REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Hungary's refugee-kicking camerawoman pondering move to Russia...

POSTED BY: KPO
UPDATED: Monday, August 9, 2021 08:42
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Wednesday, October 21, 2015 7:58 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Of course she is...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/camerawoman-fired-for-tripping-ref
ugees-to-sue_56270db0e4b02f6a900e9c68


She's also planning to sue the refugees, and Facebook. Do svidaniya!

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Wednesday, October 21, 2015 10:57 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


So, you're blaming Russia for what a Hungarian says?

Yep.

Of course you are!

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Wednesday, October 21, 2015 11:48 AM

WHOZIT


What ever money she gets I'm sure will be donated to "Trump 2016".

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Wednesday, October 21, 2015 3:16 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by whozit:
What ever money she gets I'm sure will be donated to "Trump 2016".



It doesn't matter what the story is, it's always time to speak negatively about America. It's quite gratifying to see Russian supporters here feeling so insecure about themselves, that they will not defend their love of Russia and instead deny it. That these Russians feel so inadequate that they are always striking out against their betters. It's pretty funny.


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Wednesday, October 21, 2015 10:42 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


THUGGR
Humanitarian. (snicker)

http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=58208&p=5




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Wednesday, October 21, 2015 10:50 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


The Camerawoman Fired For Tripping Refugees Plans To Sue Them -- And Facebook
"It is now a matter of honor."

Nick Visser Reporter, The Huffington Post

Posted: 10/21/2015 01:16 AM EDT | Edited: 10/21/2015 09:15 AM EDT

Petra Laszlo, the Hungarian - must be Russia's fault! camerawoman who drew international ire after footage emerged of her kicking and tripping refugees, may have apologized for her actions, but that isn't stopping her from filing suit.

In an interview with Russian news outlet Izvestia, Laszlo announced her plans to sue one of the individuals she was filmed kicking, and Facebook. - must be Russia's fault! She alleges the social media network failed to remove negative and threatening messages directed towards her, instead banning groups set up to support her actions, according to Mashable and an online translation of the original story.

The man she plans to sue is Osama Abdul Mohsen, a 52-year-old Syrian refugee who fell to the ground on top of his child after Laszlo tripped him. Mohsen has since found a job in Spain at the country's national soccer coaching academy.

Laszlo was fired by her employer, an ultranationalist online TV channel called N1TV, - must be Russia's fault! after the video was first made public. Although N1TV centers around a far-right party that wants all migrants deported, - must be Russia's fault! the station said she "behaved unacceptably," The Associated Press reported.

The camerawoman issued an apology after the video went viral, writing "something snapped in me" during a moment of fear when refugees were running towards her. She's currently facing a criminal case from Hungarian prosecutors and has adamantly denied any racism involved in the incident.

Once that case is wrapped up, Laszlo said she plans - must be Russia's fault! to file the dual suits as "a matter of honor." She accused Mohsen of swapping stories, an act that she claims led to the intense backlash against her.

"He changed his testimony because he initially blamed the police," Laszlo said. "My husband wants - must be Russia's fault! to prove my innocence."

She said - must be Russia's fault! her family may relocate to Russia because they often feel threatened and scared to go outside.- must be Russia's fault!



kpo - before you post something; and 'G' and THUGGER - before you piddle all over yourselves in agreement - it might be useful to see if there's a 'there' there.




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Wednesday, October 21, 2015 11:03 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
THUGGR
Humanitarian. (snicker)
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=58208&p=5



I was wondering whether my responses to GSTRING were causing his bad behavior. This link caused me to go back and look at GSTRING's and THUGR'S posts. Just as an example of how these two behave, here is a brief exchange between GSTRING and MAGON'S (and HEY! I wasn't even involved!)

Quote:

Too funny. You made me spit out my morning coffee.- MAGONS

Starbucks coffee? Are you another bitching hypocrite? Or just another dullard?



Yep, that was GSTRING, behaving like an asshole. I wonder if GSTRING -or KPO or THUGR- ever go back to some of their old threads and feel any sort of shame. Not for their content, but for their behavior.

And yanno what? I doubt it. They were dim-witted trolls back then, and they're still dim-witted trolls. Nothing has changed.

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Thursday, October 22, 2015 8:50 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Signy, kiki, whoever said this incident was "Russia's fault?" Get with it girls. If you weren't so touchy on the subject of Russia being criticised you would be more rational.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Thursday, October 22, 2015 1:28 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Now that you mention it KPO, that's my greatest regret: not having rational, intelligent opposing view points in this thread. It's actually possible to imagine a well informed discussion with pro Russians

Such pro-Russians are hard to find. I've argued with quite a few Russians and Western pro-Russians on another site over the last couple of years, and between here and there I've met only one who was cogent and informed, and didn't just parrot Russian propaganda talking points - "Nazis in Kiev", "genocide in Donbas" and "Maidan coup" etc. A woman who was half Russian and half Serbian, and well travelled. We talked about the constitutionality of the Yanukovich ouster, the extent of the fallibility of Western media and its strength as a system, and she argued that while yes of course Russia was meddling in eastern Ukraine, that it was no different from what the United States would do in a similar situation - and she pointed to CIA sponsored wars in Latin America throughout the Cold War.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Thursday, October 22, 2015 1:36 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:

Now that you mention it KPO, that's my greatest regret: not having rational, intelligent opposing view points in this thread. It's actually possible to imagine a well informed discussion with pro Russians

Such pro-Russians are hard to find. I've argued with quite a few Russians and Western pro-Russians on another site over the last couple of years, and between here and there I've met only one who was cogent and informed, and didn't just parrot Russian propaganda talking points - "Nazis in Kiev", "genocide in Donbas" and "Maidan coup" etc. A woman who was half Russian and half Serbian, and well travelled. We talked about the constitutionality of the Yanukovich ouster, the extent of the fallibility of Western media and its strength as a system, and she argued that while yes of course Russia was meddling in eastern Ukraine, that it was no different from what the United States would do in a similar situation - and she pointed to CIA sponsored wars in Latin America throughout the Cold War.

It's not personal. It's just war.



Meddling yes but annexing and invasion for the purpose of stealing land, I don't think so. Not in the twentieth century.


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Thursday, October 22, 2015 2:44 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


I didn't completely agree with her by any means, but she did have some intelligent, independent thoughts.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Thursday, October 22, 2015 4:11 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
I didn't completely agree with her by any means, but she did have some intelligent, independent thoughts.

It's not personal. It's just war.



It's not hard to find fault with all that's done on the behalf of America by Americans. Still I think the fact that Al-Qaida was able to do what it did on 911 shows that if you bury your head in the sand, and don't try and influence things behind the scenes, it will came back to bite you in the ass. That's an argument for meddling.

Look at Syria. Letting Assad run the country the way he has, has led to real problems in Europe. Then take Iran. We participated in a coup to remove a Democratically elected leader leaving us with the Iran that we have now. Damned if you do damned if you don't.

My problem is with the Russian trolls we have here that only want to bash the U.S. and spread propaganda. If they were honest about their loyalties then I would say they are entitled to their opinions. The fact that they are not is evidence that they are trolling.


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Friday, October 23, 2015 4:06 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


Petra and the Donald deserve each other. Hell, he prolly taught her about suing the victims........typical Trump move.....HA!

;-)


SGG


Quote:

Originally posted by whozit:
What ever money she gets I'm sure will be donated to "Trump 2016".


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Saturday, October 24, 2015 6:11 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


THUGGR
It's quite gratifying to see Russian supporters here feeling so insecure about themselves, that they will not defend their love of Russia and instead deny it.

kpo
Signy, kiki, whoever said this incident was "Russia's fault?"


Apparently kpo can't read. It was THUGGR who posted that for me it was about Russia, which is what I responded to

And then he lies, too "I treat people the way they treat me ... "recruiting" photos of headless children ... If you question Russia, then you must be pro US" When what he actually posts is flamebait, one-sided criticisms of Russia and one-sided support of the west, and statements that if you criticize the US you MUST be pro-Russian.

You can always find upside-down-and-backward land in what passes for kpo's brain. I guess if you swallow as much propaganda as kpo has, it damages your thinking.




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Saturday, October 24, 2015 7:46 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Apparently kpo can't read.

The theme of your post was sarcastically saying everything is 'Russia's fault'. But no one in this thread said that it was.

Quote:

It was THUGGR who posted that for me it was about Russia,

Apparently it's you who can't read. THGRRI said that you deny your love of Russia, which, whether or not that's true, has nothing to do with this incident being Russia's fault.

So still irrational, even when it's been pointed out to you.

Quote:

You can always find upside-down-and-backward land in what passes for kpo's brain. I guess if you swallow as much propaganda as kpo has, it damages your thinking.

This from the person who argues vehemently that neo-Nazi videos are a reliable historical source. You're right that one of us is in 'upside-down-and-backward land', and has a propaganda-addled brain, but it's not me.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Saturday, October 24, 2015 8:24 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"THGRRI said that you deny your love of Russia ..."

Except he was replying about this topic. CONTEXT. Do you know what that is?

" neo-Nazi videos are a reliable historical source"

Never posted that. Please. Find me that quote. Oh that's right, that's yet ANOTHER strawman of yours. You know - we already discussed that. It's a form of dishonesty. So like you to do that, again ...




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Saturday, October 24, 2015 8:53 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


" neo-Nazi videos are a reliable historical source"

Never posted that. Please. Find me that quote. Oh that's right, that's yet ANOTHER strawman of yours. You know - we already discussed that. It's a form of dishonesty. So like you to do that, again ...



C'mon, boy. I'm waiting. Post that link.

You need to be better prepared.




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Saturday, October 24, 2015 9:14 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
THUGGR
It's quite gratifying to see Russian supporters here feeling so insecure about themselves, that they will not defend their love of Russia and instead deny it.

kpo
Signy, kiki, whoever said this incident was "Russia's fault?"


Apparently kpo can't read. It was THUGGR who posted that for me it was about Russia, which is what I responded to

And then he lies, too "I treat people the way they treat me ... "recruiting" photos of headless children ... If you question Russia, then you must be pro US" When what he actually posts is flamebait, one-sided criticisms of Russia and one-sided support of the west, and statements that if you criticize the US you MUST be pro-Russian.

You can always find upside-down-and-backward land in what passes for kpo's brain. I guess if you swallow as much propaganda as kpo has, it damages your thinking.



My theme is not that Russia is always at fault, but instead that you and SIG post as though everything they do is justified while constantly attacking America. I never created a thread bashing Russia until I had enough of the two of you creating threads attacking America.

What I do now is point out the lies you post while trolling for Putin.

P.S. I take great pleasure in doing so


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Saturday, October 24, 2015 9:16 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


" neo-Nazi videos are a reliable historical source"

Never posted that. Please. Find me that quote. Oh that's right, that's yet ANOTHER strawman of yours. You know - we already discussed that. It's a form of dishonesty. So like you to do that, again ...



C'mon, boy. I'm waiting. Post that link.

You need to be better prepared. I'm STILL waiting.




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Thursday, October 29, 2015 9:06 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
" neo-Nazi videos are a reliable historical source"

Never posted that. Please. Find me that quote. Oh that's right, that's yet ANOTHER strawman of yours. You know - we already discussed that. It's a form of dishonesty. So like you to do that, again ...



C'mon, boy. I'm waiting. Post that link.

You need to be better prepared. I'm STILL waiting.


Here you go: http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=59952&p=2

When Signy posted a video on the WWII Dresden bombing from the neo-Nazi website 'Hellstorm' and I called her out on it, you defended the video thus:

1kiki: "You insist on calling facts - archival filmography, direct quotes, historically documented lists of cities bombed - propaganda."

And thus you continue arguing down the thread, referring to the neo-Nazi video as 'factual'.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Friday, October 30, 2015 1:20 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"You insist on calling facts - archival filmography, direct quotes, historically documented lists of cities bombed - propaganda."

Yes indeed, your inability to look at facts is a failing of yours. I appreciate you benefiting my argument by reiterating how poorly you relate to factual material. You disdain historical factual material.

What are you claiming?
Archival filmography isn't factual? What would you call similar films made by the crews that bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Fiction?
What would you call direct quotes that can be verified through many sources by a simple google search? Fantasy?
And what would you call historically documented lists of cities that were bombed, that can also be verified through many sources? Propaganda?


I never suggested you trust any information just because it came from a particular website. I also criticized you for dismissing it for the same reason. I said that you should VERIFY the CONTENT through OTHER sources.

You quoted my support of verifiable historical documentation as if I was telling you to trust a 'source'. Instead, I was telling you that that CONTENT was valuable because it can be researched. But it's an idea so foreign to you, you didn't understand it at all. You treated it with contempt.

BTW - deliberately and repeatedly misrepresenting my posts - makes me wonder if you have any ethics at all. How does it feel to be so deeply dishonorable you have to constantly employ propagandist tactics against others - by misrepresenting their posts, by trying to distract from your inability to address the facts, by attempting to derail the discussion with irrelevancies, by ad hominem attacks, and by irrelevant and multiple attacks over many threads to 'bury' your failures under bullshit - to try to 'win'?

How does it feel to be so deeply dishonest you have to twist reality to try to 'win'? To deny the undeniable fact that OSCE has never encountered Russian troops in Ukraine for example? Or that OSCE UAVs were jammed over Ukrainian territory? Or that Ukrainian troops actively denied access to OSCE inspectors? Those are all facts contained in the OSCE reports. Do you think that if you foam at the mouth enough it'll make those facts go away?

When you do that are you so enraged by your failures you lash out without restraint? Or is it a choice, where you're in control of yourself?

I'm really curious.

I can understand how you might miss fact. But then, you make a point of insisting that your OBVIOUS error was correct ... and doing that over ... and over, and over ... and then engaging in those tactics I pointed out - to the point where, frankly, you start to look like either you're unhinged, or deeply morally disturbed.





SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Friday, October 30, 2015 5:04 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


Bottom line: This woman, and I use the term loosely, is a despicable cow who has no regard for human life. Whether she goes to Russia, or not, has no bearing on her sick behavior.

She should go to Russia and be sent to Siberia for all I care.


SGG

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Friday, October 30, 2015 5:27 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

How does it feel to ... To deny the undeniable fact that OSCE has never encountered Russian troops in Ukraine for example? Or that OSCE UAVs were jammed over Ukrainian territory? Or that Ukrainian troops actively denied access to OSCE inspectors? Those are all facts contained in the OSCE reports. Do you think that if you foam at the mouth enough it'll make those facts go away?
That seems to be KPO's MO, so I'd have to vote "yes" in KPO's case.

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Friday, October 30, 2015 1:00 PM

THGRRI


G, 1kiki's mental health short comings include some sort of transference. She clams it is her opponent that's doing what she is doing. I'm sure there are a few other psychoses there as well, but transference, and pathological liar are definitely amongst them.


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Friday, October 30, 2015 1:37 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

What are you claiming?
Archival filmography isn't factual?


I pointed out instances where the neo-Nazi propaganda film was NOT factual - where it spliced and combined different quotes to make fake ones, and where it pushed debunked lies. But you seem to think that if a propaganda film gets a few things right, uses some authentic footage, and some accurate quotes, then it's fine for it to make up shit as well?

Quote:

I never suggested you trust any information just because it came from a particular website. I also criticized you for dismissing it for the same reason.

And yet I was right to, and you were wrong to believe it.

Quote:

I said that you should VERIFY the CONTENT through OTHER sources.

Why didn't YOU follow your own advice?

Quote:

To deny the undeniable fact that OSCE has never encountered Russian troops in Ukraine

Dimwit, how would they know? If the soldiers have taken off all insignia, and deny that they are Russian or active service members or both? But you seem to KNOW that this is not the case - in fact you call it 'undeniable'. Care to explain your logic?

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Friday, October 30, 2015 5:17 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by G:
Quote:

Originally posted by THGRRI:
G, 1kiki's mental health short comings include some sort of transference. She clams it is her opponent that's doing what she is doing. I'm sure there are a few other psychoses there as well, but transference, and pathological liar are definitely amongst them.




It's like a reflective transference and everyone's a mirror - that's a frightening prospect. Hmmm... Boomerang Psychosis... naw, needs more work.



Yes but it's a brilliant deduction. Every post 1kiki and SIG make are directed against reflective images of themselves. Their perception is that they are addressing us and what we are posting but, we know they are not. Unfortunately a residual result of that is, the image of the rest of us banging on a door that's never answered and refusing to accept no one is home.



Which psychosis is worse I wonder?


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Saturday, October 31, 2015 12:19 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


I pointed out instances where the neo-Nazi propaganda film was NOT factual ...
No, you didn't. You were upset about the source. In fact you've whined about the source in post after post and over thread after thread. And you criticized other things that were at that source. But you didn't dispute the facts of the film with provable facts of your own. You made unsubstantiated CLAIMS. You CLAIMED that that area of Dresden was a military target, for example. But facts proved you wrong. Again.



But you seem to think that if a propaganda film gets a few things right, uses some authentic footage, and some accurate quotes, then it's fine for it to make up shit as well?

Where did I say that? Was it here? Archival filmography isn't factual?

Here? What would you call direct quotes that can be verified through many sources by a simple google search?

Here? And what would you call historically documented lists of cities that were bombed, that can also be verified through many sources?

Here? I said that you should VERIFY the CONTENT through OTHER sources.


Because honestly, I don't know what you're replying to when you say I think it's OK to 'make things up'. Especially when I posted about verifying the content through other sources again, and again ... and again ... and again ...

You're certainly not replying to my posts. Perhaps you're replying to the voice in your head.

Again.



kiki - To deny the undeniable fact that OSCE has never encountered Russian troops in Ukraine.

kpo - Dimwit, how would they know? If the soldiers have taken off all insignia, and deny that they are Russian or active service members or both? But you seem to KNOW that this is not the case - in fact you call it 'undeniable'. Care to explain your logic?


How is the SMM supposed to know if there're Russians in Eastern Ukraine? The same way your sources know Russians are in Ukraine. Language. Accent. Equipment. Uniforms. Tactics. Training. Overhearing people in a pub.



MEANWHILE remember what you claimed about my posts? You claimed I said THIS: who argues vehemently that neo-Nazi videos are a reliable historical source

Yanno, I'm STILL waiting for you to find me that quote.

GO boy! FETCH!




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Saturday, October 31, 2015 5:21 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


kpo

I just want to point out some of the things you posted that you'd probably rather we all forget.

http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=59952&p=1 and continuing through the thread

What you said about Dresden:
The point of the allied bombing campaigns was generally to degrade the enemy's ability to wage war. Destroy its factories, munitions stores, transport hubs, military facilities etc. Bombing targets were ALWAYS chosen with these things in mind.

What the facts say about Dresden:
In the raid, major industrial areas in the suburbs, which stretched for miles, were not targeted.[8] According to Donald Miller "the economic disruption would have been far greater had Bomber Command targeted the suburban areas where most of Dresden's manufacturing might was concentrated."

And you never actually examined the CONTENT of the Dresden video. You preferred then and still prefer now to characterize it according to its 'source'. Here you are discussing a different video from the one Signy posted - and objection to the 'source'

Another Hellstorm 'documentary', which sums up the website quite well

and objecting to the source again
Go back to your Nazi website

and again
I have nothing to say in response to Nazi propaganda

and again
If it's Nazi propaganda, like what you posted, I won't even bother watching

and again
I stopped watching ... and found the 'Hellstorm' website the video came from

and again
You're going to stand by the accuracy of your Nazi film are you? That's fine. I'm not even going to watch it.

and again
I don't feel comfortable watching neo-Nazi propaganda

and again
Why don't you put forward some evidence that ISN'T neo-Nazi propaganda?

Now here I say you need to examine the content:
You insist on calling facts - archival filmography, direct quotes, historically documented lists of cities bombed - propaganda.
I have an idea. Why don't you address the facts, instead of clinging to your delusions?

But rather than examine the content for veracity, you object to the source, yet again
tell me that ... you're completely happy with it as a source.

So I pointed out that you were discussing an entirely different video from the one Signy posted
Not only do you not discuss Signy's actual post - you substitute an entirely different video.
Now THAT'S a strawman! KUDOS! Goebbels would be proud!

And rather than stick to the topic, you objected to the source, yet again
from the same website, and made by the same people... a neo-Nazi website as a source

and again
Why rely on a source that spews Nazi propaganda?

and again
I'm not going to give a video from a neo-Nazi website the time of day

and again
The production is very slick... Nazi propaganda

and again
video from a neo-Nazi website

and again
Nazi propaganda

and again
The fact that it comes from a neo-Nazi website is not enough for you?

and again
this Nazi video

and again
neo-Nazi websitess

and again
a neo-Nazi website

and again
the video comes from a neo-Nazi source.


Yes, that characterizes your ability to stick to the topic and discuss relevant fact quite nicely. Though for your benefit, I'll have to point out that it means you have no ability to do either.

So when I posted this -
In fact you've whined about the source in post after post and over thread after thread (including this one btw). And you criticized other things that were at that source. But you didn't dispute the facts of the film with provable facts of your own. You made unsubstantiated CLAIMS. You CLAIMED that that area of Dresden was a military target, for example. But facts proved you wrong. Again.
- I think I described you extremely well.



So, when you have to keep engaging in propagandist tactics - what goes through your head? Are you so enmeshed in the game of 'winning' for your 'side' you're driven to do it? Or is it a choice?

And when you lie in a situation where OTHER PEOPLE CAN FIND OUT YOU'VE LIED - for example when you said I did this 'who argues vehemently that neo-Nazi videos are a reliable historical source' - do you have any little qualms ahead of time that people will expose you as a liar?




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Saturday, October 31, 2015 11:09 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


GSTRING, all I got from your post is that KPO said EXACTLY what KIKI said it was. Post after post, whining that the source was a Nazi website.

Now, if there's one thing that I've learned from reading KPO's posts, it's that KPO relies on "sources" to filter the news for him. That also comes up in post after post. and thread after thread, and only a liar would try to refute that. Once a "source" says something that KPO disagrees with (not necessarily lies or errors, just a source that rubs KPO the wrong way) KPO deems it "propaganda" and rejects everything that comes with it.

Curiously, there are "sources" that KPO likes to rely on which are equally specious - Bellingcrap, for example, which has been so wrong so often that it's claims should be taken with an ocean of salt. But it's British, don't you know. From an earnest white guy who shares KPO's prejudices, and so KPO simply refuses to put Bellingcrap on the "propaganda" pile. Just FYI- I've give you two specific examples of where Bellingcrap got it wrong, wrong, wrong:

In Syria, Bellingcrap claimed to have irrefutable evidence that it was the Syrian government that gassed its own people. Man, KPO was all over that, like white on rice. But even AT THE TIME (and I can dig up my olds posts, if you want) I said there was a lot of OTHER evidence to look at that wouldn't be available from analyzing images found on the internet: chemical analysis Sarin residues (stabilizers and contaminants are reliable indicators of manufacture), the remainders of shells, testimony from on the ground, electronic intel, etc etc. AT THE TIME I questioned whether one shell couldn't have been obtained by surreptitious means. AT THE TIME I posted several pictures of the child-victims, which showed the same dead children posed in different locations, and an indication that at least one of the "dead children" was actually just sedated (a dead child being given an injection?) ... indicating that - while the attack was real- the consequences were being stage-managed for Twitter by the terrorists in that area. As it turns out, it's looking more and more like Turkey smuggled the Sarin in, using its terrorist-allies on the ground.

Bellingcrap's claim that Russia manipulated MH17 satellite imagery using Photoshop. Well, professional image analysts say that's a stupid thing to say, because the meta-info in the file would appear even if Russia simply added explanatory test. Here is what Jens Kriese, a German professional image analyst, said

Quote:

That’s an erroneous interpretation. They claim that the metadata shows that the images were processed using Photoshop. Based on that they are concluding it was the clouds that were likely added in order to conceal something. The truth is that the indication of Photoshop in the metadata doesn’t prove anything. Of course the Russians had to use some sort of program in order to process the satellite image for the presentation. They added frames and text blocks in order to explain it to the public. The artifacts which have been identified could be a product of that — or also a product of saving multiple times in JPG format.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Bellingcat says its findings are based on the use of the analysis tool FotoForensic.com, a website.

Kriese: And its founder Neal Krawetz also distanced himself from Bellingcat’s conclusions on Twitter. He described it as a good example of “how to not do image analysis.” What Bellingcat is doing is nothing more than reading tea leaves. Error Level Analysis is a method used by hobbyists.



I'm going to credit Bellingcrap's Higgins with an overabundance of enthusiastic prejudice, not outright deceit. But these MAJOR failures (and there are more than these two) should make one put on gloves and install a shitscreen whenever dealing with Bellingcrap's stream of propaganda. But KPO doesn't classify Bellingcrap's website as "propaganda" because it's just so congenial. A comfy and cozy home, where KPO's assumptions are never questioned, his prejudices never challenged.

I also noticed that Bellingcrap's "conclusions" are dutifully and enthusiastically repeated by The Guardian without ANY apparent attempt to verify whether Bellincrap's claims are reasonable, let alone correspondent with reality. So The Guardian should get a warning label too.

In fact, ALL MEDIA IS SUSPECT. KPO's dependence on some "reliable" sources and his rejection of "propagandist" websites is just plain childish. And DESPITE the fact that he "says" he treats all media as suspect, he still approaches it with the same flawed perspective. I think that's been demonstrated over and over again, too. KPO hasn't changed his fundamentally erroneous approach ... he defends it in this thread ... and if someone calls him on it, that's fine.

--------------
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Saturday, October 31, 2015 12:42 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Just to be pellucidly clear about who said what, and that I've been consistent with KPO

Quote:

SO, you go to a website and you see that they post something that strikes you as being "pro-Hitler", and because they post some items that you don't agree with, you reject everything else they write.- SIGNY

Err, yes...? What do you do when you see something pro-Hitler on a website? Well I guess we know that, you post something from that website on these boards. But what goes through your mind when you see that source praising the Nazis? It doesn't bother you? - KPO

So, you go to a website and you find some articles that contain errors of fact, or which consistently portray an event from a POV, or publish outright lies ... and then you judge (some) authors ... or perhaps the entire website ... to be so contaminated by ideology as to be avoided at all costs. (I guess because it would smirch your intellectual purity?)
Well, I can point to the NYT (which repeatedly and to this day publishes demonstrable lies) and the BBC (which, if nothing else, is biased towards NATO) and bellingcat (which has made such serious errors in regards to both the Syrian gas attack and image analysis of Ukraine as to negate their own conclusions) ... what am I supposed to do, using YOUR yardstick?

Stop reading them? According to you, I should. That's what YOU would do, if you were at all even-handed about your treatment of information sources.

What you fail recognize, apparently, is that ALL information is ideological. ALL media, ALL websites, ALL publications (even scientific ones) start out with assumptions and a specific position from which they view the world. ALL information is limited/ selected, if only by lack of knowledge. Whether it is a specific eyewitness POV (Twitter) or compilation of eyewitnesses (bellingcat) or formal publication (BBC, NYT) or even historical investigation ....

Every single piece of information has already been preselected by the presenter.

(And BTW- eyewitnesses are notoriously unreliable, as are human memories.)

You say that you "know" this, and yet you continue to treat some sources as "suspect" and other sources as sacrosanct (and rely on, and quote liberally and unreservedly, as if they were truth) when in reality you should treat all information with suspicion.

I read a book, a long time ago, called "Man Against Myth" ("It is an instructive, amusing and courageous book whose success is most desirable in public interest."-Albert Einstein) and the point the author makes ... and the point that I have been trying to make over and over .... and apparently failing spectacularly ... is that everyone views the world thru tinted lenses. EVERYONE. The very beginning of the book makes a passionate case for seeing those tints which color our views, and that the hardest myths to uncover are those which are the most comprehensive... because, being universal, they're the hardest to identify.

It's easy for us to see the myths behind Russian publications (Well, maybe not so much for you, since you refuse to read them!) but ... what are the assumptions and myths behind the BBC? What are the myths behind bellingcat? The NYT? Please don't tell me there are none, because there are, and I've pointed out some in this thread already.

I'll go further with bellingcat, because I've pointed out this before in the Syrian gas attack: Images are only PART of the story. They need to be, among other things, reliably authenticated and analyzed, because contending sides are all adept at contaminating the twittersphere, to the point of staging events. There is forensic on-the ground physical evidence ... chemical weapons have trace impurities and stabilizers which reliably rule out manufacturers. There are the physical shells. There is electronic intel. Doctor's exams. Eyewitness testimony to sights, sounds, smells. May I repeat that I pointed this out AT THE TIME?

Bellingcat's assumption - it's foundation myth, if you will- is that it presumes that image analysis ALONE is sufficient to uncover the truth. (Is the founder an avid video-gamer? That's what I'd suspect.) That is EXACTLY where they have failed, to the point that even professional image analysts have stepped forward to discredit bellingcat's methodology. But even with better methodology, bellingcat is ignoring other vital - and perhaps more probative- information. So, bellingcat is limited in what it can provide.

One thing I know for sure- you will NEVER get closer to the truth by holding up your skirts and tiptoeing around things you disagree with. The only thing that you ensure by such behavior is that you'll stay in a zone where nothing new penetrates. As if the world has nothing new to tell you, and you know everything important already.


http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60019


--------------
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Saturday, October 31, 2015 2:05 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:


kpo: I pointed out instances where the neo-Nazi propaganda film was NOT factual
1kiki: No, you didn't.


More lies. Anyone can go and read the thread and see for themselves, but I'll make it easy and repost what I said here. Here are a couple of the lies in the video which I pointed out in the old thread, and you couldn't answer then:

First there was this quote in the video, attributed to Churchill:

"German cities... will be subject to an ordeal the like of which has never been experienced by a country in continuity, severity, and magnitude ... to achieve this end there are no lengths of violence to which we will not go".

This fake 'quote' is made up of two separate Churchill quotes that have been edited and spliced together. Firstly:

"German cities, harbours and centres of war production will be subjected to an ordeal the like of which has never been experienced by any country in continuity, severity or magnitude." -- Churchill, June 2, 1942
http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/policy/1942/420602b.html

And secondly, in a speech about 'Prussian militarism' and 'Nazi tyranny':

"...the twin roots of all our evils - Nazi tyranny and Prussian militarism - must be extirpated. Until this is achieved there are no sacrifices we will not make, no lengths in violence to which we will not go." -- Churchill, September 21, 1943
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1499&dat=19430926&id=u6
kWAAAAIBAJ&sjid=BSMEAAAAIBAJ&pg=4051,4615431&hl=en



So. Two separate speeches, given over a year apart, with two different contexts. Both quotes were edited and then spliced together and presented as just a single, fake quote.

On to lie number 2. The video pushes the infamous myth about Allied pilots 'strafing' of civilians (and zoo animals). Signy was screaming in outrage about this fictional atrocity, until I pointed out that it was an infamous lie. Then even Signy admitted that the strafing claims were bogus, but claimed she didn't get that information from the video (she was hoping that I hadn't watched it) - and so I pointed to the section of the video talking about strafing that she had repeated nearly word for word.

Anyway, this is the section of Wiki that talks about the strafing myth:

Quote:

Historian Götz Bergander, who was himself an eyewitness of the raids, found no reports on strafing for 13–15 February, neither by any of the pilots nor by the German military and police. He asserted in Dresden im Luftkrieg (1977) that only a few tales of civilians being strafed were reliable in details, and all were related to the daylight attack on 14 February. He concluded that some memory of eyewitnesses was real, but that it had misinterpreted the firing in an airfight as being deliberately aimed at people on the ground.[67] In 2000, historian Helmut Schnatz found that there was an explicit order to RAF pilots not to strafe civilians on the way back home from Dresden. He also reconstructed timelines with the result that strafing would have been almost impossible due to lack of time and fuel.[68] Frederick Taylor in Dresden (2004), basing most of his analysis on the work of Bergander and Schnatz, concludes that no strafing took place, although some stray bullets from an aerial dog fight may have hit the ground and been mistaken for strafing by those in the vicinity.


So, here we have 2 undeniable falsehoods in the video that I was able to pick out and expose after skimming through the video. There are likely many more. Are you ready to reject this lying, neo-Nazi video as a trustworthy source yet kiki?

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Saturday, October 31, 2015 2:23 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


And in case anyone is in any doubt about the nature of the website we are talking about, which Signy posted the video from, this is it - http://www.hellstormdocumentary.com/

"Kyle Hunt is an American broadcaster and founder of Renegade Broadcasting, a documentary filmmaker, and a White advocacy activist. His newly-released documentary, Hellstorm (based on historian Thomas Goodrich’s book, Hellstorm: The Death of Nazi Germany, 1944-1947) presents in graphic detail the many heretofore rarely mentioned horrors inflicted upon the German people during and after the Second World War."

This other Hellstorm video gives a good representation of what the website is all about:


(if the video doesn't play use the link to the main Hellstorm website above)

Watch the bit leading up to @1:50 - the point when Hitler comes to power...

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Saturday, October 31, 2015 2:45 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:

MEANWHILE remember what you claimed about my posts? You claimed I said THIS: who argues vehemently that neo-Nazi videos are a reliable historical source

Yanno, I'm STILL waiting for you to find me that quote.



I already did

Quote:

When Signy posted a propaganda video on the WWII Dresden bombing from the neo-Nazi website 'Hellstorm' and I called her out on it, you defended the video thus:

1kiki: "You insist on calling facts - archival filmography, direct quotes, historically documented lists of cities bombed - propaganda."

And thus you continue arguing down the thread, referring to the neo-Nazi video as 'factual'.

http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=59952&p=2



It's not personal. It's just war.

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Saturday, October 31, 2015 3:27 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"who argues vehemently that neo-Nazi videos are a reliable historical source"

"You insist on calling facts - archival filmography, direct quotes, historically documented lists of cities bombed - propaganda."

Because telling you to focus on content - archival filmography, direct quotes, historically documented lists - rather than source is vehement argument in favor of neo-Nazi sources.


I think most people will understand that you're mis characterizing my statement.




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Saturday, October 31, 2015 4:17 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
"You insist on calling facts - archival filmography, direct quotes, historically documented lists of cities bombed - propaganda."



Were you or were you not talking about the neo-Nazi video when you said these words?

Now everyone watch while kiki avoids answering the question...

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Saturday, October 31, 2015 5:33 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


German cities ... will be subjected to an ordeal the like of which has never been experienced by a country in continuity severity and magnitude ... to achieve this end there are no lengths of violence to which we will not go


That was so nice of them to indicate where they spliced phrases together, don't you think? Otherwise one might never know. And so nice of you to do the same thing with your partial quote. OOPS. If you have a problem with that, maybe you need to fix it.

"In fact, I may say as the year advances German cities, harbours and centres of war production will be subjected to an ordeal the like of which has never been experienced by any country in continuity, severity or magnitude."

"...the twin roots of all our evils - Nazi tyranny and Prussian militarism - must be extirpated. Until this is achieved there are no sacrifices we will not make, no lengths in violence to which we will not go."


When Churchill said "German cities, harbours and centres of war production", was he somehow excluding cities? Was he saying that ONLY harbours and centers of war production would be bombed? Or were cities in and of themselves included as targets? Because if 'cities' had been falsely added in as targets and Churchill never said that, I think you'd have a point that the quote was edited to convey a falsehood. But he did say cities were targets. They were in a list of targets, but they were targets. In fact, they were the first target mentioned. So Churchill said that 'cities will be subjected to an ordeal the like of which has never been experienced by a country in continuity severity and magnitude'.

Are we supposed to ignore that? Or are you saying it's ok to target cities, and btw, their civilians?


Now, let me provide more context for the second quote. This is how the news article begins:
Twice on our lifetime and also three times in that of our fathers, they (the German people) have plunged the world into their wars of expansions and aggression. They combine in the most deadly manner the qualities of the warrior and the slave. They do not value freedom themselves, and the spectacle of it in others is hateful to them.

After then saying the fight wasn't against a race but against 'Nazi tyranny and Prussian militarism' he went on to say 'the twin roots of all our evils - Nazi tyranny and Prussian militarism - must be extirpated. Until this is achieved there are no sacrifices we will not make, no lengths in violence to which we will not go.'

It's an important statement on the role of violence Britain had adopted in war. Considering how few statements he made about the topic, it topically belongs together with the first.

This book says this about the subject: (Among the Dead Cities: Is the Targeting of Civilians in War Ever Justified? By A.C. Grayling)
It would I think be too much to claim that RAF Bomber command in semi-autonomous way consciously attempted a kind of Morgenthau plan of its own. But by default, that is exactly what the tendency of massive urban destruction was.

It then goes on to describe the change of air strategy from 'precision' bombing to 'area' bombing (also known as carpet bombing).

It also discusses the change in Churchill's stance about bombing civilians - from his early condemnation of Germans targeting Polish cities as a 'new and odious form of attack' to that stance that 'German cities, harbours ... etc'. He also said this regarding Japan 'it is the duty of those who are charged with the direction of the War to ... begin the process so necessary and desirable of laying the cities and the other military centers of Japan in ashes, for in ashes they must surely lie before peace comes to the world'. And here's another reading of the same theme 'The havoc ... is matched by that wrought on the whole of that guilty organization (Germany) .... there are no ... lengths in violence to which we will not go, to destroy Nazi tyranny and Prussian militarism'. Similar rhetoric was employed by Brendan Bracken, Churchill's Minister for Information 'Our plans are to bomb, burn and ruthlessly destroy in every way available to us the people responsible for creating his war.'

There is a lot more available history regarding Britain's policy of carpet-bombing cities and its justification for doing that. The weight of evidence is that the policy was to intentionally carpet-bomb cities and damn the civilians.

In light of historical facts, the video is fully justified in characterizing the bombing as an intentional policy of violence against civilians.

And that ties the two quotes together - they are accurate, if condensed, quotes made by the same person, about the same topic, espousing the same policies. As an expose of the little-known historical fact that Churchill considered cities a legitimate target and adopted a policy of carpet-bombing them in 1942, the video is historically accurate, and not Nazi propaganda.





SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Saturday, October 31, 2015 5:50 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"who argues vehemently that neo-Nazi videos are a reliable historical source"

"You insist on calling facts - archival filmography, direct quotes, historically documented lists of cities bombed - propaganda."

Because telling you to focus on content - archival filmography, direct quotes, historically documented lists - rather than source is vehement argument in favor of neo-Nazi sources.


I think most people will understand that you're mis characterizing my statement. And I'm repeating this because you're, once again, unable to distinguish between content - which I was addressing - and source, which you seem to think is a replacement for facts and logic.





SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Saturday, October 31, 2015 11:02 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
"You insist on calling facts - archival filmography, direct quotes, historically documented lists of cities bombed - propaganda."



Were you or were you not talking about the neo-Nazi video when you said these words?

Now everyone watch while kiki avoids answering the question...

It's not personal. It's just war.






Happy Halloween everyone.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Sunday, November 1, 2015 1:12 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

And in case anyone is in any doubt about the nature of the website we are talking about, which Signy posted the video from, this is it -


Were we talking about the "nature of the website"???
Well, YOU were. I was talking about the content of the video.

The video that I was talking about was, what? 30 minutes long? You focused on two relatively minor points:

The first was a "misquote" from Churchill. Now, frankly, I think Churchill said EXACTLY that they would target German cities.
The second was whether or not people were strafed. I've spoken with several people who knew Dresden survivors, those survivors had a distinct memory of being strafed, or at least being shot at. Someone specifically said it was P-52s (American) planes that did the strafing. For me, this is still an open question, because now I've seen conflicting evidence which I have not looked into.

But aside from those two points, the video addressed a whole number of points, that:

Dresden was a primarily civilian refugee city.
Its civilian centers were bombed in multiple waves (avoiding the industrial and rail centres).
The subsequent waves targeted open areas where people ran for shelter.
A firestorm was set off which melted, charred, or incinerated the many people who were not initially killed by bomb blast of shrapnel.
Somewhere around 27,000 civilians were killed.
This constitutes a war crime, because targeting and bombing civilian centers was deliberate (it certainly wasn't an accident).

So, all of these points are lies?

I'm not going to answer whatever you choose to post, because while I can (AND HAVE) pointed to "reportage" from Bellingcrap and NYT which should have thoroughly discredited these websites in your mind, no amount of error or lies will ever do that, and no amount of truth elsewhere will ever meet your throughly biased standards.



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You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Sunday, November 1, 2015 7:34 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Anthony Beevor's book on The fall of Berlin is a very interesting read. I can recommend it.

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Monday, November 2, 2015 1:02 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I wanted to add a couple of somethings that I didn't have time to write becauz I have a real life.

KPO- Despite the fact that the NYT and Bellincrap post provable lies and enthusiastic propaganda, despite the fact that I KNOW they post propaganda, guess what? I still read them.

GSTRING. KPO- You two have a LOT in common. Out of video 20-30 minutes in length, KPO, you focus on two points that are so relatively minor compared to the enormity of the topic, that it looks as if you're deliberately trying to either distract yourself or everyone else from the real issue. And GSTRING, despite your numerous protestations that you really do care, really! about people everywhere, the number and focus of your posts indicates otherwise. You can't possibley go back and post-edit the length and breadth of your posts which demonstrates EXACTLY how much you "care".

---------

Oh, hey MAGONS!

Yes, we're still squabbling here on firefly!

How are things going for you? At this end of the Pacific, we're expecting one of the largest el Ninos on record, and hoping that it brings much-needed rain. But at your end of the Pacific, doesn't that mean drought???

And how are you doing otherwise?



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Monday, November 2, 2015 8:50 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

I choose not to be so simple because to me it won't save anyone, and to think so to me points to someone who's doing it purely for ego, self-aggrandisment.
Uh huh.

Which is why whenever the topic [real people really getting killed] comes up, you get exercised about everything but. Like the "dead children" thread, in which your topic of conversation becomes either you or me, and not the issue at hand. Oh BTW, I never said that you "WANTED" to kill people, so thanks for misrepresenting my opinion... again.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=60019&p=2#1
003941


I believe that YOU believe that you're a "nice guy", with nice liberal beliefs about freedom and capitalism. That you just really want to "help" people achieve their dream of peace and democracy (and gay rights). But you fail to acknowledge and accept that your "good intentions" are generating a lot of victims.

I have a different approach, especially for the USA, which seems to assume that it has the right and the duty to "intervene" with anyone, anywhere (militarily, financially, culturally) and has caused untold misery and millions of deaths since WWII. My foreign policy advice would be FIRST, DO NO HARM.

I'm not going to reply to whatever you come up with here. Or in the other thread. You've lost it, my friend.



--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Monday, November 2, 2015 8:51 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

I was talking about the content of the video.

And I was talking about the people that made it.

Quote:

The first was a "misquote" from Churchill. Now, frankly, I think Churchill said EXACTLY that they would target German cities.

Hilarious that both you and kiki are back to vehemently defending your neo-Nazi video - a few posts after kiki loudly denying that she had ever done so.

Quote:

You focused on two relatively minor points:

Ha! You shouted and screamed about the strafing outrage in the opening page of that thread. But now it's 'a minor point'.

Quote:

I've spoken with several people who knew Dresden survivors, those survivors had a distinct memory of being strafed

Oh well that 3rd hand anecdotal evidence changes everything, forget about the well-researched historical studies...

Quote:

So, all of these points are lies?

Give me any propaganda video and I will be able to give you a list of 'factual' information in it. Again you show that you don't understand how propaganda works, and why you are such a sucker for it.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Monday, November 2, 2015 8:57 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

I'm not going to answer whatever you choose to post, because while I can (AND HAVE) pointed to "reportage" from Bellingcrap and NYT which should have thoroughly discredited these websites in your mind,

I've no idea why you keep going on tangential rants about Bellingcat and the NYT, but you should know that I never pay them any attention, I just scroll right past them as with any of your tangential rants about Iraq and WMD, or my signature, etc.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Monday, November 2, 2015 3:40 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


... and how bad that was."

Not until you post-edited. ;-)




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Tuesday, November 3, 2015 1:42 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

That was so nice of them to indicate where they spliced phrases together, don't you think?

Are you joking? I hope you are.

Quote:

When Churchill said "German cities, harbours and centres of war production", was he somehow excluding cities?

Ha. If all you can do is throw out feeble strawmen like this, then you are just crying out to be ignored. Quite obviously my issue with the editing of the quote was the words taken out, not the word left in.

Quote:

As an expose of the little-known historical fact that Churchill considered cities a legitimate target and adopted a policy of carpet-bombing them in 1942

Allied area bombing of German (and Japanese) cities is a little known fact? What??

Quote:

...the video is historically accurate, and not Nazi propaganda.

Oh really? Those fine neo-Nazis at Hellstorm decided to make a historically accurate, factual video about the bombing of Dresden? That was nice of them.

Anyway, thanks for proving my point that you are ready to defend neo-Nazi websites as reliable sources of historical information.

Quote:

This book says this about the subject: (Among the Dead Cities: Is the Targeting of Civilians in War Ever Justified? By A.C. Grayling)

There's an interesting moral discussion to have about the Allied bombing of Germany and Japan, but neither you nor Signy showed much interest when I tried to have it. I guess you were too busy pushing your neo-Nazi video.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Saturday, November 7, 2015 8:13 AM

JAYNEZTOWN


First -
BBC journalist comes clean, says “trust nothing you read or watch”
http://www.thecanary.co/2015/11/06/bbc-journalist-comes-clean-says-tru
st-nothing-read-watch
/
Darvall then hailed the internet as the bastion of real media.

The internet allows us to come to our own conclusions by checking our own facts. We really can’t trust the traditional outlets to do it right or properly.




2
Anti-Terrorist Hacker Group Reveals 40 ISIS Websites Protected by US Tech Firm
https://www.minds.com/blog/view/509442410363760640/anti-terrorist-hack
er-group-reveals-40-isis-websites-protected-by-us-tech-firm

The terrorist organization ISIS, or the Islamic State, is known to promote its activities by exploiting the open nature of the Internet. This includes recruiting through social networks like Facebook and Twitter, and using sites like YouTube to publish propaganda videos.
They also make use of available web services to guard their sites against cyberattacks and hide their locations.
According to information provided by anti-terrorist hacker group GhostSec, close to 40 pro-ISIS websites are using the services of a Silicon Valley company called CloudFlare. CloudFlare is a content delivery network that provides services to speed up websites and render them virtually immune to distributed denial of service, or DDS, cyberattacks that can overload websites to bring them offline.
Among the sites, 34 are for spreading propaganda, 4 are terrorist forums, and 2 offer technical services. A brief perusal of the sites showed they heap praise on ISIS, promote terrorist attacks, and some are used as chatrooms for extremists.



this is from the rightwing barenaked islamblog
Quote:

My story: You have to understand why Hungary decided to build a fence. All throughout the summer, every single day, thousands of Muslims poured in through Serbia and were all shipped to Budapest. We suffered for months, and not once did the EU help us! All they did was criticise, and the people had enough and voted for Viktor Orbán in a national consultation to protect the nation.
I manage a restaurant by Western Railway Station. This building is a historical monument, was built in 1877 by the Eiffel Company. Hundreds of Muslims lined the station, left massive piles of trash everywhere, let their children run around half naked and dig in trash bins. There was a dysentery outbreak in July amongst the migrants. They left vomit and diarrhea on Eiffel Square.
The square was cordoned off and the National Public Health Service came in the early morning, wearing biohazard suits and masks and disinfected everything with undiluted bleach. They repeated this procedure for a week straight, and every single public transport bus, tram, and metro, was also disinfected. After this, the migrants were no longer allowed to travel for free on public transport. They got their own bus which took them around the three various train stations in Budapest.
The sad thing is I had to tell every colleague to keep quiet about the migrants. There were liberal activists and journalists cruising around, one idiot even baked a pink birthday cake for the migrants which was left squashed and uneaten on the floor… if the activists ever got word of something bad our restaurant was doing, they could easily have reported us to the liberal media. This is a horrible feeling, like back in Communism. You don’t know who you can trust, because any stray word could be overheard by the ‘secret police’, and you could be dragged off to be tortured…
Needless to say, the presence of migrants caused incredible dives in our revenue. Guests did not want to come in, migrants would aggressively demand for us to charge their phones. It was a nightmare and I am SO HAPPY that this is finally over! Our streets are beautiful and safe again! I give endless praise to our government and our Prime Minister. He wants order and safety and a good life for his citizens and a good, Hungarian future for children.



what an odd world we live
Merkel, Obama, Cameron....oink, oink! work hard to make Europe a middle east hole called Eurabia

Hungary and Russia fight for Christian identity and European values




Muslims In Germany Take 19 Year Old Pregnant Girl, Stab Her In The Stomach, Then Cover Her Entire Body In Gasoline, Set Her On Fire, And Watch Her Slowly Burn To Death

http://shoebat.com/2015/01/26/muslims-germany-take-19-year-old-pregnan
t-girl-stab-stomach-cover-entire-body-gasoline-set-fire-watch-slowly-burn-death
/

Two men were arrested after a heavily pregnant 19-year-old woman was burned to death in a Berlin wood and one has confessed to the crime, police said Saturday.

One suspect is the ex-boyfriend of the victim and the other is his friend, a police spokeswoman said. Both suspects are also 19.

The victim was stabbed numerous times in the abdomen and burned alive late Thursday in the eastern Berlin district of Adlershof.

Walkers found the body Friday morning near a woodland path when their dog started barking and acting strangely.

The first suspect was arrested a few hours later. The two suspects are charged with murder and termination of a pregnancy.

They are to be brought before a court Saturday.




German Christians Now Have To Change Their Holidays So Muslims Don’t Get Offended
http://www.chicksonright.com/german-christians-now-have-to-change-thei
r-holidays-so-muslims-dont-get-offended
/
According to this, German officials are considering changing the Christian holiday St. Martin’s Day on November 11 because they’re afraid it’ll offend Muslim refugees staying in the country. Schools will be most affected by the change, which will take the holiday and turn it into some generic “festival of lights” thing, rather than use the traditional Christian-themes (I guess calling it Saint Martin’s Day is right out).



some vids






and
















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Saturday, November 7, 2015 8:45 AM

THGRRI



What is it with some parts of Europe and it's refusal to let go of fascism.

"Definition of FASCISM for Kids: a political system headed by a dictator in which the government controls business and labor and opposition is not permitted"

Notice I posted the definition of fascism for children. This is because fascist's are morons.

Fascist: a person who is dictatorial or has extreme right-wing views.

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Saturday, November 7, 2015 10:50 AM

JAYNEZTOWN


Everyone is turning against this "refugee" thing, its not just the extreme right look at the film on youtube of protests, they are young, old, women, children aqll protesting the white of France, Italy, Poland, Germany some in the Euro crowds are Sikh, Kurdish, Thai, some are Arab Christians protesting, some are Atheists, there are young German kids, young French kids, the retired Granny and Granpas, teenagers, all ages.....its not just the far-right anymore the crowds ARE HUGE...all are protesting


So why do Europeans no longer want the expansion of "Sharia Law" and other middle east "culture" on their land

Is it possible to understand why these people don't want the spread of Islamism, they no longer see the benefit of Islamic occupation of non-Muslim lands


but before this de-grades into a democrat vs republican circus, before this becomes another disaster left vs right debate
let's look at facts, lets quote numbers from the news sites
and let us see if Islam and Western Style Democracy can co-exist?

Quote:

We’ve reported in the past on a pernicious piece of legislation known as Bill 59, which is up before the legislature in Quebec and is considered likely to become law. It effectively implements UN Resolution 16/18 in Quebec, criminalizing “the call to hate, demonize, and dehumanize certain groups”. We all know what the “certain groups” will be, and I can guarantee they won’t include any Anabaptists or Amish.

With Justin “Baby Doc” Trudeau now in charge of piloting the Canadian ship of state, we can also expect that Bill 59 will eventually be extended to the entire Canadian commonwealth and become the law of the land. Like the Human Rights Commissions, only statutorily-based.

Vlad Tepes, who lives in Ottawa just a stone’s throw from Modern Multicultural Quebec, is considering possible workarounds in anticipation of the day when government agencies start blocking certain websites. Below are excerpts from his post about virtual private networks:
http://gatesofvienna.net/2015/11/gagged-in-quebec-and-beyond/


http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/05/07/concerns-of-muslim-
immigration-surge-into-western-world-come-into-focus
/
A report derived from information from the 9/11 Commission and the Center for Immigration Studies validates Horowitz’s concerns. The study revealed that, out of 94 foreign-born terrorists operating inside the United States, 59 of them committed immigration fraud before or during terrorist activity.

Census data reveals roughly 100,000 Muslim immigrants are admitted to the United States each year. Immigrants who enter the U.S. legally are entitled to welfare, U.S. jobs and to vote.

Horowitz warns that the increasing Muslim population, coupled with President Obama’s unwillingness to identify Islamic extremism, creates a national security threat.
Quote:



Living Apart Together: British Muslims and the paradox of multiculturalism, survey of British Muslims, by the conservative think-tank Policy Exchange, Jan 2007. Authored by Munira Mirza.

37 percent of young British Muslims want Sharia law in Britain.
36 percent of young British Muslims think apostates should be killed.
13 percent of young British Muslims said they "admired" Al Qaeda


Survey of British Muslims, Channel 4, Aug 2006 (also here)
http://markhumphrys.com/islam.uk.html




36 percent said they wanted Sharia law in the UK.
Half said British people who insult Islam should be arrested and prosecuted.


http://www.pewglobal.org/2006/06/22/ii-the-rift-between-muslims-and-th
e-west-causes-and-consequences
/
With just a few exceptions, there is broad public awareness of the dispute over publication of cartoons with the image of the prophet Muhammad. In most populations surveyed, more than 80% had heard of the controversy, and this figure rises to more than 90% in Jordan, Egypt, and among Muslims in Great Britain, Germany and France. But in the U.S., just 65% had heard of the dispute, and in China only 23% were aware of the issue.

By wide margins, Westerners who had heard of the controversy believe that Muslim intolerance is principally to blame for the controversy, while Muslims, by even more lopsided majorities, see Western disrespect for the Islamic religion as the root of the problem. The clashing points of view are seen clearly in Nigeria, where 81% of Muslims blame the controversy on Western disrespect and 63% of Christians say Muslim intolerance is to blame.
Quote:


81% of Egyptians want strict Sharia imposed in every Islamic country
76% of Pakistanis want strict Sharia imposed in every Islamic country
49% (plurality) of Indonesians want strict Sharia imposed in every Islamic country
76% of Moroccans want strict Sharia imposed in every Islamic country


35% of young Muslims in Britain believe suicide bombings are justified (24% overall).
42% of young Muslims in France believe suicide bombings are justified (35% overall).

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/opinion-polls.htm
41% of Pakistanis approve of attacks on Americans
38% of Moroccans approve of attacks on Americans
83% of Palestinians approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (only 14% oppose)
42% of Turks approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (45% oppose)

Only 7% of British Muslims think of themselves as British first (81% say 'Muslim' rather than 'Briton')
46% of Muslims in Germany hope there will eventually be more Muslims than Christians in Germany.

83% of Pakistanis support stoning adulterers
78% of Pakistanis support killing apostates


NOP Research: Hardcore Islamists comprise 9% of Britain’s Muslim population;
Another 29% would “aggressively defend” Islam;

Pew Research (2010): 84% of Egyptian Muslims support the death penalty for leaving Islam
86% of Jordanian Muslims support the death penalty for leaving Islam
30% of Indonesian Muslims support the death penalty for leaving Islam
76% of Pakistanis support death the penalty for leaving Islam
51% of Nigerian Muslims support the death penalty for leaving Islam

http://freethoughtblogs.com/taslima/2013/08/03/unfortunately-a-large-n
umber-of-muslims-support-terrorism911womens-oppressionsharia-lawshonor-killings
/

Quote:

religious fundamentalism is not a marginal phenomenon within West European Muslim communities. Almost 60 per cent agree that Muslims should return to the roots of Islam, 75 per cent think there is only one interpretation of the Koran possible to which every Muslim should stick and 65 per cent say that religious rules are more important to them than the laws of the country in which they live. Consistent fundamentalist beliefs, with agreement to all three statements, are found among 44 per cent of the interviewed Muslims
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Muslim_Statistics_-_Shariah



Sam Harris like Bill Maher and Dawkins is another of those Liberal Atheists - he calls out Islamism

Quote:

While liberals should be the ones pointing the way beyond this Iron Age madness, they are rendering themselves increasingly irrelevant. Being generally reasonable and tolerant of diversity, liberals should be especially sensitive to the dangers of religious literalism. But they aren’t.
http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/response-to-controversy



and Europeans are "Fascists" because they don't want this religious barbarism spreading on their lands?

Quote:


“I’m a proud liberal. I’ve been trying to convince liberals, some of them, that they need to go back to school on this issue of Islam and what it means to be a liberal,” Maher said in an interview with Hawaii Rep. Tulsi Gabbard. “And you, I think, are on the same page.”


Democratic Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard said it’s “crazy” because it’s important to “identify our enemy so that we can defeat them.” She said it’s ridiculous to blame poverty or thrill-seeking because just giving someone a house won’t solve the problem.

http://redpilltimes.com/bill-maher-and-democratic-congresswoman-tulsi-
gabbard-blast-obama-on-his-support-for-islamic-extremism-video
/


Bill Maher brought up how sensitive liberals are about the mere suggestion that certain Islamic beliefs are considered “barbaric” in the Western world. Gabbard agreed that this kind of liberal philosophy “gets in the way” of being able to address serious matters.

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Tuesday, November 10, 2015 9:08 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.



kiki - That was so nice of them to indicate where they spliced phrases together, don't you think?
kpo - Are you joking? I hope you are.

Apparently, words ... hell, comprehension, logic and maybe even sanity ... have failed kpo.

kiki - When Churchill said "German cities, harbours and centres of war production", was he somehow excluding cities?
kpo - Ha. If all you can do is throw out feeble strawmen like this, then you are just crying out to be ignored. Quite obviously my issue with the editing of the quote was the words taken out, not the word left in.

Aside from being completely confused as to what constitutes a strawman, he can't show how the words taken out would have substantially changed the facts as outlined by the condensed quote. Not even AFTER I provided him the FULL context of the quotes. So, kpo has again failed to offer an argument using logic based on evidence.

kiki - As an expose of the little-known historical fact that Churchill considered cities a legitimate target and adopted a policy of carpet-bombing them in 1942
kpo - Allied area bombing of German (and Japanese) cities is a little known fact? What??

A substantial minority of people in the US may understand that the US bombed Japanese civilians. Not many know that Churchill's policy was to bomb German civilians. Churchill's policy of bombing German civilians is the point of the video. US policy about the Japanese is beside the point.

kiki - ...the video is historically accurate, and not Nazi propaganda.
kpo - Oh really? Those fine neo-Nazis at Hellstorm decided to make a historically accurate, factual video about the bombing of Dresden? That was nice of them.

And here he resorts to discussing source - and carries it further into ad hominem - rather than discussing the facts.

kpo - Anyway, thanks for proving my point that you are ready to defend neo-Nazi websites as reliable sources of historical information.
And here he resorts to discussing source - and carries it further into ad hominem - rather than discussing the facts.

kiki - This book says this about the subject: (Among the Dead Cities: Is the Targeting of Civilians in War Ever Justified? By A.C. Grayling)
kpo - There's an interesting moral discussion to have about the Allied bombing of Germany and Japan, but neither you nor Signy showed much interest when I tried to have it. I guess you were too busy pushing your neo-Nazi video.

And rather than discuss the actual topic he claims he wants to discuss, he throws out more ad hominems and runs off.




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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