REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

The Real Immigrants

POSTED BY: SHINYGOODGUY
UPDATED: Sunday, October 17, 2021 19:51
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Monday, April 24, 2017 2:15 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


Attached find a story about the Native Americans who once numbered more than 20,000 in a village known as Etzanoa...

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/its-location-a-mystery-for-centuries-
huge-indian-city-is-found-in-kansas/ar-BBAdr7v?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartandhp


Makes you think about who the real immigrants are in this country. There were tribes known as Kanza, Wichita, Pawnee, Kiowa, Cheyenne and Apache. They roamed the middle of the country and developed cities in the tens of thousands.

Anyway, I think it's something that everyone is aware of, but may refuse to accept reality. Contrary to popular belief, the first Americans were not white. They were natives of color and they were here long before the Vikings and Columbus ever set foot on this land. The discovery of this town of natives in Kansas (Kansa people or people of the south wind) is considered a major discovery and part of the rich history of the native people who thrived here long ago.


SGG

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Monday, April 24, 2017 3:39 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


Thank you Brenda. By the way, I was referring to the "peoples" mentioned in the article, the natives of the midwest. I know that "human beings" that were here long before, lived throughout the land from sea to shining sea - in the east coast there lived the Algonquin tribes of New England - Abenaki, Pawtucket, Massachuset, Narranganset, Pequot and Wampanoag. The Iroquois - Mohawk, the Oneida, the Onondaga, the Cayuga and the Seneca and the Powhatan. There were also the Delawares - which included the Hackensack and Tappan tribes. In lower Manhattan (derived from Manahatta, which means "hilly island") live the Lenapes, who traded with other tribes up and down the "Shatemuc" or Hudson River.


SGG


P.S. In Puerto Rico and the Dominican Republic, there lived the Taino Indians, a subgroup of Arawakan Indians, a group of American Indians in Northeastern South America.


Quote:

Originally posted by Brenda:
Thank you for the article, which I will read in more detail tomorrow. I think I knew there were cities in the mid-west but didn't know who built them. And I would have read that a long time ago hence the haze of my memory.

There weren't just peoples in the what you call the "Mid-West" now but coastal peoples in the Pacific NorthWest. Haida, Tlingit. Dene in Alaska, Mandan, Crow, Choctaw, Chickasaw, Cherokee, Iroquois. To name but a few and mine own of course, Shoshoni.

We were here long before.


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Monday, April 24, 2017 4:00 AM

6STRINGJOKER


White guilt much, snowflake?

Quote:

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Contrary to popular belief, the first Americans were not white.



Nobody believes that the first Americans were white. Not one single person.

Only SJW college professors and those they brainwash believe that anybody else actually believes that.

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Monday, April 24, 2017 6:27 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Hmmmm.... actually, the first inhabitants of the Americas may not have originated in Asia, but elsewhere.

http://www.history.com/news/new-study-refutes-theory-of-how-humans-pop
ulated-north-america


But it's an area of active study. The timeline of human habitation was proposed to go back even further .... 10,000 years earlier .... to 24,000 years ago, not the accepted 14,000 years ago. The genetics of modern native Americans can be traced back to various 8,000 - 14,000 year-old fossils, but since there are no human fossils from 24,000 years ago, simply indications of human activity, the question is unresolved who the "earliest" people were.



-----------

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake

THUGR, JONESING FOR WWIII
All those guns 1kiki, are pointed towards your beloved Russia. All those cyber capabilities, pointed right at Russia. Thanks Putin, and get ready to duck.


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Monday, April 24, 2017 10:02 AM

RIVERLOVE


Quote:

Originally posted by 6stringJoker:
White guilt much, snowflake?

Quote:

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Contrary to popular belief, the first Americans were not white.



Nobody believes that the first Americans were white. Not one single person.


People who never saw Little Big Man or Dances With Wolves might. Whole lotta dummies out there.

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Monday, April 24, 2017 11:36 AM

6STRINGJOKER


Quote:

Originally posted by Riverlove:
Quote:

Originally posted by 6stringJoker:
White guilt much, snowflake?

Quote:

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Contrary to popular belief, the first Americans were not white.



Nobody believes that the first Americans were white. Not one single person.


People who never saw Little Big Man or Dances With Wolves might. Whole lotta dummies out there.



Maybe minorities.

Trust me. There is not a single white person that went through public school in America that doesn't know that whites weren't here first.

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Monday, April 24, 2017 12:36 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM: Monday, April 24, 2017 6:27 AM
Hmmmm.... actually, the first inhabitants of the Americas may not have originated in Asia, but elsewhere.

http://www.history.com/news/new-study-refutes-theory-of-how-humans-pop
ulated-north-america


But it's an area of active study. The timeline of human habitation was proposed to go back even further .... 10,000 years earlier .... to 24,000 years ago, not the accepted 14,000 years ago. The genetics of modern native Americans can be traced back to various 8,000 - 14,000 year-old fossils, but since there are no human fossils from 24,000 years ago, simply indications of human activity, the question is unresolved who the "earliest" people were.

Quote:

Originally posted by G: Monday, April 24, 2017 12:31 PM
Well... hmmmm.... actually, the first inhabitants of the Americas may not have originated in Asia, but elsewhere.

The genetics of modern native Americans can be traced back to various 8,000 - 14,000 year-old fossils, but since there are no human fossils from 24,000 years ago, simply indications of human activity, the question is unresolved who the "earliest" people were.



Thanks for selectively quoting Signy without attribution and without the link.




Care to try addressing the facts, again?

Or do you shoot nothing but blanks?


Originally posted by G:
"I coined the slogan "We Suck!"© many years ago."
G is an avowed Putin-loving, pro-Russian, anti-American troll.

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Monday, April 24, 2017 12:52 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


In any case, it's unlikely that the first N American inhabitants were "white". There is speculation that they could have come from across the Pacific by boat- from northern Japan, or southeast Asia, or maybe Polynesia. Possibly "aboriginals" if that is the case. Much more work needs to be done.

But yanno, it's not like the 14,000 year-old "natives" were so great either. Populations and cultures disappeared regularly, and bones indicate the presence of warfare. I don't think there are many cultures that can claim to not have displaced someone somewhere unless you are truly The First. Even Homo sapiens sapiens displaced Neadertal and Denisovans; seems as if very few of us have any claim to holiness except maybe the Australian aborigines and the Ainu.

-----------

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake

THUGR, JONESING FOR WWIII
All those guns 1kiki, are pointed towards your beloved Russia. All those cyber capabilities, pointed right at Russia. Thanks Putin, and get ready to duck.


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Monday, April 24, 2017 3:06 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Thanks for selectively quoting Signy without attribution and without the link. - KIKI
Thanks for being a lying sack of go se without the guts to defend yourself. GSTRING



Just saving this for posterity to demonstrate that YOU'RE a lying sack of shit, GSTRING.
Quote:

Well... hmmmm.... actually, the first inhabitants of the Americas may not have originated in Asia, but elsewhere.

The genetics of modern native Americans can be traced back to various 8,000 - 14,000 year-old fossils, but since there are no human fossils from 24,000 years ago, simply indications of human activity, the question is unresolved who the "earliest" people were.



However, to reiterate my point, there are very few cultures, "races" (whatever that is), civilizations - or even species- which can claim the moral high ground. It's like when I hear Hispanic calling themselves "natives" without recognizing that they wiped out the previous natives.

-----------

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake

THUGR, JONESING FOR WWIII
All those guns 1kiki, are pointed towards your beloved Russia. All those cyber capabilities, pointed right at Russia. Thanks Putin, and get ready to duck.


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Monday, April 24, 2017 5:19 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:

Just saving this for posterity to demonstrate that YOU'RE a lying sack of shit, GSTRING.






G: Looks can be deceiving.

SIG: Not as deceiving as a low down, dirty... deceiver.

G: Well said. Wasn't that well said, everyone?

T: It had a kinda poetry to it, G.






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Monday, April 24, 2017 5:51 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.







Care to try addressing the facts, again?

Or do you shoot nothing but blanks?


Originally posted by G:
"I coined the slogan "We Suck!"© many years ago."
G is an avowed Putin-loving, pro-Russian, anti-American troll.

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Tuesday, April 25, 2017 1:26 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


Oh jeez, my prejudice was showing........gotta fix that!


SGG


Quote:

Originally posted by 6stringJoker:
White guilt much, snowflake?

Quote:

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Contrary to popular belief, the first Americans were not white.



Nobody believes that the first Americans were white. Not one single person.

Only SJW college professors and those they brainwash believe that anybody else actually believes that.


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Tuesday, April 25, 2017 2:09 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


True that Brenda, the article was an interesting read. Unfortunately the discussion quickly devolved into a racial issue, which was not the intent of this posting. But there are those that take a moment of fascinating discovery about the history of this country and sling mud to detract and demean.

Popular belief and scholarly facts are generally diametrically opposed. But I guess you understand that more than most, because you smartly steer clear of any of the sophomoric discussions that dominate this site within the RWED. There are those, even so-called college educated people, that do not know everything. I sat in a class where a young woman stood in shock and disbelief when the professor pointed out how multinational corporations (mostly American based companies) would economically "rape" their host nation to the detriment of the people of that country. All in the name of more profits.

But I digress. The article was indeed good and raised an important question for the entire country to consider: How beautifully rich and varied is our nation? And how much more so with the people that contribute to it.

I'm glad you got something from it.


SGG


Quote:

Originally posted by Brenda:
Quote:

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Attached find a story about the Native Americans who once numbered more than 20,000 in a village known as Etzanoa...

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/its-location-a-mystery-for-centuries-
huge-indian-city-is-found-in-kansas/ar-BBAdr7v?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartandhp


Makes you think about who the real immigrants are in this country. There were tribes known as Kanza, Wichita, Pawnee, Kiowa, Cheyenne and Apache. They roamed the middle of the country and developed cities in the tens of thousands.

Anyway, I think it's something that everyone is aware of, but may refuse to accept reality. Contrary to popular belief, the first Americans were not white. They were natives of color and they were here long before the Vikings and Columbus ever set foot on this land. The discovery of this town of natives in Kansas (Kansa people or people of the south wind) is considered a major discovery and part of the rich history of the native people who thrived here long ago.


SGG



Took time to really read the article and it is very good and interesting. Many tribes were ravished by disease. The biggest killer being small pox.

The tribes that bordered Mexico were the first to get horses. They stole them from the Spaniards. Apache were well known for raiding into Mexico.



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Tuesday, April 25, 2017 7:32 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Brenda,
I am a little fuzzy on your geography, and how it relates to your references to Native Americans, or First nation peoples.

I would assume that most of the archeological record shows human inhabitants from about 14,000 years ago to now, as well as more than 30,000 years ago and prior. But showing humans very near the Great Lakes (or Hudson Bay) from about 15,000 to 30,000 yeas ago would surprise me.

How far are the human remains you mention, distance from the Great Lakes?

I also assume the same for the rest of North America - proximity to the Great Lakes would surprise me with much population before 14,000 years ago.

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Wednesday, April 26, 2017 2:29 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


Brenda, I commend you for your erudite response, it's refreshing!


SGG


Quote:

Originally posted by Brenda:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Brenda,
I am a little fuzzy on your geography, and how it relates to your references to Native Americans, or First nation peoples.

I would assume that most of the archeological record shows human inhabitants from about 14,000 years ago to now, as well as more than 30,000 years ago and prior. But showing humans very near the Great Lakes (or Hudson Bay) from about 15,000 to 30,000 yeas ago would surprise me.

How far are the human remains you mention, distance from the Great Lakes?

I also assume the same for the rest of North America - proximity to the Great Lakes would surprise me with much population before 14,000 years ago.



JSF,

I am in British Columbia. My interest n archaeology and study of the subject began BEFORE I found out my family was part American Indian. Then I switched my interest to this continent. So, I have a fair bit of knowledge at my disposal on the subject. When you study archaeology in Canada you learn about First Nations as the Native Canadians refer to themselves now. But I learned about American Indians first because that is where my family's blood comes from.

The oldest site that I know of comes in with Radio Carbon dating at 30,000years and that is in South America. It is known now that there was no ice free corridor and so the peoples who came to North America walked over the land bridge then walked down the coast line of what is now British Columbia. The northern half of this continent was covered in ice. Because of the ice there was no ocean. The seabed and the coast line were on the same level. The land was depressed because of the ice. People were inhabiting the interior of the continent at around 20,000 yrs.

This part of the world was peopled from South America up. Various groups came in at various times and moved across the land as the ice retreated. The last group to come into North America were the Inuit.

People would have moved into the area of the Great Lakes as the ice retreated.

Historical records and archaeological finds show us that the people who became known as the Iroquois Confederacy built towns in what is now the Province of Quebec.

And surely you know your history about what small pox did to the tribes that came into contact with the disease? Europeans had bene exposed to that contagion for generations and had some immunity to it. We didn't. It destroyed villages.

And yes horses were taken from more than just the Spaniards as were guns.

The peoples I mentioned are now in Alaska, Washington State, BC. Mine are split onto reservations in Wyoming, Nevada and Idaho. The other peoples I mentioned are in the mid-states and into Texas, I think.
These peoples still exist to this day. Like the Cheyenne, and the Dakota.



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Wednesday, April 26, 2017 2:48 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


Hey Brenda,

Quote:

I noticed.


I thought you would.

Quote:

...And I don't have the patience at times for trying to get a point across.


It's a lesson that I need to learn. Unfortunately, I'm too stubborn at times not to try and get my point across, when it would be wiser to let it go. But I'm working on it.

Quote:

The US and Canada are widely diverse countries even among the First Nations peoples here. The Iroquois Confederacy in Eastern Canada built towns that were protected by walls.


It is always a good thing to learn, and to learn something new.


SGG


Quote:

Originally posted by Brenda:
Quote:

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
True that Brenda, the article was an interesting read. Unfortunately the discussion quickly devolved into a racial issue, which was not the intent of this posting. But there are those that take a moment of fascinating discovery about the history of this country and sling mud to detract and demean.

Popular belief and scholarly facts are generally diametrically opposed. But I guess you understand that more than most, because you smartly steer clear of any of the sophomoric discussions that dominate this site within the RWED. There are those, even so-called college educated people, that do not know everything. I sat in a class where a young woman stood in shock and disbelief when the professor pointed out how multinational corporations (mostly American based companies) would economically "rape" their host nation to the detriment of the people of that country. All in the name of more profits.

But I digress. The article was indeed good and raised an important question for the entire country to consider: How beautifully rich and varied is our nation? And how much more so with the people that contribute to it.

I'm glad you got something from it.


SGG


Quote:

Originally posted by Brenda:
Quote:

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Attached find a story about the Native Americans who once numbered more than 20,000 in a village known as Etzanoa...

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/its-location-a-mystery-for-centuries-
huge-indian-city-is-found-in-kansas/ar-BBAdr7v?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartandhp


Makes you think about who the real immigrants are in this country. There were tribes known as Kanza, Wichita, Pawnee, Kiowa, Cheyenne and Apache. They roamed the middle of the country and developed cities in the tens of thousands.

Anyway, I think it's something that everyone is aware of, but may refuse to accept reality. Contrary to popular belief, the first Americans were not white. They were natives of color and they were here long before the Vikings and Columbus ever set foot on this land. The discovery of this town of natives in Kansas (Kansa people or people of the south wind) is considered a major discovery and part of the rich history of the native people who thrived here long ago.


SGG



Took time to really read the article and it is very good and interesting. Many tribes were ravished by disease. The biggest killer being small pox.

The tribes that bordered Mexico were the first to get horses. They stole them from the Spaniards. Apache were well known for raiding into Mexico.





I noticed.

Well, I am also kind of out of the loop news wise as to what is what in the US and the world. And I don't have the patience at times for trying to get a point across.

The US and Canada are widely diverse countries even among the First Nations peoples here. The Iroquois Confederacy in Eastern Canada built towns that were protected by walls.


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Wednesday, April 26, 2017 7:12 AM

6STRINGJOKER


I'm pretty sure at this point they wouldn't exist if the people who lived in them didn't want to live in them anymore. It's not as if they're concentration camps. They're actually sovereign states of their own that can make laws outside of US law. That's why the casinos were only on reservations for many years, and that's where the UFC got its start and to this day there are quite a few cage fights that don't fall under UFC law.

Brenda can correct me if I'm wrong, but nobody has to stay there if they don't want to.

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Thursday, April 27, 2017 3:58 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


This is what I'm saying. To think that in 2017 we are still talking about "reservations" like we are still living in the past. Horse soldiers and the like. Wow, it blows my mind.


SGG


Quote:

Originally posted by Brenda:
Quote:

Originally posted by 6stringJoker:
I'm pretty sure at this point they wouldn't exist if the people who lived in them didn't want to live in them anymore. It's not as if they're concentration camps. They're actually sovereign states of their own that can make laws outside of US law. That's why the casinos were only on reservations for many years, and that's where the UFC got its start and to this day there are quite a few cage fights that don't fall under UFC law.

Brenda can correct me if I'm wrong, but nobody has to stay there if they don't want to.



No, Jack. People don't have to stay on them any more. But sometimes leaving and trying to "assimilate" into the larger society is still hard. And God do I hate that word. So when they have problems they go back to the reservation.

Sometimes I feel that we still aren't wanted in our own land.


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Thursday, April 27, 2017 10:06 AM

6STRINGJOKER


Quote:

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
This is what I'm saying. To think that in 2017 we are still talking about "reservations" like we are still living in the past. Horse soldiers and the like. Wow, it blows my mind.


SGG


Quote:

Originally posted by Brenda:
Quote:

Originally posted by 6stringJoker:
I'm pretty sure at this point they wouldn't exist if the people who lived in them didn't want to live in them anymore. It's not as if they're concentration camps. They're actually sovereign states of their own that can make laws outside of US law. That's why the casinos were only on reservations for many years, and that's where the UFC got its start and to this day there are quite a few cage fights that don't fall under UFC law.

Brenda can correct me if I'm wrong, but nobody has to stay there if they don't want to.



No, Jack. People don't have to stay on them any more. But sometimes leaving and trying to "assimilate" into the larger society is still hard. And God do I hate that word. So when they have problems they go back to the reservation.

Sometimes I feel that we still aren't wanted in our own land.




I can agree with that SGG. But not being part of the culture it's hard to say why that word would still be a thing.

Brenda says that they don't have to stay on them "anymore", which means that they were indeed forced to stay on them at some point, which is the real shame.

The idea that they tend to stay there now I think speaks to our natural tenancy to group ourselves with like-minded people and also things that are familiar to us. I'm not saying that they have it good, but I am saying that part of me envies what they do have now. I'm a european mutt. I don't have any "roots" or any "reservation" to go back to if I fail to assimilate with the culture, which I struggle with all the time.

I think it's a large reason why buying a home and having no debt was so important to me. I've got my lonely little castle now where I'm not beholden to anybody. What's missing is the sense of community and belonging that Brenda probably feels.

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Thursday, April 27, 2017 6:37 PM

6STRINGJOKER


Quote:

Originally posted by Brenda:
Jack, all nations were driven onto the reservations by horse soldiers at the order of the American government. Late 1800s. Then the horse soldiers made sure that we stayed on them. Then if any group "jumped the reservation", think Geronimo, the "horse soldiers" or by then the US army was sent after them to bring them back.



Yeah... I'm a little fuzzy on my American History. I don't believe half of what I was taught since it changes all the time anyway, but the other half I don't know if I "learned" it in a book or I saw it on a cartoon or something. My Step-Dad is Mexican and the Three Amigos is one of his favorite movies. We got a good laugh when I told him that I thought everybody in Mexico was like in that movie.

You live it though. If you're saying it went down that way I believe it.

Quote:

Also the reservations became a place to practice our cultures and reclaim them. Languages have been found again and family ties refound after the residential school system went down.


That's pretty cool, I think. I don't have anything like that. My parents were already mixed and I'm even more so. I don't have any ties to any history. I guess "white" is as good a name for it as anything else.

Quote:

Sometimes I do Jack and sometimes I don't. I have pure blood friends and Metis friends and with them, I feel welcomed because we share similar stories. Close white friends from school I'm okay with but other whites, I don't. When I explain to them why they are wrong when they say certain things about the history in Canada...they don't understand.



When I was growing up and in public school, it was 95% white or more. We felt no "love" for each other, and outside your "clique" it was every man for himself. I remember in Jr. High there was a lot of Muslims all of the sudden in our classrooms and I envied how they stuck together. None of us white kids had each others backs outside of whatever friends we had, but nobody messed with the Muslim kids because if one of them had it out for you they all did.


I dunno. I guess at the end of the day is what I'm saying is that I don't like being thought of as "White". It was never a club I was very popular in for most of my adolescent life, and not something I like being globed into now when it's always with such negative connotations. I don't feel any guilt or shame for being white for whatever my "people" did in the past, or what any of them do now either.

Outside of rich old white dudes and "good 'ole boys" down south that still fly the Confederate flag for all the wrong reasons, I don't think there are any "white clubs". Just a bunch of people struggling to get by like everybody else.

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Sunday, April 30, 2017 7:52 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Brenda

I'm curious what you see as the answer. The Canadians made, I thought, a 30% attempt with Nunavut.



The US still has its disgusting reservation system.







Care to try addressing the facts, again?

Or do you shoot nothing but blanks?


Originally posted by G:
"I coined the slogan "We Suck!"© many years ago."
G is an avowed Putin-loving, pro-Russian, anti-American troll.

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Monday, May 1, 2017 12:34 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Hi Brenda

I know I don't know nearly enough. This is what I took away from Nunavut. IIRC it had to do with a broken treaty, and the case went up through Canadian court ranks. At the time I remember being impressed that 1) it was allowed to be heard in the courts, 2) the court ruled in favor of the plaintiffs, and 3) a pretty large amount of land (more than a token) was handed over as settlement. So, at least in that regard I think the Canadian government, in this day and age, is far ahead of the US in terms of fairness.

OTOH I know that both governments have a deeply shameful past regarding Native Americans. That includes rounding them up, forcible corralling them onto marginal lands, and removing children from their homes to make good, English-speaking X-tians out of them. And in a lot of ways the past has yet to be rectified. IITC the Department of the Interior Bureau of Indian Affairs manages oil and gas leases on Indian land - apparently because somebody thinks no one else is capable. And that has lead to a lot of tribes getting ripped off.

I'm not sure what people want. And I don't know how they see their choices. All I can do is explain how I see it.

Sadly, I believe the traditional lifestyle has been too disrupted to be an option for the future. And at least here in the US, drugs and gangs have stolen many young people from their homes and families. So at this point, I don't see a traditional lifestyle on the reservation as a choice.

To me, that makes the reservation another form of ghetto, or barrio, where the people who grow up there don't have the tools to be fully competitive in the dominant society (such as it is).
So, the pathway, as I see it, is for Native Americans to be incorporated into the larger society, but return home to the reservations as time permits.

It isn't something that I think is desirable. It's just the way it looks to me.




Originally posted by G:
"I coined the slogan "We Suck!"© many years ago."
G is an avowed Putin-loving, pro-Russian, anti-American troll.

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Monday, May 1, 2017 1:45 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


Ya know something 6, I applaud your response. Spoken from the heart.

We all crave that human experience of belonging, to a group, to family, to our community. But there exists that little negative voice inside us, for better or worse, that looks to keep out strangers; those that don't look or sound, or believe as "we" do. In my experience, I have been told to steer clear of certain areas in my town that may not want certain people to walk around their neighborhood. They make you feel unwanted, downright rejected.

A perfect example: that scene in Pretty Woman when she walks into a chic LA Boutique and they shun her. "You can't afford that dress." The mentality is we
want only "our kind" here in this store. Where do you go in a case like that?
Back to where you are comfortable: your neighborhood, family or community.

So, in the general sense, you're right when you say:

Quote:

The idea that they tend to stay there now I think speaks to our natural tenancy to group ourselves with like-minded people and also things that are familiar to us.


We have our own little community here, the Firefly Community; where we fight, argue and generally piss each other off. But, on those rare occasions, we come together and miracle of miracles, we agree. I, for one, am going to embrace this moment.


SGG


Quote:

Originally posted by 6stringJoker:
Quote:

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
This is what I'm saying. To think that in 2017 we are still talking about "reservations" like we are still living in the past. Horse soldiers and the like. Wow, it blows my mind.


SGG


Quote:

Originally posted by Brenda:
Quote:

Originally posted by 6stringJoker:
I'm pretty sure at this point they wouldn't exist if the people who lived in them didn't want to live in them anymore. It's not as if they're concentration camps. They're actually sovereign states of their own that can make laws outside of US law. That's why the casinos were only on reservations for many years, and that's where the UFC got its start and to this day there are quite a few cage fights that don't fall under UFC law.

Brenda can correct me if I'm wrong, but nobody has to stay there if they don't want to.



No, Jack. People don't have to stay on them any more. But sometimes leaving and trying to "assimilate" into the larger society is still hard. And God do I hate that word. So when they have problems they go back to the reservation.

Sometimes I feel that we still aren't wanted in our own land.




I can agree with that SGG. But not being part of the culture it's hard to say why that word would still be a thing.

Brenda says that they don't have to stay on them "anymore", which means that they were indeed forced to stay on them at some point, which is the real shame.

The idea that they tend to stay there now I think speaks to our natural tenancy to group ourselves with like-minded people and also things that are familiar to us. I'm not saying that they have it good, but I am saying that part of me envies what they do have now. I'm a european mutt. I don't have any "roots" or any "reservation" to go back to if I fail to assimilate with the culture, which I struggle with all the time.

I think it's a large reason why buying a home and having no debt was so important to me. I've got my lonely little castle now where I'm not beholden to anybody. What's missing is the sense of community and belonging that Brenda probably feels.


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Monday, May 1, 2017 3:02 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


So the question is - how to retain the link of tradition, tribe and family; while preparing the young to be successful in the greater world. It seems like a daunting task - like walking on two roads.




Originally posted by G:
"I coined the slogan "We Suck!"© many years ago."
G is an avowed Putin-loving, pro-Russian, anti-American troll.

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Monday, May 1, 2017 9:44 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Maybe if the reservations became more like a refuge and less like a prison?

I don't know how well that would work, but even white Xtian culture could use more "retreats" to restore balance. I myself long for a nice couple of weeks in quiet cloister/ hermitage/ monastery where all I need to do is be quiet and think.

-----------

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake

THUGR, JONESING FOR WWIII
All those guns 1kiki, are pointed towards your beloved Russia. All those cyber capabilities, pointed right at Russia. Thanks Putin, and get ready to duck.


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Monday, May 1, 2017 3:43 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Maybe if the reservations became more like a refuge and less like a prison?

I don't know how well that would work, but even white Xtian culture could use more "retreats" to restore balance. I myself long for a nice couple of weeks in quiet cloister/ hermitage/ monastery where all I need to do is be quiet and think.

I was thinking about an entire way of life. From what little I know - mostly from the Navajo - (damn! maybe I should have taken the hospital job at Ganado, but they wanted a 5 year commitment, and when you're in your 20's 5 years is forever) - the life is family/ tribal based on herding/ gathering/ simple farming, with crafts for sale. The many physical requirements for that lifestyle, the particular knowledge needed, require a large commitment of time. It's vital to preserve the language. I just don't know how you can preserve the entire culture, from which the cultural ethic springs.




Originally posted by G:
"I coined the slogan "We Suck!"© many years ago."
G is an avowed Putin-loving, pro-Russian, anti-American troll.

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Monday, May 1, 2017 5:44 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


There are two views of society. The first is that society is more-or-less determined by its economics. A people living one way of live ... herding, farming, gathering/hunting, industrialization etc. ... will see themselves and each other one particular way.

The second view is that society - especially how people view and treat each other - is more-or-less self-defined, independent of its economy.

If the first is correct, it will be impossible to maintain a society without the resources (land, rivers etc) which support it. If the second view is correct, then maintaining a language, religion, and system of ethics will go a long way towards keeping a culture alive and vibrant. I'm not sure which is correct, but I hope it's the second.

-----------

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake

THUGR, JONESING FOR WWIII
All those guns 1kiki, are pointed towards your beloved Russia. All those cyber capabilities, pointed right at Russia. Thanks Putin, and get ready to duck.


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Monday, May 1, 2017 6:24 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


I'd forgotten about that. indications so far are that physical environment doesn't determine economic relationships - how many in a group, resource distribution etc.

But how many phrases do we use today without thinking that don't have a vibrant real-life meaning - counting your chickens before they hatch; putting the cart before the horse, for example. The language is more or less intact, but the culture beyond the physical would be unrecognizable to a peasant from Merrie Olde England. Family, community, religion ... expectations, right and wrong ...








Originally posted by G:
"I coined the slogan "We Suck!"© many years ago."
G is an avowed Putin-loving, pro-Russian, anti-American troll.

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Wednesday, May 3, 2017 12:40 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


I appreciate the reply Brenda. To me, that's valuable information.




Originally posted by G:
"I coined the slogan "We Suck!"© many years ago."
G is an avowed Putin-loving, pro-Russian, anti-American troll.

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Wednesday, May 3, 2017 1:33 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


Agreed, 1000%


SGG


Quote:

Originally posted by Brenda:
Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
So the question is - how to retain the link of tradition, tribe and family; while preparing the young to be successful in the greater world. It seems like a daunting task - like walking on two roads.




Originally posted by G:
"I coined the slogan "We Suck!"© many years ago."
G is an avowed Putin-loving, pro-Russian, anti-American troll.



The Navajo have their own schools where they teach their language as well as English.

I think that is a good start.


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Wednesday, May 3, 2017 3:02 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


This is what is needed for a people and it's culture to survive: the "passing down"
of it's history. The Elders, or the ones before, passing on what they lived, survived and experienced - even what Brenda and countless others are going through now. The customs, clothing, rituals and language...

Quote:

They can pass on the verbal histories and language along with skills like bead work and religion. Teach the ceremonies of coming of age and introducing a baby to the tribe. And maybe how hides were treated to make clothes.


...this is how a people transcend colonial genocide: the study and continued way of living as those that came before, through storytelling and sharing. Before the Spanish Conquistadores came to Boriken (later renamed Rich Port by the European invaders, or Puerto Rico) the Taino Indians had a rich culture that resembled a commune whereby all within the various communities worked for the common good. Each village had a "Cacique" or Chief, who's job it was to see to it that everyone pulled their weight. The women were strong individuals and had the right to "divorce" their husbands by merely setting their belongings outside the domicile.

They too were adversely affected by disease, enslavement and violence as the natives fought back to preserve their culture.

Quote:

When the Spanish settlers first came in 1508, since there is no reliable documentation, anthropologists estimate their numbers to have been between 20,000 and 50,000, but maltreatment, disease, flight, and unsuccessful rebellion had diminished their number to 4,000 by 1515; in 1544 a bishop counted only 60, but these too were soon lost.


Sound familiar!? But today their culture lives on:

Quote:

Many Taíno implements and techniques were copied directly by the Europeans, including the bohío (straw hut) and the hamaca (hammock), the musical instrument known as the maracas, and the method of making cassava bread. Many Taino words persist in the Puerto Rican vocabulary of today.


Quote:

The Taíno culture impressed both the Spanish (who observed it) and modern sociologists. Myths and traditions were perpetuated through ceremonial dances (areytos), drumbeats, oral traditions, and a ceremonial ball game played between opposing teams (of 10 to 30 players per team) with a rubber ball; winning this game was thought to bring a good harvest and strong, healthy children. The Taíno Indians lived in theocratic kingdoms and had a hierarchically arranged chiefs or caciques. The Taínos were divided in three social classes: the naborias (work class), the nitaínos or sub-chiefs and noblemen which includes the bohiques or priests and medicine men and the caciques or chiefs, each village or yucayeque had one.


The above is just a way to pass on some of the knowledge or history about the Tainos. There's so much more, but you get the idea.


SGG


Quote:

Originally posted by Brenda:
Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Maybe if the reservations became more like a refuge and less like a prison?

I don't know how well that would work, but even white Xtian culture could use more "retreats" to restore balance. I myself long for a nice couple of weeks in quiet cloister/ hermitage/ monastery where all I need to do is be quiet and think.

I was thinking about an entire way of life. From what little I know - mostly from the Navajo - (damn! maybe I should have taken the hospital job at Ganado, but they wanted a 5 year commitment, and when you're in your 20's 5 years is forever) - the life is family/ tribal based on herding/ gathering/ simple farming, with crafts for sale. The many physical requirements for that lifestyle, the particular knowledge needed, require a large commitment of time. It's vital to preserve the language. I just don't know how you can preserve the entire culture, from which the cultural ethic springs.




Originally posted by G:
"I coined the slogan "We Suck!"© many years ago."
G is an avowed Putin-loving, pro-Russian, anti-American troll.



What you are talking about Kiki is why the Elders of all tribes are so important. They can pass on the verbal histories and language along with skills like bead work and religion. Teach the ceremonies of coming of age and introducing a baby to the tribe. And maybe how hides were treated to make clothes.

The Haida here make big sea-worthy canoes. They are taken out for special ceremonies. There are totem pole raisings on this coast that happen. The Haida are fantastic carvers.

..


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Thursday, May 4, 2017 2:09 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


Quote:

The Navajo have their own schools where they teach their language as well as English.

I think that is a good start.



Yes Brenda, it is. As is said in the 2016 film Arrival - "Use your weapon."
The premise in that film is that language is the first weapon of choice in a conflict and should be used to bring about progress.


SGG

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Tuesday, June 1, 2021 9:15 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


It seems like this might be the thread where Brenda discussed Residential Schools, but seems her posts got deleted.

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Tuesday, June 1, 2021 9:24 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


I've looked for the thread about Residential Schools several times before.

This time is because news reports that an unmarked mass grave of 216 children's bodies were found in/at Kamloops.


Maybe somebody can post a linky.


If somebody knows another thread where Brenda discussed the Residential School System, that would be great to find. I recall reading her posts, but always thought I'd be able to refer back to it.

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Tuesday, June 1, 2021 9:53 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.



Brenda was a person who magically had all her posts disappear, I think before "G" had all his posts disappear.

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Tuesday, June 1, 2021 11:48 PM

BRENDA


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
I've looked for the thread about Residential Schools several times before.

This time is because news reports that an unmarked mass grave of 216 children's bodies were found in/at Kamloops.


Maybe somebody can post a linky.


If somebody knows another thread where Brenda discussed the Residential School System, that would be great to find. I recall reading her posts, but always thought I'd be able to refer back to it.



There is still a thread I posted about the Residential school system. It's not that far back.

I've heard the story on the news and I also spent part of my growing up years in an area where there was a residential school but by that time the middle 70s the kids there were brought into the main school. So, I heard stories of there being graves on that site.

It will be long and painful process for the bodies to be exhumed and it will take DNA, I would think to find families and what bands they might belong to.

I'll see if I can find a link.

And the number is 215 but there may be more.

I can't do the link thing but go back to September 9, 2020 and the title is "Residential Schools"

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Tuesday, June 1, 2021 11:58 PM

BRENDA


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
It seems like this might be the thread where Brenda discussed Residential Schools, but seems her posts got deleted.



I think JSF, I have discussed them in a couple of different threads.

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Sunday, October 17, 2021 7:51 PM

JAYNEZTOWN


Yes the Native got the bad deal, they were screwed by Colonialism, fucked over but there is more to this long story...

...It's a weird political simplification, its not as if Europeans can suddenly all go back, not all Natives were peaceful, Kamala slams the European explorers who ‘ushered in a wave of devastation for Tribal nations’ and vows the Biden administration will work to address the impact of America’s ‘shameful past’ and its almost like she acts as if European exploration colonsation or travel and colonialism all happened in unison in one great planned attack. All immigrants are now equal, just that some are now more equal than others. isn't it great how America now has a feminist globalist woman that climbed that ladder by hooking up with dudes in California, educated with her sisterhoods in Canada, with ancestry from India and Jamaica in charge of telling the USA how to re-write its own history? both of her parents came to the evil United States right after India's independence, she is not a daughter of a US slave her family coming from Jamaica, the favorite White Christian man target of the Left will always be something that can't fight back in the new marxist identity politics era? ... Now have a weird joker face cackle


Kamala Blasts Explorers To America For Unleashing ‘Wave Of Devastation’

https://www.citizensjournal.us/kamala-blasts-explorers-to-america-for-
unleashing-wave-of-devastation
/

Kamala Harris says murders of Native American women and girls must end in Indigenous People's Day address

https://www.econotimes.com/Kamala-Harris-says-murders-of-Native-Americ
an-women-and-girls-must-end-in-Indigenous-Peoples-Day-address-1619184


Kamala Harris Blames 'European Explorers' for 'Perpetrating Violence, Stealing Land, Spreading Disease'

https://cnsnews.com/article/national/susan-jones/kamala-harris-blames-
european-explorers-perpetrating-violence-stealing


VP Kamala Harris has ‘basically come out and said the United States is an illegitimate nation’

https://www.skynews.com.au/opinion/peta-credlin/vp-kamala-harris-has-b
asically-come-out-and-said-the-united-states-is-an-illegitimate-nation/video/d4cc0cb99c5eddbff4482abc8ec63150

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