REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Disagreements

POSTED BY: DREAMTROVE
UPDATED: Monday, February 27, 2017 01:37
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Saturday, February 25, 2017 11:11 PM

DREAMTROVE


Been gnawing about this.

We disagree. Which is good. Because that makes you, you, and me, me. And if the world was me me me me me and me, it would be a very boring placem and we'd be a moron, all of the me's, because we'd all hear my ideas back to me and say, "that's brilliant, me."

So, suddenly all debates have fractured in my head. Now I see there are two types of disagreements, those that a difference of opinion, which is based on our experiences, and what we weigh as important. For example, I'd always weighed the problems FDR created as important, River saw him for all the problems he solved.

The other is debates about facts. These are important, but they are also the less virulent or hostile of arguments. This is where there is a question as to what happened in Benghazi, which is a matter that has now been settled to my satisfaction. There will be many others.

So, in the future, I will, not just here, but everywhere, make that my first step, is to identify if this is a debate about opinion or fact. I'll abandon the transgender thread, because that's clearly opinion, since the science is still out, it's impossible for either side to win that argument.

Trump is trickier. At the moment, I think views on Trump are based on opinion. He's an obnoxious guy, for example. Or that someone has too much influence on him. But it will probably be a while before there are facts.

I gave Bush 18 months before deciding on an opnion about Bush, so at the moment, I don't even have an opinion on Trump, let alone any facts.

All of that said, I see no problem in opinion threads. The thread about religion by necessity must be opinion, since there are no facts on God. As a Taoist I'm at odds with my own religion, in that Taoism does not allow for a God to be known. Perhaps it can exist, but I suspect it is inseparable from the flow of all life. That contrasts sharply with the idea of a literal scripture, as a Jew. So some debates are insoluble even internally. It's sort of liek C=2B+A; solve for X.

I guess the only active thread I didn't mention here is my Poisonous Pam. That's a theory. Not my theory, it's a friends, but it's not pasta. A theory is neither opinion nor fact, it's piece of information headed towards become fact. So I suppose these are worthwhile towards knowing the truth.

A last thought on this: In the past I've run across threads where I was completely ignorant and someone else had facts. There wasn't much of an argument there, and yet it was the most informative thing I've read on RWED, which was Antimason's thread about Property Rights.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=44076
The video has been removed, but reposted here


The maker of the video is one of us, who is sadly no longer with us
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=3347
Life is short. Value it, every little piece of it. Every ray of sunshine.

Keep is Shiny

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Saturday, February 25, 2017 11:45 PM

WISHIMAY


I think narrowing everything down to fact or opinion is incomplete. You also have to factor your own emotional reaction and decide if you act out of fear or instinct.

Emotions are a primitive holdover from our tribal days that impede rational logical provable thought. (Fear really IS the mind killer) Instinct also rarely has anything to do with intelligence.

They are both the LAST step to making a tempered decision, and I find are best used in a relatable way such as "How would this particular situation make ME feel."

Like I said, I would love for you to walk in the opposite gender bathroom and tell me you'd be ok with doing that the rest of your life. I sure as hell wouldn't.

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Sunday, February 26, 2017 12:07 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


As I've grown older I've realized that there aren't really that many facts out there. Kind of like, the more you know the less you know.

You mention property rights as facts. That's one of the few examples of facts that you can actually say are fact. If there are laws, no matter if you agree or disagree with them, it is a fact that those laws exist. That says nothing about how effective the laws are in achieving their goals, or how easy they may be to circumvent. It's just a truth that on paper, those laws exist and they are there for anybody to read.

What is the weight of a 12 oz. can of soda? How tall is the tallest mountain or skyscraper? The answers to these questions would be facts.

As for any events that happened in history, or are happening right now, I won't call any of those facts, even if they are written in some articles or books. Those types of "facts" change all the time. The more important those issues are, the less people are actually privy to the Truth.


Maybe it's not the MSM's fault, when you look at it this way. 95% or more of things you deal with everyday are just opinions that may or may not be based on facts.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Sunday, February 26, 2017 12:12 AM

DREAMTROVE



Quote:

Originally posted by Wishimay:
I think narrowing everything down to fact or opinion is incomplete. You also have to factor your own emotional reaction and decide if you act out of fear or instinct.


True, however, making one distinction is better than making none.
Quote:

Fear really IS the mind killer

How ironic. One of my personal disabilities is an inability to feel fear. Quite literally. I've had many guns pointed at my head and was recently hit by a bus. I had a head injury at 19, and this was one side effects. So, you're undoubtedly right.

I see hate as the main problem.
Quote:

"How would this particular situation make ME feel."
That is another good one, and one I generally use. And tried to use. The problem with it is that how it would make me feel is not the same as it would make you feel. I responded to you in the way I would have liked to be responded to.

Another example, I have a very high pain threshold, inhumanly so. So, when someone says they "can't do something because of the pain" I cannot fathom that. I figure you do it anyway. But then, I'm not them.
Quote:

Like I said
No threadjacks please.


Keep it Shiny


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Sunday, February 26, 2017 12:21 AM

DREAMTROVE


Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
As I've grown older I've realized that there aren't really that many facts out there. Kind of like, the more you know the less you know.


6,

True. Assume an infinite spectrum from opinion to fact, and then some grey area in the middle where everyone decides to draw their own line. I can at least prevent myself from crossing my own personal line.

This thread was really in reaction to my response to RiverLove's post on FDR. It made me think. Funny things make you think. You can go years fighting the most horrendous battles and never think. I means ants and termites do that. But then something you think is inconsequential, and then there's a moment of "wait a second..."

That's what happened with me and Antimason. Here was a christian preacher, and I said something about scripture, and he was willing to re-organize his world view if I could prove my point. I'd never been in a theological argument before, and I'd been in countless political ones, and never gotten anywhere. It led to he and I looking up sites online and tracing back the true origins of the bible. Fascinating, and I'll never regret it.

Quote:

You mention property rights as facts. That's one of the few examples of facts that you can actually say are fact. If there are laws, no matter if you agree or disagree with them, it is a fact that those laws exist. That says nothing about how effective the laws are in achieving their goals, or how easy they may be to circumvent. It's just a truth that on paper, those laws exist and they are there for anybody to read.

Right, and they were until post-civil war when they were unraveled by the mining industry, oddly the exact problem we're facing now with fracking.

Quote:

What is the weight of a 12 oz. can of soda? How tall is the tallest mountain or skyscraper? The answers to these questions would be facts.


Quote:

As for any events that happened in history, or are happening right now, I won't call any of those facts, even if they are written in some articles or books. Those types of "facts" change all the time. The more important those issues are, the less people are actually privy to the Truth.

And there's your personal gray line. If you're willing to treat it like science then you'd go with what you know or can learn today, and it might change tomorrow. Certainly anyone's view of cosmological history at the very least has to be changed by the proposed I suppose reality of time travel.
Quote:

Maybe it's not the MSM's fault, when you look at it this way. 95% or more of things you deal with everyday are just opinions that may or may not be based on facts.

Anything that any large organization does is always far more incompetence than conspiracy. It only takes a minute of watching Wolf Blitzer to realize that the reason he's misinforming the public is that he wouldn't know the truth if it came up and hit him in the face. Now that's an opinion, but it's almost a fact.


Keep it Shiny

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Sunday, February 26, 2017 8:54 AM

THGRRI


Good read and sound advice, check yourself at the door as to where a person is coming from. It won't matter to trolls and angry people who post and believe the worst, so it won't change much but I enjoyed the thought.

Quote:

Originally posted by DREAMTROVE:
Been gnawing about this.

We disagree. Which is good. Because that makes you, you, and me, me. And if the world was me me me me me and me, it would be a very boring placem and we'd be a moron, all of the me's, because we'd all hear my ideas back to me and say, "that's brilliant, me."

So, suddenly all debates have fractured in my head. Now I see there are two types of disagreements, those that a difference of opinion, which is based on our experiences, and what we weigh as important. For example, I'd always weighed the problems FDR created as important, River saw him for all the problems he solved.

The other is debates about facts. These are important, but they are also the less virulent or hostile of arguments. This is where there is a question as to what happened in Benghazi, which is a matter that has now been settled to my satisfaction. There will be many others.

So, in the future, I will, not just here, but everywhere, make that my first step, is to identify if this is a debate about opinion or fact. I'll abandon the transgender thread, because that's clearly opinion, since the science is still out, it's impossible for either side to win that argument.

Trump is trickier. At the moment, I think views on Trump are based on opinion. He's an obnoxious guy, for example. Or that someone has too much influence on him. But it will probably be a while before there are facts.

I gave Bush 18 months before deciding on an opnion about Bush, so at the moment, I don't even have an opinion on Trump, let alone any facts.

All of that said, I see no problem in opinion threads. The thread about religion by necessity must be opinion, since there are no facts on God. As a Taoist I'm at odds with my own religion, in that Taoism does not allow for a God to be known. Perhaps it can exist, but I suspect it is inseparable from the flow of all life. That contrasts sharply with the idea of a literal scripture, as a Jew. So some debates are insoluble even internally. It's sort of liek C=2B+A; solve for X.

I guess the only active thread I didn't mention here is my Poisonous Pam. That's a theory. Not my theory, it's a friends, but it's not pasta. A theory is neither opinion nor fact, it's piece of information headed towards become fact. So I suppose these are worthwhile towards knowing the truth.

A last thought on this: In the past I've run across threads where I was completely ignorant and someone else had facts. There wasn't much of an argument there, and yet it was the most informative thing I've read on RWED, which was Antimason's thread about Property Rights.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=44076
The video has been removed, but reposted here

The maker of the video is one of us, who is sadly no longer with us

Life is short. Value it, every little piece of it. Every ray of sunshine.

Keep is Shiny



---------------------


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Sunday, February 26, 2017 10:30 AM

DREAMTROVE


Quote:

Originally posted by THGRRI:
Good read and sound advice, check yourself at the door as to where a person is coming from. It won't matter to trolls and angry people who post and believe the worst, so it won't change much but I enjoyed the thought.


Sure, I was thinking about why that was. Politics itself is poisonous. The people here can get along fine on other boards.

I think that most people aren't actually that well informed, I certainly wasn't, and when someone threatens a dearly held believe, the belief holder will respond with a a sort of media programmed argument. To that end, the media creates as many dearly held beliefs as it can, to maintain that audience, for control, destruction or profit. Most of the serious debates here are about which it is in a given case, but no one ever puts it like that. Anything political outside of that tends not an debate but a word salad food fight

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Sunday, February 26, 2017 11:07 AM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by DREAMTROVE:
Quote:

Originally posted by THGRRI:
Good read and sound advice, check yourself at the door as to where a person is coming from. It won't matter to trolls and angry people who post and believe the worst, so it won't change much but I enjoyed the thought.


Sure, I was thinking about why that was. Politics itself is poisonous. The people here can get along fine on other boards.

I think that most people aren't actually that well informed, I certainly wasn't, and when someone threatens a dearly held believe, the belief holder will respond with a a sort of media programmed argument. To that end, the media creates as many dearly held beliefs as it can, to maintain that audience, for control, destruction or profit. Most of the serious debates here are about which it is in a given case, but no one ever puts it like that. Anything political outside of that tends not an debate but a word salad food fight



The case here with many is the dearly held BELIEF, ( remember what I said about throwing stones, only making a point not criticizing ), is conservatism. Yes, progressive and socialistic beliefs as well. The debate here over media stories for some is built on never admit fault. So the story is not questioned as being perhaps harsh or even containing a left leaning slant. No, it's immediately deemed as false and the source is demonized.



---------------------


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Sunday, February 26, 2017 12:13 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


lol

You found an ally in this thread, huh T?

DT's pretty much been ignoring your posts everywhere else. I think you need to check yourself.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Sunday, February 26, 2017 12:53 PM

DREAMTROVE


Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
lol

You found an ally in this thread, huh T?

DT's pretty much been ignoring your posts everywhere else. I think you need to check yourself.

Do Right, Be Right. :)


6,

Is that really necessary? Okay, I've skipped a lot of Si Shen's posts, unless they're to me. But if he's joining me in turning over a new leaf, that's good.


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Sunday, February 26, 2017 3:12 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by DREAMTROVE:
6,

Is that really necessary? Okay, I've skipped a lot of Si Shen's posts, unless they're to me. But if he's joining me in turning over a new leaf, that's good.




Fair enough. Don't get your hopes up.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Sunday, February 26, 2017 4:53 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


In the spirit of this idea, I have provided a reference, to show a fact vs. opinion.

Quote:

Originally posted by DREAMTROVE:
Been gnawing about this.

We disagree. Which is good. Because that makes you, you, and me, me. And if the world was me me me me me and me, it would be a very boring placem and we'd be a moron, all of the me's, because we'd all hear my ideas back to me and say, "that's brilliant, me."

So, suddenly all debates have fractured in my head. Now I see there are two types of disagreements, those that a difference of opinion, which is based on our experiences, and what we weigh as important. For example, I'd always weighed the problems FDR created as important, River saw him for all the problems he solved.


Reference: the post 3 days ago in this thread:
http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=19190
Quote:


The other is debates about facts. These are important, but they are also the less virulent or hostile of arguments. This is where there is a question as to what happened in Benghazi, which is a matter that has now been settled to my satisfaction. There will be many others.

So, in the future, I will, not just here, but everywhere, make that my first step, is to identify if this is a debate about opinion or fact. I'll abandon the transgender thread, because that's clearly opinion, since the science is still out, it's impossible for either side to win that argument.

Trump is trickier. At the moment, I think views on Trump are based on opinion. He's an obnoxious guy, for example. Or that someone has too much influence on him. But it will probably be a while before there are facts.

I gave Bush 18 months before deciding on an opnion about Bush, so at the moment, I don't even have an opinion on Trump, let alone any facts.

All of that said, I see no problem in opinion threads. The thread about religion by necessity must be opinion, since there are no facts on God. As a Taoist I'm at odds with my own religion, in that Taoism does not allow for a God to be known. Perhaps it can exist, but I suspect it is inseparable from the flow of all life. That contrasts sharply with the idea of a literal scripture, as a Jew. So some debates are insoluble even internally. It's sort of liek C=2B+A; solve for X.

I guess the only active thread I didn't mention here is my Poisonous Pam. That's a theory. Not my theory, it's a friends, but it's not pasta. A theory is neither opinion nor fact, it's piece of information headed towards become fact. So I suppose these are worthwhile towards knowing the truth.

A last thought on this: In the past I've run across threads where I was completely ignorant and someone else had facts. There wasn't much of an argument there, and yet it was the most informative thing I've read on RWED, which was Antimason's thread about Property Rights.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=44076
The video has been removed, but reposted here

The maker of the video is one of us, who is sadly no longer with us
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=3347
Life is short. Value it, every little piece of it. Every ray of sunshine.

Keep is Shiny


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Sunday, February 26, 2017 9:55 PM

DREAMTROVE


JSF, Thanks

some areas are more grey, ones of policy, light rights. What constitutes a right is probably fact, what constitutes a violation of right is probably opinion, that's about where my gray line would fall.

By contrast, what constitutes a death is definitely a fact. That a death is more serious a human rights infraction on a right is my opinion, based on the above idea that what constitutes a right is opinion.

Your mileage may vary


Been a while since he actually said that I think.

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Monday, February 27, 2017 1:37 AM

SOCKPUPPET


Give it up, it's hopeless. This place is a cannibal feeding frenzy. Better luck talking sense into a wall of army ants.

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