REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Saudi Arabia: Foreign policy speculation

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Monday, January 11, 2016 08:33
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Sunday, December 6, 2015 11:03 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I know I had another thread about this elsewhere, but I'll be damned if I can find it now.

I that thread, I was speculating on Obama's deep foreign policy. I know that I've banged my head repeatedly over his apparent neocon actions.

And yet... sometimes I think that Hillary, in her position as Scy State, actually initiated many of these moments (Victoria "Fuck the EU" Nuland worked for Hillary, as did Christopher Stevens, who was our "highly experienced" ie CIA-connected Ambassador in Libya while CIA-orchestrated gun-running was going on thru Benghazi). It seems to me that Obama was surprised by some of these events.

Still, the USA policy seems overall neocon-interventionist, with one great exception: The deal with Iran. THAT was something that Obama truly pushed for, and got. And from a foreign policy standpoint, that was the bung in the bunghole: Once that was achieved, all kinds of other consequences came gushing out, including Iran's and Russia's alliance and their mutual assistance to Syria. Now, I can't believe that all of that was totally unpredicted. And as a foreign policy action, it sticks out to me like a raisin in a bowl of oatmeal.

What I see is that Russia, Syria, and Iran isolating Turkey in the Mideast, and Russia isolating Turkey internationally. Turkey is THE strategic nation through which all jihadist-assistance flows. Saudi Arabia would be impotent in the region without Turkey's assistance. Russia doesn't need to go head-to-head against NATO (unless NATO really pushes for a confrontation), all they need to do is cut the supply-lines from Turkey. Even BEFORE Putin started pointing out the Erdogan family's ISIL connections, I noticed that both Germany and the USA defanged Turkey by quietly removing their missiles. (The USA refused to extend the Patriot-missile contract in October.)

I was talking to my crazy-smart hubby and his well-connected, crazy-smart friends, and they were speculating about how, in similar fashion, Russia and Iran may be isolating Saudi Arabia. Again, Russia doesn't need to go against "the USA" in the Mideast when the neocon's next-weakest partner in the region is Saudi Arabia. As I understand it (from the western press' silence) the Saudi project in Yemen isn't going so well... Iran has committed quite a few troops to the project and (according to Iran) the Houthis are actually invading Saudi Arabia.

In addition, with the price of oil engineered to be so low, Saudi Arabia is suffering from its own price-policies, and its coffers are dropping drastically from lack of income as well as fighting a war on two fronts (Yemen and Syria). And finally, Saudi Arabia is suffering from a critical lack of water. They have pumped their aquifers dry, and are now entirely dependent on wheat imports to sustain their unsustainably enlarged population.

WHAT IF THE SAUDI WAHHABI GOVERNMENT WERE TO BE ELIMINATED AS A POLITICAL FORCE? It seems to be that the current Saudi monarchy is the poison tooth in the entire Asian/Mideastern jaw, fostering terrorism and instability from Tunisia to Nigeria to Xinjiang (China) to Malyasia, and requiring that the USA support a nation that is not only inimical to our long-term interests but also in deep contradiction to our advertised ethics of freedom and democracy?

WHAT IF OBAMA'S POLICY IS TO SUPPORT RUSSIA JUST ENOUGH SO THEY CAN DO OUR DIRTY WORK FOR US? What if he is hoping to do what the USA has done for a long time: play Russia against the mideast, only THIS time with the plan that Russia will emerge weakened but victorious?








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Sunday, December 6, 2015 4:21 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


If only people were that smart.

Maybe the Iran deal went through with fingers crossed - in the hopes that something in that direction may have been fostered at some future time. I don't see it falling like dominoes. It's more a small shift of the balance of power.




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Monday, December 7, 2015 9:57 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Well, maybe the Iran deal was an accident. But I posted some time ago that I felt that consequential shifts were taking place - for which I have little evidence. That old alliances were being broken, very, very quietly. It was a gut feeling and its still just a gut feeling.

Here is my argument for why Obama does NOT have a deep agenda:

One of the telltale signs would be to look for groups of advisors with whom Obama could share ideas. A government won't get far without them. Putin, I know, has a select council of military, financial, economic, foreign policy and internal political advisors. Apparently they have very far-ranging discussions, they discuss different options, but (like the military) once a decision is made they all agree to abide by it. Decisions can always be revisited at some later date if something changes or if the results aren't what was expected.

The Chinese system is a lot more inscrutable but from what I hear Xi Jingping has something of a tougher row to hoe. The Chinese leadership has been committed to state-run capitalism since Mao died, when there was a complete turnover of leadership, starting with Deng Xiaoping ("To get rich is glorious") and continuing thru Jiang Zemin and Hu Jintao. http://www.chinasage.info/leaders.htm As I understand it, since the former triumverate had a collective 34 years in power (1978-2012) it was able to appoint an entire system of sympathetic party officials. While Xi Jingping and his group of advisors and supporters have a new strategy, many previously-appointed bureaucrats and functionaries are dragging their feet and Jiang Zemin is still apparently agitating for power. Still, Xi Jingping has created a number of posts (most significantly one for internal security), has made a number of important appointments, and has a coterie of supporters and advisors who've been in government for a long time.

Now consider Obama: He was an outsider, and I believe TPTB sought to manipulate him by helpfully providing him with deep-state, fully-entrenched advisors in the Pentagon, State, CIA, and Congress, Hillary among them. By now, it should be fairly easy to trace out the neocon influence ... there is a direct line, for example, from Hillary to Nuland to Kagan (Nuland's deeply and openly neocon husband). I'm sure, if I were Obama, I would have those politics mapped out exquisitely. HOWEVER, what is NOT so easy is to find the NON-NEOCN advisors with whom Obama could strategize. Who are they? Do they even exist? Does he have contacts into foreign nations which get around the neocon pathways? I can't imagine whose Obama's non-neocon advisors would be, but he would really need some if he is carving out a quiet revolution.

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Monday, December 7, 2015 9:08 PM

JAYNEZTOWN


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
If only people were that smart.

Maybe the Iran deal went through with fingers crossed - in the hopes that something in that direction may have been fostered at some future time. I don't see it falling like dominoes. It's more a small shift of the balance of power.




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.


The simple solution would be to attack the religion rather than drop bombs on these islamic peoples, make a mockery of Islam and support muslims who make a joke of the faith.....at its core it has very shakey foundations, which is why they see Rushdie as a bigger threat than a US Cruise Missile
The Saudis are often at the top of fundamentalism, the whole region and culture built on lies and fakery, a magician kisses a fundamentalist frog and all of a sudden you have a magic kingdom but with a secret horror and jihad underneath? Saudi Arabia has been warned over Islamist funding by German Vice-Chancellor Sigmar Gabriel. The are afraid of examination of the Koran or Quran and recently arrested an Indian for 'Liking' Facebook Photo Showing Mecca Shrine as Hindu Lingam Shiv Temple, there was also the writings made famous by Rushdie's fictional book, showing pagan Satanic offense that reveal a fact that their god Allah it might built on a Pre-Muslim Arabian “Moon God”. The madness spreads to other nations with Sudan arresting 55 Christians to appease Islam, International Christian Concern’s Africa analyst William Stark said Bashir’s connections to Saudi Arabia and Iran only strengthen his hold on power.

http://news.yahoo.com/german-vice-chancellor-warns-saudi-arabia-over-i
slamist-135521960.html


http://www.islam-watch.org/home/143-roddy/840-allah-was-originally-a-p
re-muslim-arabian-moon-god.html


http://www.faithfreedom.org/there-is-a-frog-inside-every-muslim-prince
-charming
/

http://www.ibtimes.co.in/saudi-arabia-indian-arrested-liking-photo-tha
t-showed-mecca-mosque-hindu-temple-625278


http://www.wnd.com/2013/02/christians-arrested-to-appease-islam/

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/saudi-arabia-warned-over-islamist-funding-
by-german-vicechancellor-sigmar-gabriel-20151206-k










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Monday, December 7, 2015 9:19 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


... at its core EVERY religion has very shakey foundations ...




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Wednesday, December 9, 2015 3:34 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


Have you ever tried working for the State Department? The world would be in much better shape with you there.


SGG

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Friday, December 11, 2015 3:46 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Do you know the AHA! feeling when you think you discovered something? Well, I think I figured out what all of the apparent waffling is about. YAY!

The person who gave me my idea was none other than Obama himself. During his speech on terrorism, amidst all the blah-blah-blah he said one thing that struck me as being both true(ish) and important:

Quote:

We should not be drawn once more into a long and costly ground war in Iraq or Syria. That’s what groups like ISIL want.

That explains Obama's stance, because there is America: Standing like a picador behind its "allies", prodding them into burden-sharing the so-called "war on ISIL" (more about that later) but refusing to put boots on the ground itself. It's a perfectly understandable explanation for Obama's basic approach, but doesn't explain WHAT he doing, just how.

I don't expect that anyone will credit this explanation, but I'm going to take a whack at it because I think it ties a lot of pieces together.

First of all, it's clear to me that the USA has no intention of defeating ISIL. They have failed to attack so many targets .... like 1500+ oil truck convoys and lines of jeeps, bunkers and command centers ... and attacked so many NON-ISIL targets like MSF hospitals and Syrian Army units ... that its clear to me that the USA and its "partners' activity in Iraq and eastern Syria are mere optics, if not outright air cover for ISIL. The desultory pecking away at scattered individuals and small targets clearly shows that the USA and "partners" are committed to doing nothing effective.

Indeed, Obama himself said he was committed to "containing" ISIL, not defeating it. That's because he is still hoping that ISIL will bring down Assad, when al Nusra (al Qaida in Iraq) failed.

So, setting aside "defeating terrorism" as any sort of goal, what IS our military (and partners' militaries) doing in Iraq and eastern Syria?

As it turns out, its trying to engage Russia in a war of attrition ... to get Russia ensnared in a budget-busting, soul-destroying war like Vietnam or Afghanistan.

The USA has tried this several times already. The first was in Syria, when Obama drew a red line about chemical weapons, and Turkey and its jihadist allies set off a Sarin gas attack and quickly blamed Assad. The USA was all ready to bomb Syria, until Russia set its destroyers (with some very effective anti-ship and anti-misille missiles) athwart the Syrian coast, and shot a couple of USA cruise missiles out of the sky. The USA aircraft carriers withdrew from the eastern end of the Mediterranean, and the military had to go back and recalculate the cost of getting Russia involved in Syria. Russia derailed that particular provocation by providing Sarin residues to MI6 labs which determined that the Sarin was not manufactured by Assad's military, and Russia also convinced Assad to get rid of his chemical weapons. During this time, the USA is operating a rat-line of weapons from Libya to Syria.

The next attempt was in Ukraine. If you recall, I posted more than once I thought that the Ukraine event was triggered by Syria. I originally thought that's because the Russian ships steaming in to Syria from Sevastopol put Crimea on the front burner, but perhaps Ukraine was just an already-primed alternate. Russia COULD have been ensnared in Ukraine. Instead, what Russia did was take Crimea, because of its military significance (the Russian military port of Sevastopol) but refused to openly help Novorossians. Instead, it continued to push for a unified Ukraine (less Crimea) ... no matter how egregiously Kiev bombed civilians and broke the ceasefires ... although it took a LOT of internal flak, since many ethnic Russians live in the Donbas and there are many family ties to the people there. There is still a wrestling match going on between who is going to be responsible for Kiev's debts, including debts owed to Russia for natgas. The IMF has clearly come in on the side of the west, breaking its own rules to extend help to the Ukraine despite its refusal to pay on its sovereign debt.

The third (recalculated) attempt was back in Syria. By now, Saudi Arabia and Qatar, via Turkey, had saturated the area with jihadist fighters and weapons, and once again set up rat-lines for oil, weapons, antiquities, opium, and (some say) human transplant organs to fund the terrorists. But cleverly, the USA realized that Russia wouldn't get involved unless it could partner with Iran, so the USA sets the stage by signing an agreement with Iran which brings it out of the international shadows, and allows it to work openly with Russia. Russia intervenes militarily, and the USA hopes to make this a very expensive intervention, because the NEXT attempt is in Iraq...

The USA is now bringing in its "partners" into Iraq without Iraq's invitation or approval, including Turkey sending in a tank regiment into northern Iraq. Various American politicians have floated the idea of bringing in 100,000 troops in Iraq- 10,000 Americans and the remainder Saudis and Qataris - without the approval of Iraq, of course.

An "invasion" if there ever was one!

These troops are supposed to to "solve" the ISIS problem! REALLY??? Did they create the problem in the first place???

Well, this is clearly bluff and bluster, but I believe the USA is angling to get thrown out of Iraq in favor of Russia. Instead of attempting to hold the territory safe for ISIL, the USA and its middle eastern "partners" (Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Qatar) can make Iraq RUSSIA'S problem, and take potshots from the side, making a large, expensive operation for Russia and Iran.

The reason for the USA taking THIS approach (attrition) is that America had its own soul-destroying, budget-busting war in Iraq. We simply don't have the money or the troops to engage in another all-out war. The reason WHY NOW is something that I don't understand, but the USA has twisted its partners' arms in the EU, ruining export trade to Russia, blocking natural gas pipelines, devaluing the Euro and requiring Europe to accommodate the "refugee crisis" that USA's Middle-East-destroying policy engendered. This is causing rifts in internal politics, as pro-EU Atlantacist satraps like Merkel and Hollande become steadily more unpopular with both the population and their own businesses. But the USA's "all in" approach smacks of desperation.

It's not just a matter of weapons and troop movements, either, as there is active financial/economic warfare going on - currency wars, commodity wars, sanctions, trade wars, banking wars - not just against Russia (sanctions, currency runs) but also against its BRICS partners. But that's a story for another post.

However, it's a world-wide phenomenon. Battle lines are being drawn everywhere, there are hardly any neutral spaces in this developing war.

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Tuesday, December 15, 2015 12:26 PM

JAYNEZTOWN



Irony alert: Saudis announce formation of 'anti-terrorism' coalition
A nation ruled by an extremist Islamic sect known as the Wahhabis announced that it has formed a grand coalition of mostly Muslim countries to fight terrorism. Saudi Arabia and 33 other nations will coordinate their efforts to end terrorism – they say.

Presumably, the government of Saudi Arabia and the coalition won't fight any of the Islamist militias the Saudis are currently supporting in Syria. And Pakistan, a member of the coalition, will somehow forget that it is supporting the Taliban in Afghanistan.


http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2015/12/irony_alert_saudis_announc
e_formation_of_antiterrorism_coalition.html


Unlimited Muslim immigration: A Congress of fools or traitors?

http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/publications/detail/unlimited-mus
lim-immigration-a-congress-of-fools-or-traitors?f=must_reads


http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&
;pid=7444133

Atheist author Richard Dawkins has claimed that people on the political left are ignoring Islam's "misogyny and homophobia," and defended GOP presidential candidate Donald Trump's free speech rights.


Counterterrorism operations targeting harmless groups to maintain political correctness?
http://hotair.com/archives/2015/12/15/counterterrorism-operations-targ
eting-harmless-groups-to-maintain-political-correctness
/



the Regressive Left - excerpt from Sam Harris' podcast



sad times when you need to go super offensive Atheists and to Alex Jones tinfoil heads for information

Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
... at its core EVERY religion has very shakey foundations ...




Most religions across the CIVILISED world are kind of open-minded, somehow on some level tolerant, maybe even benign....In South Korea you can say how Buddhism sucks, In Canada and Australia you can say how Roman Catholic books are BS, if you want in Australia and Canada and other western nations you can say how Protestant, Calvinist, Quaker, Pentecostalists, Swedenborgianists, Snake Handlers, Scientologist and Mormons are all idiots, you can make offensive 'art' like piss christ, you can tear apart religion in Preacher and Daredevil comicbooks and open up the religion debate in comedy like life of brian, movies like The Book of Mormon
Dogma etc.
Moreover, the reason Monty Python and The Book of Mormon and Piss Christ don’t “incite violence” is due to the fact that no one in the Mormon and Christian religion behead blasphemers, that is an Islam problem, not a free speech problem, not an all have shakey foundation problem, not a Pamella Geller Problem its an Islam problem.
Their values are sometimes different to ours as across much of the civilized world people can have open and free discourse, they can debate and discuss but you can not do this against Islam, there is punishment for being critical of the Koran, once born into Islam you can not leave it, you can not drop the Quran and become atheist, protestant, shinto...whatever, the punishemnt for leaving the Muslim faith across the Islamic world is often imprisonment, stoning, beheadings and death....they also issue 'Fatwa' that is some islamoheadedterroristic Islamic scholar throws a hissy fit when someone offends their books, or writes something bad of Nation of Islam or draws a South Park Cartoon and all of a sudden on of their priests makes law that any one of their religious thugs can collect a lot of money by killing a critic of islam, he won't even go to jail for this murder, instead he will be rewarded with money for defending what this culture produced as this backward barabaric islamic faith.


Rushdie says it better


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Tuesday, December 15, 2015 1:17 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"Most religions across the CIVILISED world are kind of open-minded ..."

You think Buddhists are religiously tolerant pacifists? "Buddhist Mob Beats 10 Muslims To Death In Myanmar; Communal Violence Spreads". Another year, another example out of many. "'No water for him. Let him die': Horrifying moment Burmese Buddhists set fire to Muslim man in riots which left 43 dead"

And Christian religions in the civilized world were (and are) used to justify barbarities like slavery and lynchings. And if you go to the right places in the US and look white enough you'll hear that talk to this day. And the Bible - as I've repeatedly pointed out, and which you've repeatedly failed to address - IN ITS TEACHINGS says that people need to be stoned, or have their heads or hands cut off for various infractions, among other barbaric punishments.

To keep on with the Christian theme, why don't you look up The Army of God, a group of religious extremists who shoot and bomb and assassinate people in the name of god?

Do you think ALL 2.4 billion Christians should be condemned because of the actions of a minority? After all, that minority calls themselves Christian and THEY CAN POINT TO THE BIBLE for their justification. So there must be something wrong with the religion itself, don't you think? EVEN WORSE the entire Christendom has failed to rise up and condemn these murderers, and terrorists and their supporters. So we must ALL agree with what they're doing. Don't you agree?



Rather than continue to spew your incessant hatred, how about you respond to my post?




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Tuesday, December 15, 2015 1:38 PM

JAYNEZTOWN


Read your Quran and Islamo books again, Al-Taqiyya and Kitman
Bukhari (52:269) - "The Prophet said, 'War is deceit.'"
Qur'an (3:54) - "And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers."

its all being shown as ex-muslims start to speak out
and the islamo radicals get shown up as fools








Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
"Buddhist Mob Beats 10 Muslims To Death In Myanmar; Communal Violence Spreads".



Pally-Wood

A number of different terms to consider pallywood, the term sunni islamo propaganda, the term Hezbollywood, or presstv propaganda all going by different names but with very similar goals

get a plane ticket to Burma
and see for yourself
before parroting Western Qatar/Dubai owned mainstream media
you know how the Saudi owns a good chunk of CNN, it owns even the guys at Fox.... Alwaleed al-bin-lad Talal or some prince asshole


no doubt a few monks may have killed some islamists, but what you are getting in your news feed is 'Pally-Wood'

https://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/2015/06/07/muslim-rohingya-propag
anda-the-fake-pictures-of-the-rohingya-crisis/comment-page-1
/

http://www.jamaicans.com/forums/showthread.php?197253-The-fake-picture
s-of-the-Rohingya-crisis


https://twitter.com/bbctrending/status/607767011754532865

http://themuslimissue.tumblr.com/post/120967373921/muslim-rohingya-pro
paganda-the-fake-pictures-of


https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=397069947143907&
id=127735030744068


http://pamelageller.com/2015/06/fake-rohingya-persecution-pictures-pro
liferate-on-web.html
/

https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/38x1eb/the_fake_pictures_of_the
_rohingya_crisis
/

and I'm no fan of the Israel government either, they are assholes and have killed innocents
but why do people suddenly feel the urge to believe one side or the other, why do they need to support one team or the 2nd team? Is it red vs blue programming? and could it be possible on both sides of the conflict there are liars, murderers, thieves and killers? Why believe one side over another?
'pallywood' and the lies and deception from both sides incase you missed the story
http://www.honestreporting.ca/cbcs-oscar-worthy-pallywood-performance/
6744

http://truthreturns.com/pallywood-101/
http://www.geenstijl.nl/mt/archieven/2014/12/hamas_en_eu_lalala.html
http://theinglouriousbasterds.com/incroyable-les-palestiniens-detourne
nt-un-film-dhorreur-americain-pour-pallywood
/
http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2014/07/sinister-deception-television-media-
pallywood
/


Myanmar Buddhist mob stories turned out to be fake, Bruma monks attacks muslim was a false story, it was one fake story after another and another false story and another fake story

BBC had to keep retracting the false stories
and btw we class Burma as a commie dictatorship....you seeing the pattern yet?


let me speed things up if you still can't connect the dots
who do you think posted this one?
Quote:

The USA has been tacitly or actively supporting jihadism for decades. It can be traced back as far as Jimmy Carter, who supplied various Afghani-based terror groups - including the Saudi Osama bin Laden- with shoulder-fired Stinger missiles to drive out the Russians.

I used to think that the USA support for terrorists was sporadic and opportunistic ... Afghanistan, Chechnya, Libya .... but over the last couple of years, as I've educated myself, I see now that our support has been there all along ... that we have "given up" large swaths of the Middle East (Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya and the planned addition of Syria) to Saudi-Wahhabi terrorism, that these were not repeated military/ foreign policy "failures" or "mistakes" on our part, but part of our payment to Saudi Arabia for maintaining our petrodollar-Treasury deal.

...
...

The Saudis HAVE however fanned the flames of jihadism hot enough that they now have hundreds of thousands of religiously-indoctrinated tools who are willing to enforce their masters' interests by proxy.




and McCain the old senile RINO Dinosaur is still part of this old USA vs Russia proxy war



as stupid as French can be they do have a sound policy on energy, today we see a blockade on Russia, sanction of trade against Russians but if we saw a return of oil fields going up in smoke like Saddams invasion or if the USA seen a return of OPEC's 1970's Oil Embargo...how would the nations do today? Would their economies survive well?? As Japan faced back in those days its production slumped, Japanese political elites told their population 'belt-tighting' the "Nixon Shock" hits as US President announces that the dollar is no longer convertible into gold and imposes a 10% surcharge on all imports into the U.S and the Crisis would bring people like Thatcher to power. You would think America would learn from this? Yet these days we still see so many cars parked at shopping centers and grocery stores with the engine idling. France today is invested in alternative energies, wind, solar, and a lot of nuclear reactors supplying energy....so is the 1973 Oil Embargo is still relevant, was it a mistake to remove the USA from the gold standard and create a Saudi connected fiat currency?

There are 3 major lies in this world destroying America, 3 super falsehoods unless fixed that might bring America to its knees
1. the wars LIE, the Iraq LIE in the Middle East, constant oil wars that may bankrupt America
2. the God lie - the false Arabic Moon God called Allah....perhaps seperate to the judaism and christian god but also connected to Hindu Phallic God, Babylonian and pre islamic Pagan faith as Rushdie exposed....these mindless islamo zombies have been used to do biddings of horrific princes and elites
3. the banker lie, the guys Jesus kicked out of the Temple...they are still around you know? the faces changed but criminals are still there and under different names. The banks are heavily involved in drug trafficking, child abuse, murder...yep that sounds crazy but ask yourself how does the money flow? How is it possible on ISIS slave market got people on the inside and help cash flow from the City of London into Turkey? You know that the USA doesn't own the Fed? You know that the Fed is a private bank with big ugly names like Rockefellers, Qatar princes, the Royal banks of Europe, Jew royalty, Dynastic famalies, old British, Saudi princes and old money Germans and Warburgs and others who control the guns, commodities markets, politicians and governments, media papers, feed intelligence agencies, drugs and organized crime, drug cartel, money-laundering, the trade of cocaine, and opium almost like a comic scifi show its tentacles all over the world just like the Cap America movie or James Bond movie....a system too big to fail
the wars lie
the god lie
the banker lie

all propaganda and all helping destroy America


much of the hard drugs in US streets originate from Afghanistan?


Supporting Saudi's ???

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Tuesday, December 15, 2015 10:06 PM

JAYNEZTOWN



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Saturday, December 19, 2015 1:31 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


You know that things aren't going well when nominally-allied partners start quibbling with each other. Up until recently, we've had a concordance of interests, more or less, with the Saudis, and the Saudis with the Qataris and al Qaida and al Nusra (and nominally with ISIL), and the Qataris with the Turks, and the Turks and Qataris with ISIL. Just one big happy family, heading - more or less- in the same direction:

Depose Assad
Break the nascent Shia crescent
Establish a Sunni caliphate (That's for Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and Turkey to quibble over.)
Establish oil and gas pipelines across Syria to the Mediterranean and the EU
Break the EU's dependence on Russia oil and gas.

All was going swimmingly until Russia intervened, and lately it's been fun watching the cockroaches scatter and seeing where they go hide and who they hide with.

Turkey, having been publicly exposed as THE conduit for aid to ISIL, is now internationally naked: neither the USA nor the EU want to touch it, and it's antagonized Russia beyond immediate repair. What to do???? Well, they've made deal with Israel, where Israel agrees to pay reparations for killing Turkish citizens who were in the pro-Gaza flotilla. Scrounging for loose change, I think. Turkey also announced plans to establish a 3000-strong military base in Qatar to face "common enemies". http://www.reuters.com/article/us-qatar-turkey-military-idUSKBN0TZ17V2
0151216
What those "common enemies" are is open to question, but both Turkey and Qatar are strong supporters of the "Muslim Brotherhood" and ISIL, so I supposed those "common enemies" would be anyone who is fighting ISIL ... i.e. Russia, Iran, Iraq (parts of) and Syria.

Saudi Arabia announced they would gather together a 100,000-strong army ... made of of military units ONLY from Sunni states and including 10,000 American troops ... to "fight ISIL". ISIL was not quite a Saudi project, they were more invested in al Qaida, but they weren't really against it either. To now try and pretend that they're going to "fight ISIL" is ridiculous; "fighting ISIL" is now the most naked of fig-leaves for pure land-grabs. And some of the nations that Saudi Arabia listed as partners, such as Pakistan, Malaysia, and Indonesia, reacted with a Wait... wha...? because the press release was the first they heard of it, and so they refused to be included.

Jordan is still the CIA's favorite conduit for money to ISIL and al Qaida.

The USA is now conceding .... in the face over overwhelming evidence that they would get their military's ass handed to them should they tangle with Russia ... that maybe peace in Syria isn't such a bad idea after all. However, this doesn't represent a change of heart or intent ... the USA bombed Iraqi troops "by mistake" ... I swear to god the USA really DOES want to get kicked out of Iraq, so they can make trouble from Qatar!

When big partnerships start breaking up, it's easier to tease apart who is really allied with whom and on what grounds, because that's when you start to see a divergence of interests. This should be instructive.


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Saturday, December 19, 2015 2:21 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Hey, c'mon guys!

Speculatin' is important. I feel like I'm being forced to do all the speculatin' myself!

Feel free to join in. It's just speculation, after all!


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Sunday, December 20, 2015 12:12 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


GSTRING- are you drinking and posting again?

Quote:

*snort* an amusing statement after Turkey swats one [of]your planes
One of MY planes??? I guess you must really like ISIL.
Quote:

out of the sky like a buzzing fly. I'm guessing Russian planes aren't going to fly that route again any time soon.Turkey 1, Russia 0
Not only are Russian planes flying the same zone, there are no "rebels" left alive down there to shoot at pilots as they drift down on parachutes. Turks now no longer even violate Greek airspace (which they did with impunity before) let alone Syrian airspace. And now, even the USA and it's other "coalition partners" refuse to fly over Syria. Why do you suppose that is?

Quote:

BTW, since you obviously weren't paying attention to Syria until your masters notified you to change the focus away from Ukraine... Peace in Syria has always been the idea.
I was paying attention to Syria WHEN Ukraine came up. I've been paying attention to it all along. I said, at the time, that I thought Ukraine was triggered by Syria.

Syria involves our partnerships with Saudi Arabia and the rest of the GCC and Turkey, which also involves pipelinistan, oil and the petrodollar as well as worldwide jihadism. All pretty weighty topics. BTW, I also pay attention to China, the EU, Brazil, Venezuela etc. I'm sorry that your scope of interest isn't wide enough to encompass important and relevant topics, and that you're stuck on Ukraine.

But not to worry, I'm sure Ukraine will come up as a relevant topic soon enough, and then your tiny mind will have something familiar to latch on to.

And now, since you're once again engaging in your incessant narcissism and I'm just enabling it, I'm going to stop responding to you.

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Sunday, December 20, 2015 10:22 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Jane

First, your post basically says MY RELIGION IS BETTER THAN THEIRS ... because ... theirs is stupid and mine isn't. I reject that argument in its entirety. And it is one of the stupidest, most circular arguments I've ever come across.

Second, NONE of the incidents I described were either retracted or disproved by your post. If you want to dispute MY arguments you actually have to address THEM, not some other point someone else made, somewhere else. BTW the photo of the self-immolating man is here: http:// i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/04/25/article-2314598-125686A5000005DC-265_634x362.jpg, and it doesn't even remotely resemble the photo in the article I quoted. Swing and a miss.

And you've completely failed to address the barbarities committed by Christians in the past AND PRESENT, which they justify in the name of the bible.

Before regurgitating your hatreds YET AGAIN, try reading ... and thinking.




"Most religions across the CIVILISED world are kind of open-minded ..."

You think Buddhists are religiously tolerant pacifists? "Buddhist Mob Beats 10 Muslims To Death In Myanmar; Communal Violence Spreads". Another year, another example out of many. "'No water for him. Let him die': Horrifying moment Burmese Buddhists set fire to Muslim man in riots which left 43 dead"

And Christian religions in the civilized world were (and are) used to justify barbarities like slavery and lynchings. And if you go to the right places in the US and look white enough you'll hear that talk to this day. And the Bible - as I've repeatedly pointed out, and which you've repeatedly failed to address - IN ITS TEACHINGS says that people need to be stoned, or have their heads or hands cut off for various infractions, among other barbaric punishments.

To keep on with the Christian theme, why don't you look up The Army of God, a group of religious extremists who shoot and bomb and assassinate people in the name of god?

Do you think ALL 2.4 billion Christians should be condemned because of the actions of a minority? After all, that minority calls themselves Christian and THEY CAN POINT TO THE BIBLE for their justification. So there must be something wrong with the religion itself, don't you think? EVEN WORSE the entire Christendom has failed to rise up and condemn these murderers, and terrorists and their supporters. So we must ALL agree with what they're doing. Don't you agree?



Rather than continue to spew your incessant hatred, how about you respond to my post?





SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Monday, December 21, 2015 1:51 AM

JAYNEZTOWN


Not sure of the exact numbers but some researchers and guys went out and surveys and polls were done

numbers go something like this -

84% of Muslims in the Middle East support the death penalty for leaving Islam
41% of Pakistanis approve of attacks on Americans
Recent surveys show that most people in several countries with significant Muslim populations have an unfavorable view of ISIS, including virtually all respondents in Lebanon and 94% in Jordan. Relatively small shares say they see ISIS favorably. In some countries, considerable portions of the population do not offer an opinion about ISIS, including a majority (62%) of Pakistanis.
70% Want Sharia Law Above all other Laws
Muslim Views on Suicide Bombing and Gunmen killing Random Infidels
40% have sympathy for bombers
36% of Arabs polled said the 9/11 attacks were morally justified; 38% disagreed; 26% Unsure
30% support ISIS
15% of Muslims in Turkey support suicide bombings (also 11% in Kosovo, 26% in Malaysia and 26% in Bangladesh)


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:

You think Buddhists are religiously tolerant pacifists? "Buddhist Mob Beats 10 Muslims To Death In Myanmar;



You are a mentally ill Islamophile

and you are posting Pally-Wood propaganda

the Bible and the Christian Bible faith is BS, I have posted PLENTY of times against dumbass Christians...if you want to go bashing bible belt Christians then COOL! I'm all for you bashing those dumb bible nuts, I suggest you give one of those old firefly threads a bump instead of hijacking this thread with your apologizing for Muslim-Supremists, Chistian-bashing and your Islamophillic agenda

it seems you missed my above post


it's PALLY-WOOD
Quote:

Originally posted by JAYNEZTOWN:

get a plane ticket to Burma
and see for yourself
before parroting Western Qatar/Dubai owned mainstream media
you know how the Saudi owns a good chunk of CNN, it owns even the guys at Fox.... Alwaleed al-bin-lad Talal or some prince asshole


no doubt a few monks may have killed some islamists, but what you are getting in your news feed is 'Pally-Wood'

https://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/2015/06/07/muslim-rohingya-propag
anda-the-fake-pictures-of-the-rohingya-crisis/comment-page-1
/

http://www.jamaicans.com/forums/showthread.php?197253-The-fake-picture
s-of-the-Rohingya-crisis


https://twitter.com/bbctrending/status/607767011754532865

http://themuslimissue.tumblr.com/post/120967373921/muslim-rohingya-pro
paganda-the-fake-pictures-of


https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=397069947143907&
id=127735030744068


http://pamelageller.com/2015/06/fake-rohingya-persecution-pictures-pro
liferate-on-web.html
/

https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/38x1eb/the_fake_pictures_of_the
_rohingya_crisis/



fakery


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Jane

First, your post basically says MY RELIGION IS BETTER THAN THEIRS ...



I have no religious book youdumbfuck get with the program I'm here since 2004 you should know me by now, I don't promote any religious stupidity or support any large organized religion or any religious indoctrination

if you happen to go wandering in the sand hungry, walking across the sun and cloud for days, and eat something weird and start speaking to a 'God' or your Gods then cool, please keep it to yourself. People practicing their own faith fine, but hugeass Mosques and rich Buddhist Temples and Preachers that's a game of theft, brianwashing and BS

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Monday, December 21, 2015 7:30 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I don't know much about Buddhism or Hinduism, and only a little about Islam and only a little more about Xtianity. What I DO know about the last two religions is that BOTH of their holy books talk about vengeance and punishment .... and forgiveness and tolerance. There's justification for both. People on their own tend to want to go with the "softer" aspects of their religions, the parts about holidays and so forth; it's the power structures which provoke mayhem through constant propagandizing and fear-mongering and (sometimes) weaponizing. Follow the money. If you cut off the money you'll go a long way to reducing the problem.

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Monday, December 21, 2015 7:48 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


One of the events which cause the USA to fold .... and it DID fold, at least formally ... was something that happened just a few weeks ago. I think I've mentioned that my husband has extensive familiarity with weapons of all types. Hell, he has a nearly-photographic memory for all things manmade .... he can tell me by outline what model and year car he's looking at, chip numbers, gear ratios, bore and stroke numbers, and the make and model of nearly every American and Russian weapon system that he's ever looked at.

Frankly, it makes my eyes roll.

So I kind of "yeah ... uh huh... yeah...whatever.." my way thru the discussion of Russia's long-range bomber hitting Syria until about two weeks later, when I actually READ what happened, and it definitely made me sit up an take notice.

Not only did Russia hit Syrian targets with their usual ground-support jets and helicopter gunships, and (previously) long-range cruise missiles from the Caspian Sea, they ALSO sent their long-range bomber all the way around Europe and down the Mediterranean (because the EU and Turkey had denied airspace to ISIL-fighting Russian aircraft), and launched missiles from submarines and ships. I was shocked they would go thru all of the trouble to do something that was militarily so unnecessary.

At first, I thought it was a field-test, but soon figured out it was a demonstration for the Pentagon. Shortly afterwards, Kerry went to Moscow, and soon after that, the UN Security Council with USA approval, voted for Syrian elections. (Something that Russia has been trying to promote since 2012.)

Weapons bore me to tears. I can't tell the difference between an F-16 and an SU-24, or between a corvette or a destroyer. But when military powers are eying each other across a line of hostility, relative weaponry sure makes a difference.




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Monday, December 21, 2015 8:28 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

So why has Human Rights Watch (HRW)—despite proclaiming itself “one of the world’s leading independent organizations” on human rights—so consistently paralleled U.S. positions and policies? This affinity for the U.S. government agenda is not limited to Latin America. In the summer of 2013, for example, when the prospect of a unilateral U.S. missile strike on Syria—a clear violation of the UN Charter—loomed large, HRW’s executive director Kenneth Roth speculated as to whether a simply “symbolic” bombing would be sufficient. “If Obama decides to strike Syria, will he settle for symbolism or do something that will help protect civilians?” he asked on Twitter. Executive director of MIT’s Center for International Studies John Tirman swiftly denounced the tweet as “possibly the most ignorant and irresponsible statement ever by a major human-rights advocate.”

https://nacla.org/article/hypocrisy-human-rights-watch



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Monday, December 21, 2015 11:53 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"I have no religious book youdumbfuck"

You posted multiple videos of people saying MY RELIGION IS BETTER THAN THEIR RELIGION which I wasted enough time watching. If you didn't mean them as an argument against Islam, you shouldn't have posted any of them.

Don't you agree?

Also, links for your supposed surveys, otherwise - they're just so much blah blah blah. "and you are posting Pally-Wood propaganda" which you've failed to disprove - twice. Because YOUR posts failed to address MY SPECIFIC posts. Again. Want to go for three?



You made this claim:

"Most religions across the CIVILISED world are kind of open-minded ..."

And I provided multiple examples of multiple religions used to justify extreme violence. Even your so-called CIVILIZED religions aren't. Because IN THEIR TEACHINGS are incitements to violence either as punishment against their members or as reasons to war on others. The reason MOST of us don't do that isn't because our religions are so superior, it's because we ignore those many, many teachings.

So why pick on Islam?

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Monday, December 21, 2015 1:42 PM

JAYNEZTOWN


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Even your so-called CIVILIZED religions aren't.



CIVILIZED WORLD - don't misquote me
IF right now we were living in 1975 I might argue Cambodian terror monks, Camboadian terror communists and Pol Pots Theravada Buddhists were the greatest threat to humanity
IF we now were on a ship landing in Pre-Columbian Mesoamerican, our ships arriving from Spain and France into ancient lands of Mexico, Texas, Venezuela...and other Pre Colombian shores I might argue that Aztec religion with its culture of Child sacrifice and Human Sacrifice was the greatest crime on humanity
IF we were living in 1940 I might argue the German Occult, Germany's Nazi Social Fascists and German Christianity was the greatest threat to civilisation.


and although I have lived in the Western world and respect the West's democracy, scientific progress. I respect the West its humanity, its culture still I don't promote Christianity, I think the Roman Catholic churches, the Protestant faith, the Mormonism, Jehovah's all other these faiths all have corruption and none will fully recover from their corruption and scandals. Catholicism and Protestantism have killed each other across Europe, many years back they were killing each other by the thousands and thousands on the streets of Europe, they burned 'Witches', both faiths have abused children, taken abused girls and raped young boys, while British and Canadians and French and Australians and Americans and all allies fought Fascist German's the Catholic Church of Rome was to cowardly to stand up to Nazi German's and instead sided with the Nazis...the rape of boys, supporting the Third Reich this is something from which the Catholic church will never recover.


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:


You posted multiple videos of people saying MY RELIGION IS BETTER THAN THEIR RELIGION which I wasted enough time watching. If you didn't mean them as an argument against Islam, you shouldn't have posted any of them.




Let me post them again, once more I will post these videos
because it seems the videos didn't sink into your thick skull first time 'round

What 'religion' do you think these vids are promoting?
Is it Shinto religion? is it Wicca Witchcraft? Is it Baha'i or Sikhism?
tell me the religion these vids promote?









tell me what is their religion?

and although I use terms 'thick skull' I don't believe you are stupid. I know what I write is a shocker for some it breaks your reality and is quiet shocking to you
Around your skull there is a web of massmedia, radiowaves and tv...you have been programed to respond in certain ways to certain events, once you realize tv today is slightly more advanced, slightly more humane than tv Japan watched in 1940 or a little more advanced than tv and radio which German's watch in 1940s you will be able to break out of this Matrix like Neo or Keanu Reeves did in the movie....and yes Americans are programed by tv just like they were programed to believe Iraq had WMDs and brainwashed by tv to believe Iraq was connected to 911

People respond to me always thinking I am some bible belt gun nut Christian from the South...what if I told you I am not even American, if I said I wasn't a native English speaker, not even Christian...what if I told you I wasn't even 'white'....would you still continue your programmed narrative?

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Monday, December 21, 2015 7:28 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


There are many you failed to post again.


"Islam Ex Muslim Allah is a Gangster watch this you will leave Islam"
I'm a former Muslim Christian convert and my religion is better than theirs.



"Taqiyya and Jihad - - lying to non-believers"
"Muslim scholars teach that Muslims should generally be truthful to each other, unless the purpose of lying is to "smooth over differences.""
Yes, this post attributes to ISLAM the rantings of a few.



Watch this


then watch this




Romans 1:18 ESV
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
Isaiah 26:21
For behold, the Lord is coming out from his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity, and the earth will disclose the blood shed on it, and will no more cover its slain.
Ezekiel 25:17
I will execute great vengeance on them with wrathful rebukes. Then they will know that I am the Lord, when I lay my vengeance upon them.”
Nahum 1:2-6
The Lord is a jealous and avenging God; the Lord is avenging and wrathful; the Lord takes vengeance on his adversaries and keeps wrath for his enemies. The Lord is slow to anger and great in power, and the Lord will by no means clear the guilty. His way is in whirlwind and storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet. He rebukes the sea and makes it dry; he dries up all the rivers; Bashan and Carmel wither; the bloom of Lebanon withers. The mountains quake before him; the hills melt; the earth heaves before him, the world and all who dwell in it. Who can stand before his indignation? Who can endure the heat of his anger? His wrath is poured out like fire, and the rocks are broken into pieces by him.
Revelation 20:15
And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Then of course god deceives Abraham - “Take your son to the land of Moriah and kill your son there as a sacrifice for me. This must be Isaac, your only son, the one you love. Use him ..." But HEY! that's OK because - yanno - he's god.

And so on.

For every crackpot and extremist who seems to be interpreting the Quran to incite violence, I can find actual quotes from the Bible that are as bad, or worse.

And uh - you failed to notice that the extremist Army of God, the violent Buddhists, the genocidal Israelis are example from TODAY. MODERN TIMES. And yet, you seem focused on Islam as THE religion that needs to be wiped off the face of the earth.


You're crazy.





SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Monday, December 21, 2015 8:20 PM

JAYNEZTOWN


Ok my mistake, so you are a f-ckingidiot

AND YOU LOST

you fall flat on your face, you cry and throw a hissy fit and all you hit is smoke and I laugh at you like a Zen Master would laugh at a baby having a little temper tantrum


you tried, you lost and now you look like a crybabybitch


Walk away from this one cos you're not winning


I post something against Islamism and immediately you hijack this thread to bash Christians, I don't give a fuck if you bash them DO IT
IT AMUSES ME, I find it funny
but do it in another thread and don't hijack this one with your Pro-Islamic Anti-Christian BS

There are other firefly threads, plenty of them out there for bashing those dumbass redneck Christian bible readers

The only reason I happen to post vids that seem to be from the -Christianrightwing or rednecks Christains is because almost NO ATHEIST WILL BASH ISLAM...most of them are too chickenshits
In the left movement you can find thousands and thousands of people who attack those Christian bible nuts
Yet there are only about 20 or so Atheists or Apostates who do attack Islam, people like Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Maher...but that's it....you've got this thing called radical Islam which censors criticism, death threats to South Park cartoonists, bombings, beheadings, whenever you need film to make a point against islam sadly you need to vist the rightwinger newscaster because the leftwing are too chicken to call out islamism, unfortunately for the liberals the right is winning this war of minds because its the right and not the left who are calling it correct on radical islam...often times the left are to spineless to call out Islamists

People would normally be allowed criticize suicide bombers, people would normally criticize mohammed a rapist mass murdering pedophile as a terrible human and yet they believe this man muhammed to be a prophet of 'God', Muslims are still adamant to their false belief that Allah was not a pagan god, the people would normally be encouraged to examine Islam, examine Mecca as historians and writers like Rushdie did, open up the books and examine its Pagan Moon God Al-Lat and the Sabians, Nabonidus, Babylonian, Hindu and Persian roots which come from pre-Islamic Arabia
blame Islamophillia, Qatar and Saudi money, blame regressive leftism and your dumbass party and your dumbass tv brainwashing

and yes I have read the history and done the math, and I think it is correct to call radical Islam the greatest threat to humanity, since its birth it has been eating people the 6th Century CE or BC as you Americans call it, 7th century BC - ?8th century....Islam has spread itself through violence...how do you think it left Mecca and spread into Libya, how did it spread to Turkey? Spread into Iran?
Do you think as some crazy Liberals do that Islam spread itself through kisses and flowers
Is that how Islam historically spread? It spread through bunny rabbits, hugs and happy colors and happy rainbows? Is that how you think Muslims sent their religion into other lands, flowers and kisses?
It is estimated that muslims and radical Islam may have killed upwards of 200+ Million People, yes think about that number for a second plus TWO HUNDRED MIL PERSONS killed by radical muslims
and while its true there are times when other religions have been a greater danger to humanity but currently its islamism that's winning the race for violence and depravity

Regressive lefts are killing the Democrats turning them into Dumbocrats

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Monday, December 21, 2015 8:42 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"I post something against Islamism and immediately you hijack this thread to bash Christians ..."

Actually, I showed that there's extremism built into the bible, both the ot and the nt - with quotes! - and made the general case that every religion has its own brand of extremism built in. It's a fact. Sorry you can't deal with reality.

And I further made the points I've been making all along, that 1) the fact you (mostly) don't see Christians, Jews, Buddhists and others doing extreme things is because people ignore those inconvenient teachings (well, you do see Zionists doing a lot of extreme things - they're genocidal); and 2) you'll find people willing to take those extreme doctrines to the extreme in EVERY religion.

So - given that there's extremism built into every religion, and you'll find extremists willing to be extreme in every religion - why are you so focused on trying to wipe Islam specifically off the earth?





SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Monday, December 21, 2015 8:57 PM

JAYNEZTOWN


a quick lesson in the art of fighting without fighting not a video game Ryuko no Ken, yizhong yuyan yongyuan bugou

Did you ever wonder why the radical muslims hate and fear Salman Rushdie a 5' 7" and 130 lbs man, mere stature, soft manner, slightly balding, pudgy...why they fear him more than they fear 100 US Cruise missiles?


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Sorry you can't deal with reality.



You're the one not dealing with reality, I have been on this forum a long, long time, way back before 2005, 2004 way, way back when it was once an Andromeda tribute website, the tv show firefly a mere subforum
and I have been bashing radical Chistians, I have been critical of the bible nuts for a long long time...it is you who can't deal with reality



Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
trying to wipe Islam specifically off the earth?



Who says I want to kill any of them?
Maybe I don't want anyone dead, maybe I only want all the radical ones deported home to Mecca or whichever islamic hole they would enjoy to live?
Maybe I'm an old school Democrat? Connect with the people born in the FDR, MLK, de Gaulle, JFK eras? Maybe all I want is for political leaders to have a spine just as JFK spoke against communism?
Maybe I don't want a single cruise missile wasted on some idiot on a camel, maybe the wacky religion can be broke with South Park cartoons and Salman Rushdie books


Are you getting the picture yet?

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Monday, December 21, 2015 9:18 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"Maybe I don't want anyone dead"

Well, I didn't say MUSLIMS, which would be directed at people and would involve death --- I said ISLAM. Here: "And yet, you seem focused on ISLAM as THE religion that needs to be wiped off the face of the earth" and here: "why are you so focused on trying to wipe ISLAM specifically off the earth?" Do you understand the difference?

Your posts are anti-Islam.




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Monday, December 21, 2015 9:28 PM

JAYNEZTOWN


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Your posts are anti-Islam.




Take a second analyzing your own writing, your own person with the potential for individual thought, have time to do a little quick objective self criticism. Step outside your self for a moment and think about what you said here
....will reply later

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Monday, December 21, 2015 9:51 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


support muslims who make a joke of the faith.....at its core it has very shakey foundations
that is an Islam problem
not an all have shakey foundation problem ... its an Islam problem
this backward barabaric islamic faith

and much, much more.

So, why do you think Islam is so bad compared to the teachings of other religions and the actions of their most dedicated adherents?




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Wednesday, December 23, 2015 10:29 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


FINALLY! Someone is speculating.... well, even more than speculating ... about the deep-state politics behind our so-called policies in the Mideast (and elsewhere)

Seymour Hersh Bombshell: US Military Shared Intelligence With Assad In Defiance Of Obama, CIA

This is a very long article, which I've quoted extensively and linked. According to Hersch, there is a very deep division between the CIA and the formal military - so much so that our military provided intelligence to the German, Israeli, and Russian militaries, who were to pass that on the the Syrian military.

Hersch references both his previous articles and other events in support of his article, many of which I've tracked through regular world reportage. In addition, he obtained high-level interviews of participants and observers to stitch this all together into a narrative.

The parts that I've tracked thru the press ...

The "rat line" of supplies from Qatar and Saudi Arabia thru Turkey to the "freedom-loving" "Arab Spring" "pro-democracy" "rebels" in Libya, from too many sources to cite, some VERY specific, about the numbers of planeloads of arms and where they came from, clocked thru Turkish airports. There is NO irony too heavy-handed for the clusterfuck of deep-state actors pushing western-exceptionalist liberals into supporting jihadist terrorists under the banner of R2P, and creating a jihadist-laden, desperately broken, smoking ruin where once a secular and prosperous nation once stood. If R2Pers haven't learned anything from Libya (or Iraq), they are irremediably brainwashed and it's doubtful they will EVER learn anything outside of their own narrow ideology. (KPO, THUGR, G)

But I digress. The point is that these arms shipments were reported in the press, and CERTAINLY known to the major militaries and intelligence units within the western powers. After Libya fell, there was another "rat line" established through Bengahzi, trans-shipping arms from Libya, once again through Turkey, to Syria. Our "poor innocent" Ambassador to Libya, Christopher Stevens, was almost certainly directly involved, as his personal calendar places him at the CIA's operations center -
Quote:

On 11 September 2012 the US ambassador to Libya, Christopher Stevens, was killed during an anti-American demonstration that led to the burning down of the US consulate in Benghazi; reporters for the Washington Postfound copies of the ambassador’s schedule in the building’s ruins. It showed that on 10 September Stevens had met with the chief of the CIA’s annex operation. The next day, shortly before he died, he met a representative from Al-Marfa Shipping and Maritime Services, a Tripoli-based company which, the JCS adviser said, was known by the Joint Staff to be handling the weapons shipments.
. I've posted about many times about Turkey's, Saudi Arabia's, and Qatar's roles in the teaching, training, funding, and arming of jihadists MANY TIMES here.

The false-flag SARIN GAS ATTACK IN GHOUTA, helpfully arranged by Turkey, was also a topic of many posts HERE.

Even KPO acknowledged at one point the significant intervention by the CIA in Syria. In a discussion about WHAT "moderate rebels"?, with the revelation that only five had been officially trained, as I recall KPO referenced the "hundreds of thousands" of CIA secretly-trained "rebels" in Syria. It was a backwards acknowledgement that the CIA has broad operations there.

Turkey's shipments to jihadists in Syria are also well-known and fairly widely reported (at least, in world news), and I've certainly posted about THAT many times.

In addition, the whistleblower letter of protest, signed by about 50 Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) analysts, protesting the "whitewashing" of their reports on the deteriorating situation in Syria, as well as a 2011 DIA analysis of the potential growth of a independent jihadist state with continued USA-funding, has made it to the news and certainly to HERE.

Nobody can say they didn't know about these events. I know I've speculated here more than once about rogue CIA elements.

According to Hersch, General Dempsey was the person in charge of undercutting the CIA's support of jihadists in Syria. Obama is wedded to "Assad must go", wedded to the CIA (as is Hillary) and wedded to a strategy which is only fostering more and more terrorism, which will EVENTUALLY make its way back .... in a BIG way .... to the USA.

This calls for much more speculation.

1) Why is Obama wedded to "Assad must go"? and using CIA-supplied jihadists to do it? Clearly, this was NEVER INTENDED TO bring democracy to Syria, stabilize the mideast, or promote human rights. Anyone who still believes that crock of shit is a human fly. So, what's the point?

2) When did the White House decide that the military was no longer a suitable tool for its deep state objectives? When the military refused to bomb Syria in 2013? Or even earlier, after the invasion of Iraq? I suspect it was very early on, since Obama has shown a strong preference for secretive CIA-NSA activities, including DRONE operations (split between JSOC and the CIA http://www.cfr.org/drones/transferring-cia-drone-strikes-pentagon/p304
34
), massive surveillance (NSA), and CIA/State Dept training-weapons shipments, and CIA-NED-AID destabilization techniques everywhere.

3) Was this intelligence transfer to Syria thru Germany done without Merkel's knowledge? Merkel is a tool of the USA (just as is NATO). She, of course, has objectives of her own regarding gas deals (She's happy that both the South Stream and the Turkish Stream pipelines are derailed because that would leave HER pipeline - the North Stream-2 - as the only operating pipeline once the Ukraine pipelines are shut off in 2019.) In some cases, her interests overlap with the USA's. How "in the loop" is she with her own military?

4) What will happen now that General Dempsey is retired?

5) The deep-state seems to be insensitive to mideast stability, democracy, and PROTECTING THE USA FROM TERRORISM AT HOME. Everything they advocate drives in the opposite direction. In fact, I can see how a major terrorist attack at home would work entirely into their hands. So, could they be traitors? Could Obama? Could Hillary?

I've said more than once that I thought that deep fractures were taking place in the mideast. One of the fractures seems to be between the CIA and the military.

Without further ado ...

Quote:

Back in May, Seymour Hersh upended the “official” narrative surrounding the death of Osama bin Laden and in the process created a media firestorm prompting a response from the White House.

The explosive revelations about the events that ultimately led to bin Laden’s demise came a year-and-a-half after Hersh accused the Obama administration of not telling the whole story with regard to an infamous sarin gas attack that nearly served as an excuse for airstrikes against the Assad regime in 2013.

In the six months since Hersh’s bin Laden story made international headlines, the war in Syria has escalated meaningfully. Indeed, the country is now the theatre for what amounts to World War III with the US, France, Britain, Russia, Iran, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and Iraq all involved either directly or indirectly.

As we noted just three days ago, we're beginning to see the formation of three alliances in the Mid-East: 1) Russia, Iran, Syria, and Iraq; 2) Turkey, Saudi Arabia, and Qatar; 3) Britain, France, and Germany. Here’s how we described the situation:

The first alliance is pro-Assad, anti-terror. The second is anti-Assad, pro-Sunni extremist. The third is anti-Assad (although less vehemently so), anti-terror (conspiracy theories aside). Note that we've left the US out. Why? Because Washington is now stuck. The US wants desperately to maintain coordination with Ankara, Riyadh, and Doha, but between stepped up media coverage of Saudi Arabia's role in underwriting extremism (via the promotion of Wahhabism) and hightened scrutiny on Erdogan's role in financing terrorists, the position is becoming increasingly untenable. But aligning solely with the UK, France, and Germany entails adopting a more conciliatory approach to Assad - just ask Berlin which, as we reported on Friday, is now working with Assad's intelligence police and may soon establish a base in Damascus.

Well, if you believe Seymour Hersh’s latest expose, we were even more right than we knew because as it turns out, some elements within the US military began tacitly cooperating with Assad two years ago after becoming concerned with Turkey and Saudi Arabia's support for Sunni extremists.

In a new 6,600 word piece, Hersh details what he says was a covert plot by the Joint Chiefs of Staff to undercut the “Assad must go” line promoted and pursued by the Obama administration and the CIA on the way to sharing valuable intelligence with the Assad government. The report also verifies the role of Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and especially Turkey in arming and financing al-Nusra and ISIS.
Read the full report below.

* * *

Quote:

“Military to Military”
Seymour M. Hersh on US intelligence sharing in the Syrian war courtesy of the London Review of Books

Barack Obama’s repeated insistence that Bashar al-Assad must leave office – and that there are ‘moderate’ rebel groups in Syria capable of defeating him – has in recent years provoked quiet dissent, and even overt opposition, among some of the most senior officers on the Pentagon’s Joint Staff. Their criticism has focused on what they see as the administration’s fixation on Assad’s primary ally, Vladimir Putin. In their view, Obama is captive to Cold War thinking about Russia and China, and hasn’t adjusted his stance on Syria to the fact both countries share Washington’s anxiety about the spread of terrorism in and beyond Syria; like Washington, they believe that Islamic State must be stopped.

The military’s resistance dates back to the summer of 2013, when a highly classified assessment, put together by the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) and the Joint Chiefs of Staff, then led by General Martin Dempsey, forecast that the fall of the Assad regime would lead to chaos and, potentially, to Syria’s takeover by jihadi extremists , much as was then happening in Libya. A former senior adviser to the Joint Chiefs told me that the document was an ‘all-source’ appraisal, drawing on information from signals, satellite and human intelligence, and took a dim view of the Obama administration’s insistence on continuing to finance and arm the so-called moderate rebel groups. By then, the CIA had been conspiring for more than a year with allies in the UK, Saudi Arabia and Qatar to ship guns and goods – to be used for the overthrow of Assad – from Libya, via Turkey, into Syria. The new intelligence estimate singled out Turkey as a major impediment to Obama’s Syria policy. The document showed, the adviser said, ‘that what was started as a covert US programme to arm and support the moderate rebels fighting Assad had been co-opted by Turkey, and had morphed into an across-the-board technical, arms and logistical programme for all of the opposition, including Jabhat al-Nusra and Islamic State. The so-called moderates had evaporated and the Free Syrian Army was a rump group stationed at an airbase in Turkey.’ The assessment was bleak: there was no viable ‘moderate’ opposition to Assad, and the US was arming extremists.

Lieutenant General Michael Flynn, director of the DIA between 2012 and 2014, confirmed that his agency had sent a constant stream of classified warnings to the civilian leadership about the dire consequences of toppling Assad. The jihadists, he said, were in control of the opposition. Turkey wasn’t doing enough to stop the smuggling of foreign fighters and weapons across the border.

‘If the American public saw the intelligence we were producing daily, at the most sensitive level, they would go ballistic,’ Flynn told me. ‘We understood Isis’s long-term strategy and its campaign plans, and we also discussed the fact that Turkey was looking the other way when it came to the growth of the Islamic State inside Syria.’ The DIA’s reporting, he said, ‘got enormous pushback’ from the Obama administration. ‘I felt that they did not want to hear the truth.’

‘Our policy of arming the opposition to Assad was unsuccessful and actually having a negative impact,’ the former JCS adviser said. ‘The Joint Chiefs believed that Assad should not be replaced by fundamentalists. The administration’s policy was contradictory. They wanted Assad to go but the opposition was dominated by extremists. So who was going to replace him? To say Assad’s got to go is fine, but if you follow that through – therefore anyone is better. It’s the “anybody else is better” issue that the JCS had with Obama’s policy.’ The Joint Chiefs felt that a direct challenge to Obama’s policy would have ‘had a zero chance of success’. So in the autumn of 2013 they decided to take steps against the extremists without going through political channels, by providing US intelligence to the militaries of other nations, on the understanding that it would be passed on to the Syrian army and used against the common enemy, Jabhat al-Nusra and Islamic State.

Germany, Israel and Russia were in contact with the Syrian army, and able to exercise some influence over Assad’s decisions – it was through them that US intelligence would be shared. Each had its reasons for co-operating with Assad: Germany feared what might happen among its own population of six million Muslims if Islamic State expanded; Israel was concerned with border security; Russia had an alliance of very long standing with Syria, and was worried by the threat to its only naval base on the Mediterranean, at Tartus. ‘We weren’t intent on deviating from Obama’s stated policies,’ the adviser said. ‘But sharing our assessments via the military-to-military relationships with other countries could prove productive. It was clear that Assad needed better tactical intelligence and operational advice. The JCS concluded that if those needs were met, the overall fight against Islamist terrorism would be enhanced. Obama didn’t know, but Obama doesn’t know what the JCS does in every circumstance and that’s true of all presidents.’

Once the flow of US intelligence began, Germany, Israel and Russia started passing on information about the whereabouts and intent of radical jihadist groups to the Syrian army; in return, Syria provided information about its own capabilities and intentions. There was no direct contact between the US and the Syrian military; instead, the adviser said, ‘we provided the information – including long-range analyses on Syria’s future put together by contractors or one of our war colleges – and these countries could do with it what they chose, including sharing it with Assad. We were saying to the Germans and the others: “Here’s some information that’s pretty interesting and our interest is mutual.” End of conversation. The JCS could conclude that something beneficial would arise from it – but it was a military to military thing, and not some sort of a sinister Joint Chiefs’ plot to go around Obama and support Assad. It was a lot cleverer than that. If Assad remains in power, it will not be because we did it. It’s because he was smart enough to use the intelligence and sound tactical advice we provided to others.’

*

The public history of relations between the US and Syria over the past few decades has been one of enmity. Assad condemned the 9/11 attacks, but opposed the Iraq War. George W. Bush repeatedly linked Syria to the three members of his ‘axis of evil’ – Iraq, Iran and North Korea – throughout his presidency. State Department cables made public by WikiLeaks show that the Bush administration tried to destabilise Syria and that these efforts continued into the Obama years. In December 2006, William Roebuck, then in charge of the US embassy in Damascus, filed an analysis of the ‘vulnerabilities’ of the Assad government and listed methods ‘that will improve the likelihood’ of opportunities for destabilisation. He recommended that Washington work with Saudi Arabia and Egypt to increase sectarian tension and focus on publicising ‘Syrian efforts against extremist groups’ – dissident Kurds and radical Sunni factions – ‘in a way that suggests weakness, signs of instability, and uncontrolled blowback’; and that the ‘isolation of Syria’ should be encouraged through US support of the National Salvation Front, led by Abdul Halim Khaddam, a former Syrian vice president whose government-in-exile in Riyadh was sponsored by the Saudis and the Muslim Brotherhood. Another 2006 cable showed that the embassy had spent $5 million financing dissidents who ran as independent candidates for the People’s Assembly; the payments were kept up even after it became clear that Syrian intelligence knew what was going on. A 2010 cable warned that funding for a London-based television network run by a Syrian opposition group would be viewed by the Syrian government ‘as a covert and hostile gesture toward the regime’.

But there is also a parallel history of shadowy co-operation between Syria and the US during the same period. The two countries collaborated against al-Qaida, their common enemy. A longtime consultant to America’s intelligence community said that, after 9/11, ‘Bashar was, for years, extremely helpful to us while, in my view, we were churlish in return, and clumsy in our use of the gold he gave us. That quiet co-operation continued among some elements, even after the [Bush administration’s] decision to vilify him.’ In 2002 Assad authorised Syrian intelligence to turn over hundreds of internal files on the activities of the Muslim Brotherhood in Syria and Germany. Later that year, Syrian intelligence foiled an attack by al-Qaida on the headquarters of the US Navy’s Fifth Fleet in Bahrain, and Assad agreed to provide the CIA with the name of a vital al-Qaida informant. In violation of this agreement, the CIA contacted the informant directly; he rejected the approach, and broke off relations with his Syrian handlers. Assad also secretly turned over to the US relatives of Saddam Hussein who had sought refuge in Syria, and – like America’s allies in Jordan, Egypt, Thailand and elsewhere – tortured suspected terrorists for the CIA in a Damascus prison.

It was this history of co-operation that made it seem possible in 2013 that Damascus would agree to the new indirect intelligence-sharing arrangement with the US. The Joint Chiefs let it be known that in return the US would require four things: Assad must restrain Hizbullah from attacking Israel; he must renew the stalled negotiations with Israel to reach a settlement on the Golan Heights; he must agree to accept Russian and other outside military advisers; and he must commit to holding open elections after the war with a wide range of factions included. ‘We had positive feedback from the Israelis, who were willing to entertain the idea, but they needed to know what the reaction would be from Iran and Syria,’ the JCS adviser told me. ‘The Syrians told us that Assad would not make a decision unilaterally – he needed to have support from his military and Alawite allies. Assad’s worry was that Israel would say yes and then not uphold its end of the bargain.’ A senior adviser to the Kremlin on Middle East affairs told me that in late 2012, after suffering a series of battlefield setbacks and military defections, Assad had approached Israel via a contact in Moscow and offered to reopen the talks on the Golan Heights. The Israelis had rejected the offer. ‘They said, “Assad is finished,”’ the Russian official told me. ‘“He’s close to the end.”’ He said the Turks had told Moscow the same thing. By mid-2013, however, the Syrians believed the worst was behind them, and wanted assurances that the Americans and others were serious about their offers of help.

In the early stages of the talks, the adviser said, the Joint Chiefs tried to establish what Assad needed as a sign of their good intentions. The answer was sent through one of Assad’s friends: ‘Bring him the head of Prince Bandar.’ The Joint Chiefs did not oblige. Bandar bin Sultan had served Saudi Arabia for decades in intelligence and national security affairs, and spent more than twenty years as ambassador in Washington. In recent years, he has been known as an advocate for Assad’s removal from office by any means. Reportedly in poor health, he resigned last year as director of the Saudi National Security Council, but Saudi Arabia continues to be a major provider of funds to the Syrian opposition, estimated by US intelligence last year at $700 million.

In July 2013, the Joint Chiefs found a more direct way of demonstrating to Assad how serious they were about helping him. By then the CIA-sponsored secret flow of arms from Libya to the Syrian opposition, via Turkey, had been underway for more than a year (it started sometime after Gaddafi’s death on 20 October 2011).?? The operation was largely run out of a covert CIA annex in Benghazi, with State Department acquiescence. On 11 September 2012 the US ambassador to Libya, Christopher Stevens, was killed during an anti-American demonstration that led to the burning down of the US consulate in Benghazi; reporters for the Washington Postfound copies of the ambassador’s schedule in the building’s ruins. It showed that on 10 September Stevens had met with the chief of the CIA’s annex operation. The next day, shortly before he died, he met a representative from Al-Marfa Shipping and Maritime Services, a Tripoli-based company which, the JCS adviser said, was known by the Joint Staff to be handling the weapons shipments.

By the late summer of 2013, the DIA’s assessment had been circulated widely, but although many in the American intelligence community were aware that the Syrian opposition was dominated by extremists the CIA-sponsored weapons kept coming, presenting a continuing problem for Assad’s army. Gaddafi’s stockpile had created an international arms bazaar, though prices were high. ‘There was no way to stop the arms shipments that had been authorised by the president,’ the JCS adviser said. ‘The solution involved an appeal to the pocketbook. The CIA was approached by a representative from the Joint Chiefs with a suggestion: there were far less costly weapons available in Turkish arsenals that could reach the Syrian rebels within days, and without a boat ride.’ But it wasn’t only the CIA that benefited. ‘We worked with Turks we trusted who were not loyal to Erdo?an,’ the adviser said, ‘and got them to ship the jihadists in Syria all the obsolete weapons in the arsenal, including M1 carbines that hadn’t been seen since the Korean War and lots of Soviet arms. It was a message Assad could understand: “We have the power to diminish a presidential policy in its tracks.”’

The flow of US intelligence to the Syrian army, and the downgrading of the quality of the arms being supplied to the rebels, came at a critical juncture. The Syrian army had suffered heavy losses in the spring of 2013 in fighting against Jabhat al-Nusra and other extremist groups as it failed to hold the provincial capital of Raqqa. Sporadic Syrian army and air-force raids continued in the area for months, with little success, until it was decided to withdraw from Raqqa and other hard to defend, lightly populated areas in the north and west and focus instead on consolidating the government’s hold on Damascus and the heavily populated areas linking the capital to Latakia in the north-east. But as the army gained in strength with the Joint Chiefs’ support, Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Turkey escalated their financing and arming of Jabhat al-Nusra and Islamic State, which by the end of 2013 had made enormous gains on both sides of the Syria/Iraq border. The remaining non-fundamentalist rebels found themselves fighting – and losing – pitched battles against the extremists. In January 2014, IS took complete control of Raqqa and the tribal areas around it from al-Nusra and established the city as its base. Assad still controlled 80 per cent of the Syrian population, but he had lost a vast amount of territory.

CIA efforts to train the moderate rebel forces were also failing badly. ‘The CIA’s training camp was in Jordan and was controlled by a Syrian tribal group,’ the JCS adviser said. There was a suspicion that some of those who signed up for training were actually Syrian army regulars minus their uniforms. This had happened before, at the height of the Iraqi war, when hundreds of Shia militia members showed up at American training camps for new uniforms, weapons and a few days of training, and then disappeared into the desert. A separate training programme, set up by the Pentagon in Turkey, fared no better. The Pentagon acknowledged in September that only ‘four or five’ of its recruits were still battling Islamic State; a few days later 70 of them defected to Jabhat al-Nusra immediately after crossing the border into Syria.

In January 2014, despairing at the lack of progress, John Brennan, the director of the CIA, summoned American and Sunni Arab intelligence chiefs from throughout the Middle East to a secret meeting in Washington, with the aim of persuading Saudi Arabia to stop supporting extremist fighters in Syria. ‘The Saudis told us they were happy to listen,’ the JCS adviser said, ‘so everyone sat around in Washington to hear Brennan tell them that they had to get on board with the so-called moderates. His message was that if everyone in the region stopped supporting al-Nusra and Isis their ammunition and weapons would dry up, and the moderates would win out.’ Brennan’s message was ignored by the Saudis, the adviser said, who ‘went back home and increased their efforts with the extremists and asked us for more technical support. And we say OK, and so it turns out that we end up reinforcing the extremists.’

But the Saudis were far from the only problem: American intelligence had accumulated intercept and human intelligence demonstrating that the Erdo?an government had been supporting Jabhat al-Nusra for years, and was now doing the same for Islamic State. ‘We can handle the Saudis,’ the adviser said. ‘We can handle the Muslim Brotherhood. You can argue that the whole balance in the Middle East is based on a form of mutually assured destruction between Israel and the rest of the Middle East, and Turkey can disrupt the balance – which is Erdo?an’s dream. We told him we wanted him to shut down the pipeline of foreign jihadists flowing into Turkey. But he is dreaming big – of restoring the Ottoman Empire – and he did not realise the extent to which he could be successful in this.’

*

One of the constants in US affairs since the fall of the Soviet Union has been a military-to-military relationship with Russia. After 1991 the US spent billions of dollars to help Russia secure its nuclear weapons complex, including a highly secret joint operation to remove weapons-grade uranium from unsecured storage depots in Kazakhstan. Joint programmes to monitor the security of weapons-grade materials continued for the next two decades. During the American war on Afghanistan, Russia provided overflight rights for US cargo carriers and tankers, as well as access for the flow of weapons, ammunition, food and water the US war machine needed daily. Russia’s military provided intelligence on Osama bin Laden’s whereabouts and helped the US negotiate rights to use an airbase in Kyrgyzstan. The Joint Chiefs have been in communication with their Russian counterparts throughout the Syrian war, and the ties between the two militaries start at the top. In August, a few weeks before his retirement as chairman of the Joint Chiefs, Dempsey made a farewell visit to the headquarters of the Irish Defence Forces in Dublin and told his audience there that he had made a point while in office to keep in touch with the chief of the Russian General Staff, General Valery Gerasimov. ‘I’ve actually suggested to him that we not end our careers as we began them,’ Dempsey said – one a tank commander in West Germany, the other in the east.

When it comes to tackling Islamic State, Russia and the US have much to offer each other. Many in the IS leadership and rank and file fought for more than a decade against Russia in the two Chechen wars that began in 1994, and the Putin government is heavily invested in combating Islamist terrorism. ‘Russia knows the Isis leadership,’ the JCS adviser said, ‘and has insights into its operational techniques, and has much intelligence to share.’ In return, he said, ‘we’ve got excellent trainers with years of experience in training foreign fighters – experience that Russia does not have.’ The adviser would not discuss what American intelligence is also believed to have: an ability to obtain targeting data, often by paying huge sums of cash, from sources within rebel militias.

A former White House adviser on Russian affairs told me that before 9/11 Putin ‘used to say to us: “We have the same nightmares about different places.” He was referring to his problems with the caliphate in Chechnya and our early issues with al-Qaida. These days, after the Metrojet bombing over Sinai and the massacres in Paris and elsewhere, it’s hard to avoid the conclusion that we actually have the same nightmares about the same places.’

Yet the Obama administration continues to condemn Russia for its support of Assad. A retired senior diplomat who served at the US embassy in Moscow expressed sympathy for Obama’s dilemma as the leader of the Western coalition opposed to Russia’s aggression against Ukraine: ‘Ukraine is a serious issue and Obama has been handling it firmly with sanctions. But our policy vis-à-vis Russia is too often unfocused. But it’s not about us in Syria. It’s about making sure Bashar does not lose. The reality is that Putin does not want to see the chaos in Syria spread to Jordan or Lebanon, as it has to Iraq, and he does not want to see Syria end up in the hands of Isis. The most counterproductive thing Obama has done, and it has hurt our efforts to end the fighting a lot, was to say: “Assad must go as a premise for negotiation.”’ He also echoed a view held by some in the Pentagon when he alluded to a collateral factor behind Russia’s decision to launch airstrikes in support of the Syrian army on 30 September: Putin’s desire to prevent Assad from suffering the same fate as Gaddafi. He had been told that Putin had watched a video of Gaddafi’s savage death three times, a video that shows him being sodomised with a bayonet. The JCS adviser also told me of a US intelligence assessment which concluded that Putin had been appalled by Gaddafi’s fate: ‘Putin blamed himself for letting Gaddafi go, for not playing a strong role behind the scenes’ at the UN when the Western coalition was lobbying to be allowed to undertake the airstrikes that destroyed the regime. ‘Putin believed that unless he got engaged Bashar would suffer the same fate – mutilated – and he’d see the destruction of his allies in Syria.’

In a speech on 22 November, Obama declared that the ‘principal targets’ of the Russian airstrikes ‘have been the moderate opposition’. It’s a line that the administration – along with most of the mainstream American media – has rarely strayed from. The Russians insist that they are targeting all rebel groups that threaten Syria’s stability – including Islamic State. The Kremlin adviser on the Middle East explained in an interview that the first round of Russian airstrikes was aimed at bolstering security around a Russian airbase in Latakia, an Alawite stronghold. The strategic goal, he said, has been to establish a jihadist-free corridor from Damascus to Latakia and the Russian naval base at Tartus and then to shift the focus of bombing gradually to the south and east, with a greater concentration of bombing missions over IS-held territory. Russian strikes on IS targets in and near Raqqa were reported as early as the beginning of October; in November there were further strikes on IS positions near the historic city of Palmyra and in Idlib province, a bitterly contested stronghold on the Turkish border.

Russian incursions into Turkish airspace began soon after Putin authorised the bombings, and the Russian air force deployed electronic jamming systems that interfered with Turkish radar. The message being sent to the Turkish air force, the JCS adviser said, was: ‘We’re going to fly our fighter planes where we want and when we want and jam your radar. Do not fuck with us. Putin was letting the Turks know what they were up against.’ Russia’s aggression led to Turkish complaints and Russian denials, along with more aggressive border patrolling by the Turkish air force. There were no significant incidents until 24 November, when two Turkish F-16 fighters, apparently acting under more aggressive rules of engagement, shot down a Russian Su-24M jet that had crossed into Turkish airspace for no more than 17 seconds. In the days after the fighter was shot down, Obama expressed support for Erdo?an, and after they met in private on 1 December he told a press conference that his administration remained ‘very much committed to Turkey’s security and its sovereignty’. He said that as long as Russia remained allied with Assad, ‘a lot of Russian resources are still going to be targeted at opposition groups … that we support … So I don’t think we should be under any illusions that somehow Russia starts hitting only Isil targets. That’s not happening now. It was never happening. It’s not going to be happening in the next several weeks.’

The Kremlin adviser on the Middle East, like the Joint Chiefs and the DIA, dismisses the ‘moderates’ who have Obama’s support, seeing them as extremist Islamist groups that fight alongside Jabhat al-Nusra and IS (‘There’s no need to play with words and split terrorists into moderate and not moderate,’ Putin said in a speech on 22 October). The American generals see them as exhausted militias that have been forced to make an accommodation with Jabhat al-Nusra or IS in order to survive. At the end of 2014, Jürgen Todenhöfer, a German journalist who was allowed to spend ten days touring IS-held territory in Iraq and Syria, told CNN that the IS leadership ‘are all laughing about the Free Syrian Army. They don’t take them for serious. They say: “The best arms sellers we have are the FSA. If they get a good weapon, they sell it to us.” They didn’t take them for serious. They take for serious Assad. They take for serious, of course, the bombs. But they fear nothing, and FSA doesn’t play a role.’

*

Putin’s bombing campaign provoked a series of anti-Russia articles in the American press. On 25 October, the New York Times reported, citing Obama administration officials, that Russian submarines and spy ships were ‘aggressively’ operating near the undersea cables that carry much of the world’s internet traffic – although, as the article went on to acknowledge, there was ‘no evidence yet’ of any Russian attempt actually to interfere with that traffic. Ten days earlier the Times published a summary of Russian intrusions into its former Soviet satellite republics, and described the Russian bombing in Syria as being ‘in some respects a return to the ambitious military moves of the Soviet past’. The report did not note that the Assad administration had invited Russia to intervene, nor did it mention the US bombing raids inside Syria that had been underway since the previous September, without Syria’s approval. An October op-ed in the same paper by Michael McFaul, Obama’s ambassador to Russia between 2012 and 2014, declared that the Russian air campaign was attacking ‘everyone except the Islamic State’. The anti-Russia stories did not abate after the Metrojet disaster, for which Islamic State claimed credit. Few in the US government and media questioned why IS would target a Russian airliner, along with its 224 passengers and crew, if Moscow’s air force was attacking only the Syrian ‘moderates’.

Economic sanctions, meanwhile, are still in effect against Russia for what a large number of Americans consider Putin’s war crimes in Ukraine, as are US Treasury Department sanctions against Syria and against those Americans who do business there. The New York Times, in a report on sanctions in late November, revived an old and groundless assertion, saying that the Treasury’s actions ‘emphasise an argument that the administration has increasingly been making about Mr Assad as it seeks to press Russia to abandon its backing for him: that although he professes to be at war with Islamist terrorists, he has a symbiotic relationship with the Islamic State that has allowed it to thrive while he has clung to power.’

*

The four core elements of Obama’s Syria policy remain intact today: an insistence that Assad must go; that no anti-IS coalition with Russia is possible; that Turkey is a steadfast ally in the war against terrorism; and that there really are significant moderate opposition forces for the US to support. The Paris attacks on 13 November that killed 130 people did not change the White House’s public stance, although many European leaders, including François Hollande, advocated greater co-operation with Russia and agreed to co-ordinate more closely with its air force; there was also talk of the need to be more flexible about the timing of Assad’s exit from power. On 24 November, Hollande flew to Washington to discuss how France and the US could collaborate more closely in the fight against Islamic State. At a joint press conference at the White House, Obama said he and Hollande had agreed that ‘Russia’s strikes against the moderate opposition only bolster the Assad regime, whose brutality has helped to fuel the rise’ of IS. Hollande didn’t go that far but he said that the diplomatic process in Vienna would ‘lead to Bashar al-Assad’s departure … a government of unity is required.’ The press conference failed to deal with the far more urgent impasse between the two men on the matter of Erdo?an. Obama defended Turkey’s right to defend its borders; Hollande said it was ‘a matter of urgency’ for Turkey to take action against terrorists. The JCS adviser told me that one of Hollande’s main goals in flying to Washington had been to try to persuade Obama to join the EU in a mutual declaration of war against Islamic State. Obama said no. The Europeans had pointedly not gone to Nato, to which Turkey belongs, for such a declaration. ‘Turkey is the problem,’ the JCS adviser said.

Assad, naturally, doesn’t accept that a group of foreign leaders should be deciding on his future. Imad Moustapha, now Syria’s ambassador to China, was dean of the IT faculty at the University of Damascus, and a close aide of Assad’s, when he was appointed in 2004 as the Syrian ambassador to the US, a post he held for seven years. Moustapha is known still to be close to Assad, and can be trusted to reflect what he thinks. He told me that for Assad to surrender power would mean capitulating to ‘armed terrorist groups’ and that ministers in a national unity government – such as was being proposed by the Europeans – would be seen to be beholden to the foreign powers that appointed them. These powers could remind the new president ‘that they could easily replace him as they did before to the predecessor … Assad owes it to his people: he could not leave because the historic enemies of Syria are demanding his departure.’

*

Moustapha also brought up China, an ally of Assad that has allegedly committed more than $30 billion to postwar reconstruction in Syria. China, too, is worried about Islamic State. ‘China regards the Syrian crisis from three perspectives,’ he said: international law and legitimacy; global strategic positioning; and the activities of jihadist Uighurs, from Xinjiang province in China’s far west. Xinjiang borders eight nations – Mongolia, Russia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Afghanistan, Pakistan and India – and, in China’s view, serves as a funnel for terrorism around the world and within China. Many Uighur fighters now in Syria are known to be members of the East Turkestan Islamic Movement – an often violent separatist organisation that seeks to establish an Islamist Uighur state in Xinjiang. ‘The fact that they have been aided by Turkish intelligence to move from China into Syria through Turkey has caused a tremendous amount of tension between the Chinese and Turkish intelligence,’ Moustapha said. ‘China is concerned that the Turkish role of supporting the Uighur fighters in Syria may be extended in the future to support Turkey’s agenda in Xinjiang. We are already providing the Chinese intelligence service with information regarding these terrorists and the routes they crossed from on travelling into Syria.’

Moustapha’s concerns were echoed by a Washington foreign affairs analyst who has closely followed the passage of jihadists through Turkey and into Syria. The analyst, whose views are routinely sought by senior government officials, told me that ‘Erdo?an has been bringing Uighurs into Syria by special transport while his government has been agitating in favour of their struggle in China. Uighur and Burmese Muslim terrorists who escape into Thailand somehow get Turkish passports and are then flown to Turkey for transit into Syria.’ He added that there was also what amounted to another ‘rat line’ that was funnelling Uighurs – estimates range from a few hundred to many thousands over the years – from China into Kazakhstan for eventual relay to Turkey, and then to IS territory in Syria. ‘US intelligence,’ he said, ‘is not getting good information about these activities because those insiders who are unhappy with the policy are not talking to them.’ He also said it was ‘not clear’ that the officials responsible for Syrian policy in the State Department and White House ‘get it’. IHS-Jane’s Defence Weekly estimated in October that as many as five thousand Uighur would-be fighters have arrived in Turkey since 2013, with perhaps two thousand moving on to Syria. Moustapha said he has information that ‘up to 860 Uighur fighters are currently in Syria.’

China’s growing concern about the Uighur problem and its link to Syria and Islamic State have preoccupied Christina Lin, a scholar who dealt with Chinese issues a decade ago while serving in the Pentagon under Donald Rumsfeld. ‘I grew up in Taiwan and came to the Pentagon as a critic of China,’ Lin told me. ‘I used to demonise the Chinese as ideologues, and they are not perfect. But over the years as I see them opening up and evolving, I have begun to change my perspective. I see China as a potential partner for various global challenges especially in the Middle East. There are many places – Syria for one – where the United States and China must co-operate in regional security and counterterrorism.’ A few weeks earlier, she said, China and India, Cold War enemies that ‘hated each other more than China and the United States hated each other, conducted a series of joint counterterrorism exercises. And today China and Russia both want to co-operate on terrorism issues with the United States.’ As China sees it, Lin suggests, Uighur militants who have made their way to Syria are being trained by Islamic State in survival techniques intended to aid them on covert return trips to the Chinese mainland, for future terrorist attacks there. ‘If Assad fails,’ Lin wrote in a paper published in September, ‘jihadi fighters from Russia’s Chechnya, China’s Xinjiang and India’s Kashmir will then turn their eyes towards the home front to continue jihad, supported by a new and well-sourced Syrian operating base in the heart of the Middle East.’

*

General Dempsey and his colleagues on the Joint Chiefs of Staff kept their dissent out of bureaucratic channels, and survived in office. General Michael Flynn did not. ‘Flynn incurred the wrath of the White House by insisting on telling the truth about Syria,’ said Patrick Lang, a retired army colonel who served for nearly a decade as the chief Middle East civilian intelligence officer for the DIA. ‘He thought truth was the best thing and they shoved him out. He wouldn’t shut up.’ Flynn told me his problems went beyond Syria. ‘I was shaking things up at the DIA – and not just moving deckchairs on the Titanic. It was radical reform. I felt that the civilian leadership did not want to hear the truth. I suffered for it, but I’m OK with that.’ In a recent interview in Der Spiegel, Flynn was blunt about Russia’s entry into the Syrian war: ‘We have to work constructively with Russia. Whether we like it or not, Russia made a decision to be there and to act militarily. They are there, and this has dramatically changed the dynamic. So you can’t say Russia is bad; they have to go home. It’s not going to happen. Get real.’

Few in the US Congress share this view. One exception is Tulsi Gabbard, a Democrat from Hawaii and member of the House Armed Services Committee who, as a major in the Army National Guard, served two tours in the Middle East. In an interview on CNN in October she said: ‘The US and the CIA should stop this illegal and counterproductive war to overthrow the Syrian government of Assad and should stay focused on fighting against … the Islamic extremist groups.’

‘Does it not concern you,’ the interviewer asked, ‘that Assad’s regime has been brutal, killing at least 200,000 and maybe 300,000 of his own people?’

‘The things that are being said about Assad right now,’ Gabbard responded, ‘are the same that were said about Gaddafi, they are the same things that were said about Saddam Hussein by those who were advocating for the US to … overthrow those regimes … If it happens here in Syria … we will end up in a situation with far greater suffering, with far greater persecution of religious minorities and Christians in Syria, and our enemy will be far stronger.’

‘So what you are saying,’ the interviewer asked, ‘is that the Russian military involvement in the air and on-the-ground Iranian involvement – they are actually doing the US a favour?’

‘They are working toward defeating our common enemy,’ Gabbard replied.

Gabbard later told me that many of her colleagues in Congress, Democrats and Republicans, have thanked her privately for speaking out. ‘There are a lot of people in the general public, and even in the Congress, who need to have things clearly explained to them,’ Gabbard said. ‘But it’s hard when there’s so much deception about what is going on. The truth is not out.’ It’s unusual for a politician to challenge her party’s foreign policy directly and on the record. For someone on the inside, with access to the most secret intelligence, speaking openly and critically can be a career-ender. Informed dissent can be transmitted by means of a trust relationship between a reporter and those on the inside, but it almost invariably includes no signature. The dissent exists, however. The longtime consultant to the Joint Special Operations Command could not hide his contempt when I asked him for his view of the US’s Syria policy. ‘The solution in Syria is right before our nose,’ he said. ‘Our primary threat is Isis and all of us – the United States, Russia and China – need to work together. Bashar will remain in office and, after the country is stabilised there will be an election. There is no other option.’

The military’s indirect pathway to Assad disappeared with Dempsey’s retirement in September. His replacement as chairman of the Joint Chiefs, General Joseph Dunford, testified before the Senate Armed Services Committee in July, two months before assuming office. ‘If you want to talk about a nation that could pose an existential threat to the United States, I’d have to point to Russia,’ Dunford said. ‘If you look at their behaviour, it’s nothing short of alarming.’ In October, as chairman, Dunford dismissed the Russian bombing efforts in Syria, telling the same committee that Russia ‘is not fighting’ IS. He added that America must ‘work with Turkish partners to secure the northern border of Syria’ and ‘do all we can to enable vetted Syrian opposition forces’ – i.e. the ‘moderates’ – to fight the extremists.

Obama now has a more compliant Pentagon. There will be no more indirect challenges from the military leadership to his policy of disdain for Assad and support for Erdo?an. Dempsey and his associates remain mystified by Obama’s continued public defence of Erdo?an, given the American intelligence community’s strong case against him – and the evidence that Obama, in private, accepts that case. ‘We know what you’re doing with the radicals in Syria,’ the president told Erdo?an’s intelligence chief at a tense meeting at the White House (as I reported in the LRB of 17 April 2014). The Joint Chiefs and the DIA were constantly telling Washington’s leadership of the jihadist threat in Syria, and of Turkey’s support for it. The message was never listened to. Why not?



http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-12-22/seymour-hersh-bombshell-us-mi
litary-shared-intelligence-assad-defiance-obama-cia


In light of all this, I withdraw my speculation that Obama may have been an innocent bystander for neocon actions. It looks as if his fingers are deeply hidden (by the CIA) but busily at work, still pushing the anti-Russian agenda forward, come hell, high water, or metastaticzing jihadism.

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Wednesday, December 23, 2015 4:04 PM

THGRRI


Some of you guys are killing these threads with all the videos you are posting. They take forever to load. Give it a break


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Sunday, December 27, 2015 11:30 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


New Kids on the Block: Saudi Coalition to 'Stall Joint Anti-Daesh Effort'

Quote:

Parties to the Syrian conflict, including new ones, are pursuing completely different goals in this standoff, which undermines a joint fight against Daesh militants, according to the US-based intelligence firm Stratfor.

The US-based intelligence firm Stratfor suggested that a united fight against Daesh (ISIL/Islamic State) terrorists may be undermined by "the differing goals and interests" of the Syrian conflict's participants. Stratfor analyzed the possible consequences of the participation of "new faces" — members of the so-called Islamic military coalition, which was recently announced by Saudi Arabia. According to Sratfor, "an end to the Syrian conflict is nowhere in sight, and more countries are being drawn into the fray."

"Responding to US pressure and keen to have more influence on the direction of the Syrian civil war, the Saudis are attempting to coordinate a deployment of troops on the ground in Syria alongside their allies," [al Qaida- SIGNYM] Stratfor said. It referred to the United States and Turkey as the countries which are also interested in the deployment of Arab forces in Syria. As for Washington, Stratfor said, it has repeatedly been criticized over "a perceived lack of progress in the war" against Daesh, which is why the White House currently wants to draw additional forces in the region.



http://sputniknews.com/middleeast/20151227/1032369713/syria-daesh-coal
ition.html#ixzz3vXZoRcRi


I'm not sure if you know who Strafor is. I suggest you look it up.

What I see now is a war of attrition, with the USA and Saudi Arabia (that barbaric enforcer and promoter of Wahhabism) in alliance. I'll detail that later, maybe.

--------------------

In a previous thread, I speculated that world powers were getting closer to war.

Well, that moment is here. War is being waged on informational, economic, financial, political, militia, and proxy-fronts. Full-scale nuclear war has been openly threatened (by Russia). The only thing lacking is the major militaries directly confronting each other with soldiers, tanks, warships, and airplanes.

Like the paired DNA breaking apart and each forming a separate pole, nations and entities - by their actions- are splitting apart, distinguishing themselves from each other when they were previously amorphous. The location of this polarization is Syraq. On the one hand is Russia, Iran, Syria, Hezbollah, nominally China, and possible partners or neutrals like India, Egypt, the Causasus, and south and central America.

On the other side is ISIL, al Qaida, Boko Haram, Saudi Arabia/GCC, and (I'm ashamed to say) the USA and the EU. And the international banks, one should never forget those.

I can't believe ... here we are, on the side of terrorists and Nazis.

I weep for my country.

--------------

On a knee-jerk level, people support the deep-state of the USA, UK, or EU. But the time has come, I think to decide- WHAT DO YOU REALLY SUPPORT? What are you really for?


--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

There is a difference between THUGR is a genius., and THUGR is a "genius". And everyone knows it except THUGR, who is a "genius".

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Sunday, December 27, 2015 4:21 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Oh. my. god.

When Saudi Arabia announced the 'coalition', and Malaysia and Pakistan who were supposed members said 'Hey! That's the first WE ever heard about it!', I assumed it was a publicity stunt.

But it now seems real, and the 'coalition' is set to put troops in Syria - without invite or permission, which makes them aggressor nations - and the US is backing it?

Oh. crap.

Russia can't help but interpret this as a US/ EU plan to use proxies to destroy it. And it WILL react in a definitive military way. It can't help BUT do that. This is reckless, insane escalation. Because when, not if, Russia responds, what will happen next? Other countries will be drawn in and line up on one side, or the other, in a feedback cycle of increasing war.

Does Obama WANT WWIII? (Which I guarantee will be nuclear.) Is he fine with that?

THGR, kpo, 'G' - are YOU fine with that?





SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Monday, December 28, 2015 10:55 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


As usual, you're looking at the sources and not what it says.

I suggested that you look up Stratfor not because it's universally right, but because it's CLEARLY NOT A PRO-RUSSIAN ORGANIZATION. A point which you amply demonstrated for me, thank you!

Now, do you have anything INTERESTING AND ON-TOPIC TO SAY? Or are you reflexively spewing crap, again?



--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

There is a difference between THUGR is a genius., and THUGR is a "genius". And everyone knows it except THUGR, who is a "genius".

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Monday, December 28, 2015 2:09 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Oh. my. god.

When Saudi Arabia announced the 'coalition', and Malaysia and Pakistan who were supposed members said 'Hey! That's the first WE ever heard about it!', I assumed it was a publicity stunt.

But it now seems real, and the 'coalition' is set to put troops in Syria - without invite or permission, which makes them aggressor nations - and the US is backing it?

Oh. crap.

Russia can't help but interpret this as a US/ EU plan to use proxies to destroy it. And it WILL react in a definitive military way. It can't help BUT do that. This is reckless, insane escalation. Because when, not if, Russia responds, what will happen next? Other countries will be drawn in and line up on one side, or the other, in a feedback cycle of increasing war.

Does Obama WANT WWIII? (Which I guarantee will be nuclear.) Is he fine with that?

THGR, kpo, 'G' - are YOU fine with that?



Iran (Shia) and Saudi Arabia (Sunni) are engaged in a war of religions that engulfs the Middle East. I don’t know how many times this has to be explained to you. The United States is trying to get the Arab nations to fight their own battles, while blocking the Republicans here from marching another fifty thousand troops into the conflicts there.

Fuck Russia, without the use of Nukes it would be over in a month if full scale war is declared.



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Monday, December 28, 2015 2:52 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:


There is a difference between THUGR is a genius., and THUGR is a "genius". And everyone knows it except THUGR, who is a "genius".



Love the complement SIG. The way this is written it clearly states that you consider me not only a genius, but by restating it and putting it in quotes, incredible. Wish I could say the same about you but alas, you are a moron.

As for your Turkey invades Iraq quote. Since you were in attack mode and criticizing Turkey with no mention of previous conversations about the term invasion, you clearly were not being sarcastic.


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Monday, December 28, 2015 2:59 PM

THGRRI


Originally posted by G:


Stratfor is big in the world speculation business. Stands for: Strategic Forecasting (no wonder SINGSLIKEACANARY likes them so much).

http://www.businessinsider.com/stratfor-has-11-chilling-predictions-fo
r-what-the-world-will-look-like-in-10-years-2015-6


Stratfor has 11 chilling predictions for what the world will look like in 10 years

#1
Russia will collapse ...

*gasp*!...wait... I have to catch my breath... laughing too hard... ok:

"There will not be an uprising against Moscow, but Moscow's withering ability to support and control the Russian Federation will leave a vacuum," Stratfor warns. "What will exist in this vacuum will be the individual fragments of the Russian Federation."

Sanctions, declining oil prices, a plunging ruble, rising military expenses, and increasing internal discord will weaken the hold of Russia's central government over the world's largest country. Russia will not officially split into multiple countries, but Moscow's power may loosen to the point that Russia will effectively become a string of semiautonomous regions that might not even get along with one another.

"We expect Moscow's authority to weaken substantially, leading to the formal and informal fragmentation of Russia" the report states, adding, "It is unlikely that the Russian Federation will survive in its current form."

Awww SNIGGLES, just when you thought things were going so well for your new country!

Hey! OMG! Look what else they said:

"The world has been restructuring itself since 2008, when Russia invaded Georgia and the subprime financial crisis struck."

*double snort* that's just too good - you sure can pick 'em.


"Yea", this is just too good to be true. Hey 1kiki, are you and SIG OK with that?

Hey SIG look. Yea is in quotation marks. What could I possible mean by that?


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Monday, December 28, 2015 8:51 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Iran (Shia) and Saudi Arabia (Sunni) are engaged in a war of religions that engulfs the Middle East.

Which religious sects were involved in Egypt? Libya? Tunisia? Algeria? Iraq? It sure seems like the US and the western world* (more on this later) go out of their way to be involved in this so-called 'sectarian' strife, with no visible sectarian interests involved - or mentioned by the US or the western press.

The United States is trying to get the Arab nations to fight their own battles... * Then why is it involved in supporting one side over the other, and using everything BUT boots on the ground (except, of course illegal secretive actions by the CIA) to support one side or the other? Are you trying to tell me that the US insistence 'Assad must go' (or Hussein, Qaddafi, Mubarak, or Abidine Ben Ali) is the US NOT engaging itself in that strife? Is THAT the US letting them 'fight their own battles'?




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Tuesday, December 29, 2015 5:22 AM

JAYNEZTOWN


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:


So, why do you think Islam is so bad compared to the teachings of other religions and the actions of their most dedicated adherents?




here is one for you, its a link...now before I post it I will give you a warning the writer may be a Deist, he might have a philosophy of Deism....but I'm not selling you anything just asking you to look at some written ideas


http://www.sullivan-county.com/id2/index.htm

The article is interesting
I am not selling you religion, not selling you Christianity or asking you to change philosophy or go to a Hindu temple or change and become Buddhist

I will sum its conclusion in case you can't be bothered to read


Quote:

Originally posted by EXTERNAL WEBSITE from a philosophical math teacher and professor:

Conclusion

Islam today is the most violent and intolerant faith on earth and for no good reason. Muslims have lost both their greatness and reason for conspiracy theories, hysteria, and terrorism.

Today most Muslim countries produce nothing and the per capita income even of wealthy Saudi Arabia is half that of South Korea and going down. Most Muslims sit by in silence or make excuses. Religious fundamentalism has left Islam unable to modernize, innovate, or Muslims even to feed themselves. Millions of Muslims live on Western handouts while calling for the death of those that feed them. Islam needs a Muslim Thomas Paine or Thomas Jefferson. The alternative is continued war and conflict with every nation on earth and eventual extermination.

If there is anything factually incorrect on this page, e-mail me and I'll correct it. Send verifiable proof.



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Tuesday, December 29, 2015 8:22 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Iran (Shia) and Saudi Arabia (Sunni) are engaged in a war of religions that engulfs the Middle East.


It's always tough to tell when a nation is engaging in a religious war for economic reasons, an economic war for religious reasons, or a shooting war for national reasons.

With more information, I've re-thought my speculation about the mideast troubles being a result of a Sunni-Shia war.

IMHO there are only TWO nations in the Mideast that are engaged in religious wars: Saudi Arabia and Israel. Iran, although theocratic, isn't trying to impose the Shia version of Islam on anybody. They seem to be fighting mostly defensively, and their motives appear to be along the lines of nationalism.

Quote:

I don’t know how many times this has to be explained to you. The United States is trying to get the Arab nations to fight their own battles, while blocking the Republicans here from marching another fifty thousand troops into the conflicts there.


First of all, that's 100% bullshit. Leaked embassy cables show that the USA has been fomenting sectarian division in Syria since 2006. Also, there's all of those overt invasions and covert CIA activities - funded by illegal drug trafficking, which the USA Army is prohibited from interfering with (You want to know the reason for the recent "heroin epidemic"? Try cheap opium, sourced from Afghanistan.)

In addition to being 100% counterfactual, you reveal your pro-Democrat biases by saying
"The United States is ... while blocking the Republicans". It's like you think Republicans are NOT part of the United States; only the Democrats in the WH are "the United States"! You should be clearer, at least in your own mind.

Quote:

Fuck Russia, without the use of Nukes it would be over in a month if full scale war is declared.
Yes, but not in the direction you think. The military .... not the spooks illegally funding their covert ops with drug sales, but the real military ... is loathe to tangle with Russia, for all kinds of reasons (weapons).

Everything you wrote is wrong. Unbelievable! But at least you're consistent.


--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

There is a difference between THUGR is a genius., and THUGR is a "genius". And everyone knows it except THUGR, who is a "genius".

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Monday, January 4, 2016 12:39 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Well, it looks like hellzapoppin' in the ME.

Saudi Arabia - fomenter of jihadism, brutal theocratic tyranny, and our friend and ally - did one of its mass executions a few days ago.


More executions this year than for many previous decades, and an indication that the current Monarch Salman bin Abdulaziz Al Saud

... or his favorite first son by his third wife, Mohamed bin Salman Al Saud

(It's a little hard to tell who's driving the bus) is far more aggressive than the previous monarch.

One of those executed was a well-known Shia cleric, Sheikh Nimr al-Nimr, who was convicted of "terrorist acts". This set off a firestorm- literally- of protest in Iran, as the Saudi Embassy was set on fire. The Saudis and their postage-stamp allies (including Bahrain, which is majority Shia but headed by a Sunni theocracy itself) have either cut diplomatic ties with Iran or downgraded them.

Given that Saudi Arabia was warned by the west about executing the Shia cleric, this execution was an entirely deliberate provocation.

And sure enough, the Iranians were provoked, and in a pre-planned bit of political theater the KSA and its postage-stamp allies went off in a snit.

So, why now?

It must be to derail the UN Syrian peace process which the USA, Russia, Iran, and Saudi Arabia are to begin.

And, as expected, the "opposition" in Syrian - MOSTLY FUNDED BY SAUDI ARABIA (so much for those "moderate Syrian rebels!) are pulling out of the peace talks.

The Saudis clearly don't want a peace. And the only reason to toss the chessboard is when things aren't going well! Either the Russian military action is having the desired effect of routing Saudi terrorists, or the Saudi's oil-price war has boomeranged (subsidy cuts in the KSA!), or the Saudi's two-front war is draining their coffers, or the USA is sidling out the door ... but clearly the Saudis feel as if they're in a weak bargaining positions and don't anticipate a positive outcome from negotiations.


Obama- your move?

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Monday, January 4, 2016 2:39 PM

THGRRI


Every one here SIG knows Saudi Arabia is an ally to the United States. Everyone here also knows you are allied with Russia. Therefore your ally is Iran.

So, it is probably best when you refer to Saudi Arabia you do not refer to them as our ally in a way that suggests the word (our) includes you.

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Monday, January 4, 2016 5:16 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by G:
Quote:

Originally posted by THGRRI:
So, it is probably best when you refer to Saudi Arabia you do not refer to them as our ally in a way that suggests the word (our) includes you.



Heh heh - I love when she tries to pull the "I weep for my country..." bs.

SNIGGLES, hate to break it to you again... we know. It has been that obvious for a very long time. It kind of undermines your conceit when you think we don't see the bright red hammer and sickle tattoo on your forehead.






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Tuesday, January 5, 2016 9:46 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


You guys must really love ISIL.


--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Thursday, January 7, 2016 8:28 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Originally posted by G:
Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
You guys must really love ISIL.



:eyeroll:

STIGMA'S Top 10 Things to do in 2016:

1. Bring more Stupid...
2. Over Simplify Everything
3. Admit confusion occasionally to gain empathy
4. Work harder at acting sincere
5. see #1
6. Join the Right Wing to fight boredom
7. Smack Kiki
8. Randomly agree with people to throw them off
9. Start spelling "Nazi" ISIL
And Number 10: See #5


Following THUGR'S example, I noticed you don't object when THUGR pulls out the "commie troll" and "comrade" epithets. Not that you're biased or anything, but it's just weird that you notice these ad hominens when I do them (in direct honor of our dear friend, THUGR) but not when he does. So I figured I'd return the favor.


--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Friday, January 8, 2016 11:14 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Since your monomania about Russia appears in every single friggin' thread that you post in, relevant or not, maybe you should explain yourself here:

WHY I ABHOR RUSSIA
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60306

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Friday, January 8, 2016 2:09 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

Originally posted by G:
Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
You guys must really love ISIL.



:eyeroll:

STIGMA'S Top 10 Things to do in 2016:

1. Bring more Stupid...
2. Over Simplify Everything
3. Admit confusion occasionally to gain empathy
4. Work harder at acting sincere
5. see #1
6. Join the Right Wing to fight boredom
7. Smack Kiki
8. Randomly agree with people to throw them off
9. Start spelling "Nazi" ISIL
And Number 10: See #5


Following THUGR'S example, I noticed you don't object when THUGR pulls out the "commie troll" and "comrade" epithets. Not that you're biased or anything, but it's just weird that you notice these ad hominens when I do them (in direct honor of our dear friend, THUGR) but not when he does. So I figured I'd return the favor.





Oops, there's those pesky quotes again SIG. I guess what you are really saying is that I do not pull out the commie troll and comrade epithets.
You're such an ass.

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Monday, January 11, 2016 8:33 AM

JAYNEZTOWN


Break the oil addiction, replace the energy needs with solar, biofuel, nuclear, wind whatever

Have another commodity back the Dollar - Gold, Uranium, Coffee, Copper, Helium-3, Computer chips, Bit coins, Silver whatever it needs....just break that Petro-Dollar bondage
taking the Dollar off the Gold Standard was a massive mistake

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