely rich people," says Buffett on PBS Newshour.
So now we get to capitalism .... or, what passes for capitalism, anyway.

Maybe the solution ISN'T on the "more tax - less tax" axis.

Instead of allowing a small set of people to suck the wealth out of an entire population, and then tax that money into a highly centralized government - which will decide in a non-democratic fashion what to do with all of that extra money - maybe the REAL solution is to look at how a few people became so fabulously rich in the first place, and short-circuit THOSE processes.


In any case, Congress as a whole is not about to pass any sort of "repeal-replace" legislation any time soon. Obamacare will continue to decay. Democrats will continue to chase after "RUSSIA!" instead of coming up with REAL solutions to REAL problems in hope of gathering up votes that fall off the GOP table. I can't imagine how this clusterfuck is going to end well for us people.




-----------

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake

THUGR, JONESING FOR WWIII
All those guns 1kiki, are pointed towards your beloved Russia. All those cyber capabilities, pointed right at Russia. Thanks Putin, and get ready to duck.
I'll accept your apology any time, THUGR. But I know you're not man enough to give me one


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Wednesday, June 28, 2017 11:52 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

Obviously my arguments are simplistic. You think I'm seeking feedback at fireflyfans for my next book on the philosophy of Capitalism? - SECOND
Which is why I don't pay too much attention to your posts. First of all, you misunderstood my post. I wasn't describing capitalism, I was describing GOVERNMENT, and what it does - or doesn't do- with tax revenues.

Again, you ASSUME that all of your proposed increased revenue will be going to something "fair" or "beneficial" to the people at large. But, since you can see that about half of our government expenditures are siphoned off into the military maybe your assumption is wrong. Maybe our government is as much of "the problem" as it is of "the solution".

You are the master at giving long answers. What you're doing is complaining about humanity's generalized perfidy, but some political parties are more truthful than others. The 3.8% Obamacare tax would be spent on Obamacare by Democrats because they are sincere, while Republicans could use accounting shenanigans to buy with that money, for example, a gold-plated Navy because that is what the GOP wants. Trump is the master of shenanigans. He may live long enough to see an aircraft carrier named the USS Donald J. Trump. Bush lived to see the USS George H.W. Bush.
www.foxnews.com/story/2009/01/10/aircraft-carrier-named-uss-george-hw-
bush-commissioned.html


The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Wednesday, June 28, 2017 12:28 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

The 3.8% Obamacare tax would be spent on Obamacare unconscionable pharma profits and healthcare insurance margins by Democrats because they are sincere beholden to their corporate sponsors


Short enough for you?

That's a little bit like our "foreign aid" .... we give other nations money so that they can buy our weapons systems or start producing chickens for Tyson. See how that works? Our tax money money makes two short steps (taxes > aid > foreign recipient > corporation) before it goes to big corporations. And that's by formal agreement - there's nothing unintentional about it. Just like Obamacare!

SO, HOW WOULD YOU LIKE YOUR TAXES REDISTRIBUTED TO BIG PHARMA? Because that's what would happen: a redistribution from some wealthy to other wealthy.

If Dems would do something about high prices ... like maybe requiring hospitals and other service providers to list set costs for frequent procedures or providing real competition for insurance dollars .... that would be better than just shoveling tax money at the insurances.

-----------

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake

THUGR, JONESING FOR WWIII
All those guns 1kiki, are pointed towards your beloved Russia. All those cyber capabilities, pointed right at Russia. Thanks Putin, and get ready to duck.
I'll accept your apology any time, THUGR. But I know you're not man enough to give me one


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Wednesday, June 28, 2017 1:28 PM

6STRINGJOKER


Quote:

Originally posted by reaverfan:
You are aware, are you not, that if this healthcare bill goes through, you'll be fucked really hard?




Really? How so?

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Wednesday, June 28, 2017 5:50 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:

If Dems would do something about high prices ... like maybe requiring hospitals and other service providers to list set costs for frequent procedures or providing real competition for insurance dollars .... that would be better than just shoveling tax money at the insurances.

The way Democrats could lower prices is pass legislation over the objection of every single Republican and Trump. So Dems need 67 Senators to override a Trump veto . . . hmmm, and they have only 48 . . . hmmm. I think the math makes your daydream less likely than Serenity 2 being released next Summer, even assuming Joss is filming it in secret now.

Why can’t Trump make deals in Washington? The big problem is he has no idea what he’s talking about. Trump doesn’t know anything about the policy issues at stake:
Quote:

A senator who supports the bill left the meeting at the White House with a sense that the president did not have a grasp of some basic elements of the Senate plan — and seemed especially confused when a moderate Republican complained that opponents of the bill would cast it as a massive tax break for the wealthy, according to an aide who received a detailed readout of the exchange.

Mr. Trump said he planned to tackle tax reform later, ignoring the repeal’s tax implications, the staff member added.

www.nytimes.com/2017/06/27/us/health-care-bill-trump-pence.html

The health care bill is an enormous tax cut for wealthy households and corporations masquerading as health care policy. Understanding this is absolutely central to everything that senators are arguing about and why Obama called Trumpcare a massive transfer of wealth.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Wednesday, June 28, 2017 10:27 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


SECOND: AS I HAVE SAID ABOUT A DOZEN TIMES BY NOW, the Dems need to PROPOSE A PLAN, and KEEP proposing their plan, and it must be made public REPEATEDLY. They will not be able to pass anything, but if they have a solid plan and if it makes sense to the people, they will WIN VOTES the next time around. Because then people will feel that they're voting FOR something instead of against something.

I shouldn't have to give you the same answer a dozen times and have you STILL not be able to move the conversation forward!

So, are you actually able to learn? Or will you keep cycling back to your same stupid points over and over again (Trump lies! Trump is Russia's stooge! Trump won't be able to fix the economy! Trump is for the rich people!)
like some sort of wound-up propaganda doll???

-----------

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake

THUGR, JONESING FOR WWIII
All those guns 1kiki, are pointed towards your beloved Russia. All those cyber capabilities, pointed right at Russia. Thanks Putin, and get ready to duck.
I'll accept your apology any time, THUGR. But I know you're not man enough to give me one


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Friday, June 30, 2017 12:44 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


Thanks Second. I'm about to answer to Siggy's "response," but I ask you, since you've had dealings with her(?) in the past more so than me: did you ever get the one where she(?) claims "you" are insulting and negative; then she turns around and
is vulgar, insulting and negative?

I'm just curious if it's me or if this is her modus operandi.

Full Disclosure: I've lost my temper and usual calm demeanor and more than one occasion, and have let her have it with both barrels. I'm not one to hurl insults and barbs easily. I could deal with people disagreeing with me, I prefer good honest debate than someone "kissing my ass" over an issue or topic, but I don't relish personal insults or accusations of drunkenness, it's just not my cup o' tea.
I also have the tendency of sarcastic barbs and cryptic messages whenever I feel that "you" gone too far and far afield. I often get a kick out of confusing the hell out of my verbal opponents. By the way, I'm posting this purposely, but I wanted to get a little feedback from you because I see (from watching you two often dueling in this arena) that you take no shit from our "comrades," our fellow admirers of Firefly. Thanks in advance.

If you prefer to PM me, let me know.


SGG


Quote:

Originally posted by second:
Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

I have two questions:

1- Where did you get that chart?

Mother Jones website, I forget the article, but if you want to see the link to the picture just right-click on the image, then "copy" to any text editor and it will show you the source (Mother Jones).

There are ten more charts in the article "11 Charts That Show Income Inequality Isn’t Getting Better Anytime Soon"
www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/12/america-income-inequality-wealth-
net-worth-charts
/

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


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Friday, June 30, 2017 12:27 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Meanwhile, we see that UNDER OBAMA the massive transfer of wealth to the wealthy continued unabated.

I expect that this will continue under Trump, the only difference being that it will go to a different set of the wealthy.

So, which political party will REALLY stanch the flow? Will the Dems step up to the plate and start proposing real reform instead of fake reform? Or will they continue to lock themselves in a struggle with Trump over fake issues like his alleged "collusion" with Russia?


******

SHINY - I make a serious effort not to name-call except in response. I do slip up on occasion, just as you do, when I find myself going over the same ground over and over, having to repeat myself a dozen times (or more) while people STILL put words in my mouth - claiming that I've posted things that I haven't - or fail to respond directly to a point.

I'll try to do better in the future.

-----------

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake

THUGR, JONESING FOR WWIII
All those guns 1kiki, are pointed towards your beloved Russia. All those cyber capabilities, pointed right at Russia. Thanks Putin, and get ready to duck.
I'll accept your apology any time, THUGR. But I know you're not man enough to give me one


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Friday, June 30, 2017 1:30 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
SECOND: AS I HAVE SAID ABOUT A DOZEN TIMES BY NOW, the Dems need to PROPOSE A PLAN, and KEEP proposing their plan, and it must be made public REPEATEDLY. They will not be able to pass anything, but if they have a solid plan and if it makes sense to the people, they will WIN VOTES the next time around. Because then people will feel that they're voting FOR something instead of against something.

I shouldn't have to give you the same answer a dozen times and have you STILL not be able to move the conversation forward!

So, are you actually able to learn? Or will you keep cycling back to your same stupid points over and over again (Trump lies! Trump is Russia's stooge! Trump won't be able to fix the economy! Trump is for the rich people!)
like some sort of wound-up propaganda doll???

I saw an interesting article today: "How do congressional Democrats want to fix Obamacare? We asked 8 of them."
www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/6/30/15878560/congressional-democ
rats-fix-obamacare


Sadly, Democratic politicians have been too polite when they should (if they truly believed what Bernie said about Trumpcare) kick a Republican Senator in the groin as a patriotic duty. Bernie is the closest thing Democrats have got to a fire-breathing leader and he isn't even a Democrat, but an Independent. Democratic Senators need to learn a few rhetorical tricks from a Rabble-rouser like Bernie.
www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/sanders-pittsburgh-anti-trumpcare_us_594f
16bee4b05c37bb76d176


If Hillary was President, Obamacare would still be a mess because there aren't 60 Senators to vote their approval for any improvements that have been needed for 7 years. It is the same old problem written into the Constitution and Congress' rules for hundreds of years.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Friday, June 30, 2017 2:16 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


These were mentioned in the article:


1) Keeping Federal funding the same

2) A tougher individual mandate. Require that healthy young people ante up so that older or sicker people can get care.

3) Provide an even WORSE plan ("copper plan") on the exchanges

4) Better patient education on how to avoid the ER and live more healthfully

5) "Come up with some solutions" "brainstorm"

6) Sell insurances across state lines

7) Bring down drug prices

8) "Payment reform" (I have no idea what that means)

9) Reinsurance for the exchanges



******

That's it???

The only idea worth discussing is negotiating with pharma for better pricing.

Have you ever looked at your Rx bill?
With insurance: $10.
Without insurance $300.

That's insane

Same thing with medical service providers. Ever compare your bill with someone else who has different insurance (or no insurance)? For you, they charge a $5000. If you pay cash, its $10,000. Your neighbor, who has a different policy, is billed $500.

The Federal government needs to be able to require standard pricing with hospitals, doctor groups, laboratories etc. It's not like they need to start from scratch! They can look at the current Medicare program where every procedure and every allowable charge is spelled out in great detail.

I realize that costs are different in different parts of the country, but if you want a quick metric on how to adjust prices for that county, just look at average housing costs.

And then, there are the "super -users" - the roughly 1-5% of the population which uses 50% of ER resources - usually the chronically ill addicted/ mentally ill homeless who crash in the ER with great regularity. It would probably cost a great deal less to get these people into "harm reduction" housing where they can be treated more effectively.


What are these Congresspeople doing, that they can't come up with anything better? Hell, I don't have access to the data that they do. I don't have the time that they (or their staffers) do. I can't ask the CBO or some other organization to "run the numbers" on a particular proposal. But maybe they're just too busy fundraising - or with RUSSIA! -to deal with this small matter.

If that sounds pissed off, it is.


-----------

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake

THUGR, JONESING FOR WWIII
All those guns 1kiki, are pointed towards your beloved Russia. All those cyber capabilities, pointed right at Russia. Thanks Putin, and get ready to duck.
I'll accept your apology any time, THUGR. But I know you're not man enough to give me one


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Friday, June 30, 2017 2:57 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Uh huh.

Do you see that trend under Obama (2008-2016) when wealth was redistributed back downwards?



Yeah, me neither.
What a hypocrite.

Here's another curious observation: Do you that that BIG transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich under Clinton, when most working people thought they were doing pretty well?

In reality, the trend does seem to stay pretty much the same, whether there's Dems or Repubs in the WH or Congress.



GDP per Capita (US$)

Country 1975 1980 1985 1990 1998

Russia 2,555 3,654 3,463 3,668 2,138

United States 19,364 21,529 23,200 25,363 29,683







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Friday, June 30, 2017 3:02 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:

The only idea worth discussing is negotiating with pharma for better pricing.

That's insane

What are these Congresspeople doing, that they can't come up with anything better?

If that sounds pissed off, it is.

Another article, published today, about Democrats failing to reform health care in California:
https://theintercept.com/2017/06/30/california-single-payer-organizers
-are-deceiving-their-supporters-its-time-to-stop
/

Every California single-payer bill in the last 25 years (there has been at least seven) failed because they never include a funding mechanism. Substituting a centralized state program for the skyrocketing premiums people pay today would actually be relatively affordable, but there is a constitutional hurdle, known as Proposition 98, passed in 1988 that gets in the way of the Democrats.

My editorial would be that the Federal Constitution and the California Constitution prevent problems from being solved. That was not the intention of the writers of these documents, but that is the results. "The proof of the pudding is in the eating" is the applicable proverb.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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