REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Emerging solar plants scorch birds in mid-air

POSTED BY: GEEZER
UPDATED: Wednesday, August 20, 2014 10:19
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VIEWED: 3918
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Monday, August 18, 2014 7:57 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Unintended consequences strike again.

Quote:

IVANPAH DRY LAKE, Calif. (AP) -- Workers at a state-of-the-art solar plant in the Mojave Desert have a name for birds that fly through the plant's concentrated sun rays -- "streamers," for the smoke plume that comes from birds that ignite in midair

Federal wildlife investigators who visited the BrightSource Energy plant last year and watched as birds burned and fell, reporting an average of one "streamer" every two minutes, are urging California officials to halt the operator's application to build a still-bigger version.

The investigators want the halt until the full extent of the deaths can be assessed. Estimates per year now range from a low of about a thousand by BrightSource to 28,000 by an expert for the Center for Biological Diversity environmental group.

The deaths are "alarming. It's hard to say whether that's the location or the technology," said Garry George, renewable-energy director for the California chapter of the Audubon Society. "There needs to be some caution."

The bird kills mark the latest instance in which the quest for clean energy sometimes has inadvertent environmental harm. Solar farms have been criticized for their impacts on desert tortoises, and wind farms have killed birds, including numerous raptors.

"We take this issue very seriously," said Jeff Holland, a spokesman for NRG Solar of Carlsbad, California, the second of the three companies behind the plant. The third, Google, deferred comment to its partners.

The $2.2 billion plant, which launched in February, is at Ivanpah Dry Lake near the California-Nevada border. The operator says it is the world's biggest plant to employ so-called power towers.

More than 300,000 mirrors, each the size of a garage door, reflect solar rays onto three boiler towers each looming up to 40 stories high. The water inside is heated to produce steam, which turns turbines that generate enough electricity for 140,000 homes.

Sun rays sent up by the field of mirrors are bright enough to dazzle pilots flying in and out of Las Vegas and Los Angeles.

Federal wildlife officials said Ivanpah might act as a "mega-trap" for wildlife, with the bright light of the plant attracting insects, which in turn attract insect-eating birds that fly to their death in the intensely focused light rays.

Federal and state biologists call the number of deaths significant, based on sightings of birds getting singed and falling, and on retrieval of carcasses with feathers charred too severely for flight.



http://www.wtop.com/884/3683752/Emerging-solar-plants-scorch-birds-in-
mid-air

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Monday, August 18, 2014 8:06 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Obama's wisdom of bankrupting the coal industry is paying off big time, huh?

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Monday, August 18, 2014 10:08 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Problematic type, depends on a tall tower, which requires an elevated volume of concentrated sunlight


Low-to-the-ground solar collecting tubes
http://www.seia.org/sites/default/files/CSP-parabolic-trough.JPG

Low-to-the-ground parabolic collectors


It seems like they should be looking at other technologies.

There is no power-generating technology without some consequence. Carbon-based fuel burning adds carbon dioxide to the atmo. Hydroelectric dams, unless situated on a natural waterfall, drown upstream valleys and interrupt fish migration. Wind turbines can cause bird strikes, and apparently cause a disturbing low-frequency hum. Even proposed tidal energy capture seems like it could the interfere with the ability of estuaries to be cleansed by tidal action. The BEST solution is energy conservation.

--------------
THUGR is a know-nothing militarist.

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Monday, August 18, 2014 10:42 AM

REAVERFAN


Solar and wind tech continues to develop. It's getting both safer and more efficient every day.

The only people who fight it are the fossil fuel giants.

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Monday, August 18, 2014 10:50 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Part of the problem is that the utilities want to keep building big installations, which will justify a rate increase from the PUC. Small, distributed units (like rooftop solar panels and "eggbeater" windmills) are less efficient but also less disruptive, as they're placed in already-developed neighborhoods in small form.

Small windmill (see vertical+windmill for more info)


Solar neighborhood



--------------
THUGR is a know-nothing militarist.

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Monday, August 18, 2014 6:13 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Obama's wisdom of bankrupting the coal industry is paying off big time, huh?


That's just crazy talk.

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Monday, August 18, 2014 6:18 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by reaverfan:
Solar and wind tech continues to develop. It's getting both safer and more efficient every day.

The only people who fight it are the fossil fuel giants.



Mindlessly spoken like a true warm-mongering myrmidon.


Safer ? Tell that to the birds.

@ Siggy - ya know who ELSE wants to block big green energy installations ?

Cape Cod Commission denies Cape Wind application

Fri Oct 19, 2007

NEW YORK (Reuters) – The Cape Cod Commission in Massachusetts Thursday denied Cape Wind’s application to bury electric cables needed to connect its proposed 420-megawatt offshore wind farm in the Nantucket Sound to the state power grid.

Cape Wind said in a release that it would challenge the Commission decision. The Cape Cod Commission is a local organization created by the state in 1990 to manage growth and protect Cape Cod’s natural resources.

Sen. Ted Kennedy and many residents who own coastal property from where they could see the wind turbines on a clear day oppose the project along with some environmental groups concerned about disrupting the patterns of migratory birds and the potential effect on local sea life.

The project’s supporters, who include other environmental groups, meanwhile claim it would provide renewable energy, improve air quality, lower electricity costs and increase the reliability of the power grid.

Although the wind farm would be located in federal waters, the transmission lines connecting the project to the grid crosses land controlled by state and local authorities…



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Monday, August 18, 2014 10:46 PM

ELVISCHRIST


So you're saying these solar panels are great at keeping birds from getting hurt by flying into windmills?

Awesome!


Also, has Kenny Rogers been notified?


For all of you fussing about this, do you eat meat, ever?

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Tuesday, August 19, 2014 9:43 AM

BYTEMITE


There is no reason why most places in the Midwest to west shouldn't have solar panels on their homes. Places that are rainier should have a water wheel and an generator, and geothermal energy should also be used if available.

All buildings should be geared towards efficient heating and cooling - using ambient air and sunlight if possible.

Electrical companies mass producing energy, whether fossil fuel based to investing in natural resources, are obsolete and will not be able to keep up with demand. Time for a complete change in how we do our infrastructure.

And I say this not because of global warming, or population growth, but just out of common sense. It's far less expensive to maintain buildings with these specifications.

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Tuesday, August 19, 2014 9:45 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Originally posted by ElvisChrist:

For all of you fussing about this, do you eat meat, ever?



I do not. The looming issue of livestock, landuse, contamination from commercial animal farms, and food availability will eventually need to be dealt with. But that too is not an impossible problem.

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Tuesday, August 19, 2014 3:58 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by ElvisChrist:

For all of you fussing about this, do you eat meat, ever?




Nice distraction from the issue, bird brain.


Humans are omnivores. Like our ancestors before us. What does eating meat have to do w/ the 100% senseless loss of life via wind turbines and solar collectors ?


Oh, that's right. Absolutely nothing.

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Tuesday, August 19, 2014 6:06 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by ElvisChrist:

For all of you fussing about this, do you eat meat, ever?




Nice distraction from the issue, bird brain.


Humans are omnivores. Like our ancestors before us. What does eating meat have to do w/ the 100% senseless loss of life via wind turbines and solar collectors have to do w/ anything ?


Was he trying to imply that black people eat fried chicken?

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Tuesday, August 19, 2014 9:33 PM

WISHIMAY


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
There is no reason why most places in the Midwest to west shouldn't have solar panels on their homes.

... geothermal energy should also be used if available.

All buildings should be geared towards efficient heating and cooling - using ambient air and sunlight if possible.

Time for a complete change in how we do our infrastructure.

And I say this not because of global warming, or population growth, but just out of common sense. It's far less expensive to maintain buildings with these specifications.



Solar panels: My neighbor used to have one that run their water heater. Two years ago a tornado with lemon sized hail hit and ripped us all new ones. It's the third tornado I've personally been in. In 30 years, mind you.(BTW, there are about 1000 EVERY YEAR in the U.S.) Replacing a roof itself is astronomical to begin with. We put on the roof ourselves because we had no other choice. Then you've got the problem of solar installers NOT being roofers, and every third house is not in direct light, or not tested to support that much weight, especially with 14 inches of snow and ice. Then, if you do have them you will be charged out the wazoo for insurance premiums to replace them.

DO YOU HAVE ANY FREAKING IDEA HOW MUCH GEOTHERMAL COSTS??? Around $25, 000!
I wouldn't pay that for a CAR...And then it only cuts bills in half, you still have to circulate air, and during extreme months you still have to heat and cool it to a comfortable temp. Many areas aren't even capable of installing it to begin with...

What Star-Trek-land do you live in, btw? People should have an architect design their trailer parks and apartment complexes and ghettos for optimal temperature conditions then. Shit, most people do well to afford rent and food with the every declining nickel and dime wages... It would take extreme government oversight to accomplish what you suggest on every new building and that too would take $$$$. Affordable housing would be non-existent. I'm not saying it SHOULDN'T be done, I'm saying it just ain't gonna happen...

We had ONE person in our entire county install ONE windmill, which is now removed. I sure wouldn't want to live next to one and have to worry every time a tornado warning is issued, would you?? Not to mention you can't run them in very high winds or they burn out (and it seems that's all we get about six months of the year)

Then there's what will happen if you shut down coal mines. Our county would be devastated. 1800 people just in my county ALONE would be out of work. You can forget about the entire Midwest. There would never be enough decent living wage jobs to make it recover. 200,000 people would be living off the government. You wanna pay for that???

And I sure as hell don't want fraking HERE. I will take coal mining any day of the week over earthquakes and chemicals in the water.
And then there's the sheer AMOUNT of water needed to frack...eventually we're gonna NEED THAT.
http://stateimpact.npr.org/pennsylvania/2013/03/12/how-much-water-it-t
akes-to-frack-a-well
/


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Tuesday, August 19, 2014 10:09 PM

JONGSSTRAW


Now that's unusually refreshing.

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Tuesday, August 19, 2014 10:34 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by ElvisChrist:

For all of you fussing about this, do you eat meat, ever?




Nice distraction from the issue, bird brain.


Humans are omnivores. Like our ancestors before us. What does eating meat have to do w/ the 100% senseless loss of life via wind turbines and solar collectors have to do w/ anything ?


Was he trying to imply that black people eat fried chicken?




Oh no you didn't !


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Tuesday, August 19, 2014 10:48 PM

ELVISCHRIST


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by ElvisChrist:

For all of you fussing about this, do you eat meat, ever?




Nice distraction from the issue, bird brain.


Humans are omnivores. Like our ancestors before us. What does eating meat have to do w/ the 100% senseless loss of life via wind turbines and solar collectors have to do w/ anything ?




"...have to do with... have to do w/ anything?"


Huh? Try English next time.



So riddle me this, raptard: Are animals ever killed in oil spills? When an oil refinery explodes, are there ever any animals killed? When fracking fluid leeches into the groundwater, has it ever been harmful to any wildlife, anywhere, ever? If a coal mine explodes, is it remotely possible that some birds, bats, insects, or other life forms (besides humans, of course) are killed in the ensuing disaster?

Help me out; I'm just trying to establish a baseline for what you think constitutes "sensible" loss of life as opposed to what you claim is "senseless loss of life".

I'll bet you money you won't give me a straightforward, honest answer to the question. How many lives does it take to become "senseless"? What's the magic number, so we all know not to come back and bother you until that number is reached?


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Tuesday, August 19, 2014 10:49 PM

ELVISCHRIST


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by ElvisChrist:

For all of you fussing about this, do you eat meat, ever?




Nice distraction from the issue, bird brain.


Humans are omnivores. Like our ancestors before us. What does eating meat have to do w/ the 100% senseless loss of life via wind turbines and solar collectors have to do w/ anything ?


Was he trying to imply that black people eat fried chicken?




I know *I* do, although I cannot eat watermelon. It makes me the white sheep of my family.

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Tuesday, August 19, 2014 10:52 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
There is no reason why most places in the Midwest to west shouldn't have solar panels on their homes.



Depends on the home. If you have trees shading your home, or are in an apartment building, the up to $50,000 cost of a solar system http://michaelbluejay.com/electricity/solar.html might not work for you.

Quote:

Places that are rainier should have a water wheel and an generator
Assumes you got a stream in your yard and room for an impoundment big enough to produce enough flow to generate enough energy between rains to be worthwhile (and neighbors who don't mind you flooding their back yards).
Quote:

, and geothermal energy should also be used if available.
In most of the country, this would be limited to subterranean heating and cooling, and would require drilling a pretty deep well. Not too many folks doing this now. Upfront costs are in the $25,000 range, and look like they'd require 20 years or so (compared to natural gas, which I use) to recoup the initial cost, even on geothermal heating sites. http://geothermaloptions.com/GTO/Costs.html

Quote:

All buildings should be geared towards efficient heating and cooling - using ambient air and sunlight if possible.

If you're building a brand new community, this'd be a good idea. Unfortunately, a lot of residences, especially in cities, are really difficult to retrofit.

Quote:

Electrical companies mass producing energy, whether fossil fuel based to investing in natural resources, are obsolete and will not be able to keep up with demand. Time for a complete change in how we do our infrastructure.

And I say this not because of global warming, or population growth, but just out of common sense. It's far less expensive to maintain buildings with these specifications.



It is. But its very expensive to tear down all the buildings folks currently live in and build new, efficient, buildings. Its going to take a while.

I have no problem with folks building new homes including the most energy efficient systems they can, based on what they're looking for in a home. I have no problem with folks retrofitting energy efficient systems they can afford. Deciding that everyone should immediately go to the most energy efficiency systems, regardless of cost, is wishful thinking.


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Tuesday, August 19, 2014 10:56 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by ElvisChrist:


So riddle me this, raptard: Are animals ever killed in oil spills? When an oil refinery explodes, are there ever any animals killed? When fracking fluid leeches into the groundwater, has it ever been harmful to any wildlife, anywhere, ever? If a coal mine explodes, is it remotely possible that some birds, bats, insects, or other life forms (besides humans, of course) are killed in the ensuing disaster?

Help me out; I'm just trying to establish a baseline for what you think constitutes "sensible" loss of life as opposed to what you claim is "senseless loss of life".

I'll bet you money you won't give me a straightforward, honest answer to the question. How many lives does it take to become "senseless"? What's the magic number, so we all know not to come back and bother you until that number is reached?




You understood my point, so the 'try English ' crap is yet just another mindless distraction.

First, oil spills are not the 'norm'. Spinning blades of a turbine and extremely high heat from solar collectors are normal operating procedures for the green energy alternatives.

And just because x number of animals may die from one form of energy collection, doesn't mean other forms of energy collection get a free pass to kill even MORE critters. Sorry, it don't work that way. You're only adding to the way animals die, and that's not helping.


And since you're a troll, and refuse to discuss civilly, go frak yourself.



btw - You keep making these asinine bets that I won't answer, and then when I do answer, which is always, you never pay off.

How about you stop doing that, and making yourself look like an ever bigger ass.

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Tuesday, August 19, 2014 11:39 PM

ELVISCHRIST


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

You understood my point, so the 'try English ' crap is yet just another mindless distraction.

First, oil spills are not the 'norm'. Spinning blades of a turbine and extremely high heat from solar collectors are normal operating procedures for the green energy alternatives.




Actually, oil spills are very much the "norm". EPA recorded more than 42,000 spills in the U.S. in a 20-year period, or close to 6 per day.

Quote:


And just because x number of animals may die from one form of energy collection, doesn't mean other forms of energy collection get a free pass to kill even MORE critters. Sorry, it don't work that way. You're only adding to the way animals die, and that's not helping.




So if, say, oil spills kill 100,000 animals per year, and turbines and solar combined were to kill only 10,000 animals per year (purely hypothetically, of course) - you'd still say that we should do away with the turbines and solar, and should open up more drilling, build more pipelines, and ship more oil, right?



Quote:


And since you're a troll, and refuse to discuss civilly, go frak yourself.




Which part of my response did you find uncivil? The part where I asked questions you can't give honest answers to?


Quote:


btw - You keep making these asinine bets that I won't answer, and then when I do answer, which is always, you never pay off.



How much did we bet? Can you show me the part where you accepted the bet and we agreed upon an amount?

BTW, you didn't really answer the questions, did you? I asked what your number of deaths is. You apparently seem to think that even one is too many, but fossil fuel deaths shall never be counted at all, because those don't count, by some magical raptard calculus you seem to have pulled out of your ass.


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Tuesday, August 19, 2014 11:55 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


You said you bet I'd not answer. Even though the question was asinine, I still answered.
And 'tard ? Really ? You don't see a problem w/ that ?

I'm done with you.

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Wednesday, August 20, 2014 1:23 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


You posted SOMEthing, crappy, you actually didn't answer the question. The question was HOW MANY deaths do there have to be to be significant. (I hope you realize I'm paraphrasing, You DO know what that word means, right?)

So, do you think you can answer the question? Hint: the answer is a number.




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Wednesday, August 20, 2014 6:21 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:



Originally posted by 1kiki:
You posted SOMEthing, crappy, you actually didn't answer the question. The question was HOW MANY deaths do there have to be to be significant. (I hope you realize I'm paraphrasing, You DO know what that word means, right?)

So, do you think you can answer the question? Hint: the answer is a number.




Once again, it's an asinine, inane question. I don't take it seriously, so I'll not be giving out any numbers.

I gave my answer. You not liking it doesn't matter all that much to me.

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Wednesday, August 20, 2014 9:42 AM

THGRRI


Climate variability and change affects birdlife and animals in a number of ways; birds lay eggs earlier in the year than usual, plants bloom earlier and mammals are come out of hibernation sooner. Distribution of animals is also affected; with many species moving closer to the poles as a response to the rise in global temperatures. Birds are migrating and arriving at their nesting grounds earlier, and the nesting grounds that they are moving to are not as far away as they used to be and in some countries the birds don’t even leave anymore, as the climate is suitable all year round.

A sea level rise of only 50cm could cause sea turtles to lose their nesting beaches - over 30% of Caribbean beaches are used by turtles during the nesting season and would be affected. The already endangered Mediterranean Monk Seals need beaches upon which to raise their pups and a rise in sea level could there could damage shallow coastal areas used annually by whales and dolphins which need shallow, gentle waters in order to rear there small calves.

Humans have already destroyed many of the natural migrations of animals. We could make all kinds of posts about the effect fossil fuels have had on not just wild life and the planet but humans as well. It is only going to get worse.

Most plants and animals live in areas with very specific climate conditions, such as temperature and rainfall patterns, that enable them to thrive. Any change in the climate of an area can affect the plants and animals living there, as well as the makeup of the entire ecosystem. Some species are already responding to a warmer climate by moving to cooler locations. For example, some North American animals and plants are moving farther north or to higher elevations to find suitable places to live. Climate change also alters the life cycles of plants and animals. For example, as temperatures get warmer, many plants are starting to grow and bloom earlier in the spring and survive longer into the fall. Some animals are waking from hibernation sooner or migrating at different times, too.

We need to continue to find better ways of using solar energy and wind that is less harmful to birds.



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Wednesday, August 20, 2014 10:08 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Affordable housing would be non-existent. I'm not saying it SHOULDN'T be done, I'm saying it just ain't gonna happen...


I live in a place where zero-energy buildings are incredibly easy to build, and I have been involved in the building of many of them. Including zero-energy solar panel equipped affordable housing projects.

When I help people cleanup a brownfield, there's already interest there in being greener, and they're willing to work out green designs for what they're building. Green designs are becoming an increasingly common concept in the construction and development business, simply because it saves money in the long run for the buyers. It's appealing.

Solar panels, a good installation of them, can cost $10,000-$20,000. I concede your point about tornadoes, and in that case, $25,000 for geothermal might be the best option. Of course, even better would be developing the technology to make both technologies more affordable.

It should be done, and it HAS to happen. That's really all there is to it.

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Wednesday, August 20, 2014 10:19 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

If you have trees shading your home, or are in an apartment building, the up to $50,000 cost of a solar system http://michaelbluejay.com/electricity/solar.html might not work for you.


Seen apartment buildings with solar power, it works fine. Trees shading your home is another thing, but putting the solar panels on the roof isn't the only option. Maybe technology will also come up with solar panel systems that can move with the sun too.

Heck, maybe someday we'll figure out a way to tap energy directly from photosynthesis, or maybe people will grow their own algae bio-fuels to generate electricity for their homes.

Quote:

Assumes you got a stream in your yard


Not in the particularly rainy places I'm thinking about, where they get inches of rain in a day. Southeastern Alaska and Portland are good examples. Really, you just need enough volume over enough time in a day that you can turn a turbine regularly. Then you need something to store the energy.

Quote:

Upfront costs are in the $25,000 range, and look like they'd require 20 years or so (compared to natural gas, which I use) to recoup the initial cost, even on geothermal heating sites.


Yep. But it does eventually recoup costs.

People are willing to spend 25,000 plus on a car that burns fossil fuels every day, but the idea of spending money on an energy generating system that will pay for itself in 10-20 years is inconceivable because you can just buy natural gas?

We are literally burning money. Makes no sense to me.

Quote:

If you're building a brand new community, this'd be a good idea. Unfortunately, a lot of residences, especially in cities, are really difficult to retrofit.

[...]

It is. But its very expensive to tear down all the buildings folks currently live in and build new, efficient, buildings. Its going to take a while.



Agreed. It will. But that is going to have to be what happens.


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