REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

How The Truth Is Made At Russia Today

POSTED BY: GEEZER
UPDATED: Tuesday, July 11, 2023 08:22
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Sunday, March 16, 2014 8:22 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

“It was my first job and I feel embarrassed and ashamed.” An inside look at what it’s like to work at the Kremlin-funded media outlet.

Staci Bivens knew something was seriously wrong when her bosses at Russia Today asked her to put together a story alleging that Germany — Europe’s economic powerhouse — was a failed state.

“It was me and two managers and they had already discussed what they wanted,” Bivens, an American who worked in RT’s Moscow headquarters from 2009 through 2011, said of a meeting she’d had to discuss the segment before a planned reporting trip to Germany. “They called me in and it was really surreal. One of the managers said, ‘The story is that the West is failing, Germany is a failed state.’”

Bivens, who had spent time in Germany, told the managers the story wasn’t true — the term “failed state” is reserved for countries that fail to provide basic government services, like Somalia or Congo, not for economically advanced, industrialized nations like Germany. They insisted. Bivens refused. RT flew a crew to Germany ahead of Bivens, who was flown in later to do a few standups and interviews about racism in Germany. It was the beginning of the end of her RT career.

“At that point I’d been there for a little bit and I’d had enough of the insanity,” Bivens said. She stayed until the end of her contract in 2011 and didn’t make an effort to renew it.

Judging by interviews with seven former and current employees, Bivens’ story is typical. RT, the global English-language news network funded by the Russian government, has come into the spotlight since the Russian invasion of Crimea, which the network has defended tooth-and-nail. The invasion has led to two high-profile rebellions within the ranks: first, an on-air condemnation of the invasion by RT America host Abby Martin, followed days later by the live resignation of another host, Liz Wahl. Martin, who hosts an opinion show, said that Russia’s actions were wrong; Wahl, a news anchor, went one step further, saying that she could not work at a network that found Russia’s actions acceptable.

The public shake-up and skewed coverage of Ukraine has pulled aside RT’s curtain, exposing the network’s propaganda apparatus, which relies on a number of Western reporters and producers. Former and current RT employees from both the Moscow headquarters and its D.C. bureau, which heads a channel called RT America, described to BuzzFeed an atmosphere of censorship and pressure, in which young journalists on their first or second job are lured by the promise of a relatively well-paying position covering news for an international network. Except for Bevins and Wahl, all spoke on the condition of anonymity — some because they didn’t want their name associated with the network or were afraid they would face repercussions in their current jobs.

Soon after joining the network, the current and former employees said, they realized they were not covering news, but producing Russian propaganda. Some employees go in clear-eyed, looking for the experience above all else. Others don’t realize what RT really wants until they’re already there. Still others are chosen for already having displayed views amenable to the Kremlin. Anti-American language is injected into TV scripts by editors, and stories that don’t toe the editorial line regularly get killed.

Bivens, a native of the Chicago suburbs, was freelance producing in Chicago when a friend told her RT was hiring in 2009.

“To be honest… I hadn’t heard of it before,” Bivens said. “I assumed that it was comparable to DW or France 24,” she said, referring to English-language channels based in Berlin and Paris.

The Kremlin had launched RT four years before in an attempt to better project its message on the world stage. Putin said in 2013 of the founding of RT, “When we designed this project back in 2005 we intended introducing another strong player on the international scene, a player that wouldn’t just provide an unbiased coverage of the events in Russia but also try, let me stress, I mean — try to break the Anglo-Saxon monopoly on the global information streams.”

Bivens flew to D.C. for an interview with Editor-in-Chief Margarita Simonyan and the D.C. bureau chief, Denis Trunov. Shortly thereafter, she was hired as a reporter and moved to Moscow.

The job quickly began to seem strange. The editing process was multilayered: “First you have somebody who’s a native English speaker, usually British,” Bivens said. This person edits the script for clarity and tightness. “Then you have a Russian and they make sure that it fits whatever narrative they want it to fit.”

Bivens said that apart from the “failed state” story, she was asked to do a segment claiming that Russia did not have a problem with alcoholism after Dmitry Medvedev, then president and now prime minister, proposed legislation that sought to address Russia’s problems with drinking.

“I said, I don’t feel comfortable reporting something I know is not true,” Bivens said. “They sent me to some bogus website that proved this editor’s point. There was all this back and forth. Finally the producer called me back and said, ‘You know what, you’re not the reporter for this job.’”



More at: http://www.buzzfeed.com/rosiegray/how-the-truth-is-made-at-russia-toda
y


ETA: Also a BBC article on this.
http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-echochambers-26585033

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Sunday, March 16, 2014 11:30 AM

JONGSSTRAW


I always wondered how MSNBC operates. Thanks!

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Sunday, March 16, 2014 2:34 PM

REAVERFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
I always wondered how Faux News, the propaganda wing of the RNC, operates. Thanks!

Fixed it for you.

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Sunday, March 16, 2014 2:47 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I know of NO reporting that doesn't have a bias. Geezer gets all twisted because RT is biased, but is very very comfortable with the US press bias.

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Sunday, March 16, 2014 2:50 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


You only have to watch RT for five minutes to know it is Russian propaganda.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Sunday, March 16, 2014 3:04 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


And you only have to watch American television for five minutes (ten, if you're slow) to know that IT'S propaganda.

The trick is to sift truth from spin.


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Sunday, March 16, 2014 4:48 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


I always find holes in the news to be interesting.

For example, the US continuously portrayed the Ukrainian protests as broadly representative and peaceful, and measures taken by the government as excessively repressive and harsh (including deaths from gunshots).

But then, by expanding the menu of news sources, I found out that the democratically elected Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych (who is now described in the western press as being a 'fugitive' and not a 'refugee') had the support of roughly 50% of the population. So were the demonstrations broadly representative? And, by watching irrefutable video available at RT, I found that the 'peaceful demonstrations' were in fact highly violent with paramilitary snipers firing on and killing unarmed police - and demonstrators.

So, obviously the western press routinely fails to report vital facts. That in itself is a piece of information.





OONJERAH
We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

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Sunday, March 16, 2014 5:18 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Why would Western press fail to report on anti-Yanukovic snipers killing police? Why would all Western countries' press sing from the same hymn sheet?

What about the rest of the world's press?

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Sunday, March 16, 2014 5:40 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


You'd have to ask them. Otherwise all you get is my speculation. I'd be happy to share, but I think you'd dismiss it immediately as a stupid opinion. So, why bother?

But ask yourself - did YOU see videos of paramilitary snipers in western news? And yet, those videos exist. Did YOU see polls of support for Yanukovych? And yet they exist.

If I found them, and they exist, why weren't they in the news?

As an aside, I take it you've never had the experience of noticing a news hole. My first time was listening to the CBC radio reporting US 'advisors' in Angola fighting a long-drawn-out war, while US news had nothing. Literally. I went back and forth looking . My second obvious experience was when the League of Arab States voted to let the US in to the first gulf war. The vote count was reported in the morning, and not again for years, literally, it was reported as a 'majority' forever after. I know, because I went looking for those numbers for a long time. Now THAT was a piece of information that was known, but universally withheld, after the initial oops when it slipped out.



OONJERAH
We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

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Sunday, March 16, 2014 6:35 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Why would Western press fail to report on anti-Yanukovic snipers killing police? Why would all Western countries' press sing from the same hymn sheet?
Is this a real question, or are you being ironic?

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Sunday, March 16, 2014 7:06 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


It's a real question.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Sunday, March 16, 2014 10:11 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
And you only have to watch American television for five minutes (ten, if you're slow) to know that IT'S propaganda.

The trick is to sift truth from spin.



Anyone who has an ounce of sense knows every media outlet spins somewhat. What's almost funny about RT is that it doesn't even try to disguise its pro-Russia, anti-West position.

Yet you cite RT as though it were gospel.




"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Sunday, March 16, 2014 10:27 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Nope. I think Signy has caveated it enough so that ANYONE WHO CAN READ would understand that.

So, do you have anything to say about the videos of the paramilitary snipers? How about videos of injured citizens? Or are you going to continue your strawman argument ad nauseam?

ETA: I forgot. You don't know what that is.




And this is Geezer being non-partisan ... HAHAHA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ...
Dem Super Pac slams Obamacare because it really sucks and will cause herpes
Geezer
So some Democrats are running on pointing out that the Healthcare.gov rollout was an unmitigated disaster

I feel so vindicated.

"Just glad that some Democrats are acknowledging the bad job done in developing Healthcare.com." "it'll be interesting to see if these same Democrats acknowledge" "these Democrats seem to understand what the real Obama Kool-Ade drinkers still won't address" " it's about Democrats using criticism of the rollout in their campaign ads".





OONJERAH
We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

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Sunday, March 16, 2014 10:31 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Show me where I cite RT as "gospel".

As far as I'm concerned it's like zerohedge or testosteronepit or counterparties or npr or cnn or xinhua or cctv ... another source of information and a different perspective. But yanno, there are on-the-ground videos that are hard to deny, not commentary or interviews but recordings of actual events that you will NEVER see on western media. And that's a shame because I think people deserve to know all of the truth, not just the sliver that our government wants us to know. If we knew more of the truth, we'd make better decisions.

I don't think that you really believe that I treat RT as gospel. There are all kinds of programs and links that I don't bother bringing here because they add nothing to the discussion. What I think you're really objecting to the fact that I bring it here at all, because it offends your tender sensibilities or something.

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Monday, March 17, 2014 12:08 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Why would Western press fail to report on anti-Yanukovic snipers killing police? Why would all Western countries' press sing from the same hymn sheet?-KPO

Is this a real question, or are you being ironic?-signy

It's a real question. -KPO



Oh, OK.

Governments... and I don't care WHOSE government... want to do certain things that aren't necessarily to the benefit of the average citizen. So they create a narrative, an explanation for their actions which sounds caring, responsible, NECESSARY. If they repeat the narrative often enough, people eventually believe it. But allowing conflicting information brings the narrative into question.

I can point to a lot of actions that were justified by strange narratives. For example, the invasion of Iraq was justified by (the non-connection to) 9-11 and (non-existant) WMD.

As another example, we invaded Panama because Noriega was a hated dictator (he wasn't) and because Panama was a major drug route (it wasn't).

The Ukrainian narrative was that the nation consisted of a population of hostages... Ukrainians yearning to breathe the free market air, longing to join the west, held in place by a corrupt dictator and Russian puppet, Yanukovich. Those poor protesters tried to peacefully express their views in the central square of Maidan, and were brutally put down by that horrible tyrant Yanukovich.

So, in the overall narrative, it wouldn't do to have those "peaceful protesters" as snipers, shooting policemen and "their side" alike in an effort ramp up the violence. Therefore, those images never appeared in western press. It's that simple.

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Monday, March 17, 2014 3:02 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:

Anyone who has an ounce of sense knows every media outlet spins somewhat. What's almost funny about RT is that it doesn't even try to disguise its pro-Russia, anti-West position.



Just as Fox doesn't disguise its political agenda.

Whoever controls the news, holds the power. If you have a variety of sources, you are more likely to be able to sift through the propaganda and find out something akin to truth, if an objective truth is ever possible anyway.

The problem with western news is that its increasingly coming from the same one or two sources, and then the media outlets spin the facts to fit their agenda.


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Monday, March 17, 2014 10:46 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

Why would Western press fail to report on anti-Yanukovic snipers killing police? Why would all Western countries' press sing from the same hymn sheet?-KPO

Is this a real question, or are you being ironic?-signy

It's a real question. -KPO



Oh, OK.

Governments... and I don't care WHOSE government... want to do certain things that aren't necessarily to the benefit of the average citizen. So they create a narrative, an explanation for their actions which sounds caring, responsible, NECESSARY. If they repeat the narrative often enough, people eventually believe it. But allowing conflicting information brings the narrative into question.

I can point to a lot of actions that were justified by strange narratives. For example, the invasion of Iraq was justified by (the non-connection to) 9-11 and (non-existant) WMD.

As another example, we invaded Panama because Noriega was a hated dictator (he wasn't) and because Panama was a major drug route (it wasn't).

The Ukrainian narrative was that the nation consisted of a population of hostages... Ukrainians yearning to breathe the free market air, longing to join the west, held in place by a corrupt dictator and Russian puppet, Yanukovich. Those poor protesters tried to peacefully express their views in the central square of Maidan, and were brutally put down by that horrible tyrant Yanukovich.

So, in the overall narrative, it wouldn't do to have those "peaceful protesters" as snipers, shooting policemen and "their side" alike in an effort ramp up the violence. Therefore, those images never appeared in western press. It's that simple.


I asked about Western media, you answered about Western governments. So apparently you have the view that the media is tightly state-controlled in all Western countries, like it is in Russia. This is news to me. We're coming at this from radically different worldviews.

Also no answer yet on why other news media from around the world report on the situation differently to Russian media. I've just spent the last 15 minutes looking at random 'neutral' countries' media (India, Pakistan, Nepal, Thailand, Nigeria) reporting on the situation in Ukraine. They look very similar to Western media's reporting. So Russian media seems to be the exception.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Monday, March 17, 2014 11:38 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

I asked about Western media, you answered about Western governments. So apparently you have the view that the media is tightly state-controlled in all Western countries, like it is in Russia. This is news to me. We're coming at this from radically different worldviews.
Western (ie USA and European) news is fairly monolithic, and there are several reasons how this occurs. Before I get to that, though, I want to stress how unrealistic and contorted the reporting is. I don't know how old you are, or how far I can refer back to events that you're familiar with, but the major news media has gotten every major international/ political story wrong, starting at least as far back as Vietnam. EVERY USA invasion/ "intervention" has been preceded by a propaganda campaign that significantly misrepresented the facts on the ground. As a result, many of our invasions/ interventions ended in fiasco. That includes the latest USA interference in Ukraine.

Now, HOW CAN THE PRESS BE SO VERY WRONG, SO VERY CONSISTENTLY? You need to get your head out of the mentality that if "everyone" is saying it, it must be true. Because there was a time when everyone said the world was flat too.

The first is that there is very little investigative reporting. "The news" consists almost entirely of news releases by government functionaries at various levels of authority, and repeats from various other media. Want to know about the latest fire? You'll hear about it from the fire chief. The latest crime? That would be your local police department. The White House response to the latest war? The reasons for invading a particular country? You'll get the WH Press Secretary, or the WH advisor to the UN, or some other White House flunky. It works the same in Britain, France, or elsewhere.

I challenge you... go to wherever you get your news from- website, or paper, and take a look at HOW MANY articles are actually NOT sourced from or vetted by a government official? All you have to do is look at the various press conferences that are broadcast, you see reporters who have gravitated (they think) to the center of power, begging for a chance to sit in the front row like school children. OR, better yet- they get "the leak", which is, more often than not, just a more finely calibrated release of disinformation.

The second reason is that governments are assiduous in classifying embarrassing/ important information, and prosecuting anyone with insider knowledge who dares bring it to the media. Look at how Snowden, Assange, Manning, and Greenwald have been treated.

The third is that- yes, there is editorial control of the news. The USA government snoops on reporters including those at Fox. Editors ARE told what stories to cover and which to spike, and how to cover them. Corporations and banks will tend to spike anything that is globally critical of "the system".

I found this online
Quote:

Hello, I’m Byron Christopher, a Canadian reporter with more than three decades’ experience in the mainstream [commercial] media, unfortunately also known as the “lame-stream” media. I’ve worked for independent media as well... Journalism plays an important role in a democracy. I realize that’s stating the obvious, but if people are to make informed choices — the hallmark of a true democracy — they need balanced, verifiable information. Some say that free, uncensored journalism is the very heart of democracy.

What it boils down to, is that reporters should try and make some sense of what is happening in the world. However, that’s easier said than done.

When we read newspapers, watch TV or listen to the radio, it’s impossible for us to know how much is actual news, how much is opinion … and if we’re getting propaganda or corporate public relations. Or, if management has ordered reporters to do stories for political reasons. Thousands of “ifs” could be at play here.

Most grocery products have labels indicating what consumers are getting. But with news content, we will never see the following …

Fact: 30% … Speculation: 40% … Influence by sales staff trying to woo a client: 20% … Censorship: 10% …

The public is at the mercy of news organizations which have their own agendas and bosses to answer to. That’s why it’s hard — perhaps impossible — to find news that’s truly independent.

Another thing: in North America, the vast majority of news organizations are in the hands of very few companies. And, as is the case in Canada, the heads of those news organizations are there because they passed the right test — a DNA test. That’s right. “Daddy owns the company.”

Do you really think a military that hands out junkets to reporters wants the reporters to do an independent job? Not likely. Why do you suppose most news organizations fail to mention that their staff are on paid junkets? That’s easy. It destroys credibility. And when one is on the take, it’s also a tad embarrassing.



Finally, while international reporters and editors and government officials with real power know better, they are speaking to a (by now) totally propagandized nation. Just look at how Geezer reacts to the presence of any POV that doesn't match his. It's a typical reaction of MOST people, because it's very difficult to set aside your most immediate reactions.... responses which have been conditioned for decades... and accept that what has been taught all along might just not be true. But- the world really is round, no matter what people say. (My hubby dismisses majority opinion that he thinks is wrong with the statement "A billion flies eat shit". I tend to agree.)

I was very lucky. I saw a movie in my early 20s- Hearts and Minds- which led to a completely visceral rejection of war-mongering in all of its forms including the latest craze, R2P (responsibility to protect. Wow, the message hasn't changed a whit since Vietnam!). That is one of the reasons why I'm pretty skeptical of Putin's assertion that he is trying to protect the lives of Russian citizens. I've said all along that this is about the Russian naval base, and preventing the eastward expansion of NATO.

Quote:

Also no answer yet on why other news media from around the world report on the situation differently to Russian media. I've just spent the last 15 minutes looking at random 'neutral' countries' media (India, Pakistan, Nepal, Thailand, Nigeria) reporting on the situation in Ukraine. They look very similar to Western media's reporting. So Russian media seems to be the exception
LINKS PLEASE.

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Monday, March 17, 2014 11:50 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Just grabbing the top hits from my search engine

FROM PAKISTAN
Quote:

The current crisis in Ukraine should be viewed in the context of Iraq and Afghan wars as well as centuries old European rivalries. The two contemporary wars produced an economically, diplomatically and militarily weaker USA. This means that America that is a leading power in NATO can no longer afford to engage in another prolonged military struggle with a major power in the world. It is even more difficult because European partners are struggling with economic recession; are exhausted from long wars in Middle East; and are too concerned with maintaining their own alliance in Eurozone as well as need time to convert it into a political entity. ...

....President Putin has a unique profile among the current cadre of world leaders. He has been a soldier, an intelligence officer, a chief of staff and a top politician. No other leader can match this profile in terms of depth of understanding of various dynamics involved in solving a crisis including political, military and diplomatic.


http://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/2014/03/03/comment/ukraine-and-first-w
orld-war
/

FROM INDIA
Quote:

Russian interests in Ukraine's Crimea ‘legitimate’, India says
NEW DELHI: India believes Russia has "legitimate interests" in Ukraine — a position that is opposed to the stand of the west on the latest crisis. Interestingly, China has opposed Russia's intervention in Crimea, deviating from a long-standing support to Moscow in the UN Security Council.


http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Russian-interests-in-Ukraines
-Crimea-legitimate-India-says/articleshow/31638375.cms


FROM CHINA
Quote:

Crimean parliament declares independence from Ukraine 03-17 18:12
The Crimean parliament Monday declared independence from Ukraine, after latest official results show 96.77 percent of Crimean voters chose to join Russia in Sunday's referendum.


http://www.chinaview.cn/

FROM THAILAND
Quote:

Russian economy braces for punishment after Crimea seizure
Zero growth or even recession in 2014, asset freezes in the West and tens of billions of dollars in capital flight -- Russia must brace for the consequences of putting political ambition above economic sense in seizing control of Crimea, analysts say.

Pro-Russian Crimeans gather to celebrate in Lenin Square in Crimea's capital Simferopol on March 16, 2014 after exit polls showed about 93 percent of voters in Ukraine's Crimea region supported union with Russia

The huge 'yes' vote in the disputed referendum in the Ukrainian region of Crimea to become part of Russia means Moscow has claimed an addition to its territory for the first time since the end of World War II. But President Vladimir Putin's swoop has given the Kremlin's economic policy makers an unenviable task of limiting the inevitable damage to the economy which was already showing troubling signs of weakness.

"There are many signs the economy is now being hit by an uncertainty shock," said analysts at VTB Capital, slashing their forecast for growth in Russia in 2014 to zero. "We see downside risks if uncertainty remains elevated for a protracted period or if severe sanctions are imposed," VTB added.

It remains to be seen how far the European Union and the United States dare to go in sanctions -- they could choose more superficial measures like visa bans or tough measures freezing state assets and hitting the wider economy. Analysts call the second option the "Iranian scenario" as it recalls the measures slapped against Tehran over its nuclear programme that eventually brought the Iranian economy to its knees.
...

There are already signs that Russia has been battening down the hatches in anticipation of serious trouble. A record drop of over $100 billion in US treasury securities held by foreign banks in the week ending to March 12 was attributed by analysts to Russia taking its money elsewhere in anticipation of possible asset freezes.


So, it's not that I don't believe you, but I do wonder what sites you're visiting! As I said...

LINKS PLEASE.

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Monday, March 17, 2014 12:28 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


I asked about Western media, you answered about Western governments. So apparently you have the view that the media is tightly state-controlled in all Western countries, like it is in Russia. This is news to me. We're coming at this from radically different worldviews.

Obviously I'm not Signy but I have some history and data that might help.

Way back when was a journalist called I.F. Stone. Back then, he was very skeptical of official sources, and how they might manipulate the media by allowing, or withholding, 'access'. So he never fell in with the White House press corps, or official sources. And in fact, if you look at the 'news' today, it consists of government press releases, official sources, unnamed sources, and media press releases from other organizations like universities, police departments, agencies, etc. You'd have to translate the titles to your country, but how many 'news' items begin --- The White house released information today ..., the US jobs report came out today ..., economic indicators were released today ..., the police have apprehended ..., a major study in the journal ...? Even war correspondents are highly contained - embedded, and foreign correspondents are 'allowed' access only by the grace of the powers that be. How much real reporting - investigative reporting - is there? How much local, knowledgeable reporting do we get about foreign events? What you see are 'reporters' helicoptered in using the locale as a backdrop, reading a pre-packaged script before they get helicoptered off to the next location.

All this goes hand in hand with the rise of media as a profit-driven business. The more reputable, established major commercial stations USED to think of news as a loss-center that was, nevertheless, a public duty. After all, it's expensive to do investigative reporting, to have independent correspondents all around the globe - including and especially in war zones, and to maintain foreign sources.
But that hasn't been true starting during the 70's. At that time there was a major drive to cut costs and improve revenue in the news department. To turn it from a loss-center to profit-center. So several things happened concurrently.
One was a move to make the news cheaper to get. To that end war correspondents and local sources were eliminated, and replaced by official pronouncements, press-releases, newswires, and more recently OTHER NEWS BROADCASTS. The last especially leads to a peculiar 'echo chamber' where you will hear newscasts about OTHER NEWSCASTS. As reported by FOX News today ...
Then there's the drive toward sensationalism. It's I think easily understandable so i won't go into it.
Another effort went in to making the news palatable, to keep people watching, in order to improve the sale price of ad time. There's been a lot of market research about what makes people change the channel or keep watching. Newscasts today are highly scripted, from the lead-in to the sign-off, a carefully balanced experience of gravity, levity, reassurance, and heartwarming anecdote. Plus novelty. Can't forget the novelty. Old news, like Fukushima, isn't 'interesting' even though it's still happening and more consequential every day.
And you have to not create cognitive dissonance in your audience. It makes people very uncomfortable to have their world-views challenged. And so, what you see in the news is often simply ... yourself.

Anyway, I have to go for now. I understand other countries have their public news agencies, unlike the US. But even there is a strong drive to cut costs. Am I right? And a strong dependence on official sources. And growing competition from commercial journalism. And many of the same cultural constraints.

If I have time to go into more detail, I'll get back to this later. But I think you can see that there's a strong confluence of government and monetary/budgetary interests that go in to determining what news story you will see today.



OONJERAH
We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

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Monday, March 17, 2014 12:29 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


KPO- The most similar referendum that I can think of - which was covered VERY differently- was the Falkland Islands sovereignty referendum, 2013.

Quote:

A referendum on political status was held in the Falkland Islands on 10–11 March 2013. The Falkland Islanders were asked whether or not they supported the continuation of their status as an Overseas Territory of the United Kingdom in view of Argentina's call for negotiations on the islands' sovereignty.

On a turnout of 92%, an overwhelming 99.8% voted to remain a British territory, with only three votes against.Had the islanders rejected the continuation of their current status, a second referendum on possible alternatives would have been held. Brad Smith, the leader of the international observer group, announced that the referendum was free and fair and executed in accordance with international standards and international laws.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falkland_Islands_sovereignty_referendum,_
2013


Judging by your responses so far, I'll bet you were all for that one.


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Monday, March 17, 2014 12:44 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


KPO

Actually, I do have a question. Have you never accidentally stumbled into a news hole? -where you KNOW there's a vital piece of information and you just don't see it in the news, where it should be- and wondered?

Or do you assume that if something isn't there - take present day Fukushima as an example - that it must not be important?

I think if you can ask the question 'where did Fukushima go?', and answer it to your satisfaction, you will understand the nature of the 'news' you see.



OONJERAH
We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

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Monday, March 17, 2014 2:14 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:

Anyway, I have to go for now. I understand other countries have their public news agencies, unlike the US. But even there is a strong drive to cut costs. Am I right? And a strong dependence on official sources. And growing competition from commercial journalism. And many of the same cultural constraints.





We've got publically funded stations which are the only news worth watching here.

ABC - best reporting and news about, I still watch little of it. The station produces programs which showcase investigative journalism and will go into a topic in more detail.

ABC is constantly accused of left winged bias by right winged pundits who basically cannot tolerate other POV's than their own. The ABC actually has rather strict reporting guidelines than prevent only one view being heard. I wont say they are without bias, but they do have policies and guidelines that prevent it from being totally biased.

It's late, I can't articulate.

SBS

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Monday, March 17, 2014 9:04 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
The first is that there is very little investigative reporting. "The news" consists almost entirely of press releases by government functionaries at various levels of authority, and repeats from various other media.


Oh if you only knew...

It's even worse than that, cause most of them go completely cheap on it and instead of even the most cursory investigation, just copy/paste press releases and call it a day, something which, sorta-kinda-thankfully, recent events and pranksterism has shown without a single ounce of doubt.

http://www.cracked.com/quick-fixes/4-more-b.s.-news-stories-that-foole
d-whole-damn-internet
/

www.cracked.com/article_17318_7-clearly-fake-news-stories-that-fooled-
mainstream-media.html


http://www.cracked.com/quick-fixes/5-more-b.s.-news-stories-that-foole
d-your-facebook-friends
/

http://www.cracked.com/article_19789_5-clearly-fake-news-stories-that-
fooled-media.html


http://www.cracked.com/quick-fixes/6-clearly-fake-news-stories-that-fo
oled-media-part-16
/
(Part SIXTEEN, mind you, SIXTEEN, IN A ROW!!)

There's a journalism Teacher down at U of M around here who bitchslaps his students with this, EVERY GODDAMN YEAR, by deliberately introducing the most pathetically fuckin RIDICULOUS stories only to have them picked up and amplified by the propaganda echo-chamber that is the lame and sadass excuse for journalism here in the USA, as an example of just how corrupted and co-opted the so called mainstream media is...
(And mind you care to GUESS the worst offender ? I'll save you the trouble - Faux "News", 100% of the time!)

Strange days indeed when fucking PRAVDA (originally a BLATANT propaganda outlet) has better goddamn journalism than anything we have here.



-Frem

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Tuesday, March 18, 2014 1:49 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Well KPO, you have those links yet?

Yanno, the funny thing is, I'm just trying to cut thru the hoopla and bullshit, and some people just seemed determined to wallow in it.


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Tuesday, March 18, 2014 10:37 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


FREM-OMG I SAW some of those stories in the so-called mainstream press! I had a WTF? reaction and just kinda slid past them because they didn't make any sense, but they were at presumably reliable websites like cnn!


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Tuesday, March 18, 2014 8:54 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Just grabbing the top hits from my search engine

Similar to what I did, with similar articles to the ones you posted. You've highlighted some vaguely Russia-sympathetic lines, but they're nothing that couldn't be found in Western media. I've read many similar statements on the BBC over the past weeks.

The most interesting link was the Pakistan article, which I enjoyed. Of the countries I sampled I sensed the greatest anti-NATO vibes from Pakistan, but then I realised that was to be expected. Also, that was an opinion piece. And, it wasn't *that* Russia-sympathetic, the author's admiration for Putin aside. Again, one could find opinion pieces like that in Western media (I've read at least 2 of them).

You make some interesting points about the weakness/laziness/manipulability of the press in the West. But imo not enough to add up to a complete muzzling of the press, which is what you've implied. If it were just a handful of major Western outlets neglecting to show a sensational + newsworthy video, I could buy it. But all of them? In every single country? You need a grand, over-reaching inter-governmental conspiracy theory for that.

RE: The Falklands - A country offering a secession referendum to one of its own islands is not the same as an outside force invading, and then doing it.

I'm sorry for my delay in responding, but I'm quite time constrained at the moment, so I'm not going to go into this discussion too deep.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Tuesday, March 18, 2014 11:41 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

But imo not enough to add up to a complete muzzling of the press, which is what you've implied.
It's not what I've implied, it's what I've OBSERVED. The United States press in particular has been wrong on every single important foreign policy issue that I can think of, for decades.

HOW do I know the press was "wrong"? Because everything they "said" they backed and everything they predicted... failed. Retreating from Vietnam did not lead to dominoes. Deposing Noriega did not stop drug running. Invading Irag did not find WMD. I can point to event after event that were entirely misrepresented by the press. Or you're going to have to demonstrate that the press was actually right on all of those events. Good luck with that.

Maybe you don't find my explanations convincing. That's fine, but you're going to have to find explanations of your own to rationalize the press "errors" of the past several decades!

Oh, as far as the Falklands are concerned, I guess you've forgotten Maggie Thatcher's favorite little war? Which is SO different from Putin!

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Wednesday, March 19, 2014 1:08 PM

ELVISCHRIST



"Behind the coverage of Wahl’s dramatic protest, a cadre of neoconservatives was celebrating a public relations coup. Desperate to revive the Cold War, head off further cuts to the defense budget and restore the legitimacy they lost in the ruins of Iraq, the tightknit group of neoconservative writers and stewards had opened up a new PR front through Wahl’s resignation. And they succeeded with no shortage of help from an ossified media establishment struggling to maintain credibility in an increasingly anarchic online news environment. With isolated skeptics branded as useful idiots for Putin, the scene has been kept clean of neoconservative fingerprints, obscuring their interest in Wahl’s resignation and the broader push to deepen tensions with Russia.
Through interviews with six current RT employees—all Americans with no particular affection for Russian President Vladimir Putin or his policies—and an investigation into the political forces managing the spectacle, a story has emerged that stands in stark contrast to the one advanced by Wahl, her supporters and the mainstream American press.

It is the story, according to former colleagues, of an apolitical, deeply disgruntled employee seeking an exit strategy from a job where, sources say, she was disciplined for unprofessional behavior and had been demoted. Wahl did not return several voice and text messages sent to her cellphone.

At the center of the intrigue is a young neoconservative writer and activist who helped craft Wahl’s strategy and exploit her resignation to propel the agenda of a powerful pro-war lobby in Washington.

The story began at 5:07 p.m. on March 5."

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/how_cold_war-hungry_neocons_stage_
managed_liz_wahls_resignation_20140319



Seems it's not only RT that's versed in how "The Truth Is Made" - the neocons (Geezer included) seem to be every bit as interested in making up their own version of "The Truth"

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Wednesday, March 19, 2014 4:51 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Oh, as far as the Falklands are concerned, I guess you've forgotten Maggie Thatcher's favorite little war? Which is SO different from Putin!

The Falklands have never been settled or controlled by Argentina, except when they invaded in 1982. When Britain throws them out *they* are the outside invaders? It's a dubious comparison.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Wednesday, March 19, 2014 4:53 PM

OONJERAH









====================== :>

The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it. ~George Orwell

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Wednesday, March 19, 2014 10:16 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


KPO

Do you have any recent conclusions about the reliability of the 'news' you access every day?



OONJERAH
We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

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Thursday, March 20, 2014 1:28 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


BUT KPO... you haven't addressed the main point, which is the fact that our press has been "wrong" over and over... and over... for decades. Including misreporting events in Ukraine. How do you explain that? Muzzled press??? Really really stupid reporters??? Gosh, I dunno! You tell me!

Did you see the video in the other post? Have you made any attempt to acquaint yourself with something other than the western press?

Probably not. The truth can be a minor issue, coveniently ignored as long as the echo chamber continues to echo and echo what you're comfortable and familiar with.

"To argue with a man who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead." -- Thomas Paine, The American Crisis No. V (1776)

Quote:

The Falklands have never been settled or controlled by Argentina, except when they invaded in 1982. When Britain throws them out *they* are the outside invaders? It's a dubious comparison.
The Falklanders spoke English, and had a long historic connection with Britain. Let me ask you: What language do Crimeans speak? How long had Crimea been part of Russia? Why don't you go answer those questions before you tell me how dissimilar the situations were?



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Thursday, March 20, 2014 3:54 PM

REAVERFAN


Turns out Liz Wahl was coached by her neocon handlers at Faux.


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Thursday, March 20, 2014 4:09 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

BUT KPO... you haven't addressed the main point, which is the fact that our press has been "wrong" over and over... and over... for decades. Including misreporting events in Ukraine.

Well look, I'm challenging your assertion that the West has a completely government-censored media. To do this I could contest the evidence you've cited, OR I could argue that such a tight control of the media by all Western governments is highly unlikely, and impracticable - and thus there must be another explanation for what you're seeing in the evidence. I've chosen the second approach, since arguing the evidence case by case would be very in depth and attritional (which is not to say I couldn't). I simply don't see motive or mechanism, for the kind of tight inter-government control of the media that you assert you can see in the evidence. That's where conspiracy theories usually fall down for me - motive, mechanism.

Quote:

Did you see the video in the other post? Have you made any attempt to acquaint yourself with something other than the western press?

No, and yes, you know that I have. Think back to earlier in the thread.

Quote:

The Falklanders spoke English, and had a long historic connection with Britain. Let me ask you: What language do Crimeans speak? How long had Crimea been part of Russia? Why don't you go answer those questions before you tell me how dissimilar the situations were?

I'm aware of the similarities. I'm pointing out the dissimilarities, and arguing that they are critical.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Thursday, March 20, 2014 4:15 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
KPO

Do you have any recent conclusions about the reliability of the 'news' you access every day?



OONJERAH
We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.


How recent? Crimea recent?

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Friday, March 21, 2014 12:30 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"I'm challenging your assertion that the West has a completely government-censored media."

I'm certainly not claiming it's government-censored media. It IS government and business compliant. It takes press releases and pr statements and official pronouncements - some would call that propaganda - and uncritically regurgitates it as 'news' without even slowing down to see if it contradicts any earlier statements from the same sources. It trims and fluffs and massages the world story into a narrative that's comfortable and useful and profitable. But at times, yes, the government actively controls the news and leaves a news hole behind. And so a vital fact, which you know to be true, is strangely missing from any media and cannot be found, no matter how hard you look.


"How recent? Crimea recent?"

I was thinking more since the start of this discussion.



OONJERAH
We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

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Friday, March 21, 2014 12:45 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Well look, I'm challenging your assertion that the West has a completely government-censored media.
I never said "completely government censored". As I recall, both I and KIKI pointed out a whole host of factors that could collectively account for the near-perfect record of press failure

1) laziness and/or cost-cutting: getting nearly all news from a government handouts, or from each other;
2) massaging the news as a profit-center: providing pre-digested pablum to the masses, avoiding creating cognitive dissonance in the audience, catering to the brainwashed
3) brainwashed reporters
4) direct editorial control by the parent corporation, such as happens with FOX news, or as happened with Bill Maher
5) government prosecution of sources and
6) interference by security agencies in the normal operations of news media.

The point continues to be that the western press has failed - in an objective sense- to provide informative coverage of important events. Not only failed to provide information, but has consistently and massively passed on DISinformation. I could name about 25 important events from the past few decades where they totally misdirected their readers/listeners. I can name NONE where the MSM has brought useful information to its readers/ listeners. I mean, how does anyone explain that??? That's more than just chance working!

Quote:

Did you see the video in the other post? Have you made any attempt to acquaint yourself with something other than the western press? -SIGNY

No, and yes, you know that I have. Think back to earlier in the thread. -KPO

Second item first: Yes, when challenged, you scanned a few sites. You also misread what was posted. Not a good effort.

As far as the video is concerned, WATCH IT.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57662
You can skip past the man(woman)-on-the-street interviews, but you need to look specifically at

1:00-4:30
9:45-12:00
19:00-21:00
23:25-27:40 (interviews of people dragged off buses and beaten)

Pay close attention to who is aggressing.

Now, I'll tell you something else, and the reason why I'm so pissed off at your complacency, your yawning, bored view - and everyone else's, to be honest. Hubby went thru the 1956 Hungarian uprising as a young child. Protests were initially started by well-meaning students, but a pro-Western/ anti-Russian faction decided to give the process more juice by releasing "political" prisoners... mostly Nazis (nothing "neo" about them, they were dyed-in-the-wool WWII Nazis). These Nazis were brutal people who believed in treating "traitors" by the death of a thousand cuts- literally. Hubby remembers seeing a woman hanging upside down from a lamppost covered in blood. He knew she was still alive because she blinked as he walked past.

"Nazism" isn't just a distant word for Russians and for many older people in Eastern Europe, it is something they know and fear. And the security departments in the new Ukraine government are all occupied by either Svoboda Party members or Right Sector Party members, both of which aspire to their fascist past.

http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57662

I'm not going to discuss this further unless you've watched the video, because otherwise you're just farting out of your mouth.

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Saturday, March 22, 2014 6:31 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

As far as the video is concerned, WATCH IT.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57662


Weak propaganda. Very easy to see through. Nothing tremendously shocking - mostly just people talking. A telling absence of any figures/statistics. E.g. how many riot police were killed, compared to protesters? I could go on.

I'm not really sure what I was supposed to be shocked by. We have to assume that this was the most inflammatory footage that the Kremlin could get its hands on, to paint the protesters in a violent, Nazi light - and it's what? People being forced to get off buses, and lie on the ground, and sing the Ukrainian national anthem, and pick up shards of glass. Oh the horrors.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Saturday, March 22, 2014 7:19 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Weak propaganda.
You would have preferred "strong propaganda"? Yanno, if there has been something more punchy, you would have said it was strong propaganda. No matter what was shown, you would have just dismissed it as propaganda anyway, right?

Quote:

- and it's what? People being forced to get off buses, and lie on the ground, and sing the Ukrainian national anthem, and pick up shards of glass. Oh the horrors.
And beaten, don't forget that. Yanno, KPO, I wonder how you would have reacted if that had been western sympathizers dragged off buses and beaten by Russian thugs. I'm sure you would have been all over yourself about the horrors of it all!

In any case, I directed you past the interviews because they don't provide a verifiable picture.

What I wanted you to see was the protests. No, they're not the "most shocking" videos (there is worse), but it does show the rioters in a different light than in the western press. There were peaceful innocent protesters, but there were also a phalanxes of trained street thugs, neo-Nazis, which the USA and Brussels were all too happy to provide political cover for, pay, and recognize. Again, not in the western press.

So back to the original question: How is is that the western press has so throughly misrepresented everything of importance for the past 40 years or more?

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Sunday, March 23, 2014 1:20 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

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Sunday, March 23, 2014 3:12 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


I am still waiting for a reply from KPO. Since the Ukraine is obviously a hot button that prevents perspective when it comes to evaluating the news process itself, I've been pointing towards Fukushima. KPO - whatever happened to Fukushima? How is it out of the news?



OONJERAH
We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

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Sunday, March 23, 2014 9:51 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

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Sunday, March 23, 2014 9:53 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


KPO said he will be busy.

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Wednesday, March 26, 2014 8:39 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

You would have preferred "strong propaganda"?

Yes. Just because it is propaganda doesn't mean that it can't contain real, strong evidence for the narrative it's pushing.

Quote:

No matter what was shown, you would have just dismissed it as propaganda anyway, right?

RT = pro-Kremlin propaganda. But no, not dismissed, 'watched critically'.

Quote:

And beaten, don't forget that.

I didn't see much beating going on. Or evidence of serious beating (like bruises etc.).

Quote:

Yanno, KPO, I wonder how you would have reacted if that had been western sympathizers dragged off buses and beaten by Russian thugs. I'm sure you would have been all over yourself about the horrors of it all!

I'm sure I've read of incidents of violence like this, and I'm sure that wasn't my reaction.

Quote:

What I wanted you to see was the protests. No, they're not the "most shocking" videos (there is worse), but it does show the rioters in a different light than in the western press. There were peaceful innocent protesters, but there were also a phalanxes of trained street thugs, neo-Nazis

The narrative in Western media was that of a popular revolution with some fringe, hard-core, right-wing, thuggish elements. The RT video showing ONLY these hardline elements, as one would expect them to, does nothing to refute the Western narrative. RT does not have any separate, unique evidence - it just has a different narrative.

Quote:

So back to the original question: How is is that the western press has so throughly misrepresented everything of importance for the past 40 years or more?

I don't think that it has. I can think of occasions where the media has shown an anti-war bias - which seems to be the opposite of what you're claiming. I think you could come up with a litany of cases of media misrepresentation over the last 40 years but I would probably only agree with a few of them, reject others, partially agree on others. That would be a far cry from "thoroughly misrepresented everything of importance for the past 40 years or more". In any case I don't want to go through 50 case studies.

Quote:

KPO - whatever happened to Fukushima? How is it out of the news?

Is anything 'new' happening there?

Quote:

Here is some information about how news was suppressed and distorted re Fukushima:

Can you explain to me what those links are supposed to show?

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:55 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


KPO - whatever happened to Fukushima? How is it out of the news?
Is anything 'new' happening there?



I think the questions are, has it stopped happening, and has it become less important. Perhaps you should go back and revisit the topic.




"To argue with a man who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead."

-- Thomas Paine, The American Crisis No. V (1776)

OONJERAH
We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

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Sunday, March 30, 2014 1:05 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


KPO
Quote:

Is anything 'new' happening there?
How would you know? You don't even know the OLD news, much less the "new" news!

You really think that TEPCO and the Japanese government are going to lay bare the issues... Gosh, we really screwed up. Northeastern Japan is hopelessly contaminated for the next century. One of our reactors blew up and scattered fuel-dust everywhere (that highly radioactive black dust that we've been saying for years is "nothing"). A half-million of our citizens have been internally-contaminated, and the fuel from three of our reactors has drizzled out of the reactor vessel and is boring its way through concrete And all of that water that we've been pouring onto the mess has leaked out like water through a colander. We've contaminated the West Coast of North America with iodine and cesium, and have graduated to hemorrhaging cesium, strontium, and tritium-contaminated water into the Pacific. And we know that we will cause millions in excess cancers and unpredictable ecological damage to the Pacific. And we have no idea what to do about it, other than try a pump up some fraction for treatment using low-wage labor, while we splash it around the site and make it ultimately unmanageable

Yeah, I expect that in the Japanese and American MSM any day now!

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Sunday, March 30, 2014 1:24 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Except their water decontamination system never reached more than 1/10 its anticipated capacity. And it broke down - again - and last I read was permanently shuttered. So now they have no decontamination capacity at all.

Well, since that's not in the news, it must not be important.



"To argue with a man who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead."

-- Thomas Paine, The American Crisis No. V (1776)

OONJERAH
We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

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Tuesday, April 1, 2014 8:38 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Signy, your Fukushima prediction has been noted. Kiki, do you have one of your own?

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Wednesday, April 2, 2014 3:20 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

I think the questions are, has it stopped happening, and has it become less important.

Same goes for the dire situation in Syria, which has also dropped out of the news.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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