REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Time to lower the lifeboats ?

POSTED BY: FREMDFIRMA
UPDATED: Saturday, February 15, 2014 12:43
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Thursday, January 30, 2014 4:35 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Another Republican Abandons the GOP: Ex-Nevada Lt. Gov Sue Wagner Cites Party Extremism
http://www.alternet.org/tea-party-and-right/another-republican-abandon
s-gop-ex-nevada-lt-gov-sue-wagner-cites-party


Startin to look to me like the S.S. GOP is well on it's way to Davy Jones Locker.

-F

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Thursday, January 30, 2014 4:47 PM

BYTEMITE


I dunno. I think there's still way too much red state public support for the tea party message. I think it's just going to keep going that way.

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Thursday, January 30, 2014 5:08 PM

STORYMARK


"Time to lower the lifeboats?"

Can we set them on fire first?




"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Thursday, January 30, 2014 5:51 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I wonder what will be left in the end? Nothing but Ted Cruz clones or something?
Quote:

In what is starting to look like a trend, the Republican Party has pushed yet another member to the breaking point by pulling so hard to the right. Former Nevada Lt. Governor Sue Wagner announced earlier this week that she has left the Republican Party, citing irreconcilable changes to the party’s mission statement and general ethos.

“It’s grown so conservative and tea-party oriented, and I just can’t buy into that,” Wagner told the Reno Gazette Journal. “I’ve left the Republican Party, and it’s left me at the same time.”

Wagner’s found herself at odds with the party when she refused to endorse Republican Senate candidate Sharron Angles due to her “extreme” views on abortion. Now, Wagner says, the party has taken a turn that has all but made her moderate ideology obsolete.



Well, there you go; anyone who didn't wholeheartedly support Angles must OBVSIOULY be The Enemy!

They're dropping like flies:
Quote:

Gay political activist and longtime Republican, Jimmy LaSalvia, did not merely leave the GOP last week. He loudly denounced his former party for its "culture of intolerance" and predicted it will never "win another Presidential election."

LaSalvia, who founded GOProud, and now plans to become independent, came to the inescapable conclusion that the party is just hopelessly "out of touch with life in America."

“The changes the Republican Party is implementing really amount to nothing more than lipstick on a pig,” LaSalvia said on Yahoo! and ABC News program Top Line. “It’s a culture of intolerance that I just don’t think any amount of policy changes can fix.”

The 2012 election that sealed the deal for LaSalvia.

“It was the Romney campaign that really got me to understand just how severe the problem is,” LaSalvia told Top Line. “And after [that], I just thought, ‘I don’t know if [the GOP] will ever win another Presidential election again.’”

His analysis was as practical as it was brutal. “The object of political parties is to win elections, and I’ve determined that the Republicans can never win a national election again, and so at that point, what’s the point?” While LaSalvia still identifies as a conservative, he feels he won't be alone as an independent. http://www.alternet.org/veteran-gay-conservative-activist-leaves-gop-c
alls-party-hopelessly-out-touch




Well, hell, no surprise there, either. He's gay; obviously he was a "liberal plant" all along, right?


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Thursday, January 30, 2014 5:55 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I think this guy put it pretty well:
Quote:

The Cry of the True Republican

I AM a genetic Republican. Five generations of Tafts have served our nation as unwaveringly stalwart Republicans, from Alphonso Taft, who served as attorney general in the late 19th century, through William Howard Taft, who not only was the only person to be both president of the United States and chief justice of the United States but also served as the chief civil administrator of the Philippines and secretary of war, to my cousin, Robert Taft, a two-term governor of Ohio.

Throughout my family’s more than 170-year legacy of public service, Republicans have represented the voice of fiscal conservatism. Republicans have been the adults in the room. Yet somehow the current generation of party activists has managed to do what no previous Republicans have been able to do — position the Democratic Party as the agents of fiscal responsibility.

(Speaking of Ted Cruz)This recent display of bomb-throwing obstructionism by Republicans in Congress evokes another painful, historically embarrassing chapter in the Republican Party — that of Senator Joseph McCarthy....Senator McCarthy was brought up short during the questioning of the United States Army’s chief counsel, Joseph N. Welch, who at one point demanded the senator’s attention, then said: “Until this moment, Senator, I think I never really gauged your cruelty or your recklessness.” He later added: “Have you no sense of decency, sir? At long last, have you left no sense of decency?”

Watching the Republican Party use the full faith and credit of the United States to try to roll back Obamacare, watching its members threaten not to raise the debt limit — which Warren Buffett rightly called a “political weapon of mass destruction” — to repeal a tax on medical devices, I so wanted to ask a similar question: “Have you no sense of responsibility? At long last, have you left no sense of responsibility?”

There is more than a passing similarity between Joseph McCarthy and Ted Cruz, between McCarthyism and the Tea Party movement. The Republican Party survived McCarthyism because, ultimately, its excesses caused it to burn out. And eventually party elders in the mold of my grandfather were able to realign the party with its brand promise: The Republican Party is (or should be) the Stewardship Party. The Republican brand is (or should be) about responsible behavior. The Republican party is (or should be) at long last, about decency.

What a long way we have yet to go. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/23/opinion/the-cry-of-the-true-republic
an.html?_r=0





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Thursday, January 30, 2014 6:02 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


And this one makes some good points, too:
Quote:

I know many folks who were staunch Republicans who simply cannot be a part of the current GOP with the way its tactics and tone seem influenced by conservative talk show hosts and Tea Party members. To be sure, they have their strong proponents on the internet. Plus: current conservatives have lost the ability to communicate or discuss ideas. Lightning strikes more often than the thoughtful emails I get from conservative Republicans who disagree with TMV posts, my Cagle columns or articles in The Week. They are all screaming, yelling, and name calling. He who disagrees is an enemy, ill-intentioned, part of a conspiracy, dumb — not exactly the way to change the mind of someone with whom you disagree. But it seems largely about going on the attack against those who see things differently, not trying to make them agree.

Plus: on a national tour two years ago where I drove 49,000 miles across the country it was jarring how many people I met who were Republicans who were turned off by the tone of the current incarnation of their party and they word they used often was “extremist.” Many didn’t like the Democrats at all but they felt they had lost their party to a segment that had once been ONE segment of the party — not the party that called the shots.

And then there is the obvious: conservatives on talk radio, on cable, on Internet political sites make no attempt to hide the contempt and disdain they feel for those who are moderates or who are conservatives who believe in trying to reach some compromises, no matter how small. They’ve all but said “Get the hell out of our party” — and some Republicans who aren’t fond of Democrats are now doing just that.

And there’s little sign that the hard-liners will change their tune as they opt for a smaller tent with an ideological bouncer scrutinizing the crowd, looking for people to throw out of the tent. http://themoderatevoice.com/188227/non-tea-party-republicans-leaving-t
he-gop/#9mOjU7S8dqYmJ9Wv.99





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Thursday, January 30, 2014 6:10 PM

WHOZIT


Quote:

Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:

Another Republican Abandons the GOP: Ex-Nevada Lt. Gov Sue Wagner Cites Party Extremism
http://www.alternet.org/tea-party-and-right/another-republican-abandon
s-gop-ex-nevada-lt-gov-sue-wagner-cites-party


Startin to look to me like the S.S. GOP is well on it's way to Davy Jones Locker.

-F



OH MY GOD THIS IS PROOF THAT IT'S ALLLLL OVER!! Way to go Fremmey, I give up. I'm going to become a whiney lying stupid fucking liberal. You win, I'm a dimwit like you now...duh.

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Friday, January 31, 2014 1:31 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


Saw an interview with her and she has become an Independent. She admittedly considered herself a liberal conservative within the GOP. She, along with others, has become disillusioned with the direction of the GOP leadership.

They, along with several Dems, have no balls.

But, to get back to her, she impressed me as an old school republican.
Interesting lady.


SGG

Quote:

Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:

Another Republican Abandons the GOP: Ex-Nevada Lt. Gov Sue Wagner Cites Party Extremism
http://www.alternet.org/tea-party-and-right/another-republican-abandon
s-gop-ex-nevada-lt-gov-sue-wagner-cites-party


Startin to look to me like the S.S. GOP is well on it's way to Davy Jones Locker.

-F


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Friday, January 31, 2014 9:32 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I'd like to have heard that interview. Hearing/reading the ones that still make sense makes me feel better; I just wish they'd get their shit together and get to work.


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Friday, January 31, 2014 12:02 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by whozit:
I'm going to become a whiney lying stupid fucking liberal.

Good for you! Whiny lying stupid fucking Liberals are always preferable to whiny lying stupid fucking Neo-Conservatives!

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Friday, January 31, 2014 12:05 PM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by whozit:
I'm going to become a whiney lying stupid fucking liberal. You win, I'm a dimwit like you now...duh.



Boy, you'd have to have your intelligence magnified by a factor of a thousand to even look Frem in the eye. You are the village idiot.




"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Friday, January 31, 2014 1:25 PM

ELVISCHRIST


Quote:

Originally posted by whozit:

You win, I'm a dimwit like you now...duh.




Don't sell yourself short. You're a dimwit like nobody else on earth!

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Tuesday, February 4, 2014 6:22 PM

CANTTAKESKY


Stopped by to see how everyone is. I see everyone is just about the same.

Well, it was nice to see ya.

CTS

-----

Disobedience is not an issue if obedience is not the goal.

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Tuesday, February 4, 2014 6:30 PM

WHOZIT


Rep, Robert Andrews (D) New Jersey has resigned over corruption charges, that's bad right?

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Wednesday, February 5, 2014 1:55 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


You may be able to pick it up online. She was on the Rachel Maddow show, I believe.


SGG


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
I'd like to have heard that interview. Hearing/reading the ones that still make sense makes me feel better; I just wish they'd get their shit together and get to work.



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Wednesday, February 5, 2014 9:55 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


CTTS, I MISS YOU! Along with all the other saner posters who have given up on us. I understand, I just haven't been able to kick the addiction...yet.

Thanx Shiny, I'll check it out.


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Saturday, February 8, 2014 11:12 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Glug, Glug, Glug...

8 Former Republicans Who Ditched the Extremist GOP
Several politicians have decided the GOP is too extreme, too intolerant and too cringe-inducing to bother with.
http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/8-former-republicans-who-dit
ched-extremist-gop?paging=off¤t_page=1


So, does Chris Christie count as an iceberg ?

-F

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Sunday, February 9, 2014 1:13 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


interesting article

Of course I understand the objections of gays and lesbians, Hispanics and women, non x-tians and agnostics to the republican party. The thing I wonder about is not why they left, but how could they stay so long in a party that repudiates their existence. But there are those who left - and slammed the door loudly as they went - that I honestly didn't think existed at this point. Conservative, white, straight, x-tian males of means ... who are honorable.

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Sunday, February 9, 2014 10:33 AM

REAVERFAN


Quote:

OH MY GOD THIS IS PROOF THAT IT'S ALLLLL OVER!! Way to go Fremmey, I give up. I'm going to become a whiney lying stupid fucking liberal. You win, I'm a dimwit like you now...duh.
As opposed to a whiny, lying stupid fucking conservative?

Really? We don't need you. Liberals are the smart, honest sort.

The GOP is fucked because there are only so many rich, white, selfish people who think Ayn Rand wrote anything worth reading, and fewer and fewer poor white hicks dumb enough to vote against their own interests.

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Sunday, February 9, 2014 12:30 PM

WISHIMAY


Quote:

Originally posted by reaverfan:


The GOP is fucked because there are only so many rich, white, selfish people who think Ayn Rand wrote anything worth reading



There is a music video that has Summer Glau and she has a quote from her tattooed on her side. Dunno if it was real or not. Jus' sayin'.

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Sunday, February 9, 2014 2:35 PM

REAVERFAN


I'm sure it's fake. Summer's not dumb.

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Sunday, February 9, 2014 2:56 PM

WISHIMAY


I dunno, she always seemed odd to me. And she's a ballet dancer/actress that's not exactly rocket science.

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Thursday, February 13, 2014 11:21 PM

CANTTAKESKY


Thanks for missing me, Niki. You're the only one. :)

Last time I was here, I wasn't so sane. I'm better now.

CTS

-----

Disobedience is not an issue if obedience is not the goal.

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Friday, February 14, 2014 8:33 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by Wishimay:
Quote:

Originally posted by reaverfan:

The GOP is fucked because there are only so many rich, white, selfish people who think Ayn Rand wrote anything worth reading



There is a music video that has Summer Glau and she has a quote from her tattooed on her side. Dunno if it was real or not. Jus' sayin'.

There is a tattoo in the video at 1:05, but it is not on Summer.
Summer Glau's "Long Hot Summer" featuring Keith Urban



"I swear by my life and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine." - John Galt http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Atlas_Shrugged

Do Republicans get Ayn Rand tattoos to show to Libertarians?

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Friday, February 14, 2014 10:12 AM

WISHIMAY


Ah, yer right...I never watched the whole video.

Something about Keith Urban...He's like the elevator music of country music.

Everything is within two octaves and you'd need a microscope to find the climax of his songs.

Puts me to sleep, in that bad way...

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Friday, February 14, 2014 11:47 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


So, when will liberals dump the Democratic Party en masse? Because despite the fact that there are some very good Dems in the Dem party, the leadership (President, party officials, many members of Congress, and a number of governors and mayors) stand for.... nothing, really. Keeping their chairs occupied. Not offending TPTB. Ready and willing to vote for any damn fool thing that feeds the rich or takes away your freedom. Just sayin'


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Friday, February 14, 2014 12:44 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
So, when will liberals dump the Democratic Party en masse? Because despite the fact that there are some very good Dems in the Dem party, the leadership (President, party officials, many members of Congress, and a number of governors and mayors) stand for.... nothing, really. Keeping their chairs occupied. Not offending TPTB. Ready and willing to vote for any damn fool thing that feeds the rich or takes away your freedom. Just sayin'

You see the very same thing in science: "Despite the unrivaled empirical success of quantum theory, the very suggestion that it may be literally true as a description is still greeted with cynicism, incomprehension, and even anger." - David Deutsch

Despite the empirical success of a Democrat's principles over a rival Republican's, the Democrats just can't stand firm against the cynicism, incomprehension and anger directed toward their principles. The Democrats lack all conviction, while the Republicans are full of passionate intensity, especially Senator Ted Cruz from Texas.

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Friday, February 14, 2014 1:04 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Where is the "empirical success"?

Guantanamo = still open.
NSA = busier than ever!
Stock market = floating on a sea of cheap money.
Jobs = still nonexistent.
Money = flowing freely to the banks. Ex-homeowners = out on the street.
Winding down our wars = with time out to break Libya, Syria, and the Ukraine.
Trans Pacific Partnership (TPP) = a Presidential favorite!


Seriously???

I can count the empirical Democratic success on the fingers of less than one hand:

The ACA = possibly "better than nothing", but just barely.
Opening negotiations with Iran = may represent the REAL "pivot" in our foreign relations but too soon to tell whether this represents a real break with Saudi Arabia and its Al Qaida connections.

I can also point to the withering of the American Petrodollar as the world reserve currency. Not the Dem's fault- this was precipitated by Bush's financial collapse of 2008, when the Chinese realized they were yoked to irrational capitalism- but not handled well by the Fed or Obama.

So, like I asked: What empirical successes?

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Friday, February 14, 2014 1:56 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Where is the "empirical success"?

Seriously???

So, like I asked: What empirical successes?

More like the contrast between Hoover and FDR. Or Bush vs Clinton. Or Ignorance vs Competence. It is sad to say that Obama knows better but is a wuss and Republicans are very forceful about keeping things the way Bush left them.

Occasionally the Democrats will do something that the Republicans strongly oppose, such as saving GM from bankruptcy, but pretty soon, when the crisis has past, the Democrats stop defending interference with the marketplace because the Republicans get so very, very angry and start shouting about communism, socialism and stuff like that. http://www.forbes.com/sites/danbigman/2013/10/30/how-general-motors-wa
s-really-saved-the-untold-true-story-of-the-most-important-bankruptcy-in-u-s-history
/

I forgot about how Dick Cheney & Donald Rumsfeld were pro-torture, but Obama can't put them on trial because that is too disruptive. http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2014/02/13/dick-cheney-has-no-regrets-c
td
/

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Friday, February 14, 2014 2:14 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


It's not that Dems have left good things undone, having been prevented from doing good works by those nasty troglodyte Republicans.

Democrats have been pushing for and achieving regressive policies for a long time: Clinton and NAFTA (the "giant sucking sound" which destroyed about 800,000 American jobs), Don't Ask Don't Tell (DODT), Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA), Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA), Commodities Futures Modernization Act (which brought us Enron), welfare "reform", and rescinding the Glass Steagall Act (which helped bring about the 2008 financial collapse). In Catholic terms, these would be sins of commission -not sins of omission, as you imply. And all of the blame belongs where it belongs... on Clinton and the Blue Dog Dems.*

Similarly, nobody forced Obama to go into overdrive on NSA spying and drone "kill lists", interfering in the Middle East, prosecuting more whistleblowers than all other Presidents combined, pushing for the TPP fast-track, and taking the healthcare public option off the table. We would have been better off if he had left those things alone. Whatever blame or credit is attached goes solely to him - not to the GOP.

*Clinton did ONE GOOD THING: he raised the minimum wage. Apparently we are bought rather cheaply, because despite all of the OTHER things that he did which brought us misery in the long-run, we were ecstatic with his short-term goodies and happy to vote him in again.


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Friday, February 14, 2014 3:47 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
It's not that Dems have left good things undone, having been prevented from doing good works by those nasty troglodyte Republicans.

Democrats have been pushing for and achieving regressive policies for a long time:

How about this hypothesis? Elected Republicans, compared to elected Democrats, are masters of politics & fraud and Democrats, both voters and the elected, are gullible?

Ancient example: Lincoln, in his second national election, ran as the candidate of the National Union Party. The temporary name was used to attract Democrats and Border State Unionists who would not vote for the Republican Party. That is genius to attract votes by changing your name. Obama, Clinton and elected Democrats attract votes by changing their principles, not their name. That is not genius. I can understand why Republicans mock Obama's intelligence. He's not as smart as elected Democrats think. Neither are Bill or Hillary Clinton.

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Friday, February 14, 2014 4:28 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Elected Democrats are NOT gullible. Here's one example:

There was a vigorous discussion about NAFTA before the Presidential election, if you recall, propelled by the very viable third-party campaign of Ross Perot whose memorable phrase "giant sucking sound" accurately described the effect of NAFTA on American jobs. Perot's campaign was torpedoed by dirty tricks,

Quote:

THE 1992 CAMPAIGN: The Overview; PEROT SAYS HE QUIT IN JULY TO THWART G.O.P. 'DIRTY TRICKS'

http://www.nytimes.com/1992/10/26/us/1992-campaign-overview-perot-says
-he-quit-july-thwart-gop-dirty-tricks.html


of the kind he was all-too familiar with, since he himself played international dirty tricks
Quote:

... Perot organized and sponsored their rescue [from Iran]. The rescue team was led by retired U.S. Army Special Forces Colonel Arthur D. "Bull" Simons. When the team was unable to find a way to extract their two prisoners, they decided to wait for a mob of pro-Ayatollah revolutionaries to storm the jail and free all 10,000 inmates

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_Perot

Now, all of this was known to Clinton as he assumed the Presidency, but he went ahead and pushed for NAFTA anyway.

And Obama, a Constitutional lecturer, knows about the 4th Amendment better than most, as well as habeas corpus, trial by jury, and all the other protections built into our laws, but that didn't prevent him from acting like King George.

As a politician, unless you have a really strong grassroots campaign which can funnel that $5 from everyone across the USA into YOUR STATE, you have to sell yourself a million ways before you take office. That pretty much winnows out most people with a strong sense of ethics.

The gullibility, I'm afraid to say, is all on the voter's side. Dems voters??? Gullible for the most part. GOP voters? Gullible. Tea partiers? Gullible! There are very few politicians in office who deserve it, but they were voted in anyway.


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Friday, February 14, 2014 5:09 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Y'all DO know imma Anarchist, right?

Just sayin.

-F

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Saturday, February 15, 2014 12:23 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Indeed I do. And a welcome breath of fresh air you are!


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Saturday, February 15, 2014 12:43 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


That was an interesting discussion that I missed while away. Thanks all for bringing it up again.

Signy, while there's a GREAT deal of overlap between democrats and republicans, there are differences. Can you imagine what a McCain (bomb bomb Iran) presidency would have been like? Or a Romney (47%) one? As bad as Obama is, it could always be worse.

The problem is that people vote party, and not choices within party. Or, when the outcome is assured, strategic third party.

But that's b/c, as you say, people are gullible.

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