REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

A Lesson in Moscow About Trump-Style ‘Alternative Truth’

POSTED BY: THGRRI
UPDATED: Monday, November 20, 2023 14:21
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Tuesday, April 18, 2017 9:58 AM

THGRRI


MOSCOW — I wanted to better understand President Trump’s America,
a place where truth is being ripped from its moorings as he brands
those tasked with lashing it back into place — journalists — as dishonest
enemies of the people. So I went to Russia.

It was like a visit to the land of Alternative Truth Yet to Come.
But it also gave me a glimpse into how our new national look
is playing in the global information war, where competing
narratives are clashing along a sliding scale of fact and fiction.



https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/16/business/media/vladimir-putin-mosco
w-press-trump.html?rref=collection%2Fbyline%2Fjim-rutenberg&action=click&contentCollection=undefined®ion=stream&module=stream_unit&version=latest&contentPlacement=1&pgtype=collection&_r=0





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Tuesday, April 18, 2017 10:05 AM

6STRINGJOKER


Maybe if they stopped lying, they'd stop being called liars.

I have a better title to this article...

Talking To Myself: The Sound of a Tree Falling in a Forest When No One is There to Hear it

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Tuesday, April 18, 2017 11:26 AM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by G:
Quote:

Originally posted by THGRRI:
MOSCOW — I wanted to better understand President Trump’s America,
a place where truth is being ripped from its moorings as he brands
those tasked with lashing it back into place — journalists — as dishonest
enemies of the people. So I went to Russia.

It was like a visit to the land of Alternative Truth Yet to Come.
But it also gave me a glimpse into how our new national look
is playing in the global information war, where competing
narratives are clashing along a sliding scale of fact and fiction.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/16/business/media/vladimir-putin-mosco
w-press-trump.html





Great article. It's nothing we haven't suspected, just more detail. The fact that Trump played to the less intelligent during his campaign and won, only vindicated the Russian style approach. "They'll believe anything if it's got the right package," and Trump obviously knows a lot about selling and packaging.
In that election, America showed Lord Voldemort, er, Vladimir, that there were enough hillbillies and gullibles to elect Trump, now he's going to show Trump how to keep the rest in check and keep the party going.

==============================



We need not look any farther than the fist responder to this thread to see how that is true. Some say ignorance is bliss. I say it's detrimental to a society.






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Saturday, April 22, 2017 10:21 PM

JO753

rezident owtsidr


True.

Stoopid can be contajus.

----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.7532020.com

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Saturday, April 22, 2017 11:51 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.



Quote:

Mediator
opinion piece
Quote:

A Lesson in Moscow About Trump-Style ‘Alternative Truth’


Jim Rutenberg



holder of THE TRUTH - this btw is from his webpage extolling his own virtuous truthiness
Quote:



MOSCOW — I wanted to better understand President Trump’s America, a place where truth is being ripped from its moorings as he brands those tasked with lashing it back into place — journalists — as dishonest enemies of the people.

They mostly are dishonest.
Quote:

So I went to Russia.
because ... RUSSIA!
Quote:

It was like a visit to the land of Alternative Truth Yet to Come.
Unlike today where the news tells us that sanctions against Russia are so universally seen as righteous and just, every politician in Europe - especially France - is for them.
Quote:

But it also gave me a glimpse into how our new national look is playing in the global information war, where competing narratives are clashing along a sliding scale of fact and fiction.

I had picked a ghoulishly perfect week to swing through President Vladimir V. Putin’s Moscow, where spring was struggling to break out over the low-slung, slate-gray cityscape.

Mr. Trump had just ordered a Tomahawk strike against Syria’s Shayrat air base, from which, the United States said, President Bashar al-Assad of Syria had launched the chemical weapons attack that killed more than 80 and sickened hundreds.

As soon as I turned on a television here I wondered if I had arrived through an alt-right wormhole.

Back in the States, the prevailing notion in the news was that Mr. Assad had indeed been responsible for the chemical strike.

Because the government said-so. So there.
Quote:

There was some “reportage” from sources like the conspiracy theorist and radio host Alex Jones — best known for suggesting that the Sandy Hook school massacre was staged — that the chemical attack was a “false flag” operation by terrorist rebel groups to goad the United States into attacking Mr. Assad. But that was a view from the fringe.
And a chemical weapons expert at MIT. Doofus. What does he know.
Quote:

Here in Russia, it was the dominant theme throughout the overwhelmingly state-controlled mainstream media.
While the US tirelessly flogged its own brand of propaganda.
Quote:

On the popular Russian television program “Vesti Nedeli,” the host, Dmitry Kiselyov, questioned how Syria could have been responsible for the attack. After all, he said, the Assad government had destroyed all of its chemical weapons. It was the terrorists who possessed them, said Mr. Kiselyov, who also heads Russia’s main state-run international media arm.
The UN has also reported that the terrorists know how to make and deploy chemical weapons. But what do THEY know, either!?
Quote:

One of Mr. Kiselyov’s correspondents on the scene mocked “Western propagandists” for believing the Trump line, saying munitions at the air base had “as much to do with chemical weapons as the test tube in the hands of Colin Powell had to do with weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.”

That teed up Mr. Putin to suggest in nationally televised comments a couple of days later that perhaps the attack was an intentional “provocation” by the rebels to goad the United States into attacking Mr. Assad. RT, the Russian-financed English-language news service, initially translated Mr. Putin as calling it a “false flag.” The full Alex Jones was complete.

You mean mister Putin's words were accurately reported on a FAKE NEWS site? OH THE HORROR!
Quote:

When Trump administration officials tried to counter Russia’s “false narratives” by releasing to reporters a declassified report detailing Syria’s chemical weapons stockpiles — and suggesting to The Associated Press without proof
US media stock in trade
Quote:

that Russia knew of Mr. Assad’s plans to use chemical weapons in advance — the Russians had a ready answer borrowed from Mr. Trump himself.

As the pro-Kremlin newspaper Izvestia put it, “Apparently it was for good reason Donald Trump called unverified information in the mass media one of the main problems in the U.S.”

It was the best evidence I’ve seen of the folly of Mr. Trump’s anti-press approach. You can’t spend more than a year attacking the credibility of the “dishonest media” and then expect to use its journalism as support for your position during an international crisis — at least not with any success.

But if the media improved its credibility - for example by refraining from flogging anonymous sources, and demanding proof, or at least evidence, they could become a useful AND TRUSTED source of information. The fact that only 7% of people think it's trustworthy comes from long and bitter experience.
Quote:

While Mr. Trump and his supporters may think that undermining the news media serves their larger interests ...
Holding the media accountable is a good idea that would help the entire country.
Quote:

... in this great information war it serves Mr. Putin’s interests more. It means playing on his turf, where he excels.

Integral to Mr. Putin’s governing style has been a pliant press that makes his government the main arbiter of truth.

And here we are in opposite-land.
Quote:

While talking to the beaten but unbowed members of the real journalism community here, I heard eerie hints of Trumpian proclamations in their war stories.

Take Mr. Trump’s implicit threat to the owner of The Washington Post, Jeff Bezos, during the election campaign. In case you’ve forgotten, while calling The Post’s coverage of him “horrible and false,” Mr. Trump warned that if he won the presidency Mr. Bezos’s other business, Amazon, would have “such problems.” (The Post was undaunted, and the issue hasn’t come up again.)

Amazing how over-blown that non-existent non-threat was.
Quote:

The government here doesn’t make threats like that. Things just happen. That was the case last year at the independent media company RBC after its flagship newspaper reported on sensitive financial arrangements of members of Mr. Putin’s family and his associates. The Russian authorities raided the offices of its oligarch owner, Mikhail Prokhorov. Within a few weeks its top three editors had left.
And here we are treated to innuendo and gossip. I supposed the bearer of THE TRUTH as he styles himself couldn't be bothered to track down those editors and find out what really happened. Nope. FAR better to blame imaginary bogey-men.
Quote:

The Kremlin denied involvement. But it must have liked the new editor’s message to the RBC staff: Journalism is like driving, and “if you drive over the solid double line they take away your license.”

Mr. Prokhorov is considering selling RBC to another oligarch who is closer to the government, the Russian business journal Vedomosti reported on Tuesday.

So?
Quote:

That same day, I met with one of the former RBC editors, Roman Badanin. We chatted at his new place of employment, TV Rain, in the Flacon warehouse complex here, populated by young people with beards, tattoos, piercings and colored hair. (Brooklyn hipster imperialism knows no bounds.)

TV Rain has its own hard-luck tale. It was Russia’s only independent television station. Carried mainly on cable, it regularly covered anti-Putin protests and aired voices excluded from the rest of television.

You mean it's like Alex Jones.
Quote:

But after it ran an online poll asking whether Russia should have abandoned Leningrad to the Nazis to save lives — deeply offending Russian national pride, and receiving a public rebuke from Mr. Putin’s top spokesman — its landlord evicted it and its cable carriers dropped it.
Perhaps it offended its audience deeply. But we'll never know because the idiot writing the swill couldn't be bothered to track down the facts.
Quote:

It now lives primarily as a subscription service on the internet ...
where one could fairly gauge its actual popularity, if only the author had bothered to find out .
Quote:

... which remains fairly free given Mr. Putin’s primary focus on television as the most powerful medium in the country. (Mr. Badanin and others worry that’s going to change, too.)

When I asked Mr. Badanin what would be different if Russia had full press freedoms, he looked at me wearily and said: “Everything. Sorry for that common answer, but everything.”

I wonder what the US would be like if the media wasn't complicit with the government. And what's the difference between being a mouthpiece for the Russian government v being a mouthpiece for the US government?
Quote:

Despite steep challenges, people like Mr. Badanin are still battling on. Their journalistic spirit couldn’t be killed, even after some of their friends and colleagues had been.

One newspaper here, Novaya Gazeta, has lost five reporters to *violence* or *suspicious circumstances* since the turn of the century.

It always makes me wonder when someone makes non-specific claims like death due to *violence*, whatever that means. Because it looks to me like the author is trying to blame the Russian government, but is trying to inflate the numbers by including non-specific categories. OTOH, the murder rate in Russia is double that of the US. And reporters cover dangerous territory. It's possible they were simply murdered. http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Russia/United-States/
Crime
Quote:

Toward the end of the week, I went to its spartan offices in central Moscow to visit its longtime editor, Dmitri Muratov, who has fiercely guarded the paper’s independence through all of the killings
dishonest elide from 'violence' to implication it was the government
Quote:

and the crackdowns.
no evidence provided - as usual
Quote:

With the gallows humor of a seasoned journalist,
We have to rake the author's word for this.
Quote:

Mr. Muratov was in a jovial mood
What - no 'gallows' in sight?
Quote:

and told me that he was getting a great kick out of state media’s hard turn against Mr. Trump.

Initially, Mr. Muratov said of the president, “he was treated as warmly as McDonald’s; he entered every home like he was our national Santa Claus.”

yuh-hunh
Quote:

Mr. Muratov had no doubt the sentiment toward Mr. Trump would reverse again, perhaps soon. (To borrow from “1984”: “Oceania was at war with Eastasia. Oceania had always been at war with Eastasia.”)

Novaya Gazeta had the toughest coverage on the chemical weapons attack that I saw here, challenging the government narrative with reporting from the ground indicating the chemical weapons were dropped from the air. (The anti-Assad forces do not have airplanes.)

Evidence?
Quote:

There’s a lot of speculation in Russian media circles about why the Kremlin allows Novaya Gazeta to continue to operate.
more pointless unsupported opinion
Quote:

Mr. Muratov says he believes it’s because the newspaper is not owned by a single businessman subject to pressure. The newspaper’s staff owns a majority of the shares, and the rest of them are owned by the former Soviet leader Mikhail S. Gorbachev and the Russian businessman Alexander Lebedev. (Mr. Lebedev told The Guardian last year that he was no longer financing newsroom operations because of “the strain.”)

That, and a loyal subscriber base of more than 240,000, help insulate it from outside pressure, if not the violence.

really? again?
Quote:

The very day of my visit, Mr. Muratov received a threat against his entire staff from religious leaders in Chechnya
... ie, not Putin ...
Quote:

angry over articles about anti-gay violence in the region.

The Novaya Gazeta offices are scattered with reminders to take such threats seriously, like the case that holds the dusty desktop computer of Anna Politkovskaya. She was shot dead in her apartment building in 2006 after exposing human rights abuses in Chechnya and writing unflinchingly about Mr. Putin.

But Chechnya is not under Russian control. So who is he blaming - Chechens, or Putin? It can't be both.
Quote:

I wondered aloud whether it scared any of Mr. Muratov’s reporters away from certain stories. He turned serious, looked straight at me and said, “I really wish it could.”
because ChechPutinya
Quote:

Mr. Muratov follows the American news media closely. I asked him what he thought about the American press corps’ quandary when it comes to covering a president, like Mr. Trump, who trades in falsehoods and demonizes journalists.

He seemed put off by the question; the answer, to him, was so obvious.

“Information from the Kremlin or from the White House, it’s not for us verified information,” he said. “We don’t place our trust just on their word.”

It’s a lesson American reporters should have learned long before Mr. Trump came along, especially after Iraq.


Journalists in Russia like Mr. Muratov haven’t lost sight of that lesson because they can’t afford to. Neither can we.



And yet, there are people here who believe anything the government says, or an anonymous source, or an agency, as transmitted by the media, just because someone said so.

And yet again, the author himself hasn't learned the lesson, either.

No one should be taking anybody's claims as fact unless they're accompanied by relevant evidence.

But some people here ALWAYS do. And the author expects us to as well. Yanno, it's a match made in heaven. The propagandists. And the propagandized.






Care to try addressing the facts, again?

Or do you shoot nothing but blanks?


Originally posted by G:
"I coined the slogan "We Suck!"© many years ago."
G is an avowed Putin-loving, pro-Russian, anti-American troll.

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Sunday, April 23, 2017 12:35 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


KIKI, thank you for the laughs! It was a funny put-down of a stoopid article! My favorite part:

Quote:

That same day, I met with one of the former RBC editors, Roman Badanin. We chatted at his new place of employment, TV Rain, in the Flacon warehouse complex here, populated by young people with beards, tattoos, piercings and colored hair. (Brooklyn hipster imperialism knows no bounds.)

TV Rain has its own hard-luck tale. It was Russia’s only independent television station. Carried mainly on cable, it regularly covered anti-Putin protests and aired voices excluded from the rest of television. - MR STOOPID

You mean it's like Alex Jones. - KIKI

I laughed out loud, and it's a good thing I wasn't drinking anything or you would have owed me a new keyboard!

-----------

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake

THUGR, JONESING FOR WWIII
All those guns 1kiki, are pointed towards your beloved Russia. All those cyber capabilities, pointed right at Russia. Thanks Putin, and get ready to duck.


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Sunday, April 23, 2017 9:41 AM

THGRRI


Fighting fake news: Google’s new fact-check tool attempts to combat a global issue

Google released its new tool “Fact Check” this week. It is designed to combat fake news on the internet. The move is a clear response to the post-election outcry over the spread of false news reports, their probable influence on the 2016 presidential election and their negative affect on democracy.

http://www.salon.com/2017/04/23/fighting-fake-news-googles-new-fact-ch
eck-tool-attempts-to-combat-a-global-issue_partner
/






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Sunday, April 23, 2017 10:56 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Oh, so now we're supposed to trust Google ... the internet giant that track EVERYthing about us to tell us what is "real" and what isn't?

If Google was so committed to "real news" instead of "fake news" it would stop serving as a platform for advertising, since advert is mostly lies served up with a secret sauce of self-delusion.


-----------

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake

THUGR, JONESING FOR WWIII
All those guns 1kiki, are pointed towards your beloved Russia. All those cyber capabilities, pointed right at Russia. Thanks Putin, and get ready to duck.


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Sunday, April 23, 2017 11:00 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


Clever!


SGG


Quote:

Originally posted by 6STRINGJOKER:
Maybe if they stopped lying, they'd stop being called liars.

I have a better title to this article...

Talking To Myself: The Sound of a Tree Falling in a Forest When No One is There to Hear it


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Sunday, April 23, 2017 11:03 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


Ah Moscow, the birthplace of the NEW democracy and repositioned truthiness!


SGG


Quote:

Originally posted by THGRRI:
MOSCOW — I wanted to better understand President Trump’s America,
a place where truth is being ripped from its moorings as he brands
those tasked with lashing it back into place — journalists — as dishonest
enemies of the people. So I went to Russia.

It was like a visit to the land of Alternative Truth Yet to Come.
But it also gave me a glimpse into how our new national look
is playing in the global information war, where competing
narratives are clashing along a sliding scale of fact and fiction.



https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/16/business/media/vladimir-putin-mosco
w-press-trump.html?rref=collection%2Fbyline%2Fjim-rutenberg&action=click&contentCollection=undefined®ion=stream&module=stream_unit&version=latest&contentPlacement=1&pgtype=collection&_r=0






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Sunday, April 23, 2017 11:06 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


Putin and his Russian techno-bots (include the human element) have managed to
distort the truth about Fake News, so much so that even Google is hard-pressed
to decipher what's real fake news from the fake real news, film at 11.


SGG


Quote:

Originally posted by THGRRI:
Fighting fake news: Google’s new fact-check tool attempts to combat a global issue

Google released its new tool “Fact Check” this week. It is designed to combat fake news on the internet. The move is a clear response to the post-election outcry over the spread of false news reports, their probable influence on the 2016 presidential election and their negative affect on democracy.

http://www.salon.com/2017/04/23/fighting-fake-news-googles-new-fact-ch
eck-tool-attempts-to-combat-a-global-issue_partner
/







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Sunday, April 23, 2017 2:24 PM

6STRINGJOKER


Google did a fine job of combating fake news when every single article on the first three pages of any google search in the months leading up to the election had Clinton winning by a landslide.

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Sunday, April 23, 2017 4:18 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


GEEBERS

Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
And yet, there are people here who believe anything the government says, or an anonymous source, or an agency, as transmitted by the media, just because someone said so.

Like you. RUSSIANS INVADE UKRAINE. TROOPS REPELLED BY UKRAINE! KIEV SAID AND NATO AGREED - RUSSIA IS SENDING TROOPS ACROSS THE BORDER ... IN MAY ... AND JUNE ... AND JULY AND AUGUST ... (of course there was never any evidence for any of the so-called invasions) RUSSIA HACKED THE ELECTION! (claim repeated with no evidence) ... ASSAD 'GASSED HIS OWN PEOPLE'! (claim repeated with no evidence and DESPITE THE UN OFFICIAL REPORT.)
Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
No one should be taking anybody's claims as fact unless they're accompanied by relevant evidence.

Quote:

Originally posted by GEEBERS:
You mean like the evidence you provide that supports the fact that you're a lying sack of sh*t? Sad, little Kiki... you just keep stepping in it.

You mean like the complete lack of specifics you posted to support your trolling?


Here's the thing - I noticed that you troll ESPECIALLY FERVENTLY when you have zero facts. I'm guessing you've got nothing.






Care to try addressing the facts, again?

Or do you shoot nothing but blanks?


Originally posted by G:
"I coined the slogan "We Suck!"© many years ago."
G is an avowed Putin-loving, pro-Russian, anti-American troll.

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Sunday, April 23, 2017 9:15 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

And yet, there are people here who believe anything the government says, or an anonymous source, or an agency, as transmitted by the media, just because someone said so.

Like you. [GEEBERS] RUSSIANS INVADE UKRAINE. TROOPS REPELLED BY UKRAINE! KIEV SAID AND NATO AGREED - RUSSIA IS SENDING TROOPS ACROSS THE BORDER ... IN MAY ... AND JUNE ... AND JULY AND AUGUST ... (of course there was never any evidence for any of the so-called invasions) RUSSIA HACKED THE ELECTION! (claim repeated with no evidence) ... ASSAD 'GASSED HIS OWN PEOPLE'! (claim repeated with no evidence and DESPITE THE UN OFFICIAL REPORT.) - KIKI

It's like JO said ... stoopid iz kontajus.
Quote:

You mean like the evidence you provide that supports the fact that you're a lying sack of sh*t? Sad, little Kiki... you just keep stepping in it. - GSTRING

Here's the thing - I noticed that you troll ESPECIALLY FERVENTLY when you have zero facts. I'm guessing you've got nothing.- KIKI



GSTRING, if I were you I'd be completely embarrassed.

KIKI did an excellent takedown of a completely baseless article, and you should- if anything- take a lesson from that on how to spot LACK OF EVIDENCE in a post. And apply it to your own posts.

-----------

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake

THUGR, JONESING FOR WWIII
All those guns 1kiki, are pointed towards your beloved Russia. All those cyber capabilities, pointed right at Russia. Thanks Putin, and get ready to duck.


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Monday, April 24, 2017 3:54 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:

G is an avowed Putin-loving, pro-Russian, anti-American troll.



There are years of threads here that show you defending Russia against any and all negative assertions about it. Then there's G, always confronting you about that. There are years of threads here that show you posting negatively about America and our allies. Then there's G, always confronting you about that.

You posting this about G over and over again is laughable. More so, it shows you to be what G says you are, a liar. We all know it. The proof is in your signature, and can be seen in every post you make.

The other thing your signature suggests about you, is that you are in a tail spin. Most of your posts and replies are without substance. All your posts are 97% the same. They're all signature. While you are fond of asking the rest of us if we would care to discuss the facts, you have apparently lost the ability to. Well, actually you never could.






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Monday, April 24, 2017 5:55 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.







Care to try addressing the facts, again?

Or do you shoot nothing but blanks?


Originally posted by G:
"I coined the slogan "We Suck!"© many years ago."
G is an avowed Putin-loving, pro-Russian, anti-American troll.

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Tuesday, April 25, 2017 10:48 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

There are years of threads here that show you defending Russia against any and all negative assertions about it.
No, not true. There are years (four, possibly, when the BUT RUSSIA! started to become a meme) that show me objecting to paranoia and stupid claims.

Here's are examples:

"Assad gassed his own people (2013)"
Almost everyone here immediately blamed Assad, and Russia, because Bellingcat saw a tailfin and the Israelis claimed to have picked up electronic communication.

But AT THE TIME I said there was a lot of evidence that one SHOULD look for to determine where the Sarin came from, including the type of the delivery system (standard manufacture? A hodgepdoge of parts?) and the impurities and stabilizers in the Sarin, which can at least "rule out" known manufacturers. Also on the ground interviews. And why would Assad do that, right after Obama said chemical weapons were his "red line"? Far too many downsides, and Assad isn't crazy. SINCE THEN, the accusation has been retracted.

By the way, in some other thread which I can't find now you CLAIMED that there was no such thing as a "deep state" because they "worked with" Obama. But I have often said that some actions (Ukraine, Syria) caught Obama by surprise, and this was one of them: Everyone was pushing Obama to enforce his own "red line" but he must have had some back-channel communication (You were in the military, right? You should know all about "back channel" communication!) that it was a setup, because he didn't bomb Syria.

"Russia invades Ukraine"
I don't even know WHAT this was based on. People went so far as to post video of a SIGNIFICANT convoy (30+ vehicles) as "evidence", but that must not have meant anything because it never came up again (probably geolocated elsewhere). And that was the ONLY invasion-worthy evidence that I could find. A random tank here or there was meaningless. I repeatedly pointed out that there was evidence that Russia was SUPPORTING the Donbas rebels with ammunition, fuel, intel, training, humanitarian assistance, a porous border, and special forces .... but ammunition, fuel, intel, training, humanitarian assistance, a porous border, and special forces do not an "invasion" make. I think the term that fits is "proxy war".

"Russia shot down MH17"
The idea was based on photos and videos which show a BUK missile-launcher trundling through rebel-controlled Donbas with and without a missile. There were many other theories put forward: A fight jet shot it down (based on eyewitness testimony of at least two planes in the sky) or Kiev shot it down (they were in possession of similar BUK missile systems in the same area).

AT THE TIME I said there was evidence that SHOULD be collected, such as Russian and Kiev control tower radar data, control tower instructions, etc. The probative would be fragments of the missile shrapnel parts embedded in parts of the plane, and the bodies of the victims, an analysis of stress fractures in the plane's metal, and trace metal analysis from the plane (xfered from the impacting objects). The last that I read was the the bodies were never autopsied or even Xrayed, therefore were buried with the most telling evidence inside them. I said I would wait for the results of the commission, since THEY have the evidence, not us. They said it was a surface-to-air missile, but have not yet decided who was at fault. Evidence is still being gathered for a final conclusion. Here is the latest: a BUK missile exhaust nozzle was found on scene, and zirconium (a trace metal) found on the outside of the plane. http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/incidents/mh17-investigat
ors-reveal-an-exhaust-of-a-russianbuilt-buk-missile-was-found-at-the-crash-site/news-story/ad45f8cd4166130f12f0c287579feffd



EVIDENCE, dude, EVIDENCE. Its the basis of science and truth. It's evidence that tell us what happened, not gossip and paranoia. Sometimes it's frustrating waiting for the puzzle parts to come in, and painstaking to fit them together.

But here's a thought-exercise: When somebody said something happened, think about the clues YOU would look for ahead-of-time if YOU were doing an investigation. Then you get to compare your list to what is presented. It's a thought-provoking exercise.



-----------

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake

THUGR, JONESING FOR WWIII
All those guns 1kiki, are pointed towards your beloved Russia. All those cyber capabilities, pointed right at Russia. Thanks Putin, and get ready to duck.


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Tuesday, April 25, 2017 11:21 AM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

There are years of threads here that show you defending Russia against any and all negative assertions about it.
No, not true. There are years (four, possibly, when the BUT RUSSIA! started to become a meme) that show me objecting to paranoia and stupid claims.






Yeah, it's great ain't it? You're responsible for that. It's called pushback. As for the rest of your twisted and subjective post, it has been deleted. Not read, nor considered as worth a moments consideration.






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Friday, April 28, 2017 11:19 AM

THGRRI









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Friday, April 28, 2017 3:09 PM

THGRRI


It's sad isn't G. I mean how anyone would still be confused as to what the guy is about. And SIG with the Hillary starting WW111 shit, when its Trump who's on the verge. And where're only three months into his 4 year term.





Quote:

Originally posted by G:
Trump before being elected:

"Obama golfs too much"
"Obama signs too many executive orders. I wouldn't do that!"

Trump after being elected:

Has out golfed Obama
Has signed more executive orders than Obama

He's a lying sack of course, so we cut him some slack.


==============================






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Friday, April 28, 2017 4:44 PM

6STRINGJOKER


Hillary's lies were what got Trump elected.

Trump wouldn't' have stood a chance against any other Democratic nominee.

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Friday, April 28, 2017 6:50 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by G:
Quote:

Originally posted by THGRRI:
It's sad isn't G. I mean how anyone would still be confused as to what the guy is about. And SIG with the Hillary starting WW111 shit, when its Trump who's on the verge. And where're only three months into his 4 year term.



One of the reasons why the deflection: "you need to ask yourself how you can rebuild the democratic party" is so obvious and so flipping stupid is that for the Dems to have the same success as Trump had (without Russian aid) is they would have to dumb down the heck out of their message and lie 10 times more. Maybe then they'd attract the Trump voter. Seriously - being honest is a flaw in this country. People are too stupid or too petty to recognize when they've been lied to, or care if they do.

==============================



Ah, I think they need to address the white working class. The democratic agenda does not include us. We are just scape goats to them. Every time they open their mouths about the down trodden it's always about minorities. Sure OK, but what about the rest of us?






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Sunday, December 27, 2020 1:16 PM

THG


Quote:

Originally posted by THGRRI:
MOSCOW — I wanted to better understand President Trump’s America,
a place where truth is being ripped from its moorings as he brands
those tasked with lashing it back into place — journalists — as dishonest
enemies of the people. So I went to Russia.

It was like a visit to the land of Alternative Truth Yet to Come.
But it also gave me a glimpse into how our new national look
is playing in the global information war, where competing
narratives are clashing along a sliding scale of fact and fiction.



https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/16/business/media/vladimir-putin-mosco
w-press-trump.html?rref=collection%2Fbyline%2Fjim-rutenberg&action=click&contentCollection=undefined®ion=stream&module=stream_unit&version=latest&contentPlacement=1&pgtype=collection&_r=0







T


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Tuesday, August 3, 2021 9:42 AM

THG


Quote:

Originally posted by THGRRI:
MOSCOW — I wanted to better understand President Trump’s America,
a place where truth is being ripped from its moorings as he brands
those tasked with lashing it back into place — journalists — as dishonest
enemies of the people. So I went to Russia.

It was like a visit to the land of Alternative Truth Yet to Come.
But it also gave me a glimpse into how our new national look
is playing in the global information war, where competing
narratives are clashing along a sliding scale of fact and fiction.



https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/16/business/media/vladimir-putin-mosco
w-press-trump.html?rref=collection%2Fbyline%2Fjim-rutenberg&action=click&contentCollection=undefined®ion=stream&module=stream_unit&version=latest&contentPlacement=1&pgtype=collection&_r=0









T


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Saturday, August 12, 2023 8:56 AM

JAYNEZTOWN


Lucas: Biden’s Trump attacks echo Putin’s playbook

https://www.bostonherald.com/2023/08/10/lucas-bidens-trump-attacks-ech
o-putins-playbook
/


Hunter Biden and Donald Trump Should Both Have Jury Trials

https://reason.com/2023/08/11/hunter-biden-and-donald-trump-should-bot
h-have-jury-trials
/

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Monday, November 20, 2023 2:21 PM

THG


Quote:

Originally posted by THGRRI:

MOSCOW — I wanted to better understand President Trump’s America,
a place where truth is being ripped from its moorings as he brands
those tasked with lashing it back into place — journalists — as dishonest
enemies of the people. So I went to Russia.

It was like a visit to the land of Alternative Truth Yet to Come.
But it also gave me a glimpse into how our new national look
is playing in the global information war, where competing
narratives are clashing along a sliding scale of fact and fiction.



https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/16/business/media/vladimir-putin-mosco
w-press-trump.html?rref=collection%2Fbyline%2Fjim-rutenberg&action=click&contentCollection=undefined®ion=stream&module=stream_unit&version=latest&contentPlacement=1&pgtype=collection&_r=0









T

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