REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

16 Shots

POSTED BY: WHOZIT
UPDATED: Sunday, November 29, 2015 12:46
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 2235
PAGE 1 of 1

Wednesday, November 25, 2015 6:34 PM

WHOZIT



NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, November 25, 2015 9:16 PM

THGRRI


No doubt about this, it is an execution.


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, November 25, 2015 9:32 PM

REAVERFAN


I don't want to see this. I want that pig to do life.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, November 26, 2015 8:58 AM

RAHLMACLAREN

"Damn yokels, can't even tell a transport ship ain't got no guns on it." - Jayne Cobb


My brain's a little fried. Trying to word this right.

I wonder what percentage of the police officers that have killed black suspects in the last 5 years, that have been in the military (especially Iraq and Afghanistan) is?

Hmm, doesn't sound quite right. Hell, none of it's right!



Find here the Serenity you seek. -Tara Maclay

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, November 26, 2015 11:39 AM

WHOZIT


He could have dropped him with a stun gun, instead he gunned him down like a rabid dog. That guy is evil or insane or both, if that video hadn't been released the city may have let this blow over.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, November 26, 2015 3:55 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by whozit:
He could have dropped him with a stun gun, instead he gunned him down like a rabid dog. That guy is evil or insane or both, if that video hadn't been released the city may have let this blow over.



The reason we hadn't seen this earlier is they were hoping it would go away. This is a multi-million dollar law suit and the city knows it. It isn't about the cop or the kid. It's the money...


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, November 27, 2015 10:51 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I guess that's how we treat mental illness and intoxication in the USA.

I really think we need to rethink our whole approach to crime, criminality, and punishment in the USA. We have the highest incarceration rate in the whole world, exceeding China, Russia, and other "repressive" states by a wide margin, and yet we still have a really high crime rate. Why do we keep doing the same thing over and over again, expecting that it will work THIS time, as opposed to the last 100 million times?

Are we incapable of learning?

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, November 27, 2015 12:42 PM

THGRRI



Quote:

SIG

I guess that's how we treat mental illness and intoxication in the USA.



One of the problems we have today are some taking every unfortunate incident they can, to label the police as a whole, as being out of control. They are not reporting on the other encounters the police had with citizens across the country that did not end tragically. This time the cop was definitely in the wrong. Many times however the cop is not wrong but gets caught up in the bullshit of those who have a zero sum perspective. In a zero-sum situation, it is impossible for one party to advance its position without the other party suffering a corresponding loss. Therefore in the black community police in general are portrayed as a part of the community’s problem instead of being an outlier. A person or thing detached from the main body or system. In the case of the black community, the life style and dysfunction expressed within is the problem. The police trying to maintain some semblance of order there and things ending badly at times is the outlier.

Quote:

SIG

I really think we need to rethink our whole approach to crime, criminality, and punishment in the USA. We have the highest incarceration rate in the whole world, exceeding China, Russia, and other "repressive" states by a wide margin, and yet we still have a really high crime rate. Why do we keep doing the same thing over and over again, expecting that it will work THIS time, as opposed to the last 100 million times?



Rethinking this countries approach to crime has been on the forefront of the political campaigns in both parties. What you should have said is I agree with this. I agree with this as well. The problem I have with your post, is you take examples of the individual failings of a few, and use it to paint our legal system as lacking in much the same way as China and Russia’s. Really???

At least you admit Russia is a repressive state. That’s a start.



NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, November 27, 2015 1:47 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Our local radio station did some of that (rare) investigative reporting on police shootings. One of the systemic problems they ran into was the fact that police departments do not have a uniform requirement for reporting on police shootings. There is, for example, no county-wide, statewide, or national database of police shootings. Why not? Whose interests are being protected by hiding the incidents, and how did this lack of system come about?

... As an aside, thanks to the NRA, there is no national database on gun injuries and deaths. The American Medical Association wanted to require that the stats be collected- from hospital emergency rooms, for example) but the NRA prevailed on Congress to make it illegal...

So, how can you even recognize if there IS a problem, unless you can collect the data?

Another systemic problem is that police departments are typically reviewed by ... themselves! There are almost no citizen commissions which review police actions, and the few remaining efforts (like the leftovers from the Christopher Commission) have been co-opted. There is one thing I know for sure, from a bureaucracy standpoint, is that having any agency police itself is doomed to failure.

So, back to police shootings.

There is one central source of information on LA County police shootings, and that the the LA County District Attorney's Office. Whether the DA decides to prosecute or not (mostly not) they have to write a letter explaining why (or why not). So eventually, all LA County police shooting cases make their way to the DA's Office.

Anyway. I have to go. Later.



--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, November 27, 2015 3:18 PM

WHOZIT


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I guess that's how we treat mental illness and intoxication in the USA.

I really think we need to rethink our whole approach to crime, criminality, and punishment in the USA. We have the highest incarceration rate in the whole world, exceeding China, Russia, and other "repressive" states by a wide margin, and yet we still have a really high crime rate. Why do we keep doing the same thing over and over again, expecting that it will work THIS time, as opposed to the last 100 million times?

Are we incapable of learning?

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.



This has nothing to do with him being nutz or stoned, a half dozen big tuff cops show up and find a skinny kid with a knife. Instead of taking him down with a stun gun or just jumping on him, one evil scumbag shot him 16 times. ALL Chicago cops are not evil, but this one is. One bad apple does not spoil the whole bunch, but it makes the whole bunch look really bad.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, November 28, 2015 4:38 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"ALL Chicago cops are not evil, but this one is. One bad apple does not spoil the whole bunch, but it makes the whole bunch look really bad."

This is where statistics would be really nice, and not only US statistics, but comparative statistics across the developed world. To see how widespread is the problem, how frequent, how often fatal. Because just as one anecdotal incident of one cop doesn't capture the full picture, neither does someone's (yours) anecdotal suppositions about the rest of them. And one country's data can't place where that country fits in the range of data.

(As an aside, I find the lack of BASIC information about a lot of topics to be really, really puzzling. Trying got look up insurance costs and total health-care costs ever since Obamacare came into effect was impossible. The administration MUST have those numbers and be studying them very, very closely. But they're not available to anyone else, at least not online, apparently. And the complete lack of curiosity about evidence for many government claims is another puzzler.)




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, November 28, 2015 8:57 AM

REAVERFAN


The militarization of police has been an ongoing thing. The private for-profit prisons, the blatantly racist judicial system, the "war on drugs," etc., is like our permawars: It makes the right people rich, and they hold all the power.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, November 28, 2015 8:57 AM

REAVERFAN



NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, November 29, 2015 12:16 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


BACK TO THE WHOLE "SYSTEMIC" PROBLEMS VERSUS THE "ONE BAD APPLE" APPROACH

So I decided to make a timeline of all relevant events around this shooting, and the timeline reveals failures of MANY systems. Let me count the ways ...

TIMELINE

Quote:

July 2104 Rahm Emanuel, mayor of Chicago, begins his re-election campaign in a hotly-contested 3-way race between a white (Emanuel), a union-supported Chicano (Jesus "Chuy" Garcia), and a black businessman (Willie Wilson).

October 20 2014 Laquan McDonald is shot 16 times by a Chicago police officer, Jason Van Dyke, and killed.


What a bummer for Mayor Rahm and his race. He needs the black vote. NOW what is he going to do?

Quote:

Police say Laquan McDonald had lunged at officers with a knife.

There were other police officers there who knew the truth. None of them came forward.

Quote:

Nov. 4, 2014 Cook County State's Attorney Anita Alvarez obtains the video and begins investigating the incident.

Dec. 8, 2014 Journalist Jamie Kalven and Craig Futterman, a University of Chicago Law School professor, release a statement calling on Chicago police to release the dashcam video of the incident. Futterman and Kalven had been alerted to the video's existence by a whistleblower, who told them the video was "horrific".

Officer Jason Van Dyke is put on desk duty at full pay.


Chicago PD refuses to release the video. The County DA is still investigating, and so is the PD.

Quote:

Feb 2015 first vote for mayor (no majority)

April 7 2015 runoff election


A lot of Rahm Emanuels campaign money is going to black-community patronage. Emanuel wins.

Quote:

April 2015 The Chicago City Council approves a $5 million settlement with McDonald's family before they even file a lawsuit

Right after Rahm is re-elected, the City Council votes to pay off Laquan's family. Because nothing makes trouble go away like money.

Quote:

March 2015 The Chicago Tribune files three separate Freedom of Information Act requests to Chicago's law department, the police department and the Independent Police Review Authority Board. All three requests are denied.

April 2015 Officials also confirm that the FBI and the U.S. Attorney for the Northern District of Illinois are conducting a criminal probe into Van Dyke.

May 2015 A Burger King district manager tells NBC Chicago that he believes police deleted security footage from the restaurant that captured moments surrounding the incident, which McDonald's family attorney claims would have given some context for the shooting. In a statement at the time, the Independent Police Review Authority Board says it has no credible evidence to believe that police officers deleted footage.


So, what about that Independent Police Review Authority Board? More later.

Quote:

May 26, freelance journalist Brandon Smith files a Freedom of Information Act request with the Chicago Police Department requesting the video, and the department asks him for an extension on his request until late July.


About that Board ...
Quote:

July 25 2015 Chicago Just Fired An Investigator Trying To Hold Cops Accountable For Unjustified Shootings.
The supervisor says he was requested to "change his findings" on three separate occasions. Of several hundred police shooting cases the IRPA has reviewed since its creation, only a few were found unjustified, the Chicago Reader reports. The supervisor complains that the Independent Board - which is a separate Department of the City of Chicago and reports to the City Council- is staffed primarily by civilians with long, close ties to the police department, and is not truly independent


Was this a little pre-emptive housecleaning?

The promised July deadline for the release of the video comes and goes.
The Independent Board gets a little spruced up, and
Officer Jason Van Dyke is still getting full-pay desk duty.

Quote:

August 2015 After Smith's Freedom of Information Act request is denied, he files a lawsuit against the Chicago Police Department to force them to release the video, claiming that the department is simply refusing to do so for public relations reasons. In a piece explaining why he's suing the city, Smith says that CPD told him they had denied at least 15 Freedom of Information Act requests for the footage.


Why is this freelance reported the only one to file a lawsuit to obtain the video's release? Where's the rest of the press? The Chicoago Tribune and the remainder?

Quote:

Nov. 18, 2015 (Wed) The office of Illinois Attorney General Lisa Madigan (D) sends a letter to police saying that they cannot withhold the video, and saying that claims that releasing it would interfere with an ongoing investigation or jeopardize a fair trial are "unsubstantiated." She orders the Chicago PD to release the video no later than Wednesday Nov 25.


And amazingly, HOURS before the mandated release of the video ...

Quote:

Tuesday, Nov 24, 2105 Jason Van Dyke is charged Tuesday with first-degree murder.


And finally ...

Quote:

Nov 25 2015, Freelance reporter Brandon Smith, whose lawsuit over the summer forced release of Laquan McDonald video, is barred from news event


So, what failed...? I guess it's more a question of what DIDN'T fail?

Except for the presence of the dashcam, which did its job admirably, ONE freelance journalist and one judge, the entire system of checks and balances and reviews came crashing down in one giant clusterfuck of interlocking systemic corruption.

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, November 29, 2015 12:28 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


OFFICER INVOLVED ...

Quote:

Lacking official numbers, KPCC journalists decided to compile them independently. Our team obtained summaries from the L.A. district attorney, which investigates every use of lethal force by the county’s 45 law enforcement agencies, and added material from other public records, interviews and other research.

The findings offer the first countywide look at patterns among 375 civilians shot by police officers from 2010-14, offering a starting point for conversation.

For instance, we found that unarmed people make up 25 percent of those shot by law enforcement officers across the county, and that mental health issues factor into a significant number of shootings.



http://www.scpr.org/blogs/inside-kpcc/2015/11/10/18095/officer-involve
d-kpcc-s-investigation-into-police
/

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, November 29, 2015 12:46 PM

WHOZIT


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
BACK TO THE WHOLE "SYSTEMIC" PROBLEMS VERSUS THE "ONE BAD APPLE" APPROACH

So I decided to make a timeline of all relevant events around this shooting, and the timeline reveals failures of MANY systems. Let me count the ways ...

TIMELINE

Quote:

July 2104 Rahm Emanuel, mayor of Chicago, begins his re-election campaign in a hotly-contested 3-way race between a white (Emanuel), a union-supported Chicano (Jesus "Chuy" Garcia), and a black businessman (Willie Wilson).

October 20 2014 Laquan McDonald is shot 16 times by a Chicago police officer, Jason Van Dyke, and killed.


What a bummer for Mayor Rahm and his race. He needs the black vote. NOW what is he going to do?

Quote:

Police say Laquan McDonald had lunged at officers with a knife.

There were other police officers there who knew the truth. None of them came forward.

Quote:

Nov. 4, 2014 Cook County State's Attorney Anita Alvarez obtains the video and begins investigating the incident.

Dec. 8, 2014 Journalist Jamie Kalven and Craig Futterman, a University of Chicago Law School professor, release a statement calling on Chicago police to release the dashcam video of the incident. Futterman and Kalven had been alerted to the video's existence by a whistleblower, who told them the video was "horrific".

Officer Jason Van Dyke is put on desk duty at full pay.


Chicago PD refuses to release the video. The County DA is still investigating, and so is the PD.

Quote:

Feb 2015 first vote for mayor (no majority)

April 7 2015 runoff election


A lot of Rahm Emanuels campaign money is going to black-community patronage. Emanuel wins.

Quote:

April 2015 The Chicago City Council approves a $5 million settlement with McDonald's family before they even file a lawsuit

Right after Rahm is re-elected, the City Council votes to pay off Laquan's family. Because nothing makes trouble go away like money.

Quote:

March 2015 The Chicago Tribune files three separate Freedom of Information Act requests to Chicago's law department, the police department and the Independent Police Review Authority Board. All three requests are denied.

April 2015 Officials also confirm that the FBI and the U.S. Attorney for the Northern District of Illinois are conducting a criminal probe into Van Dyke.

May 2015 A Burger King district manager tells NBC Chicago that he believes police deleted security footage from the restaurant that captured moments surrounding the incident, which McDonald's family attorney claims would have given some context for the shooting. In a statement at the time, the Independent Police Review Authority Board says it has no credible evidence to believe that police officers deleted footage.


So, what about that Independent Police Review Authority Board? More later.

Quote:

May 26, freelance journalist Brandon Smith files a Freedom of Information Act request with the Chicago Police Department requesting the video, and the department asks him for an extension on his request until late July.


About that Board ...
Quote:

July 25 2015 Chicago Just Fired An Investigator Trying To Hold Cops Accountable For Unjustified Shootings.
The supervisor says he was requested to "change his findings" on three separate occasions. Of several hundred police shooting cases the IRPA has reviewed since its creation, only a few were found unjustified, the Chicago Reader reports. The supervisor complains that the Independent Board - which is a separate Department of the City of Chicago and reports to the City Council- is staffed primarily by civilians with long, close ties to the police department, and is not truly independent


Was this a little pre-emptive housecleaning?

The promised July deadline for the release of the video comes and goes.
The Independent Board gets a little spruced up, and
Officer Jason Van Dyke is still getting full-pay desk duty.

Quote:

August 2015 After Smith's Freedom of Information Act request is denied, he files a lawsuit against the Chicago Police Department to force them to release the video, claiming that the department is simply refusing to do so for public relations reasons. In a piece explaining why he's suing the city, Smith says that CPD told him they had denied at least 15 Freedom of Information Act requests for the footage.


Why is this freelance reported the only one to file a lawsuit to obtain the video's release? Where's the rest of the press? The Chicoago Tribune and the remainder?

Quote:

Nov. 18, 2015 (Wed) The office of Illinois Attorney General Lisa Madigan (D) sends a letter to police saying that they cannot withhold the video, and saying that claims that releasing it would interfere with an ongoing investigation or jeopardize a fair trial are "unsubstantiated." She orders the Chicago PD to release the video no later than Wednesday Nov 25.


And amazingly, HOURS before the mandated release of the video ...

Quote:

Tuesday, Nov 24, 2105 Jason Van Dyke is charged Tuesday with first-degree murder.


And finally ...

Quote:

Nov 25 2015, Freelance reporter Brandon Smith, whose lawsuit over the summer forced release of Laquan McDonald video, is barred from news event


So, what failed...?

Hmm...

Van Dyke, who ... 50 seconds into a scene, shoots a young man who is staggering away from him.

The other on-duty police officers, who knew the truth but backed up the false claim that Laquan was "lunging" at them

Rahm Emanuel, who chose to bury the incident rather than address it.

The City Council who paid off Laquan's family without addressing the issue.

Whoever is in charge of the Independent Review Board, for attempting to manipulate the board even more than its already manipulated, by painting one of its members as a "troublemaker" and an "outlier" (Very similar to the LAPD review board.)

The Chicago PD, for refusing multiple times to release the video under FOIA.

Most of the "free press" who sat on their hands after their FOIA requests were denied, instead of filing a lawsuit.

Most especially the District Atty's Office, which dragged its feet until the last POSSIBLE moment, before charging Van Dyke.

--------

The entire Chicago PD-related city and county bureaucracy, from the the Mayor down thru the City Hall, the police officers up thru the PD officialdom, the "free press" thru the Police union, closed ranks. If it had not been for one Uber-using freelance journalist and one judge, none of this wold have come to light. Van Dyke would probably still be on desk duty, and the DA's office would still be dawdling with their charges. Personally, I think everyone involved- from Rahm Emanuel all the way down to the beat cops who closed ranks - should resign. Not gonna happen, tho.



--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.



So the cover up involves the police, city hall and the Chicago press. Smith alone did the job the entire Chicago press should have done, but they were apart of the cover up. Chicago sounds like a great place to leave and stay away from.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

YOUR OPTIONS

NEW POSTS TODAY

USERPOST DATE

OTHER TOPICS

DISCUSSIONS
Russian losses in Ukraine
Mon, March 18, 2024 23:45 - 982 posts
Punishing Russia With Sanctions
Mon, March 18, 2024 23:44 - 496 posts
In the garden, and RAIN!!! (2)
Mon, March 18, 2024 19:27 - 3338 posts
I'm surprised there's not an inflation thread yet
Mon, March 18, 2024 19:09 - 709 posts
Elections; 2024
Mon, March 18, 2024 19:08 - 1982 posts
Grifter Donald Trump Has Been Indicted And Yes Arrested; Four Times Now And Counting. Hey Jack, I Was Right
Mon, March 18, 2024 19:06 - 753 posts
MO AG Suing Large Nationwide Child Sex-slave Trafficker
Mon, March 18, 2024 15:24 - 2 posts
New Peer-Reviewed Research Finds Evidence of 2020 Voter Fraud
Mon, March 18, 2024 15:21 - 7 posts
RCP's No Toss-Up State Map (3-15-2024)
Mon, March 18, 2024 15:19 - 2 posts
Russia Invades Ukraine. Again
Mon, March 18, 2024 08:03 - 6091 posts
Israeli War
Mon, March 18, 2024 01:27 - 31 posts
CNN: Is the US on the brink of another civil war?
Mon, March 18, 2024 01:22 - 1 posts

FFF.NET SOCIAL