REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

IMF to Kiev - fight for eastern Ukraine or die

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Friday, August 4, 2023 17:04
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Sunday, May 4, 2014 3:23 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
"I am on the side of democracy."

Then find me ONE of your posts where you supported early elections as a democratic solution to the problem of Yanukovych. Just one.

"The cause you champion in your posts is all against the new Ukrainian government."

What I've been championing is democracy. Government through the process of election, not coup.

"If the government doesn't abide by that then the people have the right to throw the government out."

Yes, ALL the people COULD have had a chance to vote and decide. But that's not good enough for you.

Anyway, by your bad English I presume you're a plant.



Still completely ignoring that fact that the country is still getting early elections, or that fact that the Parliament is the one that was elected. Yanukovych's party is still the largest block in the Parliament, so those decisions are not just being taken by the opposition.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Sunday, May 4, 2014 3:34 PM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity


Hey, how about we drop some of the repetitive quotes and stop doing what some must be doing to turn it all blue. What do ya say?

Let the point you want to make speak for itself. I don't mind you putting my words in blue to separate them from yours if the are relevant to what you are asking, but too much of this stuff is off the point, repetitive and irrelevant to your inquiry. It is a bunch of crap that has nothing to do with your latest question. Especially if you new post consists of a few lines yet it appears to be a city block long. I may want to use a small part as a quote to be accurate in my response to what you are asking but it is a garbled mess.

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Sunday, May 4, 2014 3:35 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

You doubt Russia's involvement in the East, but it's worth noting that if the national elections went ahead they would be a disaster for the pro-Russia parties, and for Putin, who wants Ukraine as part of his Eurasian Union, along with Belarus and Kazakhstan (and now Belarus's president is voicing doubts about joining).
I do? Before you start telling me what I said and what I think, you might want to go back and read my posts. Show me where I said anything about it, because right now you're making assumptions, like you've been making all along.


I got it from this quote:

Quote:

So the United States will further sanction Russia because Obama is ASSUMING that Russia is at the heart of all this and has sufficient control to stop the violence.

It's open to interpretation I suppose, but it sounds as if there's doubt there, about Russia's involvement.



It's not personal. It's just war.

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Sunday, May 4, 2014 3:40 PM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
"I am on the side of democracy."

Then find me ONE of your posts where you supported early elections as a democratic solution to the problem of Yanukovych. Just one.

"The cause you champion in your posts is all against the new Ukrainian government."

What I've been championing is democracy. Government through the process of election, not coup.

"If the government doesn't abide by that then the people have the right to throw the government out."

Yes, ALL the people COULD have had a chance to vote and decide. But that's not good enough for you.

Anyway, by your bad English I presume you're a plant.



Still completely ignoring that fact that the country is still getting early elections, or that fact that the Parliament is the one that was elected. Yanukovych's party is still the largest block in the Parliament, so those decisions are not just being taken by the opposition.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.



What has this got to do with my question about the topic of the thread and the opening statements? I asked this question of you in my last post and this is what you respond with?

"It seems clear to me that the USA, the EU, and NATO are doing everything they can to provoke a war with Russia".

Why do so many of you refuse to answer what is asked of you and post something completely off the topic of the thread.

If you wish to speak to me answer the question I pose to you. Then I will answer what you ask of me. OK......


Come on M52nickerson, don't repost a bunch of nonsense just answer the question.

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Sunday, May 4, 2014 3:46 PM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

You doubt Russia's involvement in the East, but it's worth noting that if the national elections went ahead they would be a disaster for the pro-Russia parties, and for Putin, who wants Ukraine as part of his Eurasian Union, along with Belarus and Kazakhstan (and now Belarus's president is voicing doubts about joining).
I do? Before you start telling me what I said and what I think, you might want to go back and read my posts. Show me where I said anything about it, because right now you're making assumptions, like you've been making all along.


I got it from this quote:

Quote:

So the United States will further sanction Russia because Obama is ASSUMING that Russia is at the heart of all this and has sufficient control to stop the violence.

It's open to interpretation I suppose, but it sounds as if there's doubt there, about Russia's involvement.



It's not personal. It's just war.



Let's not forget the Russian license plates on the vehicles moving the troops in full Russia garb, masks and insignia removed around Crimea as it was being overthrown OK. GIVE ME A BREAK.

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Sunday, May 4, 2014 4:00 PM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity





Come on M52nickerson, don't repost a bunch of nonsense just answer the question.

Do you agree with the premise of the thread and blame the US, EU and NATO for the mess in the Ukraine and instigating the violence.

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Sunday, May 4, 2014 4:01 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Miker

I responded to your post point by point. That is called being 'on topic' You don't like it? Too bad.

As for my 'logos' - it's a built-in function of this website that I AND MANY PEOPLE use. Don't like it either? Take it up with Haken and with ALL THE OTHER PEOPLE WHO DO THE SAME. Otherwise, i think you're just being a troll.

Yanno what problem YOU had with the vote?

YOU think that ONLY THOSE PEOPLE PROTESTING deserved to be heard. Everyone else - presumably pro-Russian and pro-Yanukovych - deserved to have their opinions X-ed out. A vote would have let them be heard as well.

As for you bring a plant - lack of denial means something in my book.




OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.
"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

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Sunday, May 4, 2014 4:07 PM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Miker

I responded to your post point by point. That is called being 'on topic' You don't like it? Too bad.

As for my 'logos' - it's a built-in function of this website that I AND MANY PEOPLE use. Don't like it either? Take it up with Haken and with ALL THE OTHER PEOPLE WHO DO THE SAME. Otherwise, i think you're just being a troll.

Yanno what problem YOU had with the vote?

YOU think that ONLY THOSE PEOPLE PROTESTING deserved to be heard. Everyone else - presumably pro-Russian and pro-Yanukovych - deserved to have their opinions X-ed out. A vote would have let them be heard.




OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.
"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."



Bullshit, you respond by mixing it all up, confusing the issues and not in many cases answering what is asked of you but changing the subject. Let's try again.

Do you agree with the premise of the thread that the US, EU and NATO are responsible for the turmoil in the Ukraine and instigating the last round of violence?

And I have every right to ask you not to cut and paste my words in with yours. I don't care if you use quotes or not what I say should come up in blue and yours in white as this site was designed to do.

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Sunday, May 4, 2014 4:07 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Goodbye.



OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.
"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

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Sunday, May 4, 2014 4:09 PM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Goodbye.



OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.
"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."



You can't do it. You can't say that the United States, EU and NATO is not responsible. Nor will you speak to why you think it is.

I rest my case.

One down

Good bye!

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Sunday, May 4, 2014 4:10 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Mr52

We could get past the argument if you could bring yourself to say that in a democratically run country with free and fair elections, and one scheduled to occur, there's no legitimate reason to have an armed coup.

But you can't bring yourself to that point.

Goodbye to you too.



OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.
"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

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Sunday, May 4, 2014 4:16 PM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Mr52

We could get past the argument if you could bring yourself to say that in a democratically run country with free and fair elections, and one scheduled to occur, there's no legitimate reason to have an armed coup.

But you can't bring yourself to that point.

Goodbye to you too.



OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.
"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."



I agree with you 100%, that in a working democracy it is not necessary. I just don't believe that is the case in the Ukraine.

My problem is who some of the people hear are blaming or in how they are not addressing those who are blaming the US and our allies.

And that is what this thread was about.

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Sunday, May 4, 2014 4:38 PM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity


Quote:

Originally posted by MIKER:
Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Mr52

We could get past the argument if you could bring yourself to say that in a democratically run country with free and fair elections, and one scheduled to occur, there's no legitimate reason to have an armed coup.

But you can't bring yourself to that point.

Goodbye to you too.



OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.
"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."



I agree with you 100%, that in a working democracy it is not necessary. I just don't believe that is the case in the Ukraine.

My problem is who some of the people hear are blaming or in how they are not addressing those who are blaming the US and our allies.

And that is what this thread was about.



Time to answer the question. Do YOU think the US, EU and NATO are responsible for the turmoil in the Ukraine and also for the uptick in violence?

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Sunday, May 4, 2014 4:45 PM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity


Quote:

Originally posted by MIKER:
Quote:

Originally posted by MIKER:
Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Mr52

We could get past the argument if you could bring yourself to say that in a democratically run country with free and fair elections, and one scheduled to occur, there's no legitimate reason to have an armed coup.

But you can't bring yourself to that point.

Goodbye to you too.



OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.
"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."


I agree with you 100%, that in a working democracy it is not necessary. I just don't believe that is the case in the Ukraine.

My problem is who some of the people hear are blaming or in how they are not addressing those who are blaming the US and our allies.

And that is what this thread was about.



Time to answer the question. Do YOU think the US, EU and NATO are responsible for the turmoil in the Ukraine and also for the uptick in violence?



Come on M52nickerson I put the same question to you and have yet to hear a response. At least SIGNYM has the courage of her convictions and admitted she did. I admire that.

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Sunday, May 4, 2014 4:55 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by MIKER:



Come on M52nickerson, don't repost a bunch of nonsense just answer the question.

Do you agree with the premise of the thread and blame the US, EU and NATO for the mess in the Ukraine and instigating the violence.



I did not see your question earlier, sorry.

No I do not agree that the US, EU and NATO are to blame for the problems in the Ukraine. Ultimately this is about Putin trying to avoid losing influence over Ukraine. It has been said before that Russia with Ukraine is an empire, but without it, Russia is just another country. Now Yanukovych was put in a very tough spot with the pressure put on him by Moscow not to sign the EU deal. The EU's response did not help, but ultimately his decisions lead to his downfall.

One thing that has to be understood is that the US and NATO are not going to war with Russia over Ukraine. Even if Putin send troops, other than the ones there, into other Russian speaking provinces we are not going to see a physical war. We will see hard sanctions. Many of those will hurt the EU as well because of trade ties with Russia.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Sunday, May 4, 2014 5:04 PM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity


Quote:

Originally posted by MIKER:
Quote:

Originally posted by MIKER:
Quote:

Originally posted by MIKER:
Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Mr52

We could get past the argument if you could bring yourself to say that in a democratically run country with free and fair elections, and one scheduled to occur, there's no legitimate reason to have an armed coup.

But you can't bring yourself to that point.

Goodbye to you too.



OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.
"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."



I agree with you 100%, that in a working democracy it is not necessary. I just don't believe that is the case in the Ukraine.

My problem is who some of the people hear are blaming or in how they are not addressing those who are blaming the US and our allies.

And that is what this thread was about.



Time to answer the question. Do YOU think the US, EU and NATO are responsible for the turmoil in the Ukraine and also for the uptick in violence?



Come on M52nickerson I put the same question to you and have yet to hear a response. At least SIGNYM has the courage of her convictions and admitted she did. I admire that.



If you have been following this post and or have contributed to it I would love to hear your opinion on what this thread suggests as far as the title and the opening statement I and quoting here:



"It seems clear to me that the USA, the EU, and NATO are doing everything they can to provoke a war with Russia".

I would like to put this to bed. I will take any further posts that do not directly address this question but attempts to once again change the subject as a yes.



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Sunday, May 4, 2014 5:07 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Mr52

We could get past the argument if you could bring yourself to say that in a democratically run country with free and fair elections, and one scheduled to occur, there's no legitimate reason to have an armed coup.

But you can't bring yourself to that point.

Goodbye to you too.



The agreement that was signed did not scheduled elections. It merely set a date by which they would have to happen. A date with was damn near a year away. Nothing in that agreement forbid the Parliament from beginning impeachment proceedings against a President they believed had protesters killed. The Parliament realized that the people were not going to just sit and allow the President to remain in power for that long a time. Yanukovych than bugged out, with all of his ministers.

The democratically elected Parliament then made the choice to place an interim President and scheduled free and fair elections a few months later.

So what you are arguing should have happened would have left a President who had already had political opponents jailed, and had people killed, in power for almost a year before elections.

What we got is an interim President, appointed the Parliament including the former presidents own majority party, and elections later this month. The only problems this is causing are due to the fact that Putin is not happy.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Sunday, May 4, 2014 5:08 PM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Quote:

Originally posted by MIKER:



Come on M52nickerson, don't repost a bunch of nonsense just answer the question.

Do you agree with the premise of the thread and blame the US, EU and NATO for the mess in the Ukraine and instigating the violence.



I did not see your question earlier, sorry.

No I do not agree that the US, EU and NATO are to blame for the problems in the Ukraine. Ultimately this is about Putin trying to avoid losing influence over Ukraine. It has been said before that Russia with Ukraine is an empire, but without it, Russia is just another country. Now Yanukovych was put in a very tough spot with the pressure put on him by Moscow not to sign the EU deal. The EU's response did not help, but ultimately his decisions lead to his downfall.

One thing that has to be understood is that the US and NATO are not going to war with Russia over Ukraine. Even if Putin send troops, other than the ones there, into other Russian speaking provinces we are not going to see a physical war. We will see hard sanctions. Many of those will hurt the EU as well because of trade ties with Russia.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.



Thank you I didn't think you agreed with the premise of the thread and was perplexed by your nonresponse.

I agree with all you say here.

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Sunday, May 4, 2014 5:16 PM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Mr52

We could get past the argument if you could bring yourself to say that in a democratically run country with free and fair elections, and one scheduled to occur, there's no legitimate reason to have an armed coup.

But you can't bring yourself to that point.

Goodbye to you too.



The agreement that was signed did not scheduled elections. It merely set a date by which they would have to happen. A date with was damn near a year away. Nothing in that agreement forbid the Parliament from beginning impeachment proceedings against a President they believed had protesters killed. The Parliament realized that the people were not going to just sit and allow the President to remain in power for that long a time. Yanukovych than bugged out, with all of his ministers.

The democratically elected Parliament then made the choice to place an interim President and scheduled free and fair elections a few months later.

So what you are arguing should have happened would have left a President who had already had political opponents jailed, and had people killed, in power for almost a year before elections.

What we got is an interim President, appointed the Parliament including the former presidents own majority party, and elections later this month. The only problems this is causing are due to the fact that Putin is not happy.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.



Just saw this, great, like it.

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Sunday, May 4, 2014 6:51 PM

JONGSSTRAW


4 pages of jerkoffmanship



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Sunday, May 4, 2014 6:54 PM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
4 pages of jerkoffmanship





Please don't say the biggest dick won.

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Sunday, May 4, 2014 11:28 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


MIKER
Quote:

You are confusing business with covert operations. A majority of Ukrainians are tired of the corruption and living in poverty due to putting Russia first. They want better. To do this they recognized they need better ties to the EU and WEST.
A whole paragraph, and not one realistic thought! A majority of Ukrainians are tired of corruption? That's why the voted for Yanukovych! They were tired of Yulia Tymoshenko, the Orange Revolutionary who made such a bad deal with Russia that the Ukraine has been hemorrhaging money ever since! "They" didn't want better ties to the west, SOME OF THEM did.

MIKER, your knowledge of history and current events is pathetic. How did you have such a well-connected cousin and live so many years and learn nothing?

M52

You keep repeating, over and over again as if it was some sort of truth, that Yanukovych was responsible for killing scores of people. And yet... (from AP)

Quote:

One of the biggest mysteries hanging over the protest mayhem that drove Ukraine’s president from power: Who was behind the snipers who sowed death and terror in Kiev?.... Ukrainian authorities are investigating the Feb. 18-20 bloodbath, and they have shifted their focus from ousted President Viktor Yanukovych’s government - [because he probably wasn't at fault- SIGNY] to Vladimir Putin’s Russia — pursuing the theory that the Kremlin was intent on sowing mayhem as a pretext for military incursion. Russia suggests that the snipers were organized by opposition leaders trying to whip up local and international outrage against the government.

The government’s new health minister — a doctor who helped oversee medical treatment for casualties during the protests — told The Associated Press that the similarity of bullet wounds suffered by opposition victims and police indicates the shooters were trying to stoke tensions on both sides and spark even greater violence, with the goal of toppling Yanukovych.

“I think it wasn’t just a part of the old regime that (plotted the provocation), but it was also the work of Russian special forces who served and maintained the ideology of the (old) regime,” Health Minister Oleh Musiy said.

As much of an outrage as it was, and as tempting as it is to blame the event on someone ... ANYONE... the reality is that nobody has really figured out WHO was behind the snipers. But apparently, even the Kiev government finds Yanukovych to be an less probable suspect. So dial down the outrage, it's misdirected!

Also, if I'm categorically wrong about the UN vote, so is MIKER. And if you want to figure out who is "closer"- I was off by 3%, MIKER was off by 47%. IMHO, you're TRYING to be objective, but you're still not. But- nice try. At least you didn't descend into the pigpen with Jongsstraw and MikeR so- good on ya.

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Monday, May 5, 2014 2:28 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
MIKER
Quote:

You are confusing business with covert operations. A majority of Ukrainians are tired of the corruption and living in poverty due to putting Russia first. They want better. To do this they recognized they need better ties to the EU and WEST.
A whole paragraph, and not one realistic thought! A majority of Ukrainians are tired of corruption? That's why the voted for Yanukovych! They were tired of Yulia Tymoshenko, the Orange Revolutionary who made such a bad deal with Russia that the Ukraine has been hemorrhaging money ever since! "They" didn't want better ties to the west, SOME OF THEM did.

MIKER, your knowledge of history and current events is pathetic. How did you have such a well-connected cousin and live so many years and learn nothing?

M52

You keep repeating, over and over again as if it was some sort of truth, that Yanukovych was responsible for killing scores of people. And yet... (from AP)

Quote:

One of the biggest mysteries hanging over the protest mayhem that drove Ukraine’s president from power: Who was behind the snipers who sowed death and terror in Kiev?.... Ukrainian authorities are investigating the Feb. 18-20 bloodbath, and they have shifted their focus from ousted President Viktor Yanukovych’s government - [because he probably wasn't at fault- SIGNY] to Vladimir Putin’s Russia — pursuing the theory that the Kremlin was intent on sowing mayhem as a pretext for military incursion. Russia suggests that the snipers were organized by opposition leaders trying to whip up local and international outrage against the government.

The government’s new health minister — a doctor who helped oversee medical treatment for casualties during the protests — told The Associated Press that the similarity of bullet wounds suffered by opposition victims and police indicates the shooters were trying to stoke tensions on both sides and spark even greater violence, with the goal of toppling Yanukovych.

“I think it wasn’t just a part of the old regime that (plotted the provocation), but it was also the work of Russian special forces who served and maintained the ideology of the (old) regime,” Health Minister Oleh Musiy said.

As much of an outrage as it was, and as tempting as it is to blame the event on someone ... ANYONE... the reality is that nobody has really figured out WHO was behind the snipers. But apparently, even the Kiev government finds Yanukovych to be an less probable suspect. So dial down the outrage, it's misdirected!

Also, if I'm categorically wrong about the UN vote, so is MIKER. And if you want to figure out who is "closer"- I was off by 3%, MIKER was off by 47%. IMHO, you're TRYING to be objective, but you're still not. But- nice try. At least you didn't descend into the pigpen with Jongsstraw and MikeR so- good on ya.



http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26868119

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Monday, October 19, 2015 8:02 PM

THGRRI



Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
It seems clear to me that the USA, the EU, and NATO are doing everything they can to provoke a war with Russia. This includes providing political cover and cookies and photo-ops with John McCain for Ukraine’s neo-Nazis, personally insulting Putin, breaking negotiated agreements with Russia, endlessly threatening sanctions, and lying in the press (with fake photos, fake flyers, and false reports).

The latest entry into the “provoke a war” campaign is the IMF. The IMF seems intent on pitting Ukraine into a death-match with Russia by threatening their loan status: Fight, or else your loan conditions will be ‘renegotiated’. Since Ukraine’s economy is hanging on ONLY by this thread, the IMF’s statement is an existential threat to the Kiev government.

At this juncture, there’s no point in trying to figure who is behind all this. With the entry of the IMF (and for all I know, the remainder of the troika: the European Commission and the European Central Bank ECB) into the fray, this is clearly a well-coordinated plan, with the USA and the EU and the IMF alternately taking turns to push the project forward, creating no discernable division of interest between them.

Until recently, the Kiev government has been reluctant to mobilize its army because the army itself is probably divided; there have been reports of “security forces” defecting to the east. Instead, the Kiev government has been trying to create citizen militias… pro-Nazi groups and other irregular forces to take the place of the army.

Since the IMF has threatened to renegotiate the loan status, Turchinov, the unelected President of Kiev… oops, I mean Ukraine… has reinstated the draft. I can't imagine what liberal pro-western Ukrainians are thinking now... "Doubled gas prices? Halved pensions? And now the draft???"

----------------------------

Ukraine unrest: Kiev 'helpless' to quell parts of east
Ukraine's acting President Olexander Turchynov has admitted his forces are "helpless" to quell unrest driven by pro-Russian activists in the eastern regions of Donetsk and Luhansk. Mr Turchynov said the goal was now to prevent the unrest spreading.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27222023

Ukraine crisis: Russian flags fill May Day rally
Thousands of protesters carrying Russian flags filled the street of Donetsk on Friday, as part of a May Day rally.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27241740

IM F : $17 bn loan would need overhaul if Ukraine loses east
The IMF says its just-announced $17 billion rescue program for Ukraine would have to be overhauled if the country loses control of the economically important eastern region to pro-Russian separatists.
https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/imf-17-bn-loan-overhaul-164648824.ht
ml


Ukraine crisis: Kiev reinstates conscription
Ukraine's acting President Olexander Turchynov has reinstated military conscription to deal with deteriorating security in the east of the country. The move, announced in a decree, came as pro-Russia militants seized the regional prosecutor's office in the eastern city of Donetsk.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27247428]


b]



Posted by Miker in response:


Here is a quote from the first link you provided as proof of your delusion that the US and EU are instigating things in the Ukraine.

"The acting president of Ukraine said that the tens of thousands of Russian troops stationed just over the border meant that "the threat of Russia starting a war against mainland Ukraine is real". Russia, which annexed the Crimea region from Ukraine last month, has said it has no plans to invade the east". Annexed means invaded and stole in this case. Did the US and EU goad Russia into that. I am sure you can cut and paste far out opinions about that but it would still be bull.

The BBC article says nothing about The US or EU being responsible for this crises, only how they have offered support to Ukraine and put sanctions in place to deter Putin. Which makes me wonder why you offer this first link up as verifying what you clam. You know the title to this thread, which is what you are purporting to be writing about. IMF TO KIEV- FIGHT FOR EASTERN UKRAINE OR DIE. Did you think no one would follow the links and read the articles.

This is where I wound up following your second link: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/04/world/europe/ukraine.html?_r=0
Here is a quote from there.

"The German-led team was detained on April 25 while carrying out a mission for the 57-nation Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, to which Russia, Ukraine and the United States belong". This is an organization put in place to monitor human rights and has existed long before this started in the Ukraine.

Wow, sounds like a real bunch of trouble makers to me, huh! Again this link not only does not support your claims but it suggests like the first link you are wrong and that Russia is pulling all the strings. Can't wait to see what goodies link 3 has in store.

Here is a quote from link three." The International Monetary Fund's official report on the emergency loan, released Thursday, concedes that there are deep risks to its successful implementation, including the quickly eroding economy, corruption, and the current and future government's ability to implement much-needed reforms".

Let's see. The EU the US and the IMF are not to be concerned about loaning the Ukraine 17 billion dollars while it is under assault from Russia? That they may be putting that money into the hands of pro Russian leaders, and funneled out of the country if they gain the upper hand. We are talking 17 billion dollars and they are trying to safe guard it from the wrong people getting hold of it. Makes perfect sense to me. The point is that the world is trying to help and not screw themselves at the same time. It is common sense, and once again the article says nothing to support your claims that the US or EU is behind Ukraine's troubles, but instead it suggests we are trying to help.

Ok I am not even going to follow the last link because I can read what the link says. Here is what it says to me. News flash, Ukraine stands up for it's rights to be a sovereign nation and begins to fight back.

I decided to speak to this after reading how sassy you became after I decided to stop arguing with a Idealist. This opinion you have posted that you claim to back up with facts, is not. You have posted links to articles that don't support your claims that the US and EU are behind the escalating violence. Yes there is all kinds of problems with the Ukrainian military because of it's history. However, none of what is being reported by reputable sources points to the US or the EU as you claim, to being behind the aggressions taking place. What the links provide is just more prof of the bios towards the west that exists in your mind. Here are two quotes from what you wrote to show how screwed up you are. "It seems clear to me that the USA, the EU, and NATO are doing everything they can to provoke a war with Russia". First line you write." At this juncture, there’s no point in trying to figure who is behind all this". First line third paragraph. Man you are all over the map trying to find ways to make the victims out to be the bad guys. By the way, it is funny how you call the Ukrainians fighting for their freedom from corruption and Russia Neo Nazis, which is exactly what Putin calls them. Excuse me I must go now and cut and paste my fantasy garden.

Dos ve donya comrade: you keep on believing.

Quote:

THGRRI


HEY SIG, LOOK WHAT I FOUND. MORE OF YOUR LIES AND PROPAGANDA THROWN BACK INTO YOUR FACE.



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Tuesday, October 20, 2015 10:13 AM

THGRRI


Here you go G, this is reporting on Russia troop involvements in Russia going back to March. I'd say 12,000 along with the twenty thousand in Crimea constitutes an invasion.

The Kremlin has denied its forces are directly involved in combat, but the latest estimate by US Lt Gen Ben Hodges, commander of the US Army in Europe, says 12,000 Russian troops are operating inside the neighbouring country.

As the conflict there has worn, on this intervention has become increasingly hard to hide, growing bigger, with more advanced weapons, and capturing more territory for the nominal "separatist army".


The Russian army determined a change in the way it would use force across the border, forming composite units of volunteers from a variety of garrisons and units so their identity would be harder to prove

The evidence of the Kremlin's direct military involvement can be gleaned

from many different types of sources:

?Russian mainstream and social media

?reporters on the ground

?Ukrainian media

?analysis of freely available satellite imagery by citizen journalists
?information released by the US and its Nato allies

For those distrustful of the Pentagon or Western intelligence agencies, you can set their information entirely aside.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31794523



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Wednesday, October 21, 2015 3:36 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by G:
Quote:

Originally posted by THGRRI:
Here you go G, this is reporting on Russia troop involvements in Russia going back to March. I'd say 12,000 along with the twenty thousand in Crimea constitutes an invasion.



Yes, even Putin couldn't hide invading Crimea. Couldn't even hide it by removing their insignias. What an entertaining, dangerous clown.



Dangerous and warped. Forget about the troops in Crimea, could you imagine the United States having 12,000 troops fighting in a foreign country and denying it. Who would we be fooling, no one. Same with Putin but he keeps saying it isn't so.

Clown or...






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Thursday, October 22, 2015 1:57 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


US Lt Gen Ben Hodges, commander of the US Army in Europe, says 12,000 Russian troops are operating inside Ukraine. that's a spectacular claim.

What does the BBC present as evidence in its article?

The article goes on to CLAIM various sources for the information, but the only link is on 'latest estimate' which leads to a story with a link on 'satellite imagery' which leads to a website of amateur image analysis claiming 1,000 troops crossed the border back in August, 2014.
http://thehigherlearning.com/2014/08/28/1000-russian-troops-have-cross
ed-into-ukraine-along-with-tanks-and-heavy-armor
/

a link on 'new assessment' which provides zero evidence for its claims https://www.rusi.org/downloads/assets/201503_BP_Russian_Forces_in_Ukra
ine_FINAL.pdf
.

a link about 10 captured soldiers from August, 2014 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28934213

and a link on 'committed specialists' which talks about 'small numbers' of specialists. http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/02/04/us-ukraine-crisis-nato-usa-i
dUSKBN0L81S220150204



The CLAIMS are about 12,000 Russian soldiers currently in Ukraine. The CURRENT evidence is zero.

The evidence is underwhelming.




Can you say 'echo chamber'? Sure you can.

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Thursday, October 22, 2015 4:50 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.




Huh, THUGR actually posted something relevant to himself.

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Thursday, October 22, 2015 10:28 AM

THGRRI


I followed 1kiki's link and this is what I found. Let me be clear, this is 1kiki's link.


Mykhailo Lysenko, the deputy commander of the Ukrainian battalion in the Donbas region of eastern Ukraine, called Russia’s incursion, “…a full scale invasion.”

Ukrainian Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk was a bit more direct, saying,

“Vladimir Putin has purposely started a war in Europe. It is impossible to hide from the fact.”

The United States has been wary about pointing the finger at Russia since this whole conflict began, but it seems that the U.S. is no longer mincing its words.

Geoffrey Pyatt, the U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine, used his Twitter account to echo the reports coming from the U.S. State Department. Among his many tweets, Pyatt said,

“Russian-supplied tanks, armored vehicles, artillery and multiple rocket launchers have been insufficient to defeat Ukraine’s armed forces, so now an increasing number of Russian troops are intervening directly in the fighting on Ukrainian territory…
“Russia has also sent its newest air defense systems including the SA-22 into eastern Ukraine and is now directly involved in the fighting.”



http://thehigherlearning.com/2014/08/28/1000-russian-troops-have-cross
ed-into-ukraine-along-with-tanks-and-heavy-armor
/


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Saturday, October 24, 2015 1:24 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Called ... saying ... tweets ... and a 'photo' of unknown provenance 'analyzed' on an amateur website - yeah, that's evidence! Not.






SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Saturday, October 24, 2015 10:13 AM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Called ... saying ... tweets ... and a 'photo' of unknown provenance 'analyzed' on an amateur website - yeah, that's evidence! Not.



I'm sorry 1kiki, all I did was follow your link and post it. If you don't want us to actually follow a link and read it don't post it.


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Saturday, October 24, 2015 11:46 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


And I'm pointing out that your post doesn't support the CLAIM that there are 12,000 Russian troops currently in Ukraine - seeing as how it has no evidence and is over a year old.


What I'm curious about is - why did you post it? What argument do you think you're making? What am I supposed to take away from your post besides that you either don't or can't read, or think, or tell the truth?

Is that what you're trying to prove?




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Saturday, October 24, 2015 9:23 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
And I'm pointing out that your post doesn't support the CLAIM that there are 12,000 Russian troops currently in Ukraine - seeing as how it has no evidence and is over a year old.


What I'm curious about is - why did you post it? What argument do you think you're making? What am I supposed to take away from your post besides that you either don't or can't read, or think, or tell the truth?

Is that what you're trying to prove?




It's your link why did you post it? Or if you are talking about the link I posted for G, then it deals with the intelligence and estimates of troop movements of the time.


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Saturday, October 24, 2015 9:31 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"It's your link why did you post it?"

As yet another example of the shit you all eat up that has no evidence for your claims.

So - why did YOU REpost it?

To show what kinds of idiotic shit an idiot like you assumes?




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Saturday, October 24, 2015 10:18 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
"It's your link why did you post it?"

As yet another example of the shit you all eat up that has no evidence for your claims.

So - why did YOU REpost it?

To show what kinds of idiotic shit an idiot like you assumes?




Nope comrade troll that's not why you posted the link at all. You posted it to confuse. That's why you left a confusing statement about the links meaning. It's the kind of posting many here have confronted you about....SUBJECTIVE...


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Saturday, October 24, 2015 10:23 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"You posted it to confuse."

Because I know facts confuse you!




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Sunday, October 25, 2015 9:30 AM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
"You posted it to confuse."

Because I know facts confuse you!




It's your link asshole. All I did was say hey guys I am reposting comrade trolls link.


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Sunday, October 25, 2015 12:38 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"reposting comrade trolls link"

That was in YOUR BBC article. I simply clicked on all the links in YOUR BBC article. So it's YOUR link.



You really ARE confused. Comrade THUGGR.




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Sunday, October 25, 2015 8:44 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
"reposting comrade trolls link"

That was in YOUR BBC article. I simply clicked on all the links in YOUR BBC article. So it's YOUR link.



You really ARE confused. Comrade THUGGR.




The link I posted was the story I was referencing. You decided to post other links found on the page. Live with it...


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Tuesday, February 22, 2022 6:27 AM

JAYNEZTOWN

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Tuesday, February 22, 2022 9:08 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

1kiki:
"He was overthrown by his people." A small minority with guns. Is that what you support?

"The ones you apparently support ..." Voted. Overwhelmingly. In large numbers. Freely and democratically. Hmmm ... how many other ways can I say that? Compared to what happened in Kiev, which happened at the point of a gun, what happened in Crimea truly was the will of the people. Why do you have a problem with that?

Let's clear that up first. Why do you support a coup by small numbers of armed extremists, but not an overwhelmingly majority vote by citizens?


Miker:
I see you erased my last post.

Oh, the paranoia! A poster simply does not have the power to erase another poster's content. It was a database fuckup, dood.

Quote:

MIKER: You are not arguing with me on behalf of the Ukrainian people. You are arguing against the world and all of Russia's other neighbors who are scared to death it won't stop here. Remember Georgia?
Oh,, you mean the war that GEORGIA started? (As determined by the EU itself? https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2009/oct/01/russia-georgia-s
outh-ossetia
)

So many people believe in counterfactual "events"! This whole threa is about people believing things that never happened, and deny things that did happen

To be clear

Russia did NOT start the war in Georgia
Yanukovich did NOT order snipers to fire on the Maidan
The USA DID fund the coup in Ukraine, and handpicked the appointed government (Victoria Nuland's conversation on who should be in government and "fuck the EU" was recorded and broadcast for all to hear)
Russia did NOT "invade" and "occupy" eastern Ukraine. At most, they engaged in proxy war.
Crimeans voted overwhelmingly to join Russia. Was it legal? Probably not. Was it the will of Crimeans? Yes, it was.


But lies live on and on. The war which the west has been stoking since 2014 is based on lies, and the west finally got its wish.




-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake


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Tuesday, February 22, 2022 9:35 AM

THG


T







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Tuesday, February 22, 2022 9:44 AM

THG


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Quote:

Originally posted by MIKER:



Come on M52nickerson, don't repost a bunch of nonsense just answer the question.

Do you agree with the premise of the thread and blame the US, EU and NATO for the mess in the Ukraine and instigating the violence.



I did not see your question earlier, sorry.

No I do not agree that the US, EU and NATO are to blame for the problems in the Ukraine. Ultimately this is about Putin trying to avoid losing influence over Ukraine. It has been said before that Russia with Ukraine is an empire, but without it, Russia is just another country. Now Yanukovych was put in a very tough spot with the pressure put on him by Moscow not to sign the EU deal. The EU's response did not help, but ultimately his decisions lead to his downfall.

One thing that has to be understood is that the US and NATO are not going to war with Russia over Ukraine. Even if Putin send troops, other than the ones there, into other Russian speaking provinces we are not going to see a physical war. We will see hard sanctions. Many of those will hurt the EU as well because of trade ties with Russia.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.





T


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Sunday, March 20, 2022 4:58 PM

JAYNEZTOWN


They changed it Kyiv or mandeal effect that old Kiev?

' Ukraine suspends 11 political parties with links to Russia '

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/20/ukraine-suspends-11-poli
tical-parties-with-links-to-russia

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Friday, March 31, 2023 8:39 PM

JAYNEZTOWN


Another stalemate?

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Saturday, April 1, 2023 12:31 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Looks like KIKI and I had this pegged as a coordinated State Dept/EU regime change operation and MIKER, M52NICKERSON, KRAPO were just liberaloid retards and THUGR and JONGSSTRAW were just conservative retards.

-----------
"It may be dangerous to be America's enemy, but to be America's friend is fatal." - Henry Kissinger


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Saturday, April 1, 2023 1:19 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Kiev threatens to take over historic monastery, steal assets and artifacts

Quote:

Orthodox monks expelled from Kyiv-Pechersk Lavra monastery refuse to leave

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/others/orthodox-monks-expelled-from-kyi
v-pechersk-lavra-monastery-refuse-to-leave/ar-AA19gWnK


-----------
"It may be dangerous to be America's enemy, but to be America's friend is fatal." - Henry Kissinger


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Monday, July 10, 2023 5:54 AM

JAYNEZTOWN


Joe Biden to meet Rishi Sunak and King Charles ahead of Nato summit - amid row over cluster bombs

https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/biden-sunak-charles-cluster-bombs/

IMF board completes Ukraine loan review, allowing $890 million withdrawal

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/imf-board-completes-ukraine-loan-
review-allowing-890-mln-withdrawal-2023-06-29
/

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Wednesday, July 26, 2023 7:38 AM

JAYNEZTOWN


A Dictator Imperialist Putin Attacked, he Invaded and Destroys Cities

but looking back, useful or not?


'How It May Have Been Possible to Avoid Ukraine Invasion?'

https://countercurrents.org/2023/07/how-it-may-have-been-possible-to-a
void-ukraine-invasion
/

IMF warns global food prices could skyrocket as Putin withdraws from grain deal

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1795298/Price-grain-Russia-black-
sea-deal-Ukraine

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Thursday, August 3, 2023 3:02 PM

JAYNEZTOWN


So back in May I asked you about Gonzalo Lira. He was the U.S. citizen arrested in Ukraine for posting dissident content online, and you told me the State Department was aware of his arrest in May. And we learned last night through a series of tweets by him that he had been tortured in the Ukrainian prison and he was now on a motorcycle with a broken rib trying to flee to the Hungarian border.
https://www.state.gov/briefings/department-press-briefing-august-1-202
3
/
And so I’m wondering, if this is true, given the State Department knew of his arrest and his detention, how has this been allowed to occur? We have a U.S. citizen being – being detained and perhaps tortured in the prison of one of our strongest allies.

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