REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Chocolate king edges out gas princess?

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Saturday, June 7, 2014 08:40
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Sunday, May 25, 2014 1:39 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

As was largely expected, Petro Poroshenko - the candy tycoon known as the "chocolate king" - has easily beaten Yulia Tymoshenko - nicknamed "gas princess" - to become Ukraine's next president according to exit polls

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-05-25/exit-polls-show-choco-king-po
roshenko-winning-ukraine-election-expected-us-hardly-en


It will be interesting to see what Russia makes of this. I've thought (and said so quite frequently) that Russia's most keen interest in Ukraine was (1) their naval base in Sevastopol, and (2) NATO. That does not mean that eastern Ukraine doesn't have it's own interest in joining Russia (ie who the heck wants to live under IMF austerity?)

If Poroshenko wins and demures on NATO, does Russia leave Eastern Ukraine without a big-nation sponsor, in other words- in limbo? If Poroshenko can make a deal with Russia, does that mean the gas keeps flowing even tho Ukraine is waaaay behind in payments?


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Sunday, May 25, 2014 1:48 PM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity





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Sunday, May 25, 2014 2:48 PM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity



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Sunday, May 25, 2014 5:09 PM

WHOZIT


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

As was largely expected, Petro Poroshenko - the candy tycoon known as the "chocolate king" - has easily beaten Yulia Tymoshenko - nicknamed "gas princess" - to become Ukraine's next president according to exit polls

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-05-25/exit-polls-show-choco-king-po
roshenko-winning-ukraine-election-expected-us-hardly-en


It will be interesting to see what Russia makes of this. I've thought (and said so quite frequently) that Russia's most keen interest in Ukraine was (1) their naval base in Sevastopol, and (2) NATO. That does not mean that eastern Ukraine doesn't have it's own interest in joining Russia (ie who the heck wants to live under IMF austerity?)

If Poroshenko wins and demures on NATO, does Russia leave Eastern Ukraine without a big-nation sponsor, in other words- in limbo? If Poroshenko can make a deal with Russia, does that mean the gas keeps flowing even tho Ukraine is waaaay behind in payments?




This thread has nothing to do with donuts...shame on you.

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Sunday, May 25, 2014 5:17 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"... and, vowing to end a conflict with pro-Russian rebels, he pledged to align his country with Europe."

They seem to be incompatible goals. I wonder how he thinks he's going to do that.



OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.
"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

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Sunday, May 25, 2014 10:18 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
It will be interesting to see what Russia makes of this.



Putin has said that he will respect the election, so he and Russia should do nothing.

Quote:

Putin promises to respect Ukraine’s election

PETERSBURG, Russia — President Vladimir Putin pledged Friday that Russia will respect the results of Ukraine’s presidential election, a strong indication the Kremlin wants to cool down the crisis.



http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/russian-fm-slams-west-over-
ukraine/2014/05/23/faaae9d6-e24f-11e3-9442-54189bf1a809_story.html


Wanna bet?





"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Monday, May 26, 2014 1:46 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
They seem to be incompatible goals. I wonder how he thinks he's going to do that.


Use of force, probably, which is a reallllly bad idea, but there it is...

Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Wanna bet?


No free money for you!

Seems to me though, the more foreign "meddling" goes on, the stronger the isolationist factions get, although due to puny size and lack of resources they're probably doomed - folks always like to slice the pie in half and think in terms of two primary "sides", and in this case that's closer to true than it was in Libya, but it's more collective of factions with varying agendas agreeing that they hate some other faction more than the one they're working with - and that can change in an eyeblink, especially when you factor in human frailty and the corruption of politics.

As for bets, whatever faction DOES come out on top, I am betting they face a pocket revolt if not worse within eighteen months of assuming power, and even odds whether Putin and company finances it, cause the last damn thing he wants is NATO sitting on his porch like that.

-Frem


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Monday, May 26, 2014 10:28 PM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity



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Monday, May 26, 2014 10:52 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"How most Ukrainians wanted to join with Russia and how our press was lying."


That's what's called a straw man argument, fyi.

Wikipedia says: "A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To 'set up a straw man' or 'set up a straw-man argument' is to create a position that is easy to refute, then attribute that position to the opponent.



OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.
"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

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Tuesday, May 27, 2014 8:36 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
"How most Ukrainians wanted to join with Russia and how our press was lying."


That's what's called a straw man argument, fyi.

Wikipedia says: "A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To 'set up a straw man' or 'set up a straw-man argument' is to create a position that is easy to refute, then attribute that position to the opponent.




Really?

Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Too late!

89% Of Donetsk Voters Pick Independence From Kiev; Ukraine Prepared To Fight To Defend Territory

Quote:

Marc Burleigh @marcburleigh Follow Rebels in Donetsk in east #Ukraine give press conference & claim 89% of voters in province cast ballots in favour of self-rule @AFP


http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-05-11/89-donetsk-voters-pick-indepe
ndence-kiev-ukraine-warns-prepared-fight-defend-territo




From this thread.

http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=58021


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Wednesday, May 28, 2014 8:24 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Oh, and Putin is now hedging on accepting the recent election.

Quote:

Kiev and the West accuse Russia of stoking separatist sentiment in eastern Ukraine - a claim President Vladimir Putin denies.

His foreign policy adviser Yury Ushakov reaffirmed on Wednesday that Moscow "respected" the will of Ukraine's voters but also denounced the Ukrainian army's "provocative military actions".



http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27599836

Be interesting to see if Putin considered Russian military actions against a separatist group trying to take over, say, St. Petersburg "provocative".


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Wednesday, May 28, 2014 10:30 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


That's not really hedging on the election result, but it will be interesting to see how the Russian propaganda machine deals with a government they can't readily portray as a 'fascist coup'.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Wednesday, May 28, 2014 1:51 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
That's not really hedging on the election result, but it will be interesting to see how the Russian propaganda machine deals with a government they can't readily portray as a 'fascist coup'.

It's not personal. It's just war.



Seems a distinction without a difference to me. Putin will be looking for some excuse to mess around in the Ukraine again, be it the election or the "provocative" actions of the Ukrainian military against folks attacking Ukrainian air bases, government offices, etc.


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Wednesday, May 28, 2014 2:14 PM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity



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Wednesday, May 28, 2014 2:56 PM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity



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Friday, May 30, 2014 8:58 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


BBC - Is Russia orchestrating east Ukraine violence?: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27633117

Vice News - The Battle for Donetsk airport:



Make sure to see the interview with the Donetsk resident at 8:28


It's not personal. It's just war.

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Wednesday, June 4, 2014 9:45 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


As I understand it, there are volunteers from everywhere - Moldova (Transnistra), Chechnya, Belarus, in east Ukraine. If there are Russian regulars there... or even special ops... their numbers are very small. I've said this several times.

What I find simply amazing is the hypocritical brass balls of the Kiev government to hold- and the USA to back- the notion that this government represents democracy.

This is like Egypt, or Syria, (or Thailand, upcoming) - a military-backed government displaces a democratically-elected government, then holds an election which the USA either recognizes (because it's someone we "like") or refuses to recognize (because it's someone we don't "like"). Or we just refuse to recognize elections - no matter that it DOES represent the will of the people, as in Crimea. It seems to me that our (USA/ Obama) notion of democracy is that we'll keep overturning elections and holding new ones until we get the results we want. Just ignore the bodies.

Assholes.



Of course, Kiev is now firing missiles on its own population. I didn't figure that Kiev would have such big brass balls as to hold an election, but I DID figure that eventually it would lead to actual heavy-weapons fighting. Because, yanno, east Ukraine just LOVES the Kiev government, and the Kiev government just LOVES democracy.

OH, as far as that interview- it's easy to put up an interview of ONE person who says what you want to hear, if you look long enough. I can point to similar "person-on-the-street" interviews from Venezuela, Egypt, Thailand, Vietnam or wherever- that turned out to be incredibly misleading. What is less easy is to find out the real mix of opinions- and, more importantly- to figure out what people are going to do as a result. So far, nobody has actually tried to figure out what the east Ukrainians want- especially not Kiev or the USA- because yanno what? They don't give a flying fuck about the place or the people.

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Wednesday, June 4, 2014 9:57 AM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity



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Wednesday, June 4, 2014 10:13 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


MIKER- all you're saying is that if there were no Russia, the USA would have its way with Ukraine. You believe that inside every Ukrainian is an American who just wants to get out. In fact, I'd be willing to bet dollars to donuts that you think that's how MOST people around the world feel- "Gosh, if only we could all be just like America. If only we could BE part of America"

But yanno, there are a lot of people who are authentically and genuinely patriotic, just not towards the USA. They have nations, economies, languages, cultures, and lives of their own which are - amazingly - just as valuable as ours. I'll bet that you probably look down on everyone else who isn't in our sphere and who doesn't follow our model. That view is what allows us to feel justified in killing 1 million people (or more) to promote our notions about capitalism, or socialism, or "democracy", or what-have-you. Because, on the weigh-scale that a lot of Americans use, foreign lives just don't weigh a whole lot. It's just "collateral damage" to our American aims and goals. Sorry folks, that we killed so many of you, but we meant well. That conceit is called "American exceptionalism". You might want to look that up.

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Wednesday, June 4, 2014 10:21 AM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity



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Wednesday, June 4, 2014 10:24 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I am saying (not implying) that YOU are ideological and one-dimensional in your thinking. Because in your mind, CLEARLY, all of Ukraine wants to join the EU. And what you demonstrate is not patriotism but imperialism.

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Wednesday, June 4, 2014 10:27 AM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity



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Wednesday, June 4, 2014 2:00 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
What I find simply amazing is the hypocritical brass balls of the Kiev government to hold- and the USA to back- the notion that this government represents democracy.



You simply can't accept the fact that an election was held, found to be legitimate by every organization that over saw it, and that does not fit your narrative.

At this point even Putin is being smart enough to back off.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, June 5, 2014 1:03 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


MIKER
Quote:

No not at all. What I am implying today is the same thing I implied three weeks ago. You keep presenting a package promoting Russia's point of view. Nothing more nothing less.
First of all, you need to look up the definition of the word "imply", because you're doing more than "implying". But that's OK.

Also, you don't know me or my history, so I forgive you for misunderstanding my views. However, I have been anti-imperialist for quite some time. I was dead-set against our invasion of Iraq... and turns out I was right, too. I was also dead-set against our bombing of Libya, because just like in Iraq all we did was create a clusterfuck. But neither of events had much to do with Russia. I just hate it when my country does horrible things, and I'm virulently against my country causing useless, needless death and destruction. Aren't you?

M52
Putin doesn't want to start WW3, which we apparently want to do pretty badly. Fortunately for me, I don't have his geopolitical responsibilities and I can call a spade a spade.

If the USA held a national election where a region- say, Texas- was disenfranchized, you can bet your bottom dollar that Texas would complain loud and long- and rightly so- that the election wasn't representative. It's just common sense.

What I noticed is that "democracy" means whatever we want it to mean.

Manual Zelaya was the democratically-elected President of Honduras, and actually quite popular. But when he suggested running a nonbinding national referendum on whether he could run for a second term, the army kidnapped him and took over the country. The Obama admin publicly refused to call it a coup, although a confidential State Dept memo said

Quote:

The Embassy perspective is that there is no doubt that the military, Supreme Court and National Congress conspired on June 28 in what constituted an illegal and unconstitutional coup against the Executive Branch, while accepting that there may be a prima facie case that Zelaya may have committed illegalities and may have even violated the constitution. There is equally no doubt from our perspective that Roberto Micheletti's assumption of power was illegitimate.


June 2012 Mohmamed Morsi was elected President of Egypt. After accruing to himself judicial and constitutional powers, he was taken prisoner by General Al Sisi. Obama refused to call it a coup, because if he did so he would have had to stop military aid.


In Thailand....
Quote:

In the 2011 general election, Yingluck Shinawatra and the Pheu Thai Party (PTP) obtained a landslide victory and formed the government with Yingluck as prime minister. Anti-government protests, led by Democrat Party Secretary General Suthep Thaugsuban, began in November 2013.... In December 2013, Yingluck dissolved the House of Representatives and scheduled a general election for 2 February 2014. Disrupted by the anti-government protesters, the election was not completed on that day. The Constitutional Court then nullified the election on 21 March 2014. On 7 May 2014, the Constitutional Court unanimously removed Yingluck and nine other senior ministers from office over the controversial transfer of a top security officer in 2011. [Despite an election having already been called for] The remaining ministers selected Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Commerce Niwatthamrong Boonsongpaisan to replace Yingluck as caretaker prime minister as protests continued. The RTA intervened on 20 May 2014, when its commander General Prayuth exercised the power under the Act promulgated by King Vajiravudh (Rama VI) entitled Martial Law
Which, BTW, Obama refuses to call a coup.

In Ukraine, Yanukovich was elected President. After an unpopular decision and violent protests, elections were moved up from the scheduled 2015 to 2014. However, rather than holding national elections, Yanukovich was violently removed from power and a caretaker government appointed until (questionable) elections could be held under a different regime. Perhaps of THIS event, the State Department might also privately say that
Quote:

the military, Supreme Court and National Congress conspired on June 28 in what constituted an illegal and unconstitutional coup against the Executive Branch
, altho publicly refuse to call a coup.

It's the same throughout our history. If we don't like the results of an election, we just keep shaking the magic eightball until we get the results we want, no matter how sketchy the process and non-representative the results.



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Thursday, June 5, 2014 5:48 AM

FREMDFIRMA


*shakes head*

There's a large merit to leaving well the hell enough alone, would that we'd eventually learn it.

Our foreign policy all too often resembles the little old lady who swallowed a spider.

-F

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Thursday, June 5, 2014 9:24 AM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity



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Thursday, June 5, 2014 9:34 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


MIKER

Show me how our foreign policy has made this messy world a better place to live for everyone.

Alternatively, show me how our foreign policy has furthered OUR national interests and made OUR nation, at least, a better place to live.

Or, if you really want to be ambitious, do both.

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Thursday, June 5, 2014 9:43 AM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity




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Thursday, June 5, 2014 9:53 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


MIKER

I have opinions, sure, but I also have factual events to back them up. But because you don't like my opinions, ("based in a skewed ideology") do you think that erases real-world events?

Why don't you come out into the real world, and start exchanging facts, point for point? YOU might learn something. I might learn something. Instead you choose to stand in your ideological bubble, and call other people ideologues. Not a winning argument.


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Thursday, June 5, 2014 9:57 AM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity



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Thursday, June 5, 2014 11:46 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


MIKER
And now, you're reduced to innuendo and name-calling. Again, not a winning argument. So, to get the ball rolling, I'm going to quote someone else for a change. Several someones, in fact.

The WH and western media have been so eager to smear Russia, they can't even keep their story straight. They're convince- convinced, I tell you!- that the Russians are "somehow" behind the unrest in eastern Ukraine. SO convinced that Obama The Blowhard is going to try to impose even MORE sanctions on Russia unless they somehow, some way, use their "influence" to stop the eastern Ukrainians and sympathetic volunteers.

But then, in their eagerness to show that the Russians are terrible in every way - weak, untrustworthy, and afraid, in addition to being cunning, strong, and in charge- NBC runs this ...
Quote:

Pro-Russia Rebels in Ukraine Say Putin Gave Us 'False Hope'

"The only possible help for us would be if the Russian forces came," said Dmitry Boitsov of the Russian Orthodox Army from Slaviansk, Ukraine — where fighting has been raging for two straight days. "If he doesn't bring in forces, there will be people here who would want to destroy him, because he gave us false hope.... Our fighters are mine workers and young lads who do not know how to use arms," Boitsov told NBC News. It feels "like the whole world is against us. There are also many traitors amongst us."

It seems that the rebels of Slaviansk feel that Putin is giving them no help at all... not even the moral boost of Russian troops at the border. Do I need to point out that this contradicts their other narrative? You know- the one about Russia being behind all of this, with Russian troops and Russian Spec Ops and Russian arms being the only reason why eastern Ukraine has flared up into violent resistance?

It probably wouldn't be so hard to keep their story straight if the media had a commitment to reporting the truth, because the truth doesn't change. But when you spin so much, you risk getting dizzy.

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukraine-crisis/pro-russia-rebels-ukra
ine-say-putin-gave-us-false-hope-n122456


As far as our double standards are concerned

Quote:

President Obama is still embracing Official Washington’s false narrative on Ukraine as he hypocritically blames the crisis entirely on Moscow and ignores the West’s role in toppling an elected president and provoking a nasty civil war.

Sometimes in dealing with the U.S. government and its compliant mainstream media, I’m left with the feeling that if it weren’t for double standards, there would be no standards at all. From President Barack Obama to the editors at the Washington Post and the New York Times, it’s obvious that what’s good for the goose is not good for the gander.

An election in an embattled country is valid and even inspiring if it turns out the way Official Washington wants, as in Ukraine last month; otherwise it’s a sham and illegitimate, as in Syria this month.

Similarly, people have an inalienable right of self-determination if it’s Kosovo or South Sudan, but not if it’s Crimea or the Donbass region of Ukraine. Those referenda for separation from Ukraine must have been “rigged” though there is no evidence they were. Everything is seen through the eye of the beholder and the beholders in Official Washington are deeply biased.

When it comes to military interventions, U.S. officials such as Ambassador to the United Nations Samantha Power assert a “responsibility to protect” transcending national sovereignty if civilians are threatened in Libya or in Syria, but not when the civilians are being slaughtered in Gaza, Odessa, Mariupol or Donetsk. When those killings are being done by U.S. allies, the allies are praised for their “restraint.”

The hypocrisy extends to the application of international law. If some leaders in Africa engage in actions that cause civilian deaths, they must be indicted by the International Criminal Court and dragged before The Hague for prosecution by jurists representing an outraged world.

But it’s unthinkable that there would be any accountability for George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, Tony Blair and other “respectable” leaders who invaded Iraq and caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands last decade.

The United States also presents itself as the great guardian of democracy and constitutional order, except when those democratic impulses conflict with U.S. interests. Then, the American people are treated to the cognitive dissonance of overthrowing democratically elected governments in the name of “democracy.” [See Consortiumnews.com’s “America’s Staggering Hypocrisy.”]

The Ukraine Case

When Ukraine’s elected President Viktor Yanukovych rejected austerity demands from the International Monetary Fund that accompanied a plan for European association, senior U.S. officials decided that Yanukovych had to go and urged on protests, ultimately spearheaded by neo-Nazi militias, that violently overthrew Yanukovych on Feb. 22.

The U.S. State Department’s “public diplomacy” officials then spun a narrative that glued white hats on the putschists and black hats on those who sought to defend the elected government. Whenever people mentioned the inconvenient truth about the crucial neo-Nazi role in providing the muscle for the coup, they were accused of spreading “Russian propaganda.”

Yet, while U.S. meddling in the internal affairs of another country is a good thing, it is a bad thing if a U.S. adversary does the same or is just suspected of doing the same.

When American and French volunteers go to Syria to fight with the U.S.-backed rebels, those volunteers are, of course, operating on their own (such as American suicide bomber Abu Hurayra Al-Amriki). To suggest otherwise without proof would be a “conspiracy theory,” a point with which I would agree .

But, remember, the rules are flexible; while the U.S. press corps would mock anyone who jumped to a conclusion that the American and French jihadists in Syria must have connections to Washington and Paris, the opposite assumption applies to any disfavored government; then, the U.S. press just “knows” that some indigenous resistance must be directed from some nefarious foreign capital.

For example, the U.S. government is accusing Russia of somehow being behind the unrest in eastern Ukraine, Yanukovych’s political base, even though the unparalleled U.S. intelligence agencies and American journalists on the ground have been unable to detect any proof of this alleged direction from Moscow.

Still, the assumption led the New York Times to get suckered into a State Department propaganda ploy when the Times ran a lead story based on photographs supposedly showing covert Russian military teams that were “clearly” in Russia but then popped up in eastern Ukraine.

Two days later, however, the Times was forced to retract its scoop when it turned out that a key photo purportedly taken in Russia had actually been snapped in Ukraine, destroying the story’s premise. [See Consortiumnews.com’s “NYT Retracts Ukraine Photo Scoop.”]

But that egg-on-the-face moment only made the Times more determined to prove that the ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine indeed were “minions” of Moscow, not free-thinking people who simply reject what they regard as the imposition of illegitimate authority from Kiev.

So, when some Russian nationalists crossed the border to help their ethnic brethren in eastern Ukraine, it was assumed – again without evidence – that Russian President Vladimir Putin must have sent them.

Times reporter Sabrina Tavernise traveled to Donetsk but could not find the desired evidence. The Russian nationalists said they had no connections to Moscow and were motivated simply by a determination to help protect fellow ethnic Russians from the escalating military assault from western Ukraine.

Despite those disappointing findings, the Times front-page story on June 1 still made the desired point through its headline: “In Ukraine War, Kremlin Leaves No Fingerprints.” The phrasing assumes that Russian interference is real, just that the culprit has been careful to wipe away any evidence.

The article stated its conclusion this way: “Mr. Putin may not be directing these events, but he is certainly their principal beneficiary.” But is that tendentious phrasing even true? Putin has shown a willingness to have a dialogue with Ukraine’s new President-elect Petro Poroshenko in hopes to calming down the crisis on Russia’s border.

Protecting the Narrative

But Official Washington’s narrative of the crisis must always be maintained, whatever the lack of verifiable evidence. Though an objective observer might note that the crisis was provoked last year by a reckless European Union association offer – followed by the IMF’s draconian austerity plan that was rejected by Yanukovych, prompting U.S.-encouraged violent demonstrations (all while Putin was preoccupied by the Sochi Winter Olympics) – it is fundamental to the U.S. propaganda theme to boil the storyline down to “Russian aggression.”

Obama should and may know better – that Putin’s response was reactive to the West’s provocations, not a case of Russian provocation – but Obama is busy fending off accusations of “weakness” from Republicans and various neocons. So Obama apparently feels he has to talk tough and regurgitate the false narrative, as he did in his June 4 speech in Poland, declaring:

“As we’ve been reminded by Russia’s aggression in Ukraine, our free nations cannot be complacent in pursuit of the vision we share — a Europe that is whole and free and at peace. We have to work for that. We have to stand with those who seek freedom. …

“We stand together because we believe that people and nations have the right to determine their own destiny. And that includes the people of Ukraine. Robbed by a corrupt regime, Ukrainians demanded a government that served them. Beaten and bloodied, they refused to yield. Threatened and harassed, they lined up to vote; they elected a new President in a free election — because a leader’s legitimacy can only come from the consent of the people. …

“We stand together because we believe that upholding peace and security is the responsibility of every nation. The days of empire and spheres of influence are over. Bigger nations must not be allowed to bully the small, or impose their will at the barrel of a gun or with masked men taking over buildings.

“And the stroke of a pen can never legitimize the theft of a neighbor’s land. So we will not accept Russia’s occupation of Crimea or its violation of Ukraine’s sovereignty. Our free nations will stand united so that further Russian provocations will only mean more isolation and costs for Russia. Because after investing so much blood and treasure to bring Europe together, how can we allow the dark tactics of the 20th century to define this new century?”

As I said, if it weren’t for double standards, there would be no standards at all.


http://www.globalresearch.ca/ukraine-vs-syria-the-only-standards-are-d
ouble-standards/5385719





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Friday, June 6, 2014 1:43 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Apparently, MIKER, you're not interested in intelligent and fact-based discussions.

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Friday, June 6, 2014 2:02 PM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity



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Friday, June 6, 2014 2:07 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


So, where am I wrong? What have I written that isn't true? Be specific. Refer to real world events. Because, again, if name-calling is your only argument (and it seems that it is) then I'm still thinking that you've not got a winning argument at-hand.

The end.


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Friday, June 6, 2014 2:21 PM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity



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Friday, June 6, 2014 2:38 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


"it is not worth the trouble".

Then why are you even here and posting, if you don't want to discuss things with people that you disagree with? Just here for a little mutual back-stroking with like minds?

Also, you may have noticed that my posts refer to a LOT MORE THAN Ukraine. Here's a thought-

Why don't you show me how THIS TIME our policy in Ukraine is different from the LAST TIME in Syria, and the times before that in Libya, Egypt, Sudan, Honduras, El Salvador, Chile, Vietnam, Iran, Brazil, Panama, and Indonesia? Explain how it is that - even though we start out with different rationalizations - we wind up creating clusterfucks of poverty and tyranny nearly everywhere we go?

Or, better yet, be proactive. As I challenged you earlier, show me how our foreign policy has made this messy world a better place to live for everyone. Alternatively, show me how our foreign policy has furthered OUR national interests and made OUR nation, at least, a better place to live. Or, if you really want to be ambitious, do both.

I'll bet you dollars to donuts you do none of those things, because - as you yourself said- it's just too much trouble (for you) to have a real discussion on anything. Perhaps it's just too much trouble (for you) to rouse yourself out of your ideological/ patriotic stupor. At least that's one thing we both agree on.

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Friday, June 6, 2014 2:48 PM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity



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Friday, June 6, 2014 3:06 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

To present my thoughts to others who are capable of understanding them. On this you apparently can not.
You haven't presented your thoughts in ways that can be "understood". You've stated your feelings in ways that can only be agreed (or disagreed) with. Understanding isn't possible at that level of discourse. Apparently you don't know what real discussion is. What it normally entails is that one person presents a thought along with the facts and logic used to reach that conclusion, Others agree or disagree with either the facts or the logic, they are examined separately and together, in detail, possibly to reach new conclusions. Capice?

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Friday, June 6, 2014 3:22 PM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity



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Friday, June 6, 2014 4:18 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

What I know is when I am conversing with someone who is predisposed to a belief
Funny, but I feel the same way about you.

So, in detail

Quote:

You know I saw threads going on and on about all this and the propaganda was flying.
It still is. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=58150

Quote:

How most Ukrainians wanted to join with Russia
Bull. What I've said from the beginning was that a significant minority (roughly 30-35%) wanted closer ties with Russia, and no majority in previous polls wanted closer ties with the EU. In other words, there were people all over the spectrum on this issue.
Quote:

how our press was lying.
It was and it still is.

Quote:

To me the vote taken shows it wasn't even close and never was
So, you seem to think that the vast majority of Ukrainians (or at least over 50%) of the people are fully behind Poroshenko. So, BTW- do you know what percent of people didn't vote, or couldn't vote?

Quote:

Which is why in the East they blocked as many as they could from even casting a vote. The garbage that was flying around was unreal. Anybody willing to eat the crow they deserve?
I could say the same thing about the vote that brought Yanukovich to power, or the vote in Crimea. You seem only to recognize the votes that turn out the way you want, not the process of democracy itself.

Quote:

Anyone willing to admit the Ukrainians made up their own minds and want closer ties with Europe and the United States.
Again, you seem to think that "Ukrainians" are a uniform block. There are strong divisions among them.

Quote:

Which is why Russia got involved in the first place.
How?? What did Russia actually do? Send their political leaders to the eastern Ukraine to hand out cookies and provide photo-ops?
Quote:

Because The Ukrainians saw their relationship with Russia as a dead end and their leader as nothing more than a sock puppet for Putin?
Again, SOME Ukrainians saw the relationship with Russia as a dead-end. SOME Ukrainians wanted much closer ties.

Quote:

Anyone willing to admit all they wanted was change and to clean out the corrupted leaders from their government that were stealing from them.
SOME of them wanted change. SOME of them (the fascists) wanted power. SOME of them wanted to break away. The funny thing is, Kiev wound up with just another oligarch anyway.

Quote:

Anyone want to admit Russia is and has been making this much worse then it had to be?
Because they... what? Sent in troops? Provided "security advisors" to eastern Ukraine, like the CIA and FBI in Kiev? Provided weapons and aid to eastern Ukraine rebels, as Obama is doing for Kiev?

Quote:

Anyone what [sic] to say they hope things work out in the Ukraine the way the Ukrainians want them to?
I hope everyone gets something of what they want. Since not everybody wants the same thing, that may mean some form of federalization.

Quote:

Anyone who quoted the Russian papers willing to admit they may have been mistaken and they got it wrong?
Provide the quotes, and demonstrate where/how they were wrong. Use facts.

You see? THAT'S a discussion, if you care to join.

-----------------------

Did you think that Saddam had WMD?
Did you think that Assad used chemical weapons in Syria?
Were you surprised by 9-11?
Did you predict the meltdown of 2008?
Did you think that Russia invaded Georgia unprovoked?

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Saturday, June 7, 2014 8:40 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


MIKER, I've responded to your comments in detail. Care to join this discussion?

Oh, BTW- approximately 15% of the electorate couldn't vote, and 55% DIDN'T vote (low voter turnout, cynicism about the candidates). If about half of the voters voted for Poroshneko, that represents about 15% of the total number voters. So Poroshenko was elected by 15% of voting population.

Yep, you're right- it wasn't even close.

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