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What New Zealand Could Teach US About Indigenous Culture

POSTED BY: MAGONSDAUGHTER
UPDATED: Monday, July 24, 2023 09:59
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Monday, October 13, 2014 4:22 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


An interesting article.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/13/-sp-new-zealand-teach-us-
race-sport-ceremonies-legal-treaties


Brenda, I don't know what you feel about where Canada sits on these issues. Australia has a terrible record, just shameful.

Also, got to love the Haka.

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Monday, October 13, 2014 7:29 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Mistakes were made long before there even WAS a United States of America. And of course, more were made after.

Not all situations are the same.

Hell, thanks to the PC Nazis, even where folks DO try to honor the indigenous people, some lone idiot is " offended " and everything gets tossed in the garbage.



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Monday, October 13, 2014 10:24 PM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Mistakes were made long before there even WAS a United States of America. And of course, more were made after.


Who says? Imposing 21st century ethics and morality on events from the past is like trying to put the egg back into the chicken.... you might be able to force the issue, but the chicken ain't gonna be doing a happy dance any time soon.

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Tuesday, October 14, 2014 4:22 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Mistakes were made long before there even WAS a United States of America. And of course, more were made after.

Not all situations are the same.

Hell, thanks to the PC Nazis, even where folks DO try to honor the indigenous people, some lone idiot is " offended " and everything gets tossed in the garbage.





Oh, you started off almost intelligently and then the Rightwingnut chip kicked in.

Perhaps if you read the article, you might have seen an example of how things might be different had different decisions been made in history and we could have had a conversation about that.

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Tuesday, October 14, 2014 4:22 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:

Who says? Imposing 21st century ethics and morality on events from the past is like trying to put the egg back into the chicken.... you might be able to force the issue, but the chicken ain't gonna be doing a happy dance any time soon.



Isn't that what Hitler said?

LOL<

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Tuesday, October 14, 2014 4:26 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Oh, you started off almost intelligently and then the Rightwingnut chip kicked in.

Perhaps if you read the article, you might have seen an example of how things might be different had different decisions been made in history and we could have had a conversation about that.




There was no 'rightwingnut ' chip which kicked in. I was referencing the lunacy of what's going on here in the states, the all out media shaming of some sports teams for their use of anything remotely having to do w/ native Americans as a mascot.

There are no completely right or wrong positions here.


Yeah, it would be nice if things had gone differently. I don't think anyone disagrees on that point.


http://i.guim.co.uk/static/w-620/h--/q-95/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pict
ures/2014/9/25/1411614681191/04b03176-5c00-4aa6-99fb-acdef57d42ac-620x395.jpeg

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Sunday, October 26, 2014 2:26 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Oh no, I thank you for your perspective from Canada, which I always understood to be a little more progressive in that area.

Even though NZ is so close, I know too little about Maori culture and history, but I understand that as Polynesians they were farmers and warriors, so they stood more of a chance than Australian Aboriginals who were largely hunter/gatherer cultures, with multiple language groups, who did not have the history of warfare that the Maoris did. The technological gap was just too large, they were regarded, and treated as little more than animals, and their efforts to fight back rarely succeeded.

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Sunday, October 26, 2014 3:44 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Oh yes, an astonishing number of languages and language roots in fact. Testimount to the enormous amount of history with which they have occupied this land. Probably at least 60,000 years.



Awhile ago, I read many People series books Kahttp:// www.gear-gear.com/index.php/the-books/people-books. I learnt a great deal about the people who lived on the Americas before white settlement, and I was surpised by the diversity of societies that existed regionally and historically. I'm interested in whether you have read, or heard of this series and what your thoughts are on it's accuracy.

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Monday, October 27, 2014 6:18 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Brenda:

It's not just about sports in my mind. Cars, clothes too feature what I consider inapporpriate titles. What if someone were to name a car "Irish", I am sure there would be someone up in arms about it.

Sports things like "redskin" are wrong because it takes away from the historic context of it. Bounties were paid on Indian heads that were scalped. The head was brought in without the body.



I'm missing your point about naming a car 'Irish'. The Notre Dame 'Fighting Irish' is seen as a prestigious brand by most.

As for 'Redskins', the actual historic context is that the owner was attempting to honor man who would be the first coach and his heritage. No owner would start a franchise w/ the intent of mocking a group of people and make HIS team a negative brand name. it's the LAST thing he or any owner would want to do.

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Tuesday, October 28, 2014 6:58 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by Brenda:
Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Oh yes, an astonishing number of languages and language roots in fact. Testimount to the enormous amount of history with which they have occupied this land. Probably at least 60,000 years.



Awhile ago, I read many People series books Kahttp:// www.gear-gear.com/index.php/the-books/people-books. I learnt a great deal about the people who lived on the Americas before white settlement, and I was surpised by the diversity of societies that existed regionally and historically. I'm interested in whether you have read, or heard of this series and what your thoughts are on it's accuracy.




That is a fascinating map you posted Magon. I stepped out to take a closer look at it. An incredible array of languages spoken.

I've not heard of these books, so I had a look at your link and though the writers are scientists you have to keep in mind that they are writing for the general public. Which is why and also the first book came out in 1990, they are still referencing the land bridge.
It's known now that the interior of the American continent was still covered in ice. And new archaeological evidence has shown that the first Americans walked down the west coast of Canada and some of the US to get onto the continent. The ice free corridor wasn't ice free at 10,000years.

The earliest settlement that I know of is 30,000years and that is South America. Most tribes I would say have been here 25,000years.

The last to come over before the bridge melted were the Inuit, the people who live in the arctic regions of Canada and Alaska.



Fascinating Brenda.

I enjoyed aspects of those books, but recognise they are fantasy. They still opened my eyes to the diversity of cultures, even if they are kind of filling in some of the gaps.

So what about films that depict First Nation people? Have you seen Black Robe? http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0101465/ If so, what are your thoughts about the depiction of the various tribes depicted. The film tends to make the distinction in cultures, but it's pretty harsh.



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Tuesday, October 28, 2014 9:29 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


G - that makes no sense, what so ever.

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Tuesday, October 28, 2014 12:18 PM

TRIXY


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Oh, you started off almost intelligently and then the Rightwingnut chip kicked in.

Perhaps if you read the article, you might have seen an example of how things might be different had different decisions been made in history and we could have had a conversation about that.




There was no 'rightwingnut ' chip which kicked in. I was referencing the lunacy of what's going on here in the states, the all out media shaming of some sports teams for their use of anything remotely having to do w/ native Americans as a mascot.

There are no completely right or wrong positions here.


Yeah, it would be nice if things had gone differently. I don't think anyone disagrees on that point.


http://i.guim.co.uk/static/w-620/h--/q-95/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pict
ures/2014/9/25/1411614681191/04b03176-5c00-4aa6-99fb-acdef57d42ac-620x395.jpeg



Are you refering to the Redskins? Because that controversy has nothing to do with a mascot and everything to do with the use of a racial slur as a team name.

If not than I dont really have an issue with your statement.

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Tuesday, October 28, 2014 1:04 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


It's not a racial slur. It wasn't intended to be when the Redskins first entered the league in 1932, and it's not today.

This is all just a bunch of P.C. thuggery. And nothing more.

Just so we're clear, is use of ANY form of Indian / Native depiction now designated as " racist " ?

Braves ?

Seminoles ?

Chiefs ?

Should we just erase ALL images and references to pre European people who lived in the land commonly referred to today as 'The Americas ' ?

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Tuesday, October 28, 2014 3:12 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


I believe you ask the people who get called/have called those names and then see how they feel about them being in common use. If they see them as racist, then you stop using them.


The word 'nigger' wasn't intended originally as a racial or derogative slur. It derives from the the latin word for black. But only a fool would argue that it's original more benign usage would justify it's use in the present day.

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Tuesday, October 28, 2014 4:21 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Don't recall the' N ' word ever being used as a compliment, or in a positive light.

However casually it may have been tossed around, it was used in a derogatory and demeaning manner.

And no TEAM I ever heard of proudly took on the banner of a name which was intentionally was derogatory to a group of people.

I doubt ' Go Gooks ! ' , or ' Whollup 'em Wops ! ' would make for endearing cheers.


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Tuesday, October 28, 2014 5:02 PM

TRIXY


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Don't recall the' N ' word ever being used as a compliment, or in a positive light.

However casually it may have been tossed around, it was used in a derogatory and demeaning manner.

And no TEAM I ever heard of proudly took on the banner of a name which was intentionally was derogatory to a group of people.

I doubt ' Go Gooks ! ' , or ' Whollup 'em Wops ! ' would make for endearing cheers.




Please god show me an example where the term Redskin was used in a complementary matter without undermining the culture and beliefs of the people it was describing.....

The Washington Redskins name is the equivalent of there being a Carolina Negro's (not quite Niggers- but this should fit the bill) or a Kansas Crackers....

I don't want to get into the history of the team name. As the team was named what it is to avoid a name conflict with the Braves at the time. However, in valuing the history of the club over the history of the 24 tribes that have advocated for it's change we are basically spitting in the face of a people that long predate the Redskins franchise.

Moreover, I can't seem to figure out why the hell it is such a big deal to change the name. I understand that merchandising is affected from a business perspective, however what is lost can easily be made up. NFL franchises are among the wealthiest sports franchises in the World....


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Tuesday, October 28, 2014 5:18 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



There actually WAS a team called the Crackers, here in Atlanta. A minor league professional baseball team.


No one whined about the name then.

From Wiki -


According to Tim Darnell, who wrote The Crackers: Early Days of Atlanta Baseball, the origins of the team name is unknown.[5]

Darnell cites several possibilities as to why this name was chosen:

A term that means a poor, white southerner.
Someone who is quick and efficient at a task.
In reference to plowboys who cracked the whip over animals.
A shortened version of "Atlanta Firecrackers", the earlier 1892 minor league team.

However, this list does not represent the most likely origins of the name. The term "cracker" is derived from the Gaelic "craic", meaning entertaining conversation or boasting.[6] It was used in the 18th century to denote Irish and Scottish colonists of the Deep South backcountry. The Earl of Dartmouth had this to say in a 1766 correspondence: "I should explain to your Lordship what is meant by Crackers; a name they have got from being great boasters; they are a lawless set of rascalls on the frontiers of Virginia, Maryland, the Carolinas, and Georgia, who often change their places of abode."[6]

During the period of Reconstruction following the American Civil War, there was also a political party of the same name. Organized in Augusta, Georgia, this party's platform was one of "opposition to Catholics and segregation of blacks."[7]

While now sometimes used as a derogatory term for a white southerner that promotes racism, it is also used as a term of pride by white southerners to indicate one that is descended from those original settlers of the area.[6] It is much more likely that the Atlanta Crackers derived their name from the more positive usage, indicating they were proud to be Georgians.

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Tuesday, October 28, 2014 11:58 PM

TRIXY


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

There actually WAS a team called the Crackers, here in Atlanta. A minor league professional baseball team.


No one whined about the name then.

From Wiki -


According to Tim Darnell, who wrote The Crackers: Early Days of Atlanta Baseball, the origins of the team name is unknown.[5]

Darnell cites several possibilities as to why this name was chosen:

A term that means a poor, white southerner.
Someone who is quick and efficient at a task.
In reference to plowboys who cracked the whip over animals.
A shortened version of "Atlanta Firecrackers", the earlier 1892 minor league team.

However, this list does not represent the most likely origins of the name. The term "cracker" is derived from the Gaelic "craic", meaning entertaining conversation or boasting.[6] It was used in the 18th century to denote Irish and Scottish colonists of the Deep South backcountry. The Earl of Dartmouth had this to say in a 1766 correspondence: "I should explain to your Lordship what is meant by Crackers; a name they have got from being great boasters; they are a lawless set of rascalls on the frontiers of Virginia, Maryland, the Carolinas, and Georgia, who often change their places of abode."[6]

During the period of Reconstruction following the American Civil War, there was also a political party of the same name. Organized in Augusta, Georgia, this party's platform was one of "opposition to Catholics and segregation of blacks."[7]

While now sometimes used as a derogatory term for a white southerner that promotes racism, it is also used as a term of pride by white southerners to indicate one that is descended from those original settlers of the area.[6] It is much more likely that the Atlanta Crackers derived their name from the more positive usage, indicating they were proud to be Georgians.



That's frigen hilarious

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Wednesday, October 29, 2014 7:11 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by Brenda:


I haven't seen the "Black Robe" but read the description on it and maybe it is something that I should check out as it seems to be a fairly accurate portrait of life in the east. The Iroquois were a violent people, the game of lacrosse that they invented was a blood sport to them. And it's true they had enemies amongst the other eastern tribes.


From memory they were depicted as very violent. There is a few scenes in that film that stand out for their cruelty. I do believe the film makers distinguised between tribes and aggression. A number of Indigenous languages were used in this film but I think some First Nation people were offended. I would be interested to hear your response if you ever get around to watching it.

Quote:


A later film talked about the residentail schools and the effect it had on the children who were taken away from their families and peoples. One of the first scenes in that film showed the teachers waiting at the front door for the children. Both boys and girls had their hair in two braids, as they entered the school the braids were cut off.
That scene about made me sick.



Sadly, this was similar to what happened to many Aboriginal people, where children were forceable removed and either adopted - if could pass as white - or taken away to missions or trained as servant.

Rabbit Proof Fence http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0252444/ is a film which deals with this topic, based on a true story.

Thanks for all the over recommends, I will check out the Jimmy Stewart film. I loved Dances With Wolves, it was the first film I saw that really explored Native American culture in a such a sympathetic way.

What about Jeremiah Johnson? Still a white man's view, but more complex.

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Thursday, October 30, 2014 12:59 AM

OONJERAH



The OP, the article linked tells us what worked for the Maori as well as
NZ's English-speaking citizens.

I never heard of anything like this, just basically accepting & respecting
a native people instead of conquering!! I am amazed! I will share this.

I wonder if it's too late for the rest of us to learn it?



... oooOO}{OOooo ...

Part of being smart is knowing what you're dumb at.

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Thursday, October 30, 2014 6:10 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Brenda:

"Dances with Wolves" is one of my favourites too, though I have heard people bad mouth it. That film saddens me too as it portrays the end of the Horse Culture of the plains Indians.



Been to Montana and the site of The Battle of the Little Bighorn. That area, as well as S. Dakota and Wyoming, really is amazing.

I believe the Dances with Wolves story is suppose to take place in Kansas ? But I read where it's filmed in S. Dakota, Wyoming, etc..., which is the part of the country I got to see. Pretty cool.

Quote:



I've never sat down and watched "Jeremiah Johnson" all the way through because I don't like Robert Redford.




What'd he ever do to you ?

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Thursday, October 30, 2014 8:07 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


I'm not mad on Robert Redford either, but I liked him in JJ.

A NZ film about modern Maori culture is 'The Whale Rider' which I can recommend.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0298228/

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Thursday, October 30, 2014 8:55 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Brenda:

Cool on the actually visiting the site of the Little Big Horn. I've only seen it in documentaries. It is on my Bucket List. One of many sites and places I would like to see in the US.

Honestly, I'm not sure where Dances is suppose to be set. Might have been Kansas but the scenery for the film is fantastic.

So sue me. I prefeer his friend Paul Newman to him. I've seen "Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid" one too many times.



Oh, no difference to me. I just hadn't heard anyone dislike Redford unless it was for some specific issue. Newman was something else too.

Wyoming, S.Dakota, Montana...sure is a different world out there. A bit 'rustic' in places, though still amazing. Devil's Tower was a hoot to see in person as well.

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Friday, October 31, 2014 4:56 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by Brenda:
Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
I'm not mad on Robert Redford either, but I liked him in JJ.

A NZ film about modern Maori culture is 'The Whale Rider' which I can recommend.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0298228/]



I'll have to take a closer look at JJ. Might be able to find it on YouTube.

I've heard "The Whale Rider" is a good film.

I've seen one film on the Maori and it was called "Once Were Warriors". It's a modern film done in the 1980s, I think. It's a bit on the depressing side as it deals with alcoholism, an unfortunate trap that has plagued the American and Canadian Indian. So, I can recognize some parallels in it to here.

I just looked it up and it is set in 1994 and based on a book that was published in 1990.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0110729



I've seen it. very powerful and very depressing.

I just revisited 'I heard the owl call my name' I loved the book and remember the movie fondly, but it's not stood the test of time, sadly.

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Tuesday, May 7, 2019 11:23 AM

JAYNEZTOWN


Weed, Booze, politicians and Tv might fix everything

https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/388638/cannabis-referendum-to
-be-a-yes-no-question-govt-confirms


New Zealand government confirms cannabis legalisation referendum at 2020 general election

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Wednesday, January 18, 2023 10:04 PM

JAYNEZTOWN


Maori culture in New Zealand


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Monday, July 24, 2023 9:59 AM

JAYNEZTOWN


A dozen Kiwi artists descended on Arthur Boyd’s property. Here’s what came next
https://www.smh.com.au/culture/art-and-design/a-dozen-kiwi-artists-des
cended-on-arthur-boyd-s-property-here-s-what-came-next-20230717-p5dozj.html



and back to politics


New Zealand’s justice minister resigns after being charged with reckless driving and resisting arrest.
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/494338/kiri-allan-charged-with-rec
kless-driving-and-resisting-arrest-resigns-as-justice-minister-pm-says

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