Brexit vote Thursday June 23 by SIGNYM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Happening today.

What bothers me about it is that there will be no exit polls. That way, there is no check on whether the vote was manipulated or not. No matter how the vote turns out, people should be outraged about how it was conducted.

Typical Russian trolling. England bad

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Thursday, June 23, 2016 3:05 PM

Hey SIG, where's your outrage now?

Tell us SIG, what bothers you about this comrade troll.

The Constitutionality of Vladimir Putin's Third Term

Almost as soon as the election results declaring Vladimir Putin's election were certified, Russia's nascent opposition immediately challenged the results as illegitimate. The League of Voters, for instance, argued that the massive irregularities, use of administrative resources, and abuse of law discredited "the institutions of the Russian presidency, the Russian electoral system, and the entire Russian state." The Putin regime has responded in part by stressing the importance of legality and constitutionality. First, it has reiterated its now-familiar refrain: If you have problems with the elections you should pursue these claims through the constitutionally-guaranteed judicial process. More importantly, on the day after the disputed presidential election, outgoing President Medvedev introduced a bill outlining the formation of a Constitutional Assembly that could redraft the Russian constitution. This bill - which Mr. Medvedev had promised to deliver after a February 20 meeting with the new, non-systemic opposition - will determine the rules for forming a Constitutional Assembly.

http://www.brookings.edu/research/opinions/2012/03/09-constitutionalit
y-putin-partlett

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Thursday, June 23, 2016 6:14 PM

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
What bothers me about it is that there will be no exit polls.

And no little green men with machine guns supervising the vote, like in truly democratic Russian referenda.

#WesternDemocracyIsASham
#VladimirPutinForever

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Thursday, June 23, 2016 7:31 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Brexit early returns favor Remain by 52%-48%. Pretty tight.

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/polls-close-historic-eu-referendum-210824856
.html

They worry about exit poll influence in a nation spanning a single time zone, right?
While America's contiguous States span 4 time zones, something like 6 with HI and AK.

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Thursday, June 23, 2016 7:42 PM

Ladies and gentlemen above you will see a post by another of our posters that post without thinking. One time zone or not, we now live in a world with 24 hour a day news. You could be home eating your lunch before heading off to vote and hear exit polls giving you information which could sway your vote.

Will someone please explain it to the above poster. I'd rather not.

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Friday, June 24, 2016 7:18 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Truth is, A U.K. law prohibits news organizations from reporting how people voted before polls close.

Wow, what an idiot. That law exists here too. But that doesn't keep news organizations from HOLDING exit polls here. Independent exit polls are used worldwide to verify the honesty of vote counting.

Quote:
I'm guessing they don't want early poll numbers to affect late voters. Of course, that makes perfect sense. And it's not like exit polls can't be muddled with. So outrage over nothing.

And it's not like vote counting can't be muddle with. Overall, exit polls are as, or more, reliable than vote counting. Now, I wouldn't be outraged over the lack of exit polls if they hadn't revealed SYSTEMATIC VOTE COUNTING FRAUD IN THE USA ALREADY.

What? Never heard of it?

Quote:
The first indication that something was gravely amiss on November 2nd, 2004, was the inexplicable discrepancies between exit polls and actual vote counts. Polls in thirty states weren't just off the mark -- they deviated to an extent that cannot be accounted for by their margin of error. In all but four states, the discrepancy favored President Bush.

Over the past decades, exit polling has evolved into an exact science. Indeed, among pollsters and statisticians, such surveys are thought to be the most reliable. Unlike pre-election polls, in which voters are asked to predict their own behavior at some point in the future, exit polls ask voters leaving the voting booth to report an action they just executed. The results are exquisitely accurate: Exit polls in Germany, for example, have never missed the mark by more than three-tenths of one percent.

"Exit polls are almost never wrong," Dick Morris, a political consultant who has worked for both Republicans and Democrats, noted after the 2004 vote. Such surveys are "so reliable," he added, "that they are used as guides to the relative honesty of elections in Third World countries."

In 2003, vote tampering revealed by exit polling in the Republic of Georgia forced Eduard Shevardnadze to step down. And in November 2004, exit polling in the Ukraine -- paid for by the Bush administration -- exposed election fraud that denied Viktor Yushchenko the presidency.

But that same month, when exit polls revealed disturbing disparities in the U.S. election, the six media organizations that had commissioned the survey treated its very existence as an embarrassment. Instead of treating the discrepancies as a story meriting investigation, the networks scrubbed the offending results from their Web sites and substituted them with ''corrected'' numbers that had been weighted, retroactively, to match the official vote count. Rather than finding fault with the election results, the mainstream media preferred to dismiss the polls as flawed.

In scientific parlance, that's called "fudging your data".

Quote:
But as the evening progressed, official tallies began to show implausible disparities -- as much as 9.5 percent -- with the exit polls. In ten of the eleven battleground states, the tallied margins departed from what the polls had predicted. According to Steven F. Freeman, a visiting scholar at the University of Pennsylvania who specializes in research methodology, the odds against all three of those shifts occurring in concert are one in 660,000.

"As much as we can say in sound science that something is impossible," he says, "it is impossible that the discrepancies between predicted and actual vote count in the three critical battleground states of the 2004 election could have been due to chance or random error."

He and several other high-powered statisticians came out and said outright that the only explanation that can't be ruled out is FRAUD.

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0601-34.htm

Again, you probably don't recall because your collective heads were stuck up your collective asses, but this follows the 2000 election, which was decided by the Supreme Court's refusal to allow a recount of FLA votes, with their "hanging chads".

We all got an education .... those of us who were paying attention, anyway, which doesn't include you ... about the actual error rates inherent in different methods of vote-registering (chad-punching, inkablot voting, lever-pulling, touchscreen etc) and counting (computerized versus hand counting).

Now, the curious thing about THAT election is that a consortium of 7 newspapers decided to recount the entire FLA vote ... the whole thing, not just the parts with the "hanging chad" problem. Many months later, they came up with the startling finding that the hanging chad issue didn't change the vote at all, whether they counted fully-punched, three-corner perforation, two-corner perforation, one-corner perforation, or dimples. (On such does our vote rest!)

Nope, the counties that made the MOST difference were the richest ones, where the voting was touchscreen and counted by computer. The recount swung the FLA vote to Gore.

NUMBERS DON'T LIE.

There was a movement against computerized vote-counting called Black Box Voting, which demonstrated over and over how EASY it was to manipulate the vote counting. By, among other things, pre-loading the vote-counting box with votes for your favorite candidate- (ie. electronic ballot-box stuffing) or embedding code in the vote-counting software to swing very xth vote to the candidate of your choice. What they were insisting on was a paper-tape backup, kind of like a cash-register receipt, which could be counted in case of questions, instead of relying in ephemeral bits and bytes.

You don't have to swing EVERY vote, or EVERY election your way, but in "battleground" areas where the vote is close, you CAN swing the count in your favor. I always thought that the FLA vote - with its vigorous purge of voter rolls and its electronic voting fiasco- was Karl Rove's trial run for the 2004 election.

Anyway. I hope your learned something.

--------------
I'll tell you what I DON'T like about Trump: I think that he has never confronted either the international banking cartel, nor the CIA-State Dept multi-headed hydra, nor the military-industrial complex. The last person to confront them was JFK (BTW, ALL immigration was illegal under JFK) and look what happened to him.

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Friday, June 24, 2016 7:21 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

It's All Over As "Leave" Wins Brexit Referendum: Markets Everywhere Are Crashing

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-06-23/nailbiter-continues-here-are-
first-official-results-and-they-give-bremain-some-hope

Brexit: David Cameron to quit after UK votes to leave EU

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-36615028

--------------
I'll tell you what I DON'T like about Trump: I think that he has never confronted either the international banking cartel, nor the CIA-State Dept multi-headed hydra, nor the military-industrial complex. The last person to confront them was JFK (BTW, ALL immigration was illegal under JFK) and look what happened to him.

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Friday, June 24, 2016 7:34 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

What this reminds me of is the Greek vote on austerity. The polls were saying it was a close vote, and most Greeks assumed that the pro-EU party would win, but in the end, 60% voted against austerity and against the EU.

What happened after THAT was a different story! Tsipras (Greek PM) was hoping that people would vote for staying in. In other words, although he campaigned on an anti-austerity platform he was hoping to lose the vote. In the end, he ignored the will of the people. The Finance Minister- Yanis Veroufakis - resigned, and there have been riots ever since (never covered by the press).

--------

I had a feeling the vote would turn out this way, but I didn't want to say anything. The reason why is because NPR - ever the purveyor of Democratic National Committee POV- started to CAUTIOUSLY cover the Brexit story two days ago (which they had been avoiding) and- even more telling- started to discuss a Brexit.

All of the opinions lining up behind Bremain were (1) banks (2) American businessmen manufacturing in Britain and exporting to the EU (3) British businessmen exporting to the EU and (4) EU citizens living in Britain. The nail in coffin - not only for what was said but also for the fact that it was broadcast - was an interview with a famous British author (whose name I forget) when cautiously asked " What do you tell people who want to remain in the EU?" responded "I haven't met anyone who does!". TPTB did everything they could to win the vote. I wouldn't discard the concept of outright vote fraud either. An exit poll might have resulted in much higher Brexit percentages. But the vote is done. Now we see what TPTB do about it.

--------------
I'll tell you what I DON'T like about Trump: I think that he has never confronted either the international banking cartel, nor the CIA-State Dept multi-headed hydra, nor the military-industrial complex. The last person to confront them was JFK (BTW, ALL immigration was illegal under JFK) and look what happened to him.

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Friday, June 24, 2016 7:46 AM

JAYNEZTOWN

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
It's All Over As "Leave" Wins Brexit Referendum: Markets Everywhere Are Crashing

some vids

the BBC

Tony Blair on Brexit - BBC News

more

papers

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Friday, June 24, 2016 7:50 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:

I learned you still can't see the forest for the trees no matter how you think you know or how much you type.

Let's unpack your bullshit:

No, let's unpack YOUR bullshit

Quote:
Why did you whine about "no exit polls" and then say there were?

I didn't.

Quote:
There really is a law in the UK banning them - fact.

No. there. is. not. There are laws banning the results of exit polls from being BROADCAST while people are still voting. That's a common point between the USA and the UK. Or, are you confused about the difference between conducting a poll versus broadcasting the results?

Quote:
Of course that doesn't keep people from doing them - they just call them opinion polls instead.

No, an "opinion poll" is conducted BEFORE an election. An exit poll is conducted near the polling place, with people who have just voted.

Quote:
"And it's not like vote counting can't be muddle with. Overall, exit polls are as, or more, reliable than vote counting."

Cites - muddle is muddle. NUMBERS DO LIE. Numbers do whatever someone with resources and desire wants them to do. NUMBERS OBEY.

But number gathered by independent organizations who have no particular dog in the fight more often come out accurately than numbers counted by those with a vested interest.

Quote:
You even showed why exit polls can't be trusted in your post:
"Rather than finding fault with the election results, the mainstream media preferred to dismiss the polls as flawed."

No, I showed why the mainstream media can't be trusted. Apparently you missed an important point in the article.

Statisticians ... people who work with sampling statistics and error bands and who know what kind of error to expect from exit polls ... went over the Mitosfky exit poll IN THE USA and determined that the ONLY explanation that couldn't be ruled out was fraud. Between academics who study such things, and the mainstream media, I trust the academics more.

Quote:
MY POINT EXACTLY - thank you, you silly twit.

That may have been YOUR point- and it was a stupid one!- but it wasn't mine, and it wasn't the author's.

I followed this very closely at the time - both the FLA recount and the 2004 exit poll anomaly, there is a lot more information that I could bring to the discussion and some original articles, but your eyes glaze over after 140 characters, and I'm not sure that your mind is functional anyway, so I won't bother.

Honestly, I can't believe that someone who is as ignorant of simple facts- like the difference between an opinion poll and an exit poll- would have th balls to opine so freely and so abysmally on the internet. My god, that anyone lets you near a computer! Your phone is smarter than you are!

--------------
I'll tell you what I DON'T like about Trump: I think that he has never confronted either the international banking cartel, nor the CIA-State Dept multi-headed hydra, nor the military-industrial complex. The last person to confront them was JFK (BTW, ALL immigration was illegal under JFK) and look what happened to him.

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Friday, June 24, 2016 8:03 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

One of the funny observations to make is the EU, UK, and USA stock market and pound sterling futures.

All of a sudden, they take a nose-dive? You mean, they actually believed their own bullshit opinion polls????

That makes as much sense as believing bullshit unemployment numbers! Or bullshit GDP numbers! No wonder they're so screwed up, they believe their own propaganda!

I'm laughing hysterically at the carnage. I'm surprised you can't hear me all the way over there.

--------------
I'll tell you what I DON'T like about Trump: I think that he has never confronted either the international banking cartel, nor the CIA-State Dept multi-headed hydra, nor the military-industrial complex. The last person to confront them was JFK (BTW, ALL immigration was illegal under JFK) and look what happened to him.

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Friday, June 24, 2016 9:00 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I guess we get to see HOW well-capitalized the banks really are!

--------------
I'll tell you what I DON'T like about Trump: I think that he has never confronted either the international banking cartel, nor the CIA-State Dept multi-headed hydra, nor the military-industrial complex. The last person to confront them was JFK (BTW, ALL immigration was illegal under JFK) and look what happened to him.

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Friday, June 24, 2016 10:57 AM

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

A sad day. Young voters voted overwhelmingly to remain, but have had their future decided for them by older voters:

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I'm laughing hysterically at the carnage. I'm surprised you can't hear me all the way over there.

Sounds about right.

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Friday, June 24, 2016 10:59 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Because they [academic statisticians] could never be bought? What Russian fairy village did you grow up in?

No, because they shared the numbers and explained their process and their findings, and anyone was welcome to re-investigate their work. As opposed to a secret ballot whose counting procedures can't always be validated.

Quote:
Only shows how easily you can be fooled. "They called it an Opinion poll so it must be. Carry on!" -GSTRING

They called it an opinion poll because the results came out BEFORE the vote. My god, GSTRING, get a grip on reality!

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I'm laughing hysterically at the carnage. I'm surprised you can't hear me all the way over there. -SIGNY

Comrade SPUTNYK laughing at other's pain. The reveal is complete, the mask comes off and the grotesque figure smiles a near toothless smile. (maybe one silver tooth)

Like YOU don't laugh at "other's" pain? You don't laugh at some Syrians' pain? Or Russians'? Or Chinese? The difference between you and me is who we laugh at. I laugh at the pain of hedge fund managers, banksters, financiers, and the 0.01% "others" who have nothing to do with us, or the rest of the people on this board, or in fact most of the people in the world.

And if you're invested in the stock market, then you're an idiot. To use a crude phrase, what do stocks have bugger-all to do with the economy? It's a gambling casino and a way for the wealthy to make even more money, that's all. Don't play gambling games that you can't afford to lose.

--------------
I'll tell you what I DON'T like about Trump: I think that he has never confronted either the international banking cartel, nor the CIA-State Dept multi-headed hydra, nor the military-industrial complex. The last person to confront them was JFK (BTW, ALL immigration was illegal under JFK) and look what happened to him.

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Friday, June 24, 2016 11:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by G:
Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I'm laughing hysterically at the carnage. I'm surprised you can't hear me all the way over there.

Comrade SPUTNYK laughing at other's pain. The reveal is complete, the mask comes off and the grotesque figure smiles a near toothless smile. (maybe one silver tooth)

That would be fang G. One fang

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Friday, June 24, 2016 11:17 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I see you're all reduced to name-calling. As usual, you have nothing interesting to say. I'm outta here, for now. Have fun name-calling and picking your noses.

--------------
I'll tell you what I DON'T like about Trump: I think that he has never confronted either the international banking cartel, nor the CIA-State Dept multi-headed hydra, nor the military-industrial complex. The last person to confront them was JFK (BTW, ALL immigration was illegal under JFK) and look what happened to him.

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Friday, June 24, 2016 11:49 AM

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
Originally posted by THGRRI:
Quote:
Originally posted by G:
Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I'm laughing hysterically at the carnage. I'm surprised you can't hear me all the way over there.

Comrade SPUTNYK laughing at other's pain. The reveal is complete, the mask comes off and the grotesque figure smiles a near toothless smile. (maybe one silver tooth)

That would be fang G. One fang

Lol. Thanks guys, I needed a laugh today.

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Friday, June 24, 2016 1:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Brenda:
Colour me confused but are the Brits staying in the EU or leaving? Your graphs and posts make no sense to me right now.

They voted to leave Brenda.

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Friday, June 24, 2016 1:41 PM

JAYNEZTOWN

Britain as a whole voted out, Scotland and Northern Ireland voted to stay in but the majority vote means they leave the EU

Gibraltar also was able to vote in the Referendum. Not everyone could vote in the referendum – those in the Crown dependencies (Jersey, Guernsey and the Isle of Man) are ineligible for a start. Access to the Single Market appeals particularly to Gibraltar, Bermuda and the Falklands. Gibraltar overwhelmingly backs Remain because it frets about being left at the mercy of Spain. Many do not relish the thought of having to set up new treaties with the EU – a body that is “increasingly sceptical” of overseas territories, according to the Caribbean Council.

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Friday, June 24, 2016 2:23 PM

If you look at the growth rate in England it is at 7 plus percent since the crash. The rest of Europe excluding Germany is 0.3 % or so. If you look at the unemployment rate England is at around 5. something present. From there it goes to like 17% in Spain. England is paying in much more to Europe than it is getting back.

Also the English are looking at the future. Many refuse to realize that with global warming Europe is going to be very vulnerable to immigrants migrating to Europe in numbers that dwarf what they are dealing with now.

A major consequence to England could be Scotland voting to leave England so they may stay in the EU. Big misstate because the EU is a failed experiment. Watch Ireland as well. These directly effect the United Kingdom. Other European countries will follow England's lead. This does not affect NATO.

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Friday, June 24, 2016 3:45 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN

So far the Dow has only dropped about 600 points.
Many are making it sound like mayhem.

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Friday, June 24, 2016 7:19 PM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
What this reminds me of is the Greek vote on austerity. The polls were saying it was a close vote, and most Greeks assumed that the pro-EU party would win, but in the end, 60% voted against austerity and against the EU.

What happened after THAT was a different story!

There is only one way to change the EU – vote to leave the EU then negotiate a better deal with it.

A vote to depart could be used as a stick to negotiate not a full departure from the EU, but a better deal for the UK. “There is only one way to get the change we need, and that is to vote to go, because all EU history shows that they only really listen to a population when it says ‘No,'” Boris Johnson wrote. “It is time to seek a new relationship, in which we manage to extricate ourselves from most of the supranational elements.”
www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2016/03/16/boris-johnson-exclusive-there-i
s-only-one-way-to-get-the-change/

The measure Britons just voted for was an advisory not a mandatory referendum, meaning that it is not legally binding on the government. The prime minister is not required by the outcome to trigger Article 50. And, despite what senior figures in the EU and its other states might say, there is no way for them to force the UK to invoke Article 50.
http://jackofkent.com/2016/06/five-legal-points-about-the-leave-victor
y/

There is some wiggle room for a new government to try to find a compromise arrangement that would satisfy a larger share of the population than just the slim majority of voters who demanded separation.

Only about 160 of the 650 MPs elected last year want Britain to leave the EU. The overwhelming majority of Westminster MPs believes that leaving would be a mistake. Many believe it would be a very grave mistake. Not a few believe it would be calamitous. This experiment in direct democracy is hurtling towards a tradition of representative democracy like some giant asteroid towards a moon.
www.thetimes.co.uk/_TP_/article/pity-voters-deceived-by-the-pied-piper
s-of-brexit-vz3hpfm9x

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Saturday, June 25, 2016 4:51 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

My understanding is that EU officials are now telling UK officials "Leave, and make it snappy"

I don't think that the majority of UK voters would tolerate being ignored by their government, and at the same time it seems that EU bureaucrats don't want to dicker with the UK either. So any move to repair the EU and ignore the vote looks likely to end in tears.

I think people have been bamboozled into feeling that being "international" is cool and it feels like humanitarianism ... or solidarity ... or something ... but the reality is that there are no INTERNATIONAL democratic institutions to reflect their will. Right now, the only effect that people have - if any- is on their NATIONAL government, and if they give that up in favor of international authorities like the EU, they've simply given up any influence they might have had. Internationalism is a con job, really - just one more step into getting people to give up what influence they have over their government and putting themselves in thrall to something that doesn't listen to them at all. Look at the Greeks- they have been 100% unable to remove themselves from the yoke of the troika which is bleeding their economy dry. And it was designed that way.

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I'll tell you what I DON'T like about Trump: I think that he has never confronted either the international banking cartel, nor the CIA-State Dept multi-headed hydra, nor the military-industrial complex. The last person to confront them was JFK (BTW, ALL immigration was illegal under JFK) and look what happened to him.

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Saturday, June 25, 2016 5:56 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I thought these were funny ... Brexit. Grexit. Departugal. Italeave. Czechout. Oustria. Finish. Slovakout. Byegium.

also World’s 400 Richest People Lose $127 Billion on Brexit: Chart

Quote:
The world’s 400 richest people lost $127.4 billion Friday as global equity markets reeled from the news that British voters elected to leave the European Union. The billionaires lost 3.2 percent of their total net worth, bringing the combined sum to $3.9 trillion, according to the Bloomberg Billionaires Index. The biggest decline belonged to Europe’s richest person, Amancio Ortega, who lost more than $6 billion, while nine others dropped more than $1 billion, including Bill Gates, Jeff Bezos and Gerald Cavendish Grosvenor, the wealthiest person in the U.K.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-06-24/world-s-400-richest-
people-lose-127-billion-on-brexit-chart

I weep for them, I really .... Nah, who am I kidding? I'm still laughing hysterically.

But not to worry! The rich always have their interests taken care of! I'm sure the central banks will yak up more money to keep stock prices high.

--------------
I'll tell you what I DON'T like about Trump: I think that he has never confronted either the international banking cartel, nor the CIA-State Dept multi-headed hydra, nor the military-industrial complex. The last person to confront them was JFK (BTW, ALL immigration was illegal under JFK) and look what happened to him.

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Saturday, June 25, 2016 6:51 AM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:

there are no INTERNATIONAL democratic institutions to reflect their will. Right now, the only effect that people have - if any- is on their NATIONAL government . . . Look at the Greeks- they have been 100% unable to remove themselves from the yoke of the troika which is bleeding their economy dry. And it was designed that way.

There is a Greek story that directly applies to Brexit:

On 5 July 2015, the bailout referendum took place. Finance Minister Varoufakis had campaigned vigorously in favour of the 'No' vote, (No to the troika) against the united support for the 'Yes' of Greece's media and of Europe's leadership. To make his position clear, he declared on television that he would resign as Finance Minister if Greeks voted 'Yes'. The outcome of the vote was a resounding 61.5% vote in favour of 'No'. Varoufakis went on television, soon after the result was announced, to celebrate the Greeks' outstanding courage and to declare that the government was determined to honour this new mandate for a sensible, honourable agreement with its creditors. However, a few hours later, late into the night, Varoufakis resigned. In his resignation statement the following morning he said: that "other European participants" had expressed a wish for his absence. Later he explained that he decided to resign during a meeting with the Prime Minister, on the night of the referendum, during which he discovered that the Prime Minister, instead of being energised by the "No" vote, declared to Varoufakis his decision to acquiesce to the troika's terms. Unwilling to sign such a "surrender" document, Varoufakis chose to resign.

His explanation, published later by Harry Lambert, New Statesman, 13 July 2015, was this: "I’m not going to betray my own view, that I honed back in 2010, that this country must stop extending and pretending, we must stop taking on new loans pretending that we’ve solved the problem, when we haven’t; when we have made our debt even less sustainable on condition of further austerity that even further shrinks the economy; and shifts the burden further onto the have nots, creating a humanitarian crisis. It’s something I’m not going to accept, I’m not going to be party to."

On Friday 14 August, the government (without Varoufakis) pushed successfully through Parliament the 3rd Greek bailout agreement - the one that Varoufakis had described as a surrender document. The bailout Bill received 222 votes to 64 (as the conservative opposition voted in favour).

Varoufakis said that the UK should remain in the EU, but also campaign to democratise it: "My message is simple yet rich: those of us who disdain the democratic deficit in Brussels, those of us who detest the authoritarianism of a technocracy which is incompetent and contemptuous of democracy, those of us who are most critical of Europe have a moral duty to stay in Europe, fight for it, and democratise it." On 9 February 2016, Varoufakis launched the Democracy in Europe Movement 2025 (DiEM25) at the Volksbühne in Berlin.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yanis_Varoufakis

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Saturday, June 25, 2016 9:58 AM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
World’s 400 Richest People Lose $127 Billion on Brexit: Chart

Quote:
The world’s 400 richest people lost $127.4 billion Friday as global equity markets reeled from the news that British voters elected to leave the European Union.

I love the satirical headline:
Queen Elizabeth Screaming At Stockbroker To Dump Everything
www.theonion.com/article/queen-elizabeth-screaming-stockbroker-dump-ev
eryth-53157

also:
Americans Confused By System Of Government In Which Leader Would Resign After Making Terrible Decision
www.theonion.com/article/americans-confused-system-government-which-le
ader--53156

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Saturday, June 25, 2016 11:03 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Yes, the "Bremain" contingent ... of which there are many ... could always try to undo the vote. It worked in Greece, despite a resounding percentage in the opposite direction, did it not?

BTW, I listened to a couple of Varoufakis speeches about what was going on in the background. There were many interesting points in it, Varoufakis actually knew that the EC would shut the Greek banks and he had a plan for that (banking thru the Greek IRS system instead) and he also had a secret weapon in his negotiations (haircutting the bonds held by Germany, long story). But he was absolutely savaged by the EU press, and in the end he was stabbed in the back - as were many Greeks- by their Prime Minister Tsipras.

Among other things he said that the European Parliament (which is elected) is only a confirming body, they can only approve of laws crafted by the European Commission. So, as he said, the democratic body can't make decisions, and the deciding body isn't democratic.

Both the EC and the European Central Bank were designed to be run by "technocrats" .... the ECB specifically when crafting its monetary policy is mostly immune to the cries and sighs of the various Finance Ministers of the EU, altho the ECB DOES bend to the German Finance Minister. As Varoufakis said "They treat Finance Ministers like vermin". That's how the ECB was able to impose a regime of "austerity" on its member states, despite the needs of the individual member states for a more realistic policy, which created a significant downturn in the EU economy (which I predicted at the time).

All this as specific examples why "internationalism" is a con job. "Internationalism", in all of its aspects so far, is non-democratic.

Other examples are the "free trade" deals (NAFTA, CAFTA, TTIP, TPP), which remove authority from elected national governments on economic, copyright, environmental, labor, and other policies, and grant those decisions to a council of international trade lawyers who represent only international businesses. Just like the EU, it puts those decisions out of the hands of the people and into the hands of the unelected/ non-representative.

People who desire "internationalism" out of some vague feeling of humanitarianism have completely abdicated their ability to influence policy. Which will be decided, not by some equally vague international humanitarian feeling, but by the banks and international corporations.

Thanks for the articles from The Onion, they were great!
---------------
I'll tell you what I DON'T like about Trump: I think that he has never confronted either the international banking cartel, nor the CIA-State Dept multi-headed hydra, nor the military-industrial complex. The last person to confront them was JFK (BTW, ALL immigration was illegal under JFK) and look what happened to him.

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Saturday, June 25, 2016 11:26 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Curiously, Brexit may also spell the end of the UK, as Scotland and N Ireland agitate for the independence they would need to snuggle back into the bosom of the EU.

All of that will take a while ... at least a year to gain independence, and another few years while the EU mulls over these new accessions.

In the meantime, the next vote to watch is THIS SUNDAY, as the Unidos Podemos Party may gain a solid boost from the Brexit vote, and overturn Rajoy's right-center caretaker government. Unidos Podemos is an anti-austerity political party. Let's hope they don't have any Tsipras-styled traitors in their midst.

--------------
I'll tell you what I DON'T like about Trump: I think that he has never confronted either the international banking cartel, nor the CIA-State Dept multi-headed hydra, nor the military-industrial complex. The last person to confront them was JFK (BTW, ALL immigration was illegal under JFK) and look what happened to him.

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Saturday, June 25, 2016 5:48 PM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

A petition calling for another referendum on whether Britain should stay in the European Union has now received at least 2.5 million signatures — a level that means it must now be debated by British politicians. It was apparently so popular that the British Parliament's website, where the petition was hosted, briefly crashed.

Quote:
We the undersigned call upon HM Government to implement a rule that if the remain or leave vote is less than 60% based a turnout less than 75% there should be another referendum.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215

The drive for a new referendum is coming from those who had hoped to "remain" in the E.U. Thursday's referendum was fairly close — the "leave" vote won with just 51.9 percent. And so the petition for a new referendum suggests there should be a rule that in referendums with less than 75 percent turnout (Thursday's vote was 72.2 percent), there should be another referendum unless a decision is reached by more than 60 percent of those voting.
www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/06/25/more-than-1-6-mil
lion-brits-signed-a-petition-for-another-referendum-they-shouldnt-hold-their-breath/

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Saturday, June 25, 2016 7:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by G:
Quote:
Originally posted by second:
A petition calling for another referendum on whether Britain should stay in the European Union has now received at least 2.5 million signatures — a level that means it must now be debated by British politicians. It was apparently so popular that the British Parliament's website, where the petition was hosted, briefly crashed.
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215

< incredulous > an online petition ??????? < / oy >

Done!

Incredulous, troll much SIG?

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Sunday, June 26, 2016 2:14 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
A petition calling for another referendum on whether Britain should stay in the European Union has now received at least 2.5 million signatures — a level that means it must now be debated by British politicians. It was apparently so popular that the British Parliament's website, where the petition was hosted, briefly crashed.
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215
< incredulous > an online petition ??????? < / oy >
Done!

GSTRING

Incredulous, troll much SIG?-THIRDSTOOGE

How stupid do you get? Do you think "I" filled out that petition??? Sheesh, you embarrass even your friends!

--------------
I'll tell you what I DON'T like about Trump: I think that he has never confronted either the international banking cartel, nor the CIA-State Dept multi-headed hydra, nor the military-industrial complex. The last person to confront them was JFK (BTW, ALL immigration was illegal under JFK) and look what happened to him.

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Sunday, June 26, 2016 3:33 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

One of the things that baffles me mightily is the acceptance of "nationalism" as being an out-of-date and dangerous concept which should be consigned to the dustbin of history. In its place, a squishy sort of "internationalism" is advocated. Internationalism is egalitarian, it's multicultural and just so cool. Anyone who isn't "multicultural" is obsolete.

What the advocates of "multiculturalism" don't seem to realize is that there are no international democratic institutions. All of the international structures, like the EU, "free trade" agreements, and even the UN, are out of the reach of most people. We can't vote on any of the policies that are decided on by international committees, technocrats, and arbitrators. If people were to look with any sort of clarity on the role of the Eurocrats in bringing unending unemployment to people of Southern Europe and how their economies are being sacrificed to support the Euro (currency), and how "free trade" agreements will ensure that decisions about the environment, labor, food safety etc. will be made by trade lawyers in secret courts only on the basis of their effect on international trade, "internationalism" stops looking so good.

By handing over the ability to take control of their own national policies, people have given up on being able to control ANY policy. And they've given it up and gotten nothing in return except a warm, fuzzy, meaningless feeling.

What is so wrong with wanting to be able to set national policies, to control (or at least manage) the production and flow of goods, the value of your national currency, and the number of people immigrating to your country? Who would rather have policy set by some faceless, distant bureaucrat five borders away? Don't we have enough problems of non-responsive government already, without making it a lot worse?

Curiously, judging by some of the people on this board, their warm fuzzy feeling of world solidarity ends the moment they encounter someone who TRULY thinks differently. One of the things that is beginning to horrify Germans, for example, is their encounter with large a large group of people who have entirely different views about what's right and wrong, what's important and unimportant, and who should decide. So even the self-congratulatory feeling of being a "person of the world" comes to a screeching halt when some of the other people of the world are TOO different, and those differences go beyond tasty food and interesting music. So much for multiculturalism!

--------------
I'll tell you what I DON'T like about Trump: I think that he has never confronted either the international banking cartel, nor the CIA-State Dept multi-headed hydra, nor the military-industrial complex. The last person to confront them was JFK (BTW, ALL immigration was illegal under JFK) and look what happened to him.

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Sunday, June 26, 2016 8:27 AM

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
Originally posted by G:
Quote:
Originally posted by second:
A petition calling for another referendum on whether Britain should stay in the European Union has now received at least 2.5 million signatures — a level that means it must now be debated by British politicians. It was apparently so popular that the British Parliament's website, where the petition was hosted, briefly crashed.
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215

< incredulous > an online petition ??????? < / oy >

Done!

Brilliant G

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Sunday, June 26, 2016 9:09 AM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:

Brilliant G

I see that a second EU Referendum petition has twenty time more signatures than the petition making it illegal for a company to require women to wear high heels at work.
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions?state=awaiting_debate

". . . many people signing it appear to be doing so from outside the UK. . . . Any signatures found to be fraudulent would be removed." - Second EU referendum petition investigated for fraud
www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36634407

If two percent of the voters had flipped from "leave" to "stay", the Brexit vote would have failed 49.9% versus 50.1%. To make a momentous decision based on only two percent is very odd. The US Constitution requires two-thirds majority vote in both the House of Representatives and the Senate and ratified by the legislatures of at least three-fourths of the states. For example, the 26th amendment needed those large majorities to lower the minimum voting age to eighteen.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-sixth_Amendment_to_the_United_Sta
tes_Constitution

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Sunday, June 26, 2016 10:19 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
If two percent of the voters had flipped from "leave" to "stay", the Brexit vote would have failed 49.9% versus 50.1%. To make a momentous decision based on only two percent is very odd. The US Constitution requires two-thirds majority vote in both the House of Representatives and the Senate and ratified by the legislatures of at least three-fourths of the states. For example, the 26th amendment required those large majorities to lower the minimum voting age to eighteen.

I wonder, SECOND, if the split wasn't even higher than counted. Any time a nation refuses to run exit polls, (or for that matter denies international observation), I start to wonder what they're up to. Here's an idea: Maybe TPTB did manipulate the vote. Maybe the real vote to Brexit was a lot higher than the count showed. Maybe it was more like a 10% split.

There was one thing I heard - more than once- about how people felt ahead of time, and it was this: Once outside of London, it was difficult to find ANYONE voting for Bremain. Apparently, Brexit sentiment was very strong, but the media coverage was so relentlessly negative that the Brexiteers felt isolated. But then, they came out higher numbers than expected. Maybe FAR higher numbers than expected. This is like the Greek vote, which turned out very, very different than what the polling anticipated.

I can't help thinking that someone ran the polling numbers, and told the top financialists ....Don't worry, we got this covered. . Which is why so much money poured into stocks and sterling. Only they didn't have it covered, at least not enough.

It's too bad nobody ran an actual exit poll, because now we'll never know how honest the vote counting really was. Maybe it was squeaky clean. But maybe it wasn't.

Just as an aside, there are British businessmen who have an interest in Brexit. It's the same split as in the USA Presidential election: The difference between NATIONAL businesses and INTERNATIONAL ones. In our case, Hillary would represent Bremain, and Trump would represent Brexit.

--------------
I'll tell you what I DON'T like about Trump: I think that he has never confronted either the international banking cartel, nor the CIA-State Dept multi-headed hydra, nor the military-industrial complex. The last person to confront them was JFK (BTW, ALL immigration was illegal under JFK) and look what happened to him.

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Sunday, June 26, 2016 10:22 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Brilliant G - KRAPO

And may I say that THUGR fell for it?

Quote:
I see that a second EU Referendum petition has twenty time more signatures than the petition making it illegal for a company to require women to wear high heels at work.
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions?state=awaiting_debate
". . . many people signing it appear to be doing so from outside the UK. . . . Any signatures found to be fraudulent would be removed." - Second EU referendum petition investigated for fraud
www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36634407
SECOND

Of course they'll be. In fact, I wonder if too many fraudulent signatures will invalidate the entire online poll. Yep, brilliant indeed!

But I see that the usual suspects, who have nothing of interest to say but who nonetheless believe in their own incomparable (ahem!) intelligence, have not responded at all to the thought that being a "person of the world" might be a fundamentally flawed identity.

Quote:
What the advocates of "multiculturalism" don't seem to realize is that there are no international democratic institutions. All of the international structures, like the EU, "free trade" agreements, and even the UN, are out of the reach of most people. We can't vote on any of the policies that are decided on by international committees, technocrats, and arbitrators. If people were to look with any sort of clarity on the role of the Eurocrats in bringing unending unemployment to people of Southern Europe and how their economies are being sacrificed to support the Euro (currency), and how "free trade" agreements will ensure that decisions about the environment, labor, food safety etc. will be made by trade lawyers in secret courts only on the basis of their effect on international trade, "internationalism" stops looking so good.

By handing over the ability to take control of their own national policies, people have given up on being able to control ANY policy. And they've given it up and gotten nothing in return except a warm, fuzzy, meaningless feeling.

What is so wrong with wanting to be able to set national policies, to control (or at least manage) the production and flow of goods, the value of your national currency, and the number of people immigrating to your country? Who would rather have policy set by some faceless, distant bureaucrat five borders away? Don't we have enough problems of non-responsive government already, without making it a lot worse?

Curiously, judging by some of the people on this board, their warm fuzzy feeling of world solidarity ends the moment they encounter someone who TRULY thinks differently. One of the things that is beginning to horrify Germans, for example, is their encounter with large a large group of people who have entirely different views about what's right and wrong, what's important and unimportant, and who should decide. So even the self-congratulatory feeling of being a "person of the world" comes to a screeching halt when some of the other people of the world are TOO different, and those differences go beyond tasty food and interesting music. So much for multiculturalism!

At the same time that these mental midgets insist that they are persons of the world who value other cultures, they think nothing of bombing the snot out whole nations!

May I suggest a national identity that will be far more progressive than the one they currently follow? It has a few key elements:

FIRST, DO NO HARM.
As a nation of the world, one is not entitled to destroy other nations EXCEPT in direct self-defense. Bringing god to the heathens or Bringing democracy to the tyrannies or R2P at the point of a gun just never seems to work well. Historically, all it's managed to do is kill a shitload of people and install even worse tyrannies than before.

PLAY FAIR: TRADE FAIR
Don't economically exploit your fellow-nations. Now, generally, the exploitation is imposed at the point of a gun, so if you're not pointing your gun at another nation to begin with, you probably won't be able to hijack their resources or their labor or their markets. But just in case that's a little too distant in terms of cause-and-effect, take care not to work through entities which extract huge profits, especially those that rely on corrupting or intimidating their "business partners". (And it's not like Nestle and Apple and Walmart don't know what they're doing.)

NEITHER A BORROWER NOR A LENDER BE
This works for internal financing as well as international relations. I know that international banking is the lifeblood of London (as well as international real estate) but Everests of unpayable debt simply don't lead to future prosperity, for anyone.

MIND YOUR OWN GARDEN
The best thing a nation can do, aside from not mucking around in other nations, is to improve the standard of living within their own borders without stealing from others. By creating a prosperous nation, you serve as a constant reminder to the victims of tyrants everywhere that another way is possible.

IF YOU WANT TO HELP, HELP
If the sight of corrupt, impoverished, brutalized nations drives you to distraction, and you're sure that you have in no way aided and abetted that process, then find some way to HELP. It could be anything from helping to drill wells to building schools, but real development, which helps real people, is the best way to move a nation out of bondage. Once people have a little extra food and some education, they can afford to start thinking about other, more abstract factors.

-------------
I'll tell you what I DON'T like about Trump: I think that he has never confronted either the international banking cartel, nor the CIA-State Dept multi-headed hydra, nor the military-industrial complex. The last person to confront them was JFK (BTW, ALL immigration was illegal under JFK) and look what happened to him.

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Sunday, June 26, 2016 11:05 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

And finally. Assuming that TPTB don't manage to find a way to delay or thwart Brexit entirely ....

Listening to the interview of a well-connected man, he said one thing that pointed to the future of Brexit. The reaction of the Eurocrats was that there should be two characteristics of Brexit:

1) It should be PAINFUL.
Contagion is to be avoided at all costs. No other nation should even think to leave the EU, with Britain hanging from a gibbet as an example. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibbeting Apparently, the EU doesn't think much of democracy, and is willing to thwart it whether it happens in Greece or in the UK or anywhere else. Or, as Steimeir (German FM said)

Quote:
"We won't let anyone [including the people, apparently] take Europe from us".

I can't imagine what punishment they'll cook up, but I'm sure it's a doozy! And who is "we" and "us" anyway?

2) It should be QUICK.
EU ministers believe that waiting until Cameron steps down and the Tories find a new PM -in October- is far too much uncertainty for the markets. Well, that right there pretty much tells you who they represent.

Again, assuming that TPTB don't find a way to block Brexit, I don't expect it to be easy. The closest example I can think of is Iceland, which went on a huge borrowing binge pre-2008. Man, it was party-time nationwide! But once their three major banks crashed in an orgy of self-dealing and corruption, the Icelanders did what no one else has done: They let their banks fold, nationalized them, and threw the bankers in jail. And this was AFTER the Parliament had voted to cave in! Iceland, like Britain, had a huge advantage over many other EU member states: It still had its own currency.

But while Icelanders did the right thing, they paid a price: Britain declared Iceland to be a "terrorist state" (for refusing to back British deposits in the Icelandic bank branches in Britain) and froze the Landsbanki assets in Britain, and British allies declared a freeze on all Icelandic assets everywhere. Iceland, in the throes of a financial crisis and a liquidity crisis, and with its financial lifelines cut, had to go begging for a creative loan from China. And although Iceland came through the ordeal in the end, their living standard has taken a hit: People are working harder for less.

I think there's a couple of reasons for that, but one of them is that a nation living within its means will never feel as prosperous as one borrowing to the hilt and partying like there's no tomorrow. Being responsible isn't going to be as much fun, there's no two ways about it. Britain - London, specially- is THE banking center of Europe. The British pound is (was?) unprecedentedly valued, making British purchases from the EU very cheap. In fact, that's one immediate complaint of young people: I won't be able to holiday in Europe like I used to.

--------------
I'll tell you what I DON'T like about Trump: I think that he has never confronted either the international banking cartel, nor the CIA-State Dept multi-headed hydra, nor the military-industrial complex. The last person to confront them was JFK (BTW, ALL immigration was illegal under JFK) and look what happened to him.

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Sunday, June 26, 2016 11:39 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"We won't let anyone take Europe from us".

Well, the Germans have a very comfortable role in the EU. The Greeks, Italians and Spanish - not so much. Or, more accurately, the German internationalists have a very comfortable role in the EU because they get to take advantage of other countries in the EU, especially the Greeks, Italians and Spanish. So of course they don't want the party to end!

"... although Iceland came through the ordeal in the end, their living standard has taken a hit: People are working harder for less."

As has the living standard of many people after 2008. Did Icelanders get disproportionately affected?

Let me just point out that the author left out vital relevant facts in the opinion piece. Doing that is known as cherry-picking. And whether you do that in the news, in discussion, in debate or in opinion, when you distort the facts, you've changed the nature of your communication into propaganda. But WE don't have any of THAT in the US, do we?!

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Sunday, June 26, 2016 11:55 AM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:

Again, assuming that TPTB don't find a way to block Brexit, I don't expect it to be easy. The closest example I can think of is Iceland, which went on a huge borrowing binge pre-2008. Man, it was party-time nationwide! But once their three major banks crashed in an orgy of self-dealing and corruption, the Icelanders did what no one else has done: They let their banks fold, nationalized them, and threw the bankers in jail.

But while Icelanders did the right thing, they paid a price: Britain declared Iceland to be a "terrorist state" (for refusing to back British deposits in the Icelandic bank branches in Britain) and froze the Landsbanki assets in Britain, and British allies declared a freeze on all Icelandic assets everywhere. Iceland, in the throes of a financial crisis and a liquidity crisis, and with its financial lifelines cut, had to go begging for a creative loan from China. And although Iceland came through the ordeal in the end, their living standard has taken a hit: People are working harder for less.

I think there's a couple of reasons for that, but one of them is that a nation living within its means will never feel as prosperous as one borrowing to the hilt and partying like there's no tomorrow. Being responsible isn't going to be as much fun, there's no two ways about it.

8 Apr, 2016: Three top figures from Iceland’s failed Kaupthing Bank have been released from jail after barely serving a quarter of their sentences due to a new law. The bankers have served just one year of their four-to-five year sentences. All were convicted of financial fraud ahead of the collapse of the country's biggest bank in October 2008.
www.rt.com/news/338869-iceland-imprisoned-bankers-free/

Because of bank fraud, the market capitalization of the Icelandic stock exchange fell by more than 90%. Most Icelanders felt impoverished, stopped buying and selling to one another and to overseas, and thus they went from merely feeling poorer to actually being poorer. In time Icelanders understood how they had made themselves poorer and corrected themselves. Their economy then corrected itself:
www.tradingeconomics.com/iceland/gross-national-product

Calling Iceland a terrorist state was PM Gordon Brown being dishonest to save his own worthless baby-boomer ass. Did it work, Gordon? Where are you today?
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2009/may/14/gordon-brown-iceland-fin
ance

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Sunday, June 26, 2016 12:14 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

http://www.fastcoexist.com/3045425/the-10-happiest-countries-in-the-wo
rld

The 10 happiest countries:

1: Switzerland
2: Iceland
3: Denmark
4: Norway
5: Canada
6: Finland
7: Netherlands
8: Sweden
9: New Zealand
10: Australia

And there's Iceland, near the top. While Germany, king of the EU, is absent from the list.

How did Icelanders end up so happy despite their rough trip through the Great Recession?

I read an article (not going to bother to dig it up) that Icelanders never felt like they were individually isolated during economic hard times. Nobody blamed the individuals or stopped helping or caring. The sense was that they were in it together - and that you would help out others, and you could count on them to help you, too.

The other point made in the article was the idea that even though they had lost a lot, they looked on it as an opportunity to start fresh, to avoid past mistakes, and to make it better.

I think that sense of optimism stems from the fact that their country, its economy, ethics, and future, are under their personal control, as opposed to the control of national and/ or international functionaries who pretty obviously have no interest in listening to the people. They don't feel trapped and helpless in a system rigged against them.

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Sunday, June 26, 2016 3:09 PM

ELVISCHRIST

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Happening today.

What bothers me about it is that there will be no exit polls. That way, there is no check on whether the vote was manipulated or not. No matter how the vote turns out, people should be outraged about how it was conducted.

I don't recall you being upset when the DNC did away with exit polls in the majority of states with closed primaries...

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Sunday, June 26, 2016 3:21 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"I don't recall you being upset when the DNC did away with exit polls in the majority of states with closed primaries..."

It did? I didn't know that! The DNC sucks even more than I thought, then.

It looks to me like the DNC is tightening its grip on the process, making itself even less accountable, and shutting voters out even more. YAY for the DNC, Debbie, Hillary, and Roberta and their strike for women's equality!! It just goes to show you don't have to be an old white male to be a power-hungry asshole.

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Sunday, June 26, 2016 5:03 PM

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I'm laughing hysterically at the carnage. I'm surprised you can't hear me all the way over there.

Hedge funds make money off Brexit vote - https://city.wsj.com/stories/17a2e642-feae-4353-9245-224dad1fb4de.html

Quote:
"Two of the early beneficiaries were London hedge-fund chieftains who took different views on the vote, but both wound up making money..."

Oh well Sig, at least plenty of ordinary working people will get hurt.

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Sunday, June 26, 2016 5:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
"I don't recall you being upset when the DNC did away with exit polls in the majority of states with closed primaries..."

It did? I didn't know that! The DNC sucks even more than I thought, then.

It looks to me like the DNC is tightening its grip on the process, making itself even less accountable, and shutting voters out even more. YAY for the DNC, Debbie, Hillary, and Roberta and their strike for women's equality!! It just goes to show you don't have to be an old white male to be a power-hungry asshole.

Your hypocrisy knows no bounds. How can you claim Hillary to be a power hungry bitch while remaining quite as a church mouse, when Putin changed the constitution to run for a third term. And to this day you remain a Putinett.

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Sunday, June 26, 2016 5:44 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"Your hypocrisy knows no bounds. How can you claim Hillary to be a power hungry bitch while remaining quite as a church mouse, when Putin changed the constitution to run for a third term."

I see you can't even quote correctly. Leave it to YOU to use the sexist term bitch when I used the utterly gender neutral term asshole.

How can you be such a brainless liar? Whatever the DNC is doing, they're pretending to do it. IN MY NAME. They're doing it. IN MY COUNTRY. And what they doing. DIRECTLY INFRINGES ON ME.

Or are you a Russian? Does the US not matter to you?

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Sunday, June 26, 2016 8:50 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Originally posted by ElvisChrist:
Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Happening today.

What bothers me about it is that there will be no exit polls. That way, there is no check on whether the vote was manipulated or not. No matter how the vote turns out, people should be outraged about how it was conducted.

I don't recall you being upset when the DNC did away with exit polls in the majority of states with closed primaries...

Then you have a VERY crappy memory! I was aghast and angry that the DNC didn't follow up on the very clear vote count manipulation that went on. They should have jumped right on it, and set national standards for vote count audit trails.

People deserve to have their vote counted fairly, damnit! The only reason that I could figure why the DNC didn't pursue the fraud was that they intended to use it themselves one day.

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I'll tell you what I DON'T like about Trump: I think that he has never confronted either the international banking cartel, nor the CIA-State Dept multi-headed hydra, nor the military-industrial complex. The last person to confront them was JFK (BTW, ALL immigration was illegal under JFK) and look what happened to him.

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Sunday, June 26, 2016 8:52 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Oh well Sig, at least plenty of ordinary working people will get hurt.

Now THAT is something I'm sure you'll laugh over!

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I'll tell you what I DON'T like about Trump: I think that he has never confronted either the international banking cartel, nor the CIA-State Dept multi-headed hydra, nor the military-industrial complex. The last person to confront them was JFK (BTW, ALL immigration was illegal under JFK) and look what happened to him.

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Sunday, June 26, 2016 10:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
"Your hypocrisy knows no bounds. How can you claim Hillary to be a power hungry bitch while remaining quite as a church mouse, when Putin changed the constitution to run for a third term."

I see you can't even quote correctly. Leave it to YOU to use the sexist term bitch when I used the utterly gender neutral term asshole.

How can you be such a brainless liar? Whatever the DNC is doing, they're pretending to do it. IN MY NAME. They're doing it. IN MY COUNTRY. And what they doing. DIRECTLY INFRINGES ON ME.

Or are you a Russian? Does the US not matter to you?

Thanks 1kiki. Everyone here will enjoy the hypocrisy of your post.

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Sunday, June 26, 2016 10:05 PM