REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

How Nations Fail (USA, Take a Hint}

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 03:54
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VIEWED: 1619
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Sunday, October 19, 2014 12:34 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Dozens of organizations were established to structure that co-operation. But then, in yet another fountain of unintended consequences, something man is better at than just about anything else, we let those organizations loose upon the world without ever asking what happened to what they were intended for, or whether the original grounds for founding them still existed, and whether they should perhaps be abolished or put on a tight leash.

These are questions that should be asked about any large-scale organization. Be they multinational corporations, global banks, Google or indeed the United States of America. We can’t just assume these powers, which gather more power as time goes by, share and serve the purposes of the people. What if they gradually come to serve only their own purpose, and it contradicts that of the people? Should we not get that leash out?

Turns out, we never do. If someone would suggest today to break up the USA, because its present status contradicts that which the Founding Fathers had in mind (and there are plenty of arguments to be made that such contradictions exist in plain view), (s)he would not even be sent to a nuthouse, because no-one would take him/her serious enough to do so.

But wealth inequality still rises rapidly within America, and it doesn’t serve the people. So why does it happen, and why do we let it? Because the inequality that matters most is not wealth, but power. And we’ve been made to believe that we still have that power, but we don’t. Voting in elections has the same function today as singing around a Christmas tree: everyone feels a strong emotional connection, but it’s all just become one giant TV commercial.


http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-10-18/wealth-inequality-not-problem
-it%E2%80%99s-symptom


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Sunday, October 19, 2014 3:40 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Voting in elections has the same function today as singing around a Christmas tree

I can see how it might seem that way to a disenfranchised radical.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Sunday, October 19, 2014 3:48 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Yeah, well, you think 'Maggie Thatcher milk snatcher' was a great leader, despite the fact that she threw millions into poverty in the interests of an industry that dissolved shortly afterwards - though those deep wells of poverty she created still remain. Apparently her Greatness is based on the Falklands War. You don't agree with progressive taxation - you think the wealthy 'deserve' all their money and the poor 'deserve' their fate. You don't think votes count for determining the future, and you dismiss opinion polls and massive dislocation because of war - because, in your opinion, it's for some as yet to be determined 'greater good'.

You REALLY don't care about people - about what provides for their needs, serves their interests, or reflects their opinions. You believe in a society of the Roman arena and the war of all against all. You believe those who can't 'make it' should be efficiently scrubbed from the competition without further consideration. Your goals are personal wealth and to be counted among the elite. You yearn for a return of Imperial Splendor and Might. And whomever or whatever stands in the way is damned. You are a neo-liberal, another way of saying fascist in so many words. We already know that about you, rapPO.






SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Sunday, October 19, 2014 4:39 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Yeah, well, you think 'Maggie Thatcher milk snatcher' was a great leader, despite the fact that she threw millions into poverty in the interests of an industry that dissolved shortly afterwards - though those deep wells of poverty she created still remain. Apparently her Greatness is based on the Falklands War. You don't agree with progressive taxation...

I would love to see quotes with links for all of this...

Quote:

You believe in a society of the Roman arena and the war of all against all. You believe those who can't 'make it' should be efficiently scrubbed from the competition without further consideration. Your goals are personal wealth and to be counted among the elite. You yearn for a return of Imperial Splendor and Might. And whomever or whatever stands in the way is damned. You are a neo-liberal, another way of saying fascist in so many words. We already know that about you, rapPO.

All just, too funny

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Sunday, October 19, 2014 4:44 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Whatever.

Denying your own past posts - another rap trait. Your mutation is complete, rapPO. Enjoy.




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:01 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"I think an economy is an organic thing ..."

Very much a Darwinism notion - that economies are natural things, that evolution runs by direct competition, and that death is the fate of the non-competative.

"... and regardless of what you want it to be you have to give it freedom and room to grow."

This is you lauding Maggie Thatcher's union-busting, and shuttering and sale of government-run corporations.

"Otherwise you choke the life out of it."

Sounds like pro-business ideology to me.

"A pre-Thatcher UK economy is not one I would like to live in."

Despite the fact that it had far lower poverty levels. So, lots of poverty is - to you - a non-issue.

"Conservatives have a point that there *is* a fundamental unfairness in the tax system - a lot of people pay in MORE than they get out. ... wealthy people have a duty to pay more? Why?"

Yep. Those are all your opinions.




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:32 PM

JO753

rezident owtsidr


I think the most interesting thing about America iz that the goverment haz alwayz seemed like a total on the ej uv ruin mess to the people living in it at the time and yet here it iz 238 yirz later, still bungling along on top uv the world.

Rich people hav alwayz been grabbing az much uv the wealth az they can get away with.

Its alwayz been 2 rival gangz vying for power rather than doing their jobz.

An organization loozez its reazon to exist az soon az its no longer an advantaj to be a member. Hard to figure it tho. Its certainly a huje advantaj for the top 10 or 20%, but everybody els....

----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.nooalf.com

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Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:58 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Oh dear. KPO was called on his bullshit. [/snicker]

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns. But by god, KPO keeps trying!

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Monday, October 20, 2014 12:21 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
"I think an economy is an organic thing ..."

Very much a Darwinism notion - that economies are natural things, that evolution runs by direct competition, and that death is the fate of the non-competative.

"... and regardless of what you want it to be you have to give it freedom and room to grow."

This is you lauding Maggie Thatcher's union-busting, and shuttering and sale of government-run corporations.

"Otherwise you choke the life out of it."

Sounds like pro-business ideology to me.

"A pre-Thatcher UK economy is not one I would like to live in."

Despite the fact that it had far lower poverty levels. So, lots of poverty is - to you - a non-issue.

"Conservatives have a point that there *is* a fundamental unfairness in the tax system - a lot of people pay in MORE than they get out. ... wealthy people have a duty to pay more? Why?"

Yep. Those are all your opinions.


I guessed that your answer would be heavy with (your own) paraphrasing, and that you wouldn't provide a link, for the original context. And I was right.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Monday, October 20, 2014 1:01 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


rapPO

I quoted you directly. See those quote marks? Those are your words in full.

I was wondering when you were going to advance to the next rappy-step - I NEVER POSTED THAT! I NEVER MEANT THAT! The cry of liars and cowards everywhere.

BTW - even without direct quotes it took me under a minute to find those posts. I'm amazed you can't seem to manage at all even with those helpful words. And FWIW I have ALL of your quotes archived. I FULLY expect you to move on to post-editing, just like rappy, just like THUG.

You'd think that having your own words reflected back to you would give you pause ... how did you get to the point of blatantly denying YOUR OWN WORDS ... but you'd MUCH rather sell your mental integrity to 'win' an exchange and maintain a belief. That's another rappy trait. You, crappy, G, THUG, Jongsie, rapSF - work by the same internal mechanisms. You're so invested in your beliefs you literally can't admit facts into your thinking.

I remember when rappy started down that path. He was warned repeatedly that he was walking away from mental stability and the ability to connect with reality. All to no avail. I fully expect you to complete your evolution to the exact same endpoint: a fully propagandized drone who will deny mountains of facts - the way rappy denies global warming - in order to maintain your cherished beliefs. And you'll start small, like he did - you'll shave the truth, you'll play word games, you'll argue irrelevant points ... but before long you'll be in full, florid rappy-mode. You're already mostly there. You just need to post-edit and post RapFacts to take those last few steps.




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Monday, October 20, 2014 4:20 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


This is what Jared Diamond says

Quote:

He also lists 12 environmental problems facing humankind today. The first eight have historically contributed to the collapse of past societies:

Deforestation and habitat destruction
Soil problems (erosion, salinization, and soil fertility losses)
Water management problems
Overhunting
Overfishing
Effects of introduced species on native species
Overpopulation
Increased per-capita impact of people

Further, he says four new factors may contribute to the weakening and collapse of present and future societies:

Anthropogenic climate change
Buildup of toxins in the environment
Energy shortages
Full human use of the Earth’s photosynthetic capacity



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Monday, October 20, 2014 7:52 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

Dozens of organizations were established to structure that co-operation. But then, in yet another fountain of unintended consequences, something man is better at than just about anything else, we let those organizations loose upon the world without ever asking what happened to what they were intended for, or whether the original grounds for founding them still existed, and whether they should perhaps be abolished or put on a tight leash.

These are questions that should be asked about any large-scale organization. Be they multinational corporations, global banks, Google or indeed the United States of America. We can’t just assume these powers, which gather more power as time goes by, share and serve the purposes of the people. What if they gradually come to serve only their own purpose, and it contradicts that of the people? Should we not get that leash out?

Turns out, we never do. If someone would suggest today to break up the USA, because its present status contradicts that which the Founding Fathers had in mind (and there are plenty of arguments to be made that such contradictions exist in plain view), (s)he would not even be sent to a nuthouse, because no-one would take him/her serious enough to do so.

But wealth inequality still rises rapidly within America, and it doesn’t serve the people. So why does it happen, and why do we let it? Because the inequality that matters most is not wealth, but power. And we’ve been made to believe that we still have that power, but we don’t. Voting in elections has the same function today as singing around a Christmas tree: everyone feels a strong emotional connection, but it’s all just become one giant TV commercial.


http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-10-18/wealth-inequality-not-problem
-it%E2%80%99s-symptom




Russia will be long gone first. Perhaps you should be sending your warning out to them.


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Monday, October 20, 2014 8:26 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Interesting proposition, especially the idea that power buys wealth faster than wealth buys power. And where does the deep state - which I've become convinced exists - fit in?




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Tuesday, October 21, 2014 2:20 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

rapPO

I quoted you directly. See those quote marks?


I don't reject the quotes, I reject the false paraphrasing, and the failure to provide the link for the real context.

Quote:

And FWIW I have ALL of your quotes archived. I FULLY expect you to move on to post-editing, just like rappy, just like THUG.

Lol, you already accused me of fascist post-editing.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Tuesday, October 21, 2014 2:30 PM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Whatever.

Denying your own past posts - another rap trait. Your mutation is complete, rapPO. Enjoy.




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.


Making a claim about someone, and when asked to back it up, refusing and claiming that everyone knows, is also very rappy-like.



“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'”? Isaac Asimov

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Wednesday, October 22, 2014 1:23 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Russia will be long gone first. Perhaps you should be sending your warning out to them.
Another pointless post from THUGR.

Just sayin'.


--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Wednesday, October 22, 2014 1:25 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Making a claim about someone, and when asked to back it up, refusing and claiming that everyone knows, is also very rappy-like.
Apparently I missed quite a conversation! But I found the quotes to be revealing. Didn't you?

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Wednesday, October 22, 2014 3:54 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

Making a claim about someone, and when asked to back it up, refusing and claiming that everyone knows, is also very rappy-like.
Apparently I missed quite a conversation! But I found the quotes to be revealing. Didn't you?


Checking the quotes again I was dubious about the last one, so I googled it:

This is what Kiki 'quoted' - "Conservatives have a point that there *is* a fundamental unfairness in the tax system - a lot of people pay in MORE than they get out. ... wealthy people have a duty to pay more? Why?"

This is my actual post:

Quote:

Conservatives have a point that there *is* a fundamental unfairness in the tax system - a lot of people pay in MORE than they get out. And a lot of people pay in LESS than they pay in. That's a fundamental unfairness. You can make enlightened arguments other types of fairness - like equality of opportunity, and income inequality (although is that last one unfair?), but conservatives will just keep hammering on about this one fundamental unfairness (as usual liberals are making cerebral arguments, and conservatives are making primal arguments).

So my approach is to directly counter the right-wing argument. To paint the picture of a world that meets the right-wing ideal of 'fairness'. Where people pay in similar to what they get out. Where taxes go up on the middle class 500-1000% and the rich pay so little as a proportion of what they earn, that they don't even feel it. What a wonderful world that would be! Let's move the tax code in that direction!



The 'wealthy people have a duty to pay more? Why?' bit isn't even there; she spliced that from another post. And she made a point of completely ignoring the context. No wonder she didn't post any links!

Here's the link, I can't wait for her accusations of post editing...

http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=53437&mid=9
17127


It's not personal. It's just war.

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