REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Father Of "Drowned Syrian Boy" Was People Smuggler

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Friday, July 1, 2016 13:53
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Saturday, September 12, 2015 12:08 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

To a certain extent, the old adage “out of sight, out of mind” is unavoidable for anyone, but we don’t think it’s an exaggeration to say that Western society and especially the American public, exhibit a generalized ignorance to events taking place beyond their borders that’s completely out of synch with the degree to which most Westerners have easy access to information. That is, if the US public cared to know what was going on outside of suburbia and beyond the Starbucks drive-throughs and the strip mall Targets they most certainly could find out, but that would likely mean discovering all manner of really inconvenient and often disturbing things and so, at the end of the day, willful ignorance allows everyone to perpetuate the myth that everything is fine.

For its part, the media is more than happy to expose harsh realities as long as they’re conducive to ratings so, for instance, “unarmed black teen shot 18 times by angry white police officer” works well, while “Syria’s bloody civil war continues unabated” does not because to the largely ignorant public, Syria might as well be Mars and if for some inexplicable reason, life or death ended up coming down to being able to correctly identify Syria on an unlabeled map, well, it would be time to start praying.

Sometimes, however, the media stumbles across or, more likely, is fed an image or a series of images that are so indelible that they’re forced to run them, and the public consciousness is, if but for a fleeting moment, jarred out of its perpetual stupor.

That’s what happened in 2013 when YouTube videos appeared to show the victims of a so-called “gas attack” that Bashar al-Assad decided, apparently out of the clear blue sky, to launch on his own people even though were the story true, it would seem to have been a rather peculiar strategy given that the strongman was fully aware that the US was just waiting on an excuse to launch a few cruise missiles. Then, a little more than two years later, we got another example of imagery powerful enough to focus the public’s attention on a far-away civil war when the body of a drowned toddler washed up on a beach in Turkey.

And even though connecting the proverbial dots isn’t something everyday Westerners are particularly adept at, it wasn’t too difficult for the media to paint the picture:
1) drowned toddler was a refugee,
2) there’s a refugee crisis thanks largely to a war going on in a place called Syria which isn’t on Mars but is in fact in the Middle East,
3) this place called Syria is where ISIS is,
4) the Russians are there too.

It would be difficult to come up with a narrative more conducive to rallying public support for an invasion if you were trying. And indeed, maybe someone was trying, because as Reuters reports, the drowned child’s father might not have been a fleeing migrant after all, but rather a people smuggler and Aylan might have been on the boat not because his family intended to save their child from the horrific violence escalating daily in Syria, but rather because profiting off of other people’s misery was his father’s chosen profession and he often brought his family along for the ride. Reuters has the story, excerpts from which are presented below.

Via Reuters:

The father of drowned Syrian toddler Aylan Kurdi was working with smugglers and driving the flimsy boat that capsized trying to reach Greece, other passengers on board said, in an account that disputes the version he gave last week.

Ahmed Hadi Jawwad and his wife, Iraqis who lost their 11-year-old daughter and 9-year-old son in the crossing, told Reuters that Abdullah Kurdi panicked and accelerated when a wave hit the boat, raising questions about his claim that somebody else was driving the boat.

A third passenger confirmed their version of events, which Reuters could not independently verify.

"The story that (Aylan's father) told is untrue. I don't know what made him lie, maybe fear," Jawwad said in Baghdad at his in-laws' house on Friday. "He was the driver from the very beginning until the boat sank."

He said Kurdi swam to them and begged them to cover up his true role in the incident. His wife confirmed the details.

Jawwad said his point of contact with the smugglers was called Abu Hussein. "Abu Hussein told me that he (Kurdi) was the one who organized this trip," he said.

Amir Haider, 22, another Iraqi who said he was on the same boat, confirmed Jawwad's account and identified Kurdi as the driver. He told Reuters by telephone from Istanbul that he initially thought Kurdi was Turkish because he was not speaking, but later heard him talking to his wife in Syrian Arabic.

A photo of Aylan Kurdi's body in the surf off a popular Turkish holiday resort prompted sympathy and outrage at the perceived inaction of developed nations in helping thousands of refugees using dangerous sea-routes to reach Europe, many of whom have fled Syria's four-year civil war.


And more from The Daily Telegraph:

The father of the three-year-old boy whose lifeless body washed up on a Turkish beach, rocking the whole world to its core, has been accused of being a people smuggler who captained the fateful voyage.

A woman who lost two of her three children on the vessel made the stunning claims to Network Ten via her cousin, who lives in Sydney, on Friday night.

It was claimed on Friday night that his ­father Abdullah was a people smuggler who captained the dodgy boat for its entire voyage, capsizing in heavy seas and killing at least 12 people.

Iraq-based Zainab Abbas, via her Sydney-based cousin Lara Tahseen, told Ten News she paid $10,000 for the voyage and Aylan’s father was in charge of the boat.

“He was a smuggler, yes, he was the one driving the boat,’’ she said.

She claimed a separate people smuggler to whom they paid the money had told them the captain was taking his own children on the voyage.

“He said ‘don’t worry, the captain of the boat, the driver, is going to bring his two kids and his wife,” she said.

The woman claimed the boat was travelling faster than its capabilities and had too many desperate asylum seekers on board.

The family of five was told there would only be six on the boat but when they got on there were 14.

“He was going crazy, like speed,” she said. “He was the one driving the boat right from the start. When they set off five minutes in he was looking left and right, worried, then he was speeding. Even his wife was screaming at him to slow down,” she said.

Ms Tahseen said when the family arrived in Istanbul they phoned a number they were told was Mr Kurdi’s but another man answered.

They paid this man the money and he told them when they arrived at the island they were heading for, on which they would move to another boat to go to Greece, to phone him.

He and Mr Kurdi would then split the money, Ms Tahseen claimed. The trip was only supposed to take 15 minutes.


Now obviously, what happened to Aylan (and to an untold number of other refugees fleeing the Mid-East) is a tragedy and whether or not his father was the man driving the boat and profiting from the refugee crisis or was in fact a victim fleeing war like everyone else doesn’t change that (and in many ways, if the above account is true, Aylan's fate is actually even more tragic), but what is does change is the narrative being fed to the public.

It also seems - again, assuming the story outlined above is accurate - that it's possible Kurdi brought his family on the trip in order to make those paying him for the ride more confident in his ability to get them from Turkey to Greece safely. "If I was a people smuggler, why would I put my family in the same boat as the other people?" Kurdi asked MailOnline.

That's a good question, but one (admittedly macabre) explanation is that it was a kind of people smuggling marketing ploy, something along the lines of this: "you know you can trust me because I have my own family on board." A less conspiratorial take on that theory would be that he did intend to get his family out of the Mid-East and so he simply overloaded the boat because the collective safety of the passengers was secondary to getting his family out of harm's way, but even if that's the case, the exact opposite ended up happening because by putting too many people on the boat, he inadvertently doomed Aylan, and besides, anyway you look at it, he was looking to make $5,000 off of the other passengers' desperation.

Coming full circle, the greatest tragedy here is that the entire episode will be used as an excuse to drop still more bombs on Syria and eventually to justify a ground invasion and because the public can't see past the various smokescreens being employed here, Americans and Europeans will end up tacitly accepting the patently ridiculous idea that the best way to stem the flow of refugees is to bomb the place from which the refugees are fleeing.

Of course the entire thing is made even more absurd by the verifiable fact that it was the West which destabilized Syria in the first place meaning Washington along with its European allies are now set to use a massive refugee crisis of their own making to create a still more massive refugee crisis by effectively doubling down on efforts to destabilize the country on the way to ousting Assad. And with that bolded passage in mind, we bring you what is quite possibly the most ironic statement to ever come from the mouth of a sitting US president:

Obama on Friday: "We are going to be engaging Russia to let them know that you can’t continue to double down on a strategy that’s doomed to failure in Syria."


http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-09-12/media-propaganda-full-frontal
-father-drowned-syrian-boy-was-people-smuggler



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Thursday, October 8, 2015 1:54 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


More children continue to drown trying to make treacherous sea voyage to Europe - 44 last month.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34479482

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Friday, October 9, 2015 11:22 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Before there were children drowning in the sea, there were dead children in Afghanistan




In Iraq





(Soon to be dead)

http://thewe.cc/thewei/&_/images8/iraq/dead_child_us_invasion_2003
.jpe


(beheaded by ISIS)

.... Libya


.... Palestine



Syria ....


gas attack by jihadists


Ukraine ....




Who ignited and fed this clusterfuck, anyway?

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Friday, October 9, 2015 11:45 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Thanks for the gratuitous dead-child images Siggy.

Quote:

Who ignited and fed this clusterfuck, anyway?

Well that's a good thing to ask. Afghanistan's decades long descent into violence and barbarity began with the USSR's bloody invasion of that country.

Iraq's violence was triggered by an idiotic and calamitous war led by George W Bush.

Syria's violence was triggered by a barbaric regime (backed by Russia) with its crackdown on peaceful, popular, pro-democratic protests.

In Iraq and Syria's cases, inbuilt sectarian tensions were established by the clumsily drawn borders of imperial countries Britain and France - creating countries that herded people from different tribes, ethnicities and religions together.

Different wars in different parts of the world, with different backgrounds and causes. Of course in your mind all of this war and dvastation were caused single-handedly by one entity - the USA aka Mordor aka The Great Satan. It must be comforting to have such a simplistic understanding of such a complex world.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Saturday, October 10, 2015 2:32 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Thanks for the dead-child images Siggy.
You're welcome. Unlike the picture of the drowned Syrian toddler, which was gratuitously repeated ad infinitum, they tend not to show up in western media. I'm glad that you appreciate an unbiased view of the victims.

Quote:

Who ignited and fed this clusterfuck, anyway?-SIGNY
Well that's a good thing to ask. Afghanistan's decades long descent into violence and barbarity began with the USSR's bloody invasion of that country.


Yes, those horrible Soviets, building roads and schools and airports, forcing equality on women - graduating women doctors and lawyers and allowing them to think they might actually make something of themselves!

Good thing that USSA supplied shoulder-fired missiles to the religious fanatics and oppressors of women, including Osama bin Laden! Thank goodness we saved Afghanistan from the Soviets and steered them back into their 12th century civilization! And THEN ... post 9-11 ... we bombed them even further back in time! Good for them! Hooray for us!

Quote:

Iraq's violence was triggered by an idiotic and calamitous war led by George W Bush.
Twice. Don't forget Bush the Elder, who used Iraq against Iran. Gave Saddam there wherewithal to make chemical weapons, and supplied him with "ground truth" to let him know how effective those weapons were!

Quote:

Syria's violence was triggered by a barbaric regime (backed by Russia) with its crackdown on peaceful, popular, pro-democratic protests.
And propelled by .... the Turks, Saudis and Qataris funneling - literally- hundreds of millions of dollars, tons of weapons, and tens of thousands of jihadists and mercenaries into Syria.

And let's not forget Libya. (Which you seem to have.)

Quote:

Of course in your mind all of this war and dvastation were caused single-handedly by one entity - the USA aka Mordor aka The Great Satan. It must be comforting to have such a simplistic understanding of such a complex world.
It must be comforting to have such a complex view of such a simple problem ... a view which absolves the USA and its regional allies (Saudi Arabia, Israel, Turkey, and the GCC) of any responsibility.


--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Saturday, October 10, 2015 2:48 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Pundits and politicians are already looking for a convenient explanation for the twin Middle East disasters of the rise of Islamic State and the humanitarian catastrophe in Syria.

The genuine answer is politically unpalatable, because the primary cause of both calamities is U.S. war and covert operations in the Middle East, followed by the abdication of U.S. power and responsibility for Syria policy to Saudi Arabia and other Sunni allies.

The emergence of a new state always involves a complex of factors. But over the past three decades, U.S. covert operations and war have entered repeatedly and powerfully into the chain of causality leading to Islamic State’s present position.

The causal chain begins with the role of the U.S. in creating a mujahedeen force to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan in the 1980s. Osama bin Laden was a key facilitator in training that force in Afghanistan. Without that reckless U.S. policy, the blowback of the later creation of al-Qaida would very likely not have occurred.

But it was the U.S. invasion and occupation of Iraq that made al-Qaida a significant political-military force for the first time. The war drew Islamists to Iraq from all over the Middle East, and their war of terrorism against Iraqi Shiites was a precursor to the sectarian wars to follow.

The actual creation of Islamic State is also directly linked to the Iraq War. The former U.S. commander at Camp Bucca in Iraq has acknowledged that the detention of 24,000 prisoners, including hard-core al-Qaida cadres, Baathist officers and innocent civilians, created a “pressure cooker for extremism.”

It was during their confinement in that camp during the U.S. troop surge in Iraq 2007 and 2008 that nine senior al-Qaida military cadres planned the details of how they would create Islamic State.

The Obama administration completed the causal chain by giving the green light to a major war in Syria waged by well-armed and well-trained foreign jihadists.

Although the Assad regime undoubtedly responded to the firebombing of the Baath Party headquarters in Daraa in mid-March 2011 with excessive force, an armed struggle against the regime began almost immediately.

In late March or early April, a well-planned ambush of Syrian troops killed at least two dozen soldiers near the same city. Other killings of troops took place in April in other cities, including Daraa, where 19 soldiers were gunned down.

During the second half of 2011 and through 2012, thousands of foreign jihadists streamed into Syria. As early as November 2011, al-Qaida was playing a central role in the war, carrying out spectacular suicide bombings in Damascus and Aleppo.

Obama should have reacted to the first indications of that development and insisted that Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Qatar keep external arms and military personnel and funding out of Syria in order to allow a process of peaceful change to take place. Instead, however, the administration became an integral part of a proxy war for regime change.

Seymour Hersh reported last year that an unpublished addendum to the Senate Intelligence Committee report on Benghazi revealed a covert CIA operation to arm Syrian rebels, in cooperation with Sunni allies’ intelligence services.


In early 2012, Hersh reported, following an agreement with Turkey, then-CIA Director David Petraeus approved an elaborate covert operation in which Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Qatar would fund the shipment of weapons to Syrian rebels from stocks captured from the Gadhafi government.

The scheme employed front companies set up in Libya to manage the shipments of arms in order to separate the U.S. government from the operation. An October 2012 Defense Intelligence Agency report released by the Department of Defense to Judicial Watch confirmed the shipments of Libyan weapons from the port of Benghazi to two Syrian ports near Turkey beginning in October 2011 and continuing through August 2012.



The part that's not mentioned is that France, the USA, and other willing western participants went well beyond the UN-allowed establishment of a "no fly" zone to outright air support of "rebels" on the ground - "rebels" which were known to be jihadists, supplied with over 70 planeloads (clocked thru Turkish airports) and several boatloads of weapons by Qatar and Saudi Arabia. Those jihadists which didn't shift to Syria scattered to Mali, Tunisia etc to form even more wahhabi-nut-case groups elsewhere.

This sounds very much like a precursor to Syria: fund, arm, and train known jihadists, all the while telling the public that these are "moderate" "freedom-loving" rebels.

Quote:


A larger covert program involved a joint military operations center in Istanbul

WHich is also a major purchaser of illegal ISIS oil
Quote:

, where CIA officers worked with Turkish, Saudi and Qatari intelligence agencies that were also providing arms to their favorite Syrian rebels groups, according to sources who talked with The Washington Post’s David Ignatius.

By November 2012, al-Qaida’s Syrian franchise, al-Nusra Front, had 6,000 to 10,000 troops—mostly foreign fighters—under its command and was regarded as the most disciplined and effective fighting force in the field.

The CIA’s Gulf allies armed brigades that had allied themselves with al-Nusra—or were ready to do so. A Qatari intelligence officer is said to have declared, “I will send weapons to al-Qaeda if it will help” topple Assad.

The CIA officials overseeing the covert operation knew very well what their Sunni allies were doing. After the U.S. shipments from Benghazi stopped in September 2012 because of the attack on the U.S. diplomatic post there, a CIA analysis reminded President Obama that the covert operation in Afghanistan had ended up creating a Frankenstein monster.

Even the now-famous account in Hillary Clinton’s 2014 memoirs about Obama rejecting a proposal in late 2012 from CIA Director Petraeus for arming and training Syrian rebels does not hide the fact that everyone was well aware of the danger that arms sent to “moderates” would end up in the hands of terrorists.

Despite this, after rejecting Petraeus’ plan in 2012, Obama approved the covert training of “moderate” Syrian rebels in April 2013. As the Pentagon has been forced to acknowledge in recent weeks, that program has been a complete fiasco, as the units either joined al-Nusra or were attacked by al-Nusra.

Meanwhile, as Vice President Joe Biden pointed out in October 2014, Turkey, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates were pouring “hundreds of millions of dollars and tens, thousands of tons of weapons” into Syria that were ending up in the hands of the jihadists.

Unfortunately, Biden’s complaint came two and a half years too late. By October 2014, more than 15,000 foreign fighters, including 2,000 Westerners, were estimated to have gone to Syria. Islamic State and al-Nusra Front emerged as the two major contenders for power in Syria once Assad is overthrown, and the Saudis and Qataris were now ready to place their bets on al-Nusra.

In early 2015, after King Salman inherited the Saudi throne, the three Sunni states began focusing their support on al-Nusra and its military allies, encouraging them to form a new military command, the “Army of Conquest.” The al-Nusra-led front then captured Idlib province in March.

Obama, focusing on the Iran nuclear agreement, has given no indication that he is troubled by his allies’ approach. If the Bush administration destabilized Iraq in order to increase U.S. military presence and power in the Middle East, the Obama administration has countenanced a proxy war that has destabilized and Syria because of his primary concern with consolidating the U.S. alliances with the Saudis and the other Sunni regimes.

Although it has been almost a rigid rule that pundits must ascribe U.S. fealty to its Saudi alliance to oil interests, oil is far from the top of the list of U.S interests today. More important to our national security state is the interest of the Pentagon and the military services to protect the military bases they have in Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Qatar, Kuwait and the UAE.

Their need to preserve those alliance relationships is intensified by the Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC) cornucopia of military contracts for U.S. arms manufacturers that assures enormous profits will continue to flow for the foreseeable future. One estimate of the total at stake for the Pentagon and its private allies in military relationships with the GCC is $100 billion to $150 billion over two decades.

Those are crucial bureaucratic and business stakes for the U.S. national security state, which is usually driven by the bottom lines associated with different courses of action. Especially given the administration’s lack of a coherent geopolitical perspective on the region, the security state’s interests offer a persuasive explanation for Obama’s effectively farming out the most important element of its Syria policy to regional allies, with disastrous results.



--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Saturday, October 10, 2015 2:38 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I suppose one outcome to hope for is that the current Turkish President, Tayyip Erdogan, will crash and burn in upcoming elections. Erdogan was viewed as a moderate modern Muslim, his focus being on modernizing the economy with large infrastructural projects such as the Deriner Dam and Marmaray Tunnel (a 10-km underwater link across the Bosphorus Straight, kind of like the Chunnel but shorter)

However, in recent years Erdogan has been allying with the jihadists, with dreams, apparently, of getting rid of Assad and perhaps taking advantage of a Qatar/Syria gas pipeline, and rebuilding the Ottoman Empire.

Everyone wants to have a caliphate, it seems!
Sigh.

Just this past July, Erdogan broke a peace deal with the Turkish Kurds (who make up a significant minority in Turkey and elsewhere). Since then, his party is suffering in the polls, failing to win a majority of seats in Parliament and unable to form a coalition. From the outside, it looks like Erdogan's gamble failed to pay off, since he pissed off the Russians (who might cancel the Turkish Stream pipeline), still has to deal with Assad (so far), and now has wahhabi extremists setting off suicide bombs against peacefully-demonstrating Kurds and liberals. Fingers crossed that Erdogan - who is as crooked as a dog's kind leg- get crushed in the elections.

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Monday, October 12, 2015 7:46 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

Pundits and politicians are already looking for a convenient explanation for the twin Middle East disasters of the rise of Islamic State and the humanitarian catastrophe in Syria.

The genuine answer is politically unpalatable, because the primary cause of both calamities is U.S. war and covert operations in the Middle East, followed by the abdication of U.S. power and responsibility for Syria policy to Saudi Arabia and other Sunni allies.

The emergence of a new state always involves a complex of factors. But over the past three decades, U.S. covert operations and war have entered repeatedly and powerfully into the chain of causality leading to Islamic State’s present position.

The causal chain begins with the role of the U.S. in creating a mujahedeen force to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan in the 1980s. Osama bin Laden was a key facilitator in training that force in Afghanistan. Without that reckless U.S. policy, the blowback of the later creation of al-Qaida would very likely not have occurred.

But it was the U.S. invasion and occupation of Iraq that made al-Qaida a significant political-military force for the first time. The war drew Islamists to Iraq from all over the Middle East, and their war of terrorism against Iraqi Shiites was a precursor to the sectarian wars to follow.

The actual creation of Islamic State is also directly linked to the Iraq War. The former U.S. commander at Camp Bucca in Iraq has acknowledged that the detention of 24,000 prisoners, including hard-core al-Qaida cadres, Baathist officers and innocent civilians, created a “pressure cooker for extremism.”

It was during their confinement in that camp during the U.S. troop surge in Iraq 2007 and 2008 that nine senior al-Qaida military cadres planned the details of how they would create Islamic State.

The Obama administration completed the causal chain by giving the green light to a major war in Syria waged by well-armed and well-trained foreign jihadists.

Although the Assad regime undoubtedly responded to the firebombing of the Baath Party headquarters in Daraa in mid-March 2011 with excessive force, an armed struggle against the regime began almost immediately.

In late March or early April, a well-planned ambush of Syrian troops killed at least two dozen soldiers near the same city. Other killings of troops took place in April in other cities, including Daraa, where 19 soldiers were gunned down.

During the second half of 2011 and through 2012, thousands of foreign jihadists streamed into Syria. As early as November 2011, al-Qaida was playing a central role in the war, carrying out spectacular suicide bombings in Damascus and Aleppo.

Obama should have reacted to the first indications of that development and insisted that Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Qatar keep external arms and military personnel and funding out of Syria in order to allow a process of peaceful change to take place. Instead, however, the administration became an integral part of a proxy war for regime change.

Seymour Hersh reported last year that an unpublished addendum to the Senate Intelligence Committee report on Benghazi revealed a covert CIA operation to arm Syrian rebels, in cooperation with Sunni allies’ intelligence services.


In early 2012, Hersh reported, following an agreement with Turkey, then-CIA Director David Petraeus approved an elaborate covert operation in which Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Qatar would fund the shipment of weapons to Syrian rebels from stocks captured from the Gadhafi government.

The scheme employed front companies set up in Libya to manage the shipments of arms in order to separate the U.S. government from the operation. An October 2012 Defense Intelligence Agency report released by the Department of Defense to Judicial Watch confirmed the shipments of Libyan weapons from the port of Benghazi to two Syrian ports near Turkey beginning in October 2011 and continuing through August 2012.



The part that's not mentioned is that France, the USA, and other willing western participants went well beyond the UN-allowed establishment of a "no fly" zone to outright air support of "rebels" on the ground - "rebels" which were known to be jihadists, supplied with over 70 planeloads (clocked thru Turkish airports) and several boatloads of weapons by Qatar and Saudi Arabia. Those jihadists which didn't shift to Syria scattered to Mali, Tunisia etc to form even more wahhabi-nut-case groups elsewhere.

This sounds very much like a precursor to Syria: fund, arm, and train known jihadists, all the while telling the public that these are "moderate" "freedom-loving" rebels.

Quote:


A larger covert program involved a joint military operations center in Istanbul

WHich is also a major purchaser of illegal ISIS oil
Quote:

, where CIA officers worked with Turkish, Saudi and Qatari intelligence agencies that were also providing arms to their favorite Syrian rebels groups, according to sources who talked with The Washington Post’s David Ignatius.

By November 2012, al-Qaida’s Syrian franchise, al-Nusra Front, had 6,000 to 10,000 troops—mostly foreign fighters—under its command and was regarded as the most disciplined and effective fighting force in the field.

The CIA’s Gulf allies armed brigades that had allied themselves with al-Nusra—or were ready to do so. A Qatari intelligence officer is said to have declared, “I will send weapons to al-Qaeda if it will help” topple Assad.

The CIA officials overseeing the covert operation knew very well what their Sunni allies were doing. After the U.S. shipments from Benghazi stopped in September 2012 because of the attack on the U.S. diplomatic post there, a CIA analysis reminded President Obama that the covert operation in Afghanistan had ended up creating a Frankenstein monster.

Even the now-famous account in Hillary Clinton’s 2014 memoirs about Obama rejecting a proposal in late 2012 from CIA Director Petraeus for arming and training Syrian rebels does not hide the fact that everyone was well aware of the danger that arms sent to “moderates” would end up in the hands of terrorists.

Despite this, after rejecting Petraeus’ plan in 2012, Obama approved the covert training of “moderate” Syrian rebels in April 2013. As the Pentagon has been forced to acknowledge in recent weeks, that program has been a complete fiasco, as the units either joined al-Nusra or were attacked by al-Nusra.

Meanwhile, as Vice President Joe Biden pointed out in October 2014, Turkey, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates were pouring “hundreds of millions of dollars and tens, thousands of tons of weapons” into Syria that were ending up in the hands of the jihadists.

Unfortunately, Biden’s complaint came two and a half years too late. By October 2014, more than 15,000 foreign fighters, including 2,000 Westerners, were estimated to have gone to Syria. Islamic State and al-Nusra Front emerged as the two major contenders for power in Syria once Assad is overthrown, and the Saudis and Qataris were now ready to place their bets on al-Nusra.

In early 2015, after King Salman inherited the Saudi throne, the three Sunni states began focusing their support on al-Nusra and its military allies, encouraging them to form a new military command, the “Army of Conquest.” The al-Nusra-led front then captured Idlib province in March.

Obama, focusing on the Iran nuclear agreement, has given no indication that he is troubled by his allies’ approach. If the Bush administration destabilized Iraq in order to increase U.S. military presence and power in the Middle East, the Obama administration has countenanced a proxy war that has destabilized and Syria because of his primary concern with consolidating the U.S. alliances with the Saudis and the other Sunni regimes.

Although it has been almost a rigid rule that pundits must ascribe U.S. fealty to its Saudi alliance to oil interests, oil is far from the top of the list of U.S interests today. More important to our national security state is the interest of the Pentagon and the military services to protect the military bases they have in Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Qatar, Kuwait and the UAE.

Their need to preserve those alliance relationships is intensified by the Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC) cornucopia of military contracts for U.S. arms manufacturers that assures enormous profits will continue to flow for the foreseeable future. One estimate of the total at stake for the Pentagon and its private allies in military relationships with the GCC is $100 billion to $150 billion over two decades.

Those are crucial bureaucratic and business stakes for the U.S. national security state, which is usually driven by the bottom lines associated with different courses of action. Especially given the administration’s lack of a coherent geopolitical perspective on the region, the security state’s interests offer a persuasive explanation for Obama’s effectively farming out the most important element of its Syria policy to regional allies, with disastrous results.




Taken from here - http://www.globalresearch.ca/why-the-u-s-owns-the-rise-of-islamic-stat
e-and-the-syria-disaster/5480948


Global Research, a conspiracy website arguing that 9/11, and bombings in London, Madrid etc. were inside jobs. Further evidence that you're turning into PirateNews?

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Tuesday, October 13, 2015 11:38 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I notice you can't address my post about the continuing role of the USA in killing children and promoting jihadism in the ME. So instead of discussing the facts, you discuss the sources. Heck, if you're so focused on "sources", why not bring out the Bible?

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Wednesday, October 14, 2015 7:08 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

So instead of discussing the facts, you discuss the sources.

Questioning dodgy sources is an excellent way to establish the facts.

And a conversation based on facts is impossible with you Signy, because you unapologetically drink in lies from various propaganda sites.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Wednesday, October 14, 2015 10:05 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Questioning dodgy sources is an excellent way to establish the facts.
And how do you KNOW they're "dodgy" sources UNLESS you parse their content?

The problem is that you start out AHEAD OF TIME accepting some sources and rejecting others, not by careful consideration of WHAT THEY SAY but by some other criteria that seems to be a combination of familiarity and habit.

If that's not your criteria, how do you decide whether a source is "dodgy"?

I expect this will be another unanswered question,

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Thursday, October 15, 2015 9:07 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

The problem is that you start out AHEAD OF TIME accepting some sources and rejecting others

On the contrary Sig, I check the content of the sites you post and see what kind of people you are getting your information from. Your neo-Nazis were easily identifiable by their pro-Hitler videos, and your conspiracy whackjobs were easily identifiable by their 9/11 'truth' articles. And RT is, well, RT.


It's not personal. It's just war.

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Thursday, October 15, 2015 10:15 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I'm sorry, but who the fuck care "what kind of people" "they" are?

I learned a lot about MKULTRA and depleted uranium (had to look up sabotted rounds) from Pirate News.

SO, you go to a website and you see that they post something that strikes you as being "pro-Hitler", and because they post some items that you don't agree with, you reject everything else they write. Because, well, there's those examples of falsehoods or mistakes or what-have-you; clearly "those people" have an agenda which makes everything they say suspect.

On the other hand, if I could show you that BBC or bellingcat also posted lies, gross errors, or intentional distortions, would you stop going to "those kinds of people" for your information? Are your standards for journalistic integrity objective, and is your response applied evenly, across-the-board?

Because, yanno, the sheer fact that the western press (AND YOU) zoom in on SOME dead children but not others already tells me that you and your sources are both distorted.

All I can think is that you're simply prejudiced. (Prejudice, from PRE= before the fact, JUDICE = to judge, judgment before the facts) You trust white, middle class, liberal, preferably British sources despite the fact that they are also post errors, lies, and distortions. What amount of lies, errors and distortions would force you to give them up, to treat them as you treat other websites that you "don't like"?


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Thursday, October 15, 2015 12:07 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

SO, you go to a website and you see that they post something that strikes you as being "pro-Hitler", and because they post some items that you don't agree with, you reject everything else they write.


Err, yes...? What do you do when you see something pro-Hitler on a website? Well I guess we know that, you post something from that website on these boards. But what goes through your mind when you see that source praising the Nazis? It doesn't bother you?

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Friday, October 16, 2015 11:33 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


So, you go to a website and you find some articles that contain errors of fact, or which consistently portray an event from a POV, or publish outright lies ... and then you judge (some) authors ... or perhaps the entire website ... to be so contaminated by ideology as to be avoided at all costs. (I guess because it would smirch your intellectual purity?)

Well, I can point to the NYT (which repeatedly and to this day publishes demonstrable lies) and the BBC (which, if nothing else, is biased towards NATO) and bellingcat (which has made such serious errors in regards to both the Syrian gas attack and image analysis of Ukraine as to negate their own conclusions) ... what am I supposed to do, using YOUR yardstick?

Stop reading them? According to you, I should. That's what YOU would do, if you were at all even-handed about your treatment of information sources.

What you fail recognize, apparently, is that ALL information is ideological. ALL media, ALL websites, ALL publications (even scientific ones) start out with assumptions and a specific position from which they view the world. ALL information is limited/ selected, if only by lack of knowledge. Whether it is a specific eyewitness POV (Twitter) or compilation of eyewitnesses (bellingcat) or formal publication (BBC, NYT) or even historical investigation ....

Every single piece of information has already been preselected by the presenter.

(And BTW- eyewitnesses are notoriously unreliable, as are human memories.)

You say that you "know" this, and yet you continue to treat some sources as "suspect" and other sources as sacrosanct (and rely on, and quote liberally and unreservedly, as if they were truth) when in reality you should treat all information with suspicion.

I read a book, a long time ago, called "Man Against Myth" ("It is an instructive, amusing and courageous book whose success is most desirable in public interest."-Albert Einstein) and the point the author makes ... and the point that I have been trying to make over and over .... and apparently failing spectacularly ... is that everyone views the world thru tinted lenses. EVERYONE. The very beginning of the book makes a passionate case for seeing those tints which color our views, and that the hardest myths to uncover are those which are the most comprehensive... because, being universal, they're the hardest to identify.

It's easy for us to see the myths behind Russian publications (Well, maybe not so much for you, since you refuse to read them!) but ... what are the assumptions and myths behind the BBC? What are the myths behind bellingcat? The NYT? Please don't tell me there are none, because there are, and I've pointed out some in this thread already.

I'll go further with bellingcat, because I've pointed out this before in the Syrian gas attack: Images are only PART of the story. They need to be, among other things, reliably authenticated and analyzed, because contending sides are all adept at contaminating the twittersphere, to the point of staging events. There is forensic on-the ground physical evidence ... chemical weapons have trace impurities and stabilizers which reliably rule out manufacturers. There are the physical shells. There is electronic intel. Doctor's exams. Eyewitness testimony to sights, sounds, smells. May I repeat that I pointed this out AT THE TIME?

Bellingcat's assumption - it's foundation myth, if you will- is that it presumes that image analysis ALONE is sufficient to uncover the truth. (Is the founder an avid video-gamer? That's what I'd suspect.) That is EXACTLY where they have failed, to the point that even professional image analysts have stepped forward to discredit bellingcat's methodology. But even with better methodology, bellingcat is ignoring other vital - and perhaps more probative- information. So, bellingcat is limited in what it can provide.

One thing I know for sure- you will NEVER get closer to the truth by holding up your skirts and tiptoeing around things you disagree with. The only thing that you ensure by such behavior is that you'll stay in a zone where nothing new penetrates. As if the world has nothing new to tell you, and you know everything important already.


As I said in the other thread, it's been a crushingly busy week. I'll be posting interesting items as I have the time, but probably won't be responding to you.

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Friday, October 16, 2015 1:12 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Before there were children drowning in the sea, there were dead children in Afghanistan




In Iraq





(Soon to be dead)

http://thewe.cc/thewei/&_/images8/iraq/dead_child_us_invasion_2003
.jpe


(beheaded by ISIS)

.... Libya


.... Palestine



Syria ....


gas attack by jihadists


Ukraine ....




Who ignited and fed this clusterfuck, anyway?


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You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Saturday, October 17, 2015 8:30 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Originally posted by G:
Child death porn from Siggy, again. Yeah, you're one twisted piece of go se. You think posting that here makes any difference?



It won't, as along as you stuff "anything" into that empty maw where your empathy should be. Tell me, does posting dogs chasing their tails, or sputtering about privacy rights, or name-calling successfully distract you from the fact that you have completely lost your moral compass?

Why are you not OUTRAGED at the fact that these children were killed in pointless wars waged by YOUR GOVERNMENT? What is wrong with you?

Are you so focused on "winning" an argument that you can't even acknowledge the world "out there", where real people (including real children) are being killed?

Is your ego so fucking fragile that it consumes your entire world view, from horizon to horizon?

How did your priorities get so distorted?

My posts apparently aren't going to give you a sense of empathy, but you should AT LEAST develop an intellectual backbone. Something to keep you pointing in the right direction when your emotions clearly lead you astray.

Quote:

Will it save any children in Syria or Afghanistan? Anywhere? You really think it's proper to use those images (without consent) to further you rants to a board of 20 people? What a selfish sick f....


I'm the sick fuck? I've been pointing out to you for quite a while now that you're not as "nice" as you think you are. What's more twisted? Directing attention to the HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF CHILDREN KILLED BY THE USA? Or diverting attention from the HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF CHILDREN KILLED BY THE USA with videos of a dog chasing its tail?

Why are you NOT outraged??? Not AT ME for pointing out this inconvenient fact, but at the situation? Or, if outrage at pointless child-killing isn't your cup of tea, how about at least managing some sort of morally comprehensible response?

I suggest that you take a moral health holiday. You've become unhinged by the back-and-forth here, and have lost a sense of perspective. Take the time to do some deep introspection as to how you got to this heartless, psychopathic place. If common human decency doesn't do it for you, maybe some intellectual rigor will point you in the right direction.


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You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Saturday, October 17, 2015 6:05 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"Posting the images of dead children without consent ..."

That ship already sailed. No matter how hard you try and pretend otherwise, those images were ALREADY in the public domain.

And there you are - aghast! that someone should use publicly available images - but are silent about those children's deaths. Silent about their pain, their deaths, the injustice, the complete pointlessness of the atrocity. By your indifference, you prove you don't care about any of that. It's an ignorable thing as you try to score points on the internet.

Talk about perverse.




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Saturday, October 17, 2015 7:47 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Posting the images of dead children without consent like it was your right to publicly defile them again - that is what being a sick fuck is, that is being in a sociopathic place. How would you feel if someone posted images of you dead daughter just to make some worthless point on a scifi forum to 20 people who have no influence on the situation? You went way too far. You owe those families a huge apology, which of course wouldn't be worth anything. Talk about an UGLY American. If you have an ounce of class or any sense of perspective and responsibility you'll remove those images.

Uh huh.

Your sense of "class" was offended by the pictures, but not by the killings.

The person who owes "these families" an apology (assuming that the families themselves are still alive) is YOU: attempting to bury and ignore the tragedy that occurred.

But keep posting, you sick fuck. Keep digging that hole. Here, have a shovel, you psychopathic moron.



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You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Saturday, October 17, 2015 8:48 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Hmmm. Which is worse. Classless or psychopathic? Gosh.

Which would YOU rather be called?



Meanwhile, back to those poor Syrians, dead because of the US's 'Great Game' ... anything to say about that? Maybe just a minimal pro-forma 'tsk tsk. what a shame ...'?




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Sunday, October 18, 2015 8:36 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

But keep posting, you sick fuck. Keep digging that hole. Here, have a shovel, you psychopathic moron.
- SIGNY

You post this gore and call me psychotic? Do you even know how these kids died? Do you really know who killed them or how they were killed? You were there when it happened?

I would appreciate answer to any of those questions - if you don't I'll assume you have no clue and you're the lying sack of shit most of us know you to be.

A few more - since you're so much better than the rest of us: So what's your plan? How are you saving these kids? Posting here? Making a bomb in your basement? For whom? I'm waiting to be impressed by your great big beautiful plan to save the world! Help us Signym! Only you can save us!

Yanno, I could post HUNDREDS of these pictures, and it would still only be 1/1000 of the reality.

So, GSTRING (and KPO, and THUGR) which side were you on when so many children were killed?
Who were you supporting when the USA invaded Afghanistan?
Which side were you on when the USA invaded Iraq?
Which side were you on when the west decided to bomb Libya?
Which side are you on when it comes to the shelling going on in Ukraine?
Who are you supporting in Syria?

Were/ are you on the side which is killing most of the children?

GSTRING, you keep whining that "we" don't really know your morals. Well, now's your chance to make your ethics known. Stop hiding behind a veil of obscurity!

Stand up and day it loud and proud: Which side were YOU on?

Come on ...

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Sunday, October 18, 2015 1:49 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Do you even know how these kids died?




Very OBVIOUSLY they died peacefully! Conflicts had nothing to do with it.



Talk about a stupid question.




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Sunday, October 18, 2015 11:29 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

If you had been paying attention to anyone but yourself and not stooped to your worn out negative presumptions, you would have seen that I'm always been on the side of peace and negotiations first
Uh huh.
Like where?
And if that's so (and I have not seen ANY evidence of that anywhere here) ... why do you always seem to end up on the side that does the most killing, if you're always starting out on the side of peace?

Quote:

You post this gore and call me psychotic?

Was the person who made Hearts and Minds a psycho?



How about the maker of this little documentary?



Don't you realize that one reason why people can be convinced to wage war is because they're shielded from the realities of war?

Quote:

Do you even know how these kids died?
It's pretty self-evident from the pictures. That WAS a stupid question!

Quote:

Do you really know who killed them or how they were killed?

In most cases the websites were clear about who killed these children. HOW they were killed... well, I think we addressed that in that previous question. But ... really???

What do you THINK happens when a missile hits a wedding, or when a city is subjected to a "shake and bake" operation"? Children are killed by concussion, shrapnel, fire, etc ... does it really matter how these particular children were killed? They're pretty emblematic of how children are killed in war. It's something to be avoided, wouldn't you say?

Quote:

Were you there when it happened?
What another stupid question! What does it matter if I was there or not?

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Monday, October 19, 2015 10:01 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Talk about a stupid question.- KIKI

You wear dumb like your favorite old sweater.-STRING



KIKI said it was a stupid question, and instead of either expanding on the question or modifying it, you resort to kindergarten-ish name-calling.

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Monday, October 19, 2015 11:27 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


GSTRING, even your idiot buddies aren't here backing you up on this one. Everybody can see that your questions are misdirected, pointless and irrelevant.

Quote:

Do you even know how these kids died?--GSTRING

It's pretty self-evident from the pictures. That WAS a stupid question!

So then it should be easy for you - how?

All I have to do ... all YOU have to do ... is look at the pictures.

But, here you go

Before there were children drowning in the sea, there were dead children in Afghanistan


The child closest to the camera was killed by an explosion, and given the fact that half of his hair is blown off, and that there is an entrance wound in his forehead but that the left parietal/occipital part of his skull is blown apart and that it appears that one eyeball was blown out, it looks as if he was very close. The second boy probably died of shrapnel.

The website tells me that this is Afghanistan.

Now, Afghanistan has a long and tragic history with the USA. Did you know that Brzezinski starting arming the Taliban AND al Qaida BEFORE the Soviets invaded? His idea was that the USA would destabilize Afghanistan simply to draw Russia into war. TO THIS DAY HE'S OK WITH HAVING CREATED JIHADISM.

IN HIS VIEW, NOTHING IS AS IMPORTANT AS EASTERN EUROPE (WELL, HE IS POLISH AFTER ALL!) AND DESTROYING RUSSIA.

Muslims ... Muslim terrorist, Muslim victims ... just so much irrelevance. But don't take it from me, you can read his statement here ...

Brzezinski: How Jimmy Carter and I Started the Mujahideen
http://www.greanvillepost.com/2015/10/16/how-jimmy-carter-and-i-starte
d-the-mujahideen
/


The second website tells me that this was in Iraq.




Since the bodies are clearly in a morgue, this was probably in a larger city with hospitals and morgues and ambulances. The amount and scattering of blood suggests that these children were killed by shrapnel. ONE of the children has half of hid head blown off, so this was an explosion very close to the child.

Did you know that the Coalition of the Willing invasion of Iraq started with a campaign of "Shock and Awe" (mass bombing by the USA)? Now, when you attempt to "shock and awe" a population thru indiscriminate violence, what is that except terrorism? The worst campaigns centered on Fallujah, which was subjected to intense shelling with depleted uranium, and intense missile fire in which phosphorous was used to "illuminate" as scene, but which were referred to among the military as "shake and bake" operations ... fire on structures so heavily that you drive people out of shelter, then rain phosphorous on them.


http://warisacrime.org/iraq

Somewhere between 150,000 to 1,000,000 Iraqis were killed by the USA invasion, and since about half of the population or Iraq was under 15, that means 75,000 to 500,000 children were killed. So ultimately, these SPECIFIC children don't matter, they are reflective of the many children undoubtedly killed in this invasion.

I could keep going, but I'm busy. I think you can figure out the rest for yourself.

I suggest you watch this before you start accusing me of psychopathy. Because who is the bigger psychopath- the person who does everything they can to hide and deny the anguish that their government is imposing on the world, or the person who points it out?

It's called "Heart and Minds", and it's an award-winning documentary of Vietnam.



--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Monday, October 19, 2015 8:45 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"these children"

So, all you care about are these SPECIFIC children? These 34 children and ONLY these 34 children? Is that what you're basing your entire argument on? That only THESE CHILDREN matter? And if Signy doesn't answer specifically and exactly what happened to ALL THESE CHILDREN but JUST THESE CHILDREN it erases the tens of thousands of children who were killed??

Don't you care about the tens of thousands of children who died at the hand of US policy? Do you have nothing to say about them?




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Monday, October 19, 2015 8:59 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


GSTRING, you think that I should be there personally to attest and record that these specific children were killed by a personally-recorded enemy, otherwise it's somehow deceitful?

So, that dog-chasing-tail video ... my god, you didn't record it yourself, did you? Shit-canned. Everything you've ever said about the middle -east: Shit-canned. Everything you've ever said, quoted, or reproduced about Kiev, the Donbas, or Russia: Shit canned!

Really, come to think of it, all of your posts, except those that you personally participated in: Deceitful. Exploitative.

So, I guess it's OK if I just mentally shit-can your posts .... ....

DONE!





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Tuesday, October 20, 2015 9:24 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

So, that dog-chasing-tail video ... my god, you didn't record it yourself, did you? Shit-canned. Everything you've ever said about the middle -east: Shit-canned. Everything you've ever said, quoted, or reproduced about Kiev, the Donbas, or Russia: Shit canned! = SIGNY

So by your own reasoning we can shit can all of your posts - check.



You are hoist on your own petard, GTRING. I made no such claims and requirements. All I asked is that you (and your idiot friends here) to look at a wide variety of sources and to do an honest job of trying to figure out what's real, and responding logically and on-point to various interpretations.

But it seems to me that in this thread alone- as a prime example of what you (and your idiot friends) do when faced with factual material - you simply throw so much chaff into the wind. In this case, to distract from the significance of the historical fact that the USA killed 75,000 - 500,000 children in Iraq ALONE, and that was in the latest invasion. That doesn't include the children killed in the first invasion, or the children killed by our other invasions across the mideast, or children killed by our allies with our money and arms: the Taliban or Al Qaida/ al Nusra. What was your response?

Name-calling! "Deny, deflect, obfuscate". Requiring that the poster have been PERSONALLY THERE to witness every single event that that post about!

REALLY???

How did you get into such a distorted space?

And more importantly, by YOUR OWN response, you personally have no business posting here about ... well, anything, since you have not been there personally to witness and record it. You should have been more careful what you demanded, GSTRING, somebody might hold you up to it.

So I'm holding you up to your own demand: STOP POSTING UNLESS YOU PERSONALLY SAW THE EVENT.

BTW, as regards to your so-called position about the Mideast, when you said that victories of outsiders were ephemeral, I asked at least five or six times if you would clarify if that really applied to ANY nation, or just Russia.

You refused to answer.

So, how do we evaluate your claim that you "always" try for negotiation and peace first? All you've managed to do so far is dredge up one equivocal statement that you even refused to clarify at the time. So where is this "always" that you're talking about? Not only do you not meet your own characterization pf "always" ("I'm always been on the side of peace and negotiations first, never kill except in self-defense), I would say it's pretty close to "never" since actual evidence of your peaceable, humanitarian stance is few and very far between. It seems to me that you post in fear of your idiot buddies here, and that you lack conviction.


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Tuesday, October 20, 2015 1:32 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


flush ...




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Tuesday, October 20, 2015 2:37 PM

THGRRI


Sources, funny when I just reposted a conversation you had SIG with Miker on this very subject. He showed what you had posted citing links you provided as the source of your post, to say nothing of what you suggest they do.




Here's a source;


Video shows Syrians near Aleppo hiding from airstrikes under mattresses


From under a mattress, a small child emerges on all fours, oblivious to the danger in the skies. Out from another mattress crawls a baby.

Rare amateur video obtained by CNN shows entire families in farm fields cowering under mattresses as they attempt to shield themselves from airstrikes -- as if bedding could protect them from aerial bombardment.

You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns unless you're Russia

http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/20/middleeast/syria-airstrikes-aleppo-civil
ians/index.html


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Wednesday, October 21, 2015 8:45 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Eeeww... that last load didn't leave.

Flush, flush

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Wednesday, October 21, 2015 9:26 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

So, that dog-chasing-tail video ... my god, you didn't record it yourself, did you? Shit-canned. Everything you've ever said about the middle -east: Shit-canned. Everything you've ever said, quoted, or reproduced about Kiev, the Donbas, or Russia: Shit canned! = SIGNY

Wow - you just equated the importance of the source of a funny dog video with that of photos of mutilated dead children.

No, but YOU just did!

Quote:

You are one sick fuck, no sense of scale or context or subject. Using the deaths of strangers to score points on a nearly empty forum - shame is too weak a word.
I'm not trying to use it to "score points", but if you think that's all I'm trying to do ... that those pictures are only useful for "scoring points" ... then the sick fuck is you.

Quote:

The source of such images are much more important
WHY?

I'm serious. I have all kinds of interpretations as to why YOU would think it's important, but I would rather you explain you reasons to me so that I don't mis-interpret

Quote:

and as such it's much more important to know where they come from other than "some website." You yourself have asked about photo sourcing in the past - so unless you're hypocrite
Except that I'm trying to show you something that absolutely doesn't depend on "where" the photos came from, or "who" killed the children, and so your continued focus on those topics seems to trivialize their deaths to the one thing YOU seem to be focused on, which is ... "scoring points". But, again, why don't YOU tell me why sourcing is so important to you? Maybe we can have a more fruitful discussion along those lines.

Quote:

In this case, to distract from the significance of the historical fact that the USA killed 75,000 - 500,000 children in Iraq ALONE, and that was in the latest invasion.... SIGNY

So, didn't read my post. The one right on this page. Why do you ask questions and then not read the answers? Does that seem smart to you?- GSTRING



What you said ... AFTER MUCH PRODDING ... was
Quote:

Our bombing was horrific, and probably ultimately unnecessary. Too many innocent civilians died and that's a huge regret and sadness for me even though I was personally against that tactic

You were PERSONALLY against that tactic? Any evidence of that here, other than this most recent post? Or was this the first time you openly objected to such tactics? Because, yanno, try as I might to remember you objecting to the killing of civilians, it somehow NEVER came up in your "Russia invades Ukraine" thread, and never came up in any thread previous to about three weeks ago. When you suddenly became sensitized to the topic.

Quote:

And more importantly, by YOUR OWN response, you personally have no business posting here about ... well, anything, since you have not been there personally to witness and record it. You should have been more careful what you demanded, GSTRING, somebody might hold you up to it. So I'm holding you up to your own demand: STOP POSTING UNLESS YOU PERSONALLY SAW THE EVENT. =SIGNY

Not going to happen until you stop lying and making shit up.- GSTRING

Such as?? Since you're accusing me of lying, you better have evidence to that, or you yourself are the liar.

Quote:

BTW, as regards to your so-called position about the Mideast, when you said that victories of outsiders were ephemeral, I asked at least five or six times if you would clarify if that really applied to ANY nation, or just Russia. You refused to answer.


Quote:

"Brilliant - yes, a complete mess [ME], playing with a deck of ten thousand cards and all made up - no one speaks the truth and no one trusts anyone. Anyone at any time could change their allegiance for little to no reason, or even the wrong reason. A perfectly unsolvable puzzle."
LINKS PLEASE

Quote:

"Only an idiot thinks there are actual answers and solutions in the ME. The political landscape shifts as much as the sands of the desert (omg what great metaphor). You're pretty much screwed whatever you do if you are there.
THIS IS THE POST THAT PROMPTED ALL OF MY REPEATED QUESTIONS. ONE OF THE ONES THAT YOU CLAIM IS AN "ANSWER".

Perhaps you "forgot" the sequence of events.

Since it appeared ONLY when the Russians started intervening in Syria, I wondered whether you were so focused on Russia that you didn't notice its application to all other parties in the Syrian conflict, especially Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Jordan, and THE UNITED STATES. I did ask for a clarification five or six times, specifically whether or not your statement included the USA and other parties, or not. You refused to answer. Your behavior speaks for itself.

Quote:

And now Russia thinks they will find answers - good luck to them. Probably more sad Russian mothers is what they'll get, mostly. They learned as little from Afghanistan as we did.
What we learned ... and have applied consistently since then ... is that terrorism and chaos and destruction work great, for us, since we have no intention of developing anything better.

Quote:

"Most visitors who die in the desert die no more than a mile from a well traveled road... They believe they can walk a short distance off the road and then when they look back the way looks unfamiliar... because the sands continually change, and then they are lost for all eternity."

You say you're better than me and yet you can't understand something as direct and simple as that?

The person who sounds lost is you, to tell you the truth.

Quote:

"So, how do we evaluate your claim that you "always" try for negotiation and peace first? All you've managed to do so far is dredge up one equivocal statement that I refused to acknowledge at the time." - SIGNY

Fixed that for you. Anyone means anyone (you'll probably find a way to not understand that as well).-GSTING

Unlike you, I can demonstrate that I've unequivocally been against the destruction and chaos fostered by the USA.

Quote:

Not done with you:
Oh, I'm shaking in my boots ....

Quote:

So what's your plan? How are you saving these kids? Posting here? Making a bomb in your basement? For whom? I'm waiting to be impressed by your great big beautiful plan to save the world!
One person at a time.

The USA plan ... the plan which makes use of terrorism and destruction, and which the USA has been grinding out since "Jimmy" Carter .... could never be implemented unless the civilian population wasn't so propagandized by words and phrases like "freedom fighter" (mujahideen, Afghanistan), "WMD" (Saddam), "tyrant" (Qaddafi), "terrorist" (OUR terrorists, everywhere), "freedom fighter" (back to THAT again, Syria), "Freedom" ("Arab Spring"). A more reflective approach to these buttons would prevent our government from using them against us to implement destructive policies.

Now, you "say" that you're all down with that idea. And yet, there's little evidence of that HERE.

Quote:

Remember - you're so much better than me, so you probably have a great plan already in place.
Among other things, it requires that people be intelligent, aware, able to throw off propaganda, responsible, and willing to believe in democracy and the courage to act accordingly. I know it requires a rather large amount of intelligence and awareness on the part of people, including you. You claim to have the moral high ground. Why don't you find some quotes of yours which demonstrate it?

Quote:

Really simple questions for someone who professes they are so bright, and yet no answers? Hmmm... afraid? Or maybe you're just another attention whore on the Internet? (looking more and more likely)
I'd rather be a whore for peace than a whore for USA wars, which you appear to be. And if you object to this impression, why don't you come up with something that you posted AT THE TIME to show me otherwise?

Now, let me condense my impressions of you into a few short paragraphs, so that maybe you can reply to it constructively, instead of pieces here and there. It's very much the same kind of accusations leveled against me, although I obviously believe I have far more weight of fact on my side.

IMHO, you like to think that you're on the side of "right", but the only time you become aware of death and destruction is when you think the Russians or some other selected enemy is violating "human rights". You rarely apply the same yardstick to "your side", and then only after much argument and prompting. For example, you were all bothered by the Russian "invasion" of Ukraine, but could barely be bothered by Kiev's shelling of cities and the death of 9000 civilians. You have no objection to torture (as long as it's the USA or Britain doing it http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=54490&mid=9
32124#932124
). The only point of comparison that you make make to "evil" is Russia.

Basically, you're all about liberalism, as long as the criticism stays "inside". Once the USA is mentioned as a target or Russia comes into play, your ethics and morals suddenly become inconsistent. They don't stand up to your biases.

BTW, there is a function here that allows everyone to look at your previous posts, which is how I got a fairly broad view of your opinions. It might be instructive TO YOU to review your posts. Over the long run, they're revealing.

------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Wednesday, October 21, 2015 10:41 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

How about you show me where I was pro-USA killing people? Since you think I'm such a hawk, should be easy, right?


It IS easy. Basically, you react to anyone else other than the USA or Britain doing violent things, but excuse the USA doing the same thing.

I can point to this thread here, where you throw much chaff in the air to reduce the significance of the USA killing somewhere in the realm of 100,000 children (if not more) in the past 10 years. For you (not me), it became not a matter of horror at needless and tragic death, but a matter of "taste" and "attestation" and "scoring points".

Here you are, defending KPO who refuses to acknowledge the significance of the bombing of Dresden
Quote:

I knew it! KPO is worse than Satan!

http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=59952&mid=1
001930#1001930


This is you, defending the corproate POV
Quote:

*snort* I'm sorry, who is it that comes to this board crying all the time?!? That most definitely would be you! The bulk of your posts are text blocks of whining and crying about something.

http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=59971&mid=1
001801#1001801


Dismissing the Iranian POV (and everyone else who bothers to pay attention)
Quote:

So yeah, a lot of nothing.

http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=59966&mid=1
001794#1001794


Claiming a POV that he can just never seem to link to
Quote:

Of course another fiction from Signym - I even posted vids of civilian deaths and lamented how there would be senseless deaths on both sides because it was obvious these people hated each other.

http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=59843&mid=9
99803#999803


Completely lying about my sources
Quote:

This coming from the person who says she has to depend on Putin Media for her news.

http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=59569&p=2

Jumping to conclusions about who killed Boris Nemstov (Russia, naturally]
Quote:

I don't think Putin put on his KGB mafia track suit and shot the guy himself - otherwise no.


After asking me what I thought people should DO in response to injutice, this is G's response
Quote:

Merely following/ retweeting/ clicking on a button isn't effective. People actually have to DO SOMETHING MEANINGFUL in real life... like go to a demonstration and risk getting shot at maybe, or go on strike, or at least stop buying a product.- SIGNY
The Signym lecture is here! How people should live their lives according to Signym! Do it my way - control control control. -GSRING



Yanno, I could go on and on ... but I've run out of time. Certainly not run out of material. If you insist, I'll go further, when I have more time. But to sum up ...

Here is GSTRING, objecting to Obama's support of jihadists ...
*crickets*

Here is GSTRING, worrying about the civilian death toll in eastern Ukraine
*crickets*

Here is GSTRING, objecting to the bombing of Libya
*crickets*

And raising questions about the coverage of Libya and Syria which would foment USA intervention
*crickets*

Or even mentioning the corruption in FIFA -which as been going on for decades- BEFORE Russians come into the conversation
*crickets*

For someone who claims to have such rigorous ethics, you sure apply them unevenly. According to your posts, the only evil worth reacting to is what's done by Russia or (other) anti-Americans. The USA and Britain and their corporations are, of course, incapable of deliberately killing large numbers of civilians, committing or fostering terrorism, or distorting history or the news. At least, that's what your posts indicate, because you sure defend American and Britain's violence.


--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Wednesday, October 21, 2015 1:18 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

And then lots more nonsense after those first lies not worth the time.
So, YOUR QUOTES .... which were copied and linked ... are the they "nonsense" that you're referring to, or the "lies"?


--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Wednesday, October 21, 2015 2:38 PM

THGRRI


Quote:



SIG

I'd rather be a whore for peace than a whore for USA wars, which you appear to be. And if you object to this impression, why don't you come up with something that you posted AT THE TIME to show me otherwise?



You're not a whore for peace. You're a whore for Russia. Most of the links you create here serve the purpose of propagating this site with Russia's agenda. You aren't fooling anybody. That's why it's always you and 1kiki defending yourselves against the rest who do and have posted here.

The fact that you never challenge what they do shows the rest of us that nothing you say about what's wrong with the world is actually real to you. It's all an attempt to clean up Russia's image.


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Wednesday, October 21, 2015 3:03 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Murdered & mutilated toddlers through out the Muslim world ?


Saw that comin'.



Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Thursday, October 22, 2015 11:25 AM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by G:
Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

And then lots more nonsense after those first lies not worth the time.
So, YOUR QUOTES .... which were copied and linked ... are the they "nonsense" that you're referring to, or the "lies"?



I see by this attempt at deflection that you admit you were lying. That's a big step toward recovery.



I'll admit it, She's lying.


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Thursday, October 22, 2015 6:59 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by AURAPTOR:
Murdered & mutilated toddlers through out the Muslim world ?


Saw that comin'.



Oh wait... this isn't a showcase of Planned Parenthood pics, is it ?

No, I didn't think so.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Saturday, October 24, 2015 9:56 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Here you are 'G', protesting Kiev shelling cities and civilians



http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=58499&p=14

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
And finally- Do you think that civilians should be shelled in order to support a national boundary? What are your ethics on the situation?


Originally posted by 'G':
I think they should be brined and roasted before they are shelled.



Shelling civilians in the wrong order - before brining, then roasting - offends your ethics.




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Sunday, October 25, 2015 12:44 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Because I pointed out how 'deep' your concerns were for civilians who were being shelled by Kiev. They were so 'deep', when asked directly, you joked about it.

I think most people understand your post and what it means about you.



Here's 'G', protesting Kiev shelling cities and civilians

http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=58499&p=14

Originally posted by 'G':
I think they should be brined and roasted before they are shelled.





SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Monday, October 26, 2015 1:46 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Do you really think someone thinks bombing civilians is ok?
Yes, you.

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Monday, October 26, 2015 10:42 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Originally posted by G:
Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

Do you really think someone thinks bombing civilians is ok?
Yes, you.



Hey! You out dumbed Kiki! I would not have believed it possible!

So you really haven't been reading my posts?

Me: "The realities of war: civilians suffer the most and deserve it the least. "


You see it again and again with these two. Disagree with them and they will decide that you are a neocon or 'Auraptor'. Disagree with them for long enough and they will say that you are a fascist, a Nazi, pro-ISIS, pro female genital mutilation - basically there's no limit to the kind of sick, evil individual they will fervently believe you to be.

It's completely childish and emotion-driven, and not worth anything more than an eye-roll.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Monday, October 26, 2015 6:34 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.



Here's 'G', protesting Kiev shelling cities and civilians, in his own words:

I think they should be brined and roasted before they are shelled.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=58499&p=14


I invite everyone to examine the thread to find 'G' offering a genuine protest, no matter how faint or indirect, to the atrocities.




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Monday, October 26, 2015 8:02 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by G:
Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
You see it again and again with these two. Disagree with them and they will decide that you are a neocon or 'Auraptor'. Disagree with them for long enough and they will say that you are a fascist, a Nazi, pro-ISIS, pro female genital mutilation - basically there's no limit to the kind of sick, evil individual they will fervently believe you to be.

It's completely childish and emotion-driven, and not worth anything more than an eye-roll.



Yeah - they're so obvious and ultimately such a waste. Agenda before Truth. I've known a few people who have lived what I would call a dishonest life for so long, and are so invested in it, that their ego won't let them consider anything that is contrary. Part of it is this very thing: create exaggerated and fabricated responses and beliefs and pin them on anyone who might question them. Makes it easier for them to keep justifying their singular, bent outlook. Teabaggers come to mind. Sad.



This isn't about you saying what they claim you said, in the context they outlined G. We all know you never suggested it is alright to bomb civilians. This is about distorting the facts (as they always do) and putting you on the defensive to keep the focus off comrade half pint. Sorry, comrade quarter pint.

The real point here is why in the hell did Russians let themselves fall prey to another dictator. What is it that's in SIG and 1kiki's DNA that keeps them for realizing they are of the type that needs to be led around by the nose, and makes them believe, do and say anything they are told?


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Monday, October 26, 2015 9:26 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Here's 'G', protesting Kiev shelling cities and civilians, in his own words:

I think they should be brined and roasted before they are shelled.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=58499&p=14


'G' The realities of war: civilians suffer the most and deserve it the least. = kpo It's not personal. It's just war.

I invite everyone to examine the thread to find 'G' offering a genuine protest, no matter how faint or indirect, to the atrocities. Even some SMALL expression of regret will do. Something other than an impersonal statement, to indicate he prefers it be avoided, or that he feels dismay that it happens ...




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Monday, October 26, 2015 10:08 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:


I invite everyone to examine the thread to find 'G' offering a genuine protest, no matter how faint or indirect, to the atrocities. Even some SMALL expression of regret will do. Something other than an impersonal statement, to indicate he prefers it be avoided, or that he feels dismay that it happens ...



So it's not what G posted but what he didn't post that proves he thinks it's ok to kill civilians. WOW, WOW, WOW, you are a sick woman.


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Tuesday, October 27, 2015 12:19 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.



THUGGR

Humanitarian. (snicker)
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=58208&p=5
Who gives a shit?


and the epitome of evidence and reason
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=58499&p=29#
1003717

and here is your cite

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ...




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Tuesday, October 27, 2015 3:07 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


'G'

I find the links Signy provided extremely helpful. Don't you? For example, SignyM posted about your response to this (with link):

KPO is a sick person who justifies firebombing of Dresden with the idea that
1) It served an overall military objective, and therefore the firebombing of a civilian city center was collateral damage, and
2) It wasn't personal, it was "just" war.
I think KPO has pretty much eliminated himself as a moral person who has anything of importance to say on ANY ethical matters, especially on the matters of war, terrorism, and civilian deaths. Whatever he might say about Russian invasion of anywhere, we should all bear in mind that his ethics are extremely bendable, especially when it comes to justifying the actions of "his" side.
Also, KPO is a propagandist who want to control what people read and hear, because if they stray from KPO_approved "pure" sources they (in KPO's mind) are exposing themselves to unacceptable propaganda (as opposed to acceptable propaganda, I suppose).
Just my $0.02.


And your response was this:

I knew it! KPO is worse than Satan!

Your reply to this particular discussion? Has nothing to do with those quotes. You label her post a lie ... and then go on to discuss something entirely different ... AS IF it was part of the original conversation.

So, speaking of lies - you may need to get a fire extinguisher for your pants.

Basically 'G', you've already exposed what you are with months, and months, and months of posts. If you're trying to change anyone's opinion of you with misdirection, lying and obfuscation, it's not working. Not only are you failing miserably to prove your point, you're only highlighting even more - if that's at all possible - how dishonest you are.

You relentlessly criticize one side, but stay completely silent on any atrocity committed by the US or its flunkies. You've exposed your own claims to the moral high ground to be the frauds they are. And your inability to honestly discuss anything, at any level, has already revealed you to be a coward.

You are one pathetic twist.





SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Tuesday, October 27, 2015 6:15 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

You are one pathetic twist.

Kiki there's a couple of instances there of you and Sig saying absurd and hysterical things, and G mocking you for it. But you don't realise, and take his words completely seriously - it's embarrassing.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Tuesday, October 27, 2015 9:06 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

You are one pathetic twist.- KIKI
Kiki there's a couple of instances there of you and Sig saying absurd and hysterical things, and G mocking you for it. But you don't realise, and take his words completely seriously - it's embarrassing.- KPO

So, KPO, how do we explain YOUR posts? Especially the ones you repeat over and over?

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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